FDA Says Nicotine-Free E-Liquids Are Tobacco Products in 'Certain Circumstances'

[mattdarat]

http://reason.com/blog/2016/08/19/fda-will-regulate-nicotine-free-e-liquid

Even the FDA has no idea what its regulating.

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[KDodds]

Yep. Monty Python or Douglas Adams could not have written a better piece of farcical, anti-bureaucratic fiction. Unfortunately, this isn't even fiction, it's reality.

 

[AndriaD]

I still can't grok how all these presumably well-educated people grew to adulthood having never even HEARD OF The Emperor's New Clothes.

Andria

 

[RatRacer]

They used such wide, broad defining language, that they could twist it to label a lawnmower as a tobacco product.

 

[mattdarat]

Precisely why I tell everyone brand it as something else not a vaping proponent or ENDS device. Liquid is going to be the one sticking point but impossible to make reasonable legislation.

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[MercuryVaper]

They used such wide, broad defining language, that they could twist it to label a lawnmower as a tobacco product.

I guess your right. I strap diy bottles to the blades for a good shake

 

[RatRacer]

I guess your right. I strap diy bottles to the blades for a good shake

Nah, the will just create a centrifuge, separating your VG PG and nic.
Just duct tape the bottle to the deck...

 

[5150sick]

Precisely why I tell everyone brand it as something else not a vaping proponent or ENDS device. Liquid is going to be the one sticking point but impossible to make reasonable legislation.

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Sell it as sex lube

There could be Phillip Rocke Anal Lube and as long as it's zero nic what the fuck are they going to do about it?

 

[KDodds]

So let's get this straight, I can't oppose the FDA in court if they have not determined that my product is a tobacco product, but they refuse to define exactly what constitutes a tobacco product, and they refuse to deny or acknowledge that my product is a tobacco product? Great, so the USPS flat rate boxes my batteries come in could be "deemed" tobacco products on a whim? By that logic, top soil is a tobacco product, glass bottles are tobacco products, anything used to get nicotine or nicotine-free products to a potential client are potentially tobacco products, the cars used by individuals in the industry and in the delivery, the clothes they wear to work, the computers they use to calculate and store recipes, the pencils they use to jot down experiments, all tobacco products. And yes, the "deeming regs" ARE that vague. And the FDA will not reveal what they do or do not consider a "tobacco product" until you pay them to answer that question?

Yep.

 

[MercuryVaper]

Just giving themselves a little wiggle room.

 

[AndriaD]

So let's get this straight, I can't oppose the FDA in court if they have not determined that my product is a tobacco product, but they refuse to define exactly what constitutes a tobacco product, and they refuse to deny or acknowledge that my product is a tobacco product? Great, so the USPS flat rate boxes my batteries come in could be "deemed" tobacco products on a whim? By that logic, top soil is a tobacco product, glass bottles are tobacco products, anything used to get nicotine or nicotine-free products to a potential client are potentially tobacco products, the cars used by individuals in the industry and in the delivery, the clothes they wear to work, the computers they use to calculate and store recipes, the pencils they use to jot down experiments, all tobacco products. And yes, the "deeming regs" ARE that vague. And the FDA will not reveal what they do or do not consider a "tobacco product" until you pay them to answer that question?

Yep.

Yeah... but don't forget the various lawsuits; I seriously doubt that a court is going to let them get away with such foolishness. Courts want everything spelled out, to the fucking letter, in triplicate, with circles and arrows on the back.

Andria

 

[mattdarat]

Just giving themselves a little wiggle room.

Not sure if pun at @5150sick's comment or fda regs lmao.

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[mattdarat]

Yeah... but don't forget the various lawsuits; I seriously doubt that a court is going to let them get away with such foolishness. Courts want everything spelled out, to the fucking letter, in triplicate, with circles and arrows on the back.

Andria

Depends on the court but I do believe in this instance the court will judge on the side of realistic regulation.

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[KDodds]

Yeah... but don't forget the various lawsuits; I seriously doubt that a court is going to let them get away with such foolishness. Courts want everything spelled out, to the fucking letter, in triplicate, with circles and arrows on the back.

Andria

True, but it's kind of like expecting little brother to rat out big brother for murdering the guy who was out-competing their Uncle Bob's fruit stand. Sure, if little brother has scruples, morals, ethics, it can happen. But...

 

[AndriaD]

True, but it's kind of like expecting little brother to rat out big brother for murdering the guy who was out-competing their Uncle Bob's fruit stand. Sure, if little brother has scruples, morals, ethics, it can happen. But...

Well, a court back in 2009 didn't let 'em get away with seizing vape stuff, trying to ban it then as "medical devices." In fact, THAT judge is what landed us in this "tobacco product" debacle, so I'd say the courts have a lot of apologizing to do to vapers!

I agree with mattdarat, I think courts will try to go for what is realistic, because the regs as they currently stand aren't realistic by any stretch of anyone's imagination -- it wouldn't surprise me if a judge didn't say something like, "well, you want to regulate them so you can study and understand them... why don't you go study them for a while until you DO understand them, and try this again in some form that makes one iota of sense -- till then, DISMISSED!"

Andria

 

[RatRacer]

I agree with mattdarat, I think courts will try to go for what is realistic, because the regs as they currently stand aren't realistic by any stretch of anyone's imagination -- it wouldn't surprise me if a judge didn't say something like, "well, you want to regulate them so you can study and understand them... why don't you go study them for a while until you DO understand them, and try this again in some form that makes one iota of sense -- till then, DISMISSED!"

