Is there an average sag for a 25R or HE4/how low to go?

[conanthewarrior]

Hi everyone.

The past few weeks/couple of months, I have been enjoying my mechanical mods a lot more than previously, and I had a question regarding voltage sag.

I have a new mech, and am very impressed, so will be using it quite a lot.

I use either Samsung 25R's or LG HE4's in my 18650 mechs, and wondered what the typical sag for these given batteries is, if there is a average.

At 0.22 Ohms, which I am using based on amp load with a fresh battery, with no sag involved, which I understand is virtually unavoidable but I like to stay within my batteries CDR.

So, at 0.22, does anyone have any idea what the voltage really is under load in use, I received a Copper JA yesterday that is now my favourite 18650 tube mech due to its performance, ease of setting up and how hard it hits.

I just do not fully know how far the batteries may be sagging from 4.2V, and understand I am very unlikely to be drawing 20A from the battery due to this, but I do like to try and stay safe, and am much more educated in the regulated world, hence my lowest builds being 20A at 4.2V.

Should I stick at around 0.22/0.21 for safeties sake, or with sag would a slightly lower build be safe? If not, it is OK due to vapour production and pretty good battery life, which has surprised me, just if I wanted to try something apart from standard Micro/macro coils, the lowest I can safely go with sag included. I have a feeling that where I am may be the lowest for these batteries.

Thanks everyone, Conan.

 

[Lefty]

Use an inline volt meter to measure before and under load to see how much voltage drop you're getting. It's your choice how to use that info.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Use an inline volt meter to measure before and under load to see how much voltage drop you're getting. It's your choice how to use that info.

Thank you-that seems a good idea, after watching a few videos I realise there is no 'standard', it depends on the mod in question.

I will have to get myself one of these inline volt meters-even if it is just to know how much sag under load each device has.

 

[Freejep]

For over a year I vaped at .21 on a full mech same as yourself with dual 25r's...6 weeks ago I altered my ohms to use the knowledge I gained 30 years ago whilst at college studying applied maths,physics and electronics...our text books stated continuous current and overcurrent (that vapers now call pulse) ratings.
We were taught continuous means just that....amp draw without breaks until the cell is dissipated...overcurrent was measured at 5 times the continuous amperage value for a time length of 30 seconds....keeping these figures in mind I fired a .05 ohm 6 coil build for 10 seconds (75 to 85ish amps)...and guess what...no heat at all in the batteries...just like I'd been taught....
I've been vaping this .05 build for 6 weeks now using my "remote wicking" method without incident or warming of the batteries... I'm still on the same cotton from 6 weeks ago too...simply because I can't get burnt hits (cotton never touches the coils)...I experiment with builds and wicking because I'm inquisitive..but I do test everything I can before taking my first draw....my normal vaping method is 1 to 3 second pulses....my batteries measure 4.29v when first inserted and drop 10 hours later to 3.9v when I change them..in this time I go through 7ml of juice to show my style of vaping


This last pic is the same build and same cotton 6 weeks after the second pic using my remote wicking method..and still tastes crisp...so building a little below .21 will be fine for you...just check your batteries aren't getting warm at all

 

[conanthewarrior]

For over a year I vaped at .21 on a full mech same as yourself with dual 25r's...6 weeks ago I altered my ohms to use the knowledge I gained 30 years ago whilst at college studying applied maths,physics and electronics...our text books stated continuous current and overcurrent (that vapers now call pulse) ratings.
We were taught continuous means just that....amp draw without breaks until the cell is dissipated...overcurrent was measured at 5 times the continuous amperage value for a time length of 30 seconds....keeping these figures in mind I fired a .05 ohm 6 coil build for 10 seconds (75 to 85ish amps)...and guess what...no heat at all in the batteries...just like I'd been taught....
I've been vaping this .05 build for 6 weeks now using my "remote wicking" method without incident or warming of the batteries... I'm still on the same cotton from 6 weeks ago too...simply because I can't get burnt hits (cotton never touches the coils)...I experiment with builds and wicking because I'm inquisitive..but I do test everything I can before taking my first draw....my normal vaping method is 1 to 3 second pulses....my batteries measure 4.29v when first inserted and drop 10 hours later to 3.9v when I change them..in this time I go through 7ml of juice to show my style of vaping

View attachment 51891 View attachment 51894 View attachment 51895 View attachment 51896
This last pic is the same build and same cotton 6 weeks after the second pic using my remote wicking method..and still tastes crisp...so building a little below .21 will be fine for you...just check your batteries aren't getting warm at all

Wow, that is definitely low at 0.05! I don't plan myself on going anywhere near this level, my main concern would be the worst happening, such as the fire button becoming depressed, without my knowledge, and the short pulse we use our batteries for ends up being a continuous discharge.

I always take my batteries out of my Mechs when not in use though, and only actually use my mechs at home (I do enjoy them, I just prefer regulated for on the go use out and about with a tank).

0.21 seems to be nice for me, with 24G duals, so I don't think I will need to go lower for my own needs, but it is nice to know that there are people that do, with no issue. It makes me feel better, knowing what I do is not really considered a mad, cloud chasing build, without exceeding my cells CDR (Although I understand we pulse like you say, and it can be much higher for this pulse).

My batteries never get warm, even when used at higher wattage in my regulated mods. (I don't vape all day at high power though, so this may be why I have never noticed any warmth).

I am aware of the 25R's capabilities from its datasheet, that is really pushing the boundaries though-although if you are not experiencing heat, have knowledge like you have stated, and feel comfortable there, I am glad that works for you and you enjoy it .

I gather you are using a dual parallel mech, as you mention pulling your batteries after 10 hours being at 3.9V when you pull them.

The wicking method you are using sounds great too if it has lasted 6 weeks, do you tend to stick to one flavour?

I am interested in the "remote wicking' method, I will have to find out what this is.

Thanks, Conan.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Wow, that is definitely low at 0.05! I don't plan myself on going anywhere near this level, my main concern would be the worst happening, such as the fire button becoming depressed, without my knowledge, and the short pulse we use our batteries for ends up being a continuous discharge.

Exactly! Therein lies the danger. That and folks believing the label on their Fire-fest-ebay-amazon batteries. There are no 80 amp continuous discharge 18650's that have 5,000 mah lol. At .05 a substandard battery will overheat quickly, even just on a long tug. Before my CM 521 died (and went to a better home and found new life) it was indicating .3 - .5 sag depending on battery/mod. Don't know how accurate those things are though.

 

[Freejep]

I like the 80A 5000mah comment...maybe someday lol...Firstly I do not recommend anybody making a .05 build....i did it purely as an experiment to test my remote wicking method to avoid burnt hits in a 6 coil build....the most important factor was using a mech mod with fast battery release(in case of overcurrent problems)...hence I used the incubus twin parallel box with instant battery release at the touch of the side button....
I will not put this .05 build atty on any other mod for safety reasons....



I do stick to my own same diy juice...but when i want to try another flavour i just put a few drops straight onto the coils avoiding the cotton....


And this Conan was my standard .21ohm 24g dual build same as the one you describe that I changed cotton weekly..changed coils every 5 months and used for over a year until I went to remote wicking....I've done a bit of a tutorial on here on how I remote wick....or just Google remote wicking and you'll get to my basic tutorial...have fun

 

[budd77]

I usually vape a 0.12 ohm build with a 25r in a single tube mech. No issues at all. Batteries don't even get warm. This is what I vape on all day every day. I go through at least 20 ml of juice a day. So you can definitely build lower if you want.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

4.2 volts divided by .12 ohms equals 35 amps. The best batteries will do 20 amp continuous draw, and pulse upwards of 30 amps.

 

[budd77]

4.2 volts divided by .12 ohms equals 35 amps. The best batteries will do 20 amp continuous draw, and pulse upwards of 30 amps.

I figure with voltage drop around 30 amps. I have samsung 25r and lg hb2(30 amps continuous) batteries. I can't tell the difference between the 2. Neither of them get warm with this build. Hit the same. Just the 25rs last twice as long. I also have lg hg2 batteries(20amp 3000 mah). I don't go below 0.2 with those. I figure with voltage drop around 20 amps. I don't think the hg2's can handle the higher pulses like a 25r. Mooch's battery tests come in handy.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Yes Mooch is the battery guru/bible. Google search will bring up his tests and recommendations posts. Unfortunately his stuff is "over there". But it should be considered required reading for anyone wanting to use a mechanical mod. For most people, using 4.2v for calculations leaves a little pad in there as opposed to guessing on sag. A cause for concern is counterfeit and/or mis-labled (ridiculously overstated) batteries, I have seen 10 amp batteries labeled and sold as 60 or 80 amp. Always buy your batteries from a trusted and reliable source that tests their products such as Liion Wholesale.

 

[conanthewarrior]

I figure with voltage drop around 30 amps. I have samsung 25r and lg hb2(30 amps continuous) batteries. I can't tell the difference between the 2. Neither of them get warm with this build. Hit the same. Just the 25rs last twice as long. I also have lg hg2 batteries(20amp 3000 mah). I don't go below 0.2 with those. I figure with voltage drop around 20 amps. I don't think the hg2's can handle the higher pulses like a 25r. Mooch's battery tests come in handy.

I don't think the HG2's would be much good as you say, but not just due to pulse ratings, I notice when using my regulated devices that a HG2 sags far more than a 25R, and on a 350J where actual battery voltage is also on screen, voltage does take a huge dive before coming back up to its resting level, same with 30Q's, 25R's and HE4's suffer much less voltage drop.

I gather this is where they are higher capacity, 20A cells. Very good for a lot of applications, but with my mechs I feel best using 25R's or HE4's.

I also believe they do not get warm, I went through a stage of 'maxing out' each new device I bought, and not once did my batteries get remotely warm. This was with regulated devices though, not mechanical mods, although I expect it to still be possible.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Yes Mooch is the battery guru/bible. Google search will bring up his tests and recommendations posts. Unfortunately his stuff is "over there". But it should be considered required reading for anyone wanting to use a mechanical mod. For most people, using 4.2v for calculations leaves a little pad in there as opposed to guessing on sag. A cause for concern is counterfeit and/or mis-labled (ridiculously overstated) batteries, I have seen 10 amp batteries labeled and sold as 60 or 80 amp. Always buy your batteries from a trusted and reliable source that tests their products such as Liion Wholesale.

I have to agree that moochs tests pretty much are what the majority of us go on, kind of like the battery bible lol.

I myself occasionally do use the other place, I find it OK if I am honest, and also use a UK forum, although I use here and the UK forum much more than the other place-not that there is anything inherently wrong with the other place, I just find it a bit strict, but good for information.

Where did you see 10A cells rated at 60-80A? I am not doubting you, far from it, it is just awful, imagine someone not knowing much, and believing that rating, and the possible outcome.

I see on facebook a lot of vapers that have done little to no research at all, and are not new, talking about getting mechanical mods, and this worries me a lot. I understand a lot of people do want a simple to use device to quit smoking with, which is where I think the mid range regulated mods shine.

Also 100% on always buy from a trusted source. I get mine from batteries plus as I live in the UK, but as a beginner I was myself caught with some fake VTC4's that I DID use at high power-luckily I gather mine were some of the better fakes, as they never got warm or worse. If I remember correctly these were either from Ebay, or an online vape store in the UK-I wish I knew what I do now back then, as things like that would of been avoided.

 

[AlbyKortoona]

Where did you see 10A cells rated at 60-80A? I am not doubting you, far from it, it is just awful, imagine someone not knowing much, and believing that rating, and the possible outcome.

It was either e bay or amazon, don't remember exactly. But do remember the hair raising on the back of my neck, could just sense that something was sooo wrong lol.

 

[conanthewarrior]

It was either e bay or amazon, don't remember exactly. But do remember the hair raising on the back of my neck, could just sense that something was sooo wrong lol.

Ahh, good old Ebay or amazon aye! Probably some XXXfire or something. I actually own a 6000MAH 'High rate discharge, no memory effect" (On the wrapper) that never gets used, it cost about 50 pence and I just got it as I thought it was funny. I can't fully remember what it claimed, but I know it was recommended for vaping.

Obviously, this never gets used, and the MAH is probably in the low hundreds, like some of them cells that look like 18650s with much smaller cells inside, and powder and other rubbish packing it out.

The problem is, these things do occasionally get used by new users believing the high capacity and high discharge, after all, why would a company lie to them?

I genuinely think that vape stores should recommend good, safe batteries- a lot do, but there are some that still pump out things like the Efest cells that were panasonics rated for around 6 and 4 amps respectively-pretty sure if memory is correct the wrapper stated 35A.

 

[Zamazam]

The problem is, these things do occasionally get used by new users believing the high capacity and high discharge, after all, why would a company lie to them?

Money, Conan, Money. They want to sell the cheapest cell they can find for max profit. They are profiteers, not respectable merchants who know their wares. It's all about money to them. Fuck everyone else in their minds.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Money, Conan, Money. They want to sell the cheapest cell they can find for max profit. They are profiteers, not respectable merchants who know their wares. It's all about money to them. Fuck everyone else in their minds.

That is very true, I doubt that the Chinese re-wrappers are concerned about peoples wellbeing when there is money to be made.
I guess this is the same in many areas of life though, money is more important than people.

I never fully understand why say someone who robs a bank, and harms no one, often gets a longer prison sentence than for murder. They have done wrong, and should be punished, yes, but is money worth more than life? It seems that way unfortunately.

 

[Zamazam]

Read "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoyevsky. You will gain an understanding.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Read "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoyevsky. You will gain an understanding.

OK, thanks man-I will get a copy of this and read it. Does it explain why money is valued more than life itself? I can only myself see it as one reason, that reason being greed. It may offer another explanation though that will make sense.

Over here in the UK many people get sentences for benefit fraud that seem very excessive for what they have done. Sure, they have done wrong, but longer than for murder or manslaughter? It doesn't seem right to me in my opinion.

P.S Sorry for derailing.