Chemist or doctor in the room ?

[VinceV1]

I want to use less PG and VG in my mixes. I thought about many solutions. One is Agar. It is possible to make a gel from it. I don't know if I can vape that (a percentage among a regular mix of PG and VG). This is not like gelatin (98% protein). This is mainly fiber, and 1% calcium, 1% iron. It takes 1 teaspoon to make 1 cup of gel from what I read.

 

[VinceV1]

Melt point is 85 C

 

[fratervapor]

IANAD. Given that it's a medium most often used for growing bacterial or fungal cultures I'd worry about contamination.

Even starting with sterile medium (ie, processed in the borosilicate in a pressure canner) the ability for agar to quickly grow unintended microflora is amazing. It is so easy to end up with a spec of dust in there after cooling.

Agar is amazing stuff -- I use it for yeast ranching. But I don't think it would lend itself to vaping.

If you are interested in reducing PG/VG I have seen threads about using distilled water or sterile saline. I made up a tiny batch of 45/45/10 PG/VG/water the other day and it seemed to vape the same.

 

[Whiskey]

Agar
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to be confused with auger (disambiguation) or augur (disambiguation).
For other uses, see Agar (disambiguation).

Culinary usage: Mizu yōkan - a popular Japanese red bean jelly made from agar

Scientific usage: A blood agar plate used to culture bacteria and diagnose infection.
Agar (pronounced /ˈeɪɡɑː/, US /ˈɑːɡər/, "ah-gər") or agar-agar (/ˈeɪɡɑːˈeɪɡɑː/, /ˈɑːɡərˈɑːɡər/, "ah-gər-ah-gər") is a jelly-like substance, obtained from algae.[1] It was discovered in the late 1650s or early 1660s by Mino Tarōzaemon (美濃 太郎左衛門) in Japan, where it is called kanten.

Agar is derived from the polysaccharide agarose, which forms the supporting structure in the cell walls of certain species of algae, and which is released on boiling. These algae are known as agarophytes and belong to the Rhodophyta (red algae) phylum.[2][3]Agar is actually the resulting mixture of two components: the linear polysaccharide agarose, and a heterogeneous mixture of smaller molecules called agaropectin.[4]

Throughout history into modern times, agar has been chiefly used as an ingredient in desserts throughout Asia and also as a solidsubstrate to contain culture media for microbiological work. Agar (agar-agar) can be used as a laxative, an appetite suppressant, avegetarian substitute for gelatin, a thickener for soups, in fruit preserves, ice cream, and other desserts, as a clarifying agent inbrewing, and for sizing paper and fabrics.[5]

The gelling agent in agar is an unbranched polysaccharide obtained from the cell walls of some species of red algae, primarily from the genera Gelidium and Gracilaria. For commercial purposes, it is derived primarily from Gelidium amansii. In chemical terms, agar is a polymer made up of subunits of the sugar galactose.

 

[Whiskey]

5 second google

 

[fratervapor]

5 second google

Right, but I don't think the wiki article addresses OP's interest in vaping it. Unless I am missing something.

 

[Whiskey]

No but it explains what Agar is, to those here who are reading this and have not heard of Agar before, like myself

 

[VinceV1]

IANAD. Given that it's a medium most often used for growing bacterial or fungal cultures I'd worry about contamination.

Even starting with sterile medium (ie, processed in the borosilicate in a pressure canner) the ability for agar to quickly grow unintended microflora is amazing. It is so easy to end up with a spec of dust in there after cooling.

Agar is amazing stuff -- I use it for yeast ranching. But I don't think it would lend itself to vaping.

If you are interested in reducing PG/VG I have seen threads about using distilled water or sterile saline. I made up a tiny batch of 45/45/10 PG/VG/water the other day and it seemed to vape the same.

I already use water. I read that because Agar was not made of protein, it was not appreciated by bacterias like gelatin is. But that not means it is not. I would definitely not vape a 60% Ag mix, even if it would vaporize.

 

[VinceV1]

No but it explains what Agar is, to those here who are reading this and have not heard of Agar before, like myself

Thx for all Agar virgins.

 

[Heabob]

Wasn't somebody here adding small amounts of Agar as a sweetener for mixes?
Maybe @Smoky Blue ?
Memory not so good anymore.

 

[VinceV1]

Wasn't somebody here adding small amounts of Agar as a sweetener for mixes?
Maybe @Smoky Blue ?
Memory not so good anymore.

This is Agave nectar

 

[VinceV1]

And not Agar Nectave

 

[SailCat]

I want to use less PG and VG in my mixes. I thought about many solutions. One is Agar. It is possible to make a gel from it. I don't know if I can vape that (a percentage among a regular mix of PG and VG). This is not like gelatin (98% protein). This is mainly fiber, and 1% calcium, 1% iron. It takes 1 teaspoon to make 1 cup of gel from what I read.

You didn't mention why you want to use something other than these lab and time-tested substances in order to inhale tasty-flavored nicotine.

These strikes me as a wheel that doesn't require re-invention.

 

[Huff-N-Stuff]

gynecologist ??..NO bit I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night..tehehe..sorry, couldn`t resist..

 

[Lost]

I already use water.

So you only want to use agar to thicken the water, correct? That means you'll be buying the powdered form.

Thoughts:
1. You will be removing VG/PG, which you are not sure of, and replacing it with a powder, which no one is sure of.
2. It will severely crust up your coil.
3. You won't be making a smooth-running clear liquid. It will be gloppy. Note I didn't say clumpy. Gloppy. And it will be cloudy.
4. The glop will not flow correctly through your wick.
5. Any time you water down juice, you're increasing the risk of contamination. (I've seen watered-down VG get moldy in a sub-40 degree fridge.)
and
6. If you're going to do this no matter what, even if we suggest that you don't, then be a VU pioneer. Buy some agar and xanthan gum and try both separately. They will both likely incorporate in VG or PG far better than in water. My bet is on VG, which will be a better base anyway.
Get two small bowls, put some VG in each them and add maybe a 1/4 or 1/8 teaspoon of the powders in each. Stir until incorporated, using a sanitized silicone spatula to work out the stubborn micro-clumps of powder. Add some distilled water and aggressively stir/mix/whip/whatever.
Xanthan gum will gel up at room temperature... not sure about agar; can't remember. You will be making multiple batches of each to get the correct ratio of VG : water : powder.
One final obvious suggestion: don't use VG with nic for these tests.

 

[Heabob]

This is Agave nectar

Thanks

 

[VinceV1]

So you only want to use agar to thicken the water, correct? That means you'll be buying the powdered form.

Thoughts:
1. You will be removing VG/PG, which you are not sure of, and replacing it with a powder, which no one is sure of.
2. It will severely crust up your coil.
3. You won't be making a smooth-running clear liquid. It will be gloppy. Note I didn't say clumpy. Gloppy. And it will be cloudy.
4. The glop will not flow correctly through your wick.
5. Any time you water down juice, you're increasing the risk of contamination. (I've seen watered-down VG get moldy in a sub-40 degree fridge.)
and
6. If you're going to do this no matter what, even if we suggest that you don't, then be a VU pioneer. Buy some agar and xanthan gum and try both separately. They will both likely incorporate in VG or PG far better than in water. My bet is on VG, which will be a better base anyway.
Get two small bowls, p in the mixut some VG in each them and add maybe a 1/4 or 1/8 teaspoon of the powders in each. Stir until incorporated, using a sanitized silicone spatula to work out the stubborn micro-clumps of powder. Add some distilled water and aggressively stir/mix/whip/whatever.
Xanthan gum will gel up at room temperature... not sure about agar; can't remember. You will be making multiple batches of each to get the correct ratio of VG : water : powder.
One final obvious suggestion: don't use VG with nic for these tests.

I would make a gel first. The gel is apparently good 1 month at room temp. This gel would be 10-15% max of the final solution. I have no clue about Xanthan. Anyway, I would not vape anything before getting some more advices. Thx for yours.

 

[VinceV1]

You didn't mention why you want to use something other than these lab and time-tested substances in order to inhale tasty-flavored nicotine.

These strikes me as a wheel that doesn't require re-invention.

While I think those substances are GRAS, I'm not sure they are totally inoffensive in the long run. In 20 years, we will know. Both show their limits when used in high concentrations (VG on chest, and PG on throat, in my case). I always thought that a third base at 10% to 25% would achieve the perfect solution. I thought about Aloe Vera gel as well, but it has its own limitation (aloin is not for everyone). It cannot be included in significant amount.

 

[SailCat]

Here ya go; at least this has some use in the community with positive feedback. It's a VG alternative and PG substitute. Or so I've heard. I figure you're gonna experiment in any case, right? Might as well be with something that's actually in use. Compare this to 1,2-Propanediol. There'a link to the MSDS on that page. More information from our friends at Dupont.

Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for your choices or actions. Bur Agar? Seriously?

 

[MrScaryZ]

 

[SailCat]

Your thoughtful and considerate contribution is appreciated as much as always, mrscary.

 

[MrScaryZ]

Your thoughtful and considerate contribution is appreciated as much as always, mrscary.

 

[VinceV1]

Here ya go; at least this has some use in the community with positive feedback. It's a VG alternative and PG substitute. Or so I've heard. I figure you're gonna experiment in any case, right? Might as well be with something that's actually in use. Compare this to 1,2-Propanediol. There'a link to the MSDS on that page. More information from our friends at Dupont.

Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for your choices or actions. Bur Agar? Seriously?

It is made with the help of transgenic bacteria. I will pass on this.

 

[MrScaryZ]

Wow this is as crazy as me going to Concerts in the 80's and taking funny sheets of paper ...Now Im looking around the house wondering if I can vape odd balls things

 

[VinceV1]

agar = not degraded (eaten) by bacteria

* At least certain types.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Wasn't somebody here adding small amounts of Agar as a sweetener for mixes?
Maybe @Smoky Blue ?
Memory not so good anymore.

Me... no... my experiment was agave.. reading up on this real quick..
not something i'd try and use as the op is wanting. stay safe peeps..
it really is not worth risking your lungs..

 

[SailCat]

Me... no... my experiment was agave.. reading up on this real quick..
not something i'd try and use as the op is wanting. stay safe peeps..
it really is not worth risking your lungs..

Good advice, Smoky Blue. My lungs were in the ris zone for over 40 years and I managed to escape virtually unscathed. Vaping spared my breathing apparati!

 

[Heabob]

Me... no... my experiment was agave.. reading up on this real quick..
not something i'd try and use as the op is wanting. stay safe peeps..
it really is not worth risking your lungs..

Yup, that was it Agave, thanks.

 

[5150sick]

Wow this is as crazy as me going to Concerts in the 80's and taking funny sheets of paper ...Now Im looking around the house wondering if I can vape odd balls things

I liked taking enough funny paper that all I could do for the following 8 hours was giggle.

 

[5150sick]

Five Pawns is supposedly coming out with a new line that has no PG or VG and they are using something new.
For people who have problems with PG allergies.
I will check and find out what its called and link you to the post...

 

[MrScaryZ]

Five Pawns is supposedly coming out with a new line that has no PG or VG and they are using something new.
For people who have problems with PG allergies.
I will check and find out what its called and link you to the post...

haha my god its alive

 

[5150sick]

http://fivepawns.com/five-pawns-to-introduce-a-new-line-of-pg-alternative-vapor-liquids/

The new line is a 50/50 blend of vegetable glycerin (VG) and propanediol (PD), an all-natural alternative to PG, which is naturally derived from cornstarch fermented with corn sugar. PD has approval from EcoCert™ (an internationally recognized natural and organic seal) and the Natural Product Association (U.S.‐based natural personal care certification), and is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (USFDA), as well as certified and verified s-GRAS, USDA 100 percent bio‐based, USP‐FCC, Kosher, Halal, and FEMA GRAS. PD offers a natural, non‐irritating alternative to PG.

 

[5150sick]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propanediol


Propanediol may refer to either of three isomeric organic chemical compounds:

• 1,2-Propanediol (Propylene glycol)
• 2,2-Propanediol (an geminal diol)
• 1,3-Propanediol (Trimethylene glycol)
  
  I bet they are going to try to use the last one:
  Trimethylene glycol

 

[SailCat]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propanediol


Propanediol may refer to either of three isomeric organic chemical compounds:

• 1,2-Propanediol (Propylene glycol)
• 2,2-Propanediol (an geminal diol)
• 1,3-Propanediol (Trimethylene glycol)
  
  I bet they are going to try to use the last one:
  Trimethylene glycol

That's the stuff. 1,2-Propanediol (Propylene glycol) is regular PG while 1,3-Propanediol is the replacement for PG, made from veggies so those with PG allergies are using it without problems.

But better ask mrscary to be certain.

 

[VinceV1]

That's the stuff. 1,2-Propanediol (Propylene glycol) is regular PG while 1,3-Propanediol is the replacement for PG, made from veggies so those with PG allergies are using it without problems.

But better ask mrscary to be certain.

But is is from transgenic source apparently

 

[SailCat]

But is is from transgenic source apparently

You mentioned that previously, Vince, bu I don't understand the reference. Perhaps I could send you some of the myriad positive reviews from people like us: real, experienced vapers, all of whom are enjoying this new alternative to PG and doing so in health that's improved because, like us, they no longer suck burning tobacco into their lungs, and that's a goodness!

There's nothing in it for me if you try it or don't but please don't try to discourage others from doing so if it may help even one of them quit cigarettes. Or continue vaping despite a PG alergy and problems inherent with VG. It's discouraging when a new development is made and naysayers condemn it without having all available information.

 

[VinceV1]

You mentioned that previously, Vince, bu I don't understand the reference. Perhaps I could send you some of the myriad positive reviews from people like us: real, experienced vapers, all of whom are enjoying this new alternative to PG and doing so in health that's improved because, like us, they no longer suck burning tobacco into their lungs, and that's a goodness!

There's nothing in it for me if you try it or don't but please don't try to discourage others from doing so if it may help even one of them quit cigarettes. Or continue vaping despite a PG alergy and problems inherent with VG. It's discouraging when a new development is made and naysayers condemn it without having all available information.

Maybe it's good, maybe it's not ... I don't know.

I'm afraid of Mosanto... Maybe I should not, I don't know.

 

[SailCat]

Maybe it's good, maybe it's not ... I don't know.

I'm afraid of Mosanto... Maybe I should not, I don't know.

I sense a broad brush here. I haven't seen Monsanto mentioned in any of the studies I've read. Perhaps you used that company name as reference in a generalization but that, in and of itself would be a misconception, correct?

Please do some research before dismissing a new option which may prove to be a viable alternative to PG.

Let's pull the community together rather than create a rift based on derision. I am grateful you're off the notion of agar. I quite 5150sick below as for a reference to the properties of this new stuff that Five Pawns is using (and I can't imagine thet's risk any additional bad press about their product)..

propanediol (PD), an all-natural alternative to PG, which is naturally derived from cornstarch fermented with corn sugar. PD has approval from EcoCert™ (an internationally recognized natural and organic seal) and the Natural Product Association (U.S.‐based natural personal care certification), and is approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (USFDA), as well as certified and verified s-GRAS, USDA 100 percent bio‐based, USP-FCC, Kosher, Halal, and FEMA GRAS. PD offers a natural, non‐irritating alternative to PG.

You could adopt a 'wait and see' approach to new alternatives as long as you're able to tolerate

(VG on chest, and PG on thoat, in my case)

in which case you could vape 50/50 it would seem. Your concern about the 'Effects in 20 years' must be offset somewhat by the fact you're no longer smoking, the 20- year effect of which we are all too well aware.

Perhaps I should clarify that I have no horse in this race nor do I have any problem using PG or VG. I find the vaping characteristics of VG preferable but dislike the viscosity. That's the only reason for my interest in an alternative.

 

[Heabob]

If it's made from Corn, (or corn syrup), it's Monsanto, which is GMO.
Same thing for Soy and many others.
FDA approved so it must be safe right.

 

[SailCat]

I'm sure you're right, Heabob. Though I can't find any reference to Monsanto, I have a great deal of respect for you personally.

"1,3-Propanediol does not appear to pose a significant hazard via inhalation of either the vapor or a vapor/aerosol mixture."

I'm convinced to try it.

 

[Heabob]

I'm sure you're right, Heabob. Though I can't find any reference to Monsanto, I have a great deal of respect for you personally.

"1,3-Propanediol does not appear to pose a significant hazard via inhalation of either the vapor or a vapor/aerosol mixture."

I'm convinced to try it.

More info might be found under GMO vs Non-GMO.
Monsanto makes a lot of the seed used in farming, genetically altered to be:
Bug proof, poison proof, etc., to improve crop yields.
As an example, someone had 2 bags of corn stored in their garage.
1 bag was organic and 1 bag was GMO.
The mice ate all the organic and left the other.
May or may not be a true story but I found it interesting.
But anyhow, the veggies of today are nothing like the veggies were long ago.

It's probably not any better or worse than the regular PG we use.
After 50-100 more years they may have a better idea of the long term effects from vaping, (and eating GMO food).

 

[SailCat]

Jeebus, Bob. You're gonna have people thinking this new product has been genetically altered for one or the other of the purposes you mentioned.

I hope those folks who suffer PG allergies or have problems with VG find an alternative. Hopefully it will be something to which you (and others) won't find one reason or another that it's objectionable. Until then, I'll try human testing 1,3-Propanediol as have many others.

It's probably not any better or worse than the regular PG we use.

Probably so, my friend. Best always!

 

[Heabob]

I haven't heard much about it being used for vaping yet, or any reviews.
Maybe you could link some of the reviews for me to read about.

I'm more curious to find out if it carries flavor any better or worse than PG.
Or other related vaping issues like thickness, sweetness, vapor production, cost, availability, etc.

It's funny because I vape all the flavors with the baddies and wouldn't be without them.
But then, I use the Coconut based VG rather than the SOY based GMO stuff out of health concerns?
Go figure.

If your a health nut you shouldn't be vaping or smoking...

 

[SailCat]

I haven't heard much about it being used for vaping yet, or any reviews.
Maybe you could link some of the reviews for me to read about.

I'm more curious to find out if it carries flavor any better or worse than PG.
Or other related vaping issues like thickness, sweetness, vapor production, cost, availability, etc.

It's funny because I vape all the flavors with the baddies and wouldn't be without them.
But then, I use the Coconut based VG rather than the SOY based GMO stuff out of health concerns?
Go figure.

If your a health nut you shouldn't be vaping or smoking...

Amen to that and I assure you, the kind of nut I am is not health.

You ain't alone, buddy. Vapers are an interesting lot. I'll round up some info for ya but you're right; no one has heard much about it 'cause it's the New Thing. As you said, it could be OK or not, but it does look promising.

My only motivation is concern for those who have problems with other carriers.. 'Sounds selfless, huh. I dunno, I'm no do-gooder but I have no problems myself with PG or VG. As I re-think it, I think my real motivation is plain ol' curiosity ... and I like knowing stuff.