 

[5150sick]

We are going to start seeing vendors that only sell one item.
For instance:

Battery vendor = only sells batteries
Mod vendor = no attys or juice just mods only
Atty vendor = RDAs, RTa's, Tanks and pre made coils only
Zero Nic juice vendor = Certified Zero Nic eliquid only nothing else.
Etc... Etc...

That way they can't say that they are meant to be used together to form a tobacco product.

The FDA is trying to pull the "Voltron approach"
Even though the voltron lions (mods, atties, juice, etc...) are 5 separate entities they all come together to form voltron (the ecig)

But what if the lions never met? (parts sold separately)
They would never come together to form voltron. (a tobacco product)

BTW I want to trademark the term "Voltron Approach" since I just made it up and it sounds kind of cool.

So: Voltron Approach™

 

[mattdarat]

We are going to start seeing vendors that only sell one item.
For instance:

Battery vendor = only sells batteries
Mod vendor = no attys or juice just mods only
Atty vendor = RDAs, RTa's, Tanks and pre made coils only
Zero Nic juice vendor = Certified Zero Nic eliquid only nothing else.
Etc... Etc...

That way they can't say that they are meant to be used together to form a tobacco product.

The FDA is trying to pull the "Voltron approach"
Even though the voltron lions (mods, atties, juice, etc...) are 5 separate entities they all come together to form voltron (the ecig)

But what if the lions never met? (parts sold separately)
They would never come together to form voltron. (a tobacco product)

BTW I want to trademark the term "Voltron Approach" since I just made it up and it sounds kind of cool.

So: Voltron Approach™

This sounds like what they are doing. Don't make it an ecig and the can't call it one. Believe it or not i think this benefits us. The FDA is being mandated to take action by the people against tobacco so they put a ridiculous law in so it can be easily circumvented. The more I read it the more I believe that is what they are doing. I could be wrong 5150sick you know I have been wrong lol

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[RatRacer]

Lol! Voltron approach. Classic.

So, is each vendor segment going to have a color coded lion icon defining their vape provisions, like a secret rune?

 

[KDodds]

Love Voltron Approach, and it's certainly an apt description. It's worse than that though in that substitutable parts are also "tobacco products". Because the tank could contain nicotine, then anything you put in it, even pure VG and nothing else, according to the deeming reg specifications, becomes a tobacco product. Clean with Everclear? Everclear is a tobacco product. Put 18650s in a battery case? The battery case is a tobacco product. This open ended classification, eventually, makes absolutely everything a tobacco product, as it stands. The only exceptions are those that the FDA will possibly determine to be exceptions, in the future, if you pay to have them decide whether or not your car that you drive to the vape shop is a tobacco product. It's a Voltron approach with Six Degrees of Stupidity attached.

 

[AndriaD]

Love Voltron Approach, and it's certainly an apt description. It's worse than that though in that substitutable parts are also "tobacco products". Because the tank could contain nicotine, then anything you put in it, even pure VG and nothing else, according to the deeming reg specifications, becomes a tobacco product. Clean with Everclear? Everclear is a tobacco product. Put 18650s in a battery case? The battery case is a tobacco product. This open ended classification, eventually, makes absolutely everything a tobacco product, as it stands. The only exceptions are those that the FDA will possibly determine to be exceptions, in the future, if you pay to have them decide whether or not your car that you drive to the vape shop is a tobacco product. It's a Voltron approach with Six Degrees of Stupidity attached.

A lot more than six!!!

Andria

 

[lordmage]

Love Voltron Approach, and it's certainly an apt description. It's worse than that though in that substitutable parts are also "tobacco products". Because the tank could contain nicotine, then anything you put in it, even pure VG and nothing else, according to the deeming reg specifications, becomes a tobacco product. Clean with Everclear? Everclear is a tobacco product. Put 18650s in a battery case? The battery case is a tobacco product. This open ended classification, eventually, makes absolutely everything a tobacco product, as it stands. The only exceptions are those that the FDA will possibly determine to be exceptions, in the future, if you pay to have them decide whether or not your car that you drive to the vape shop is a tobacco product. It's a Voltron approach with Six Degrees of Stupidity attached.

you're a tobacco product too

 

[KDodds]

you're a tobacco product too

Well, both of my parents were smokers when I was conceived.

 

[BigNasty]

Women vapers have to register as mfg. Since even the FDA has come out and said stuffing cotton in a hole is creating a new device.
No how it actually works but based off their own words it is how they want it to.

 

[KDodds]

Women vapers have to register as mfg. Since even the FDA has come out and said stuffing cotton in a hole is creating a new device.
No how it actually works but based off their own words it is how they want it to.

So that's were new devices come from!

 

[AndriaD]

Women vapers have to register as mfg. Since even the FDA has come out and said stuffing cotton in a hole is creating a new device.
No how it actually works but based off their own words it is how they want it to.

Whew, good thing I'm past menopause; dodged THAT bullet!

Andria

 

[celticluvr]

Women vapers have to register as mfg. Since even the FDA has come out and said stuffing cotton in a hole is creating a new device.
No how it actually works but based off their own words it is how they want it to.

Dammit...

 

[pulsevape]

why not. after all...http://www.mediaite.com/online/meet-the-52-year-old-father-who-identifies-a-6-year-old-girl/

 

[KDodds]

why not. after all...http://www.mediaite.com/online/meet-the-52-year-old-father-who-identifies-a-6-year-old-girl/

I think he works for the FDA.