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Tanker

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I am wanting to get into Super Subohm building, .09 -.05 builds, I have some N90 wire in route, and I have built with it before, above .1ohms, however it's ideal for lower ohms. I have a Ragnarok and VTC4s and am looking at a High Voltage Phantom parallel box. I really do not want to blow my face off, since I have such a nice face, and I'm also pretty partial to my fingers as well. I have a decent working knowledge of Ohms Law, but I am by no means an electrical engineer. Give me your thoughts and why. I posted this in Batteries, because this is really all about Battery safety and possibilities.
Thanks in advance.
 

BigNasty

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On a mech. nothing on the market.
Stupid risks for a possible Darwin award and a face full of fuck.
canadianmain.jpg


Get a temp control mod like a rx200 or a Hohm G2 if you want to play low.
 

Tanker

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On a mech. nothing on the market.
Stupid risks for a possible Darwin award and a face full of fuck.
canadianmain.jpg


Get a temp control mod like a rx200 or a Hohm G2 if you want to play low.
I have an RX200, and a Cuboid. Both limit me to .1 ohm, the Fuchai will drop to .05, but the one I had died after 3 months so I probably won't do that again.
 

BigNasty

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Since you are talking about dead shorting on a mech there is no battery on the market that can safely handle it, THERE are regulated that can.
 

Tanker

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Since you are talking about dead shorting on a mech there is no battery on the market that can safely handle it, THERE are regulated that can.
Not even in Parallel? I was under the impression that parallel mechs were capable, since, in theory, you are doubling the amp output. On my single tube mech, I have pulsed .19, but have tried to not build below .25, which gives the VTC4 about 4% head room @ 3.7v/20amp continuous. I have been playing safe, but I want to build with thicker wire, and A-1 Kanthal ramps up far to slow to be effective, and to keep 21 gauge N90 above .21 ohms I would either need a million wraps far larger than any of my RDAs will handle, or have to Clapton it with 36 Guage A-1. I only ask all of this because the only stupid question is the one that doesn't get asked.
 

Rabbit Slayer

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You are going to have to wait until a real 45A battery is invented if you want to build that low and have any safety room
 

BigNasty

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Not even in Parallel? I was under the impression that parallel mechs were capable, since, in theory, you are doubling the amp output. On my single tube mech, I have pulsed .19, but have tried to not build below .25, which gives the VTC4 about 4% head room @ 3.7v/20amp continuous. I have been playing safe, but I want to build with thicker wire, and A-1 Kanthal ramps up far to slow to be effective, and to keep 21 gauge N90 above .21 ohms I would either need a million wraps far larger than any of my RDAs will handle, or have to Clapton it with 36 Guage A-1. I only ask all of this because the only stupid question is the one that doesn't get asked.
Theory vs. real world is just that.
On paper in a perfect universe then sure it would be a +/- 4% but in real time applications not so much.
 

dr_rox

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Since you are talking about dead shorting on a mech there is no battery on the market that can safely handle it, THERE are regulated that can.

Some people, despite any reasonable advice, will insist on acting on their limited knowledge of something and test natural selection.
Like putting a piece of metal where a fuse was , and then wonder why their car or house burned up.
"It was temporary". "i needed a quick fix". "It fit".


Anyone that does any work with circuits would not put such a ridiculous load on a battery, a virtual short, unless it was the ONLY way to achieve a means to a MacGyver or Mr.T end.... which usually resulted in an explosion, the intended end.
 

BigNasty

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Some people, despite any reasonable advice, will insist on acting on their limited knowledge of something and test natural selection.
Like putting a piece of metal where a fuse was , and then wonder why their car or house burned up.
"It was temporary". "i needed a quick fix". "It fit".


Anyone that does any work with circuits would not put such a ridiculous load on a battery, a virtual short, unless it was the ONLY way to achieve a means to a MacGyver or Mr.T end.... which usually resulted in an explosion, the intended end.
Except the dude who blew his balls off with a 22 in a fuse bank for his truck.
 

JERUS

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I am wanting to get into Super Subohm building, .09 -.05 builds, I have some N90 wire in route, and I have built with it before, above .1ohms, however it's ideal for lower ohms. I have a Ragnarok and VTC4s and am looking at a High Voltage Phantom parallel box. I really do not want to blow my face off, since I have such a nice face, and I'm also pretty partial to my fingers as well. I have a decent working knowledge of Ohms Law, but I am by no means an electrical engineer. Give me your thoughts and why. I posted this in Batteries, because this is really all about Battery safety and possibilities.
Thanks in advance.
Parallel rule: You get 50% of the additional batteries CDR
Ohms Law: V/R = A A* V = W

So 30 amp cells, 45amp limit in dual parallel.

4.2v/45a = .093333

So you're already pushing the general safety rules even entering super subohm territory. However, yes these rules aren't hard laws, we know you won't be getting a full 4.2v, we know we're pulsing not continuously firing so it's not going to blow up the battery if you push it a little...but it's still not totally advisable. And, the 50% rule isn't accurate completely but we know the loss in the system will lean closer to that than 100%. So there is room to ignore the safety precautions people have put out there, but it's doing so at your own risk.

I'd say if you're dead set on doing this with that setup, at the very least I'd suggest LG HB series batteries (HB6 probably) as they're the highest rated batteries there are.

I push a lot of things, but .05Ω... not something I'll do. I have .07Ω builds but I only use them with my triple parallel mod, and even those most of them I try just because I took the time to make them, but then discard them for something safer. The only one that's lasted is my .08Ω big staple coil, everything else I regularly use is .1Ω or above and most above .15Ω. I don't feel the resistance plays into the vape much outside of mechs and even with mechs you can get a great vape without going crazy.
 

Tanker

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Parallel rule: You get 50% of the additional batteries CDR
Ohms Law: V/R = A A* V = W

So 30 amp cells, 45amp limit in dual parallel.

4.2v/45a = .093333

So you're already pushing the general safety rules even entering super subohm territory. However, yes these rules aren't hard laws, we know you won't be getting a full 4.2v, we know we're pulsing not continuously firing so it's not going to blow up the battery if you push it a little...but it's still not totally advisable. And, the 50% rule isn't accurate completely but we know the loss in the system will lean closer to that than 100%. So there is room to ignore the safety precautions people have put out there, but it's doing so at your own risk.

I'd say if you're dead set on doing this with that setup, at the very least I'd suggest LG HB series batteries (HB6 probably) as they're the highest rated batteries there are.

I push a lot of things, but .05Ω... not something I'll do. I have .07Ω builds but I only use them with my triple parallel mod, and even those most of them I try just because I took the time to make them, but then discard them for something safer. The only one that's lasted is my .08Ω big staple coil, everything else I regularly use is .1Ω or above and most above .15Ω. I don't feel the resistance plays into the vape much outside of mechs and even with mechs you can get a great vape without going crazy.
That was very helpful, thank you.
 

robot zombie

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
.07 is way too low for a parallel box. You would want either a triple or quad parallel box for that, but even then, it's more current than you probably want flowing through the circuit. You're looking at resistance low enough to be considered a short.

Theoretically, a good pair of 30A batteries could handle it. It just isn't considered wise because you leave yourself no safety margin. They will fail if anything goes wrong such as a short in the device or a battery giving out. Straining them repeatedly can reduce their capacity and increase overall operating temperature pretty quickly - they can only withstand that for so long... ...and how long is "too long" is impossible to know without taking measurements..

Electrically, there are a lot of variables that you can't account for, as well... ...all sorts of things that would be minute under normal circumstances become a big deal when super-subbing. They're the sorts of things that you won't see in the numbers. Electricity and chemistry can do some funny things when you have a largely unimpeded current flow coming from a lithium battery.

I really doubt that the gains are worth it, either. After a certain point, you're losing a lot of power to battery sag (the more current gets pulled, the more voltage you lose.) The actual wattage you see will be much lower than calculated, meaning that the coil is actually choking for power compared to a smaller, lower-current one, which is receiving more power per unit of mass.

Now, as the voltage drops, current does too (perhaps even to acceptable levels,) but that's no longer the issue. The resistance is so low that calling it a short isn't an exaggeration. The current drops because the battery is actively being being ripped wide open. They aren't meant to toss current without something significantly restricting that current flow in front of them. Things get rather unstable and volatile when your load is too close to the internal resistance of the battery itself.

And that's not to mention that the mass of the coil simply becomes too much for the space it is in - it starts retaining unacceptable amounts of heat. All of that heat has to go somewhere and ideally should move as quickly as possible so that it doesn't accumulate from hit to hit. As the coil grows larger, it takes longer for the heat to dissipate. The bulk of it creeps into your mod, where it stays for a good while.

And that's a factor too. High current isn't the only cause of venting. It's really the heat. Batteries vent when their operating temperatures go beyond a certain point, so pulling a lot of current from batteries in a hot enclosure increases the likelihood of a catastrophic failure. A battery's CDR is largely determined by what temperature is reached with such and such load placed on it. Just below the current level that makes the battery too hot is its max CDR.


There are better ways to get that kind of power, just not with that wire and that mod. Super-subbing is arguably the worst way to go about it because of the risks involved and the performance loss from working your batteries much harder than they're meant to. If you just wanna knock on the door of 200w, a .35 build on a series mod will just get you there for just 25 amps of current, which at least leaves you with SOME headroom. It's a truer 200w than regulated 200w, which are PWM.

Of course, you'll have to use wire that has a higher resistance... ...and a lot more of it. But it will perform much better. With thinner wire, you can squeeze in a ton of surface area for that heat to distribute across and it will have less mass, meaning it heats up AND cools down quicker. It's also more power efficient, meaning the returns you see on each watt will be increased.

If you wanna go stupid high-power, go for a quad-battery series-parallel mod. Two series pairs wired in parallel, meaning double voltage AND double headroom. A well-made one can actually get you beyond where you can get super-subbing and do so safely. You can really go crazy with it. A .2 will yield 350w for 42A. Wouldn't recommend that at all, but the capability is there.

All that being said, I wouldn't recommend using either of those without a good bit of experience and knowledge under your belt. It's important that you know exactly how everything shakes down. Don't take this the wrong way, but if you have to ask these questions, then you probably aren't ready to be messing around with any of this stuff. Stick to what you know for now. That's the golden rule.

I'm glad you asked instead of just going through with it - that was the right thing to do, but that is nonetheless the truth. These things are important to discuss, but talking about it is one thing...

I have an RX200, and a Cuboid. Both limit me to .1 ohm, the Fuchai will drop to .05, but the one I had died after 3 months so I probably won't do that again.
Regulated devices handle current differently. A .1 on a regulated mod doesn't translate to the same battery load as it would on a mech. Regulated mods run in series and use a buck converter to exchange the extra voltage for current. It only draws as much current from the batteries as it needs to generate the wattage going to the coils.

As an example, let's say you're running a .1 @ 150w on a dual battery regulated box. For it to first generate the power, it will pull just shy of 20A @ 8.4v from the batteries. The buck converter then feeds the atty nearly 40A @ 3.9v. It gives the coil the 40A it needs to run at 150w as per ohm's law, but doesn't take current that the batteries can't handle. This is why you can safely super-sub on a regulated box. It's not drawing as much current as it's dishing out.
 
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