Made me rethink heat steeping (Mythbusting)

[QuestForVapology]

I've been using my crockpot for every diy batch and I read an interesting sticky on Reddit. I'm hoping some of the experts can weigh in on this.

---
From a Reddit Moderator

https://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/41p961/diy_mythbusting/
What happens to your juice during a "speed steep" is much like what happens to your wool sweater when "speed drying" instead of hanging it out to dry. You're diminishing your flavors; degrading them with the prolonged exposure to heat. Your flavors are made up of volatiles- chemicals that are already fairly unstable in a solution. By adding heat to these volatiles, you're causing them to change structure entirely. The recommended way to use heat while mixing is to just warm the bottle to about 90F to make the VG thinner and easier to mix. DO NOT KEEP THE BOTTLE WARMER THAN ROOM TEMPERATURE FOR LONG PERIODS. The next layer of the steeping myth is of course the "best way to steep." This includes ultrasonic steeping, venting(covered later in the post), tumbling, sawsall(or similar power tool) shaking, and good ol' time. The absolute best method for steeping, if you have the funds for it, is to purchase a lab grade homogenizer. These run around $500 on the low quality end, with some high end models being $6000. This is not cost-effective for the hobbyist DIYer. A homogenizer will give you the fastest and most consistent steep of all methods.

Steeping as it is produces an ideal product with a shelf life of 6 months to a year. The most I've been able to get out of a "speed-steeped" juice is 2 months before it became garbage. This also seems to be the concensus with most experienced mixers with whom I've discussed this.
---

It's a confusing world out there.

 

[Neunerball]

The following is from http://www.nudenicotine.com/category/e-liquid-chemistry-education/

Heat:
AVOID excessive heat at all costs! Heat will only accelerate the oxidation of nicotine. While it will also accelerate the oxidation of the flavorings, the activation energy to do so is much lower than required. Within our laboratory, we have concluded that a room-temperature after bath between 20-30C is ideal for maintaining a stable steep temperature.

Agitation:
Agitation is key in achieving adequate dispersal of your flavoring in solution. Constant agitation would be ideal, but unless you have access to a shaker, this might not be attainable. However, this is not needed in most cases. Another way to assist in agitation is through the use of sonication. By pulsing sound waves through the eliquid, all molecules in solution are further agitated and dispersed, all while in the absence of added heat. This is why sonication is a great method for agitation and won’t accelerate oxidation of your nicotine. A frequency of ~600Hz should provide adequate agitation but remain under the activation energy required to accelerate the oxidation of nicotine further. These sonicators are obviously intended for the laboratory, but a common home jewelry cleaner can work wonders as well. Make sure the bath is filled with distilled water to prevent buildup of mineral deposits on the interior of your sonicator, and have at it! Common sonication times range from 3-10 minutes per session. Give your liquid some time to settle in between sonications.

 

[Flavor Alchemist]

How many times do you recommend for the sonication sessions?.....I have an old woofer speaker and a frequency generator that I can tune to exactly 600 Hz.....It would not be difficult to attach a bottle or 3 to this woofer and let it go.....Please advise.....also if you think other frequencies are more suitable, please advise, as my frequency generator can cover the 20-20,000 Hz range.....and I do have an old midrange, as well that could cover the higher frequencies than the woofer.....Please advise......

 

[Neunerball]

How many times do you recommend for the sonication sessions?.....I have an old woofer speaker and a frequency generator that I can tune to exactly 600 Hz.....It would not be difficult to attach a bottle or 3 to this woofer and let it go.....Please advise.....also if you think other frequencies are more suitable, please advise, as my frequency generator can cover the 20-20,000 Hz range.....and I do have an old midrange, as well that could cover the higher frequencies than the woofer.....Please advise......

Personally, I use an ultrasonic cleaner (40 KHz), w/ build in heater. Usually, I heat up the water, but not to it's full temperature of 140F, more like lukewarm. It takes at least several hours (4 to 10), depending on the flavors, in order to simulate 1 week regular steeping. Although inconvenient, having to start the timer over and over, it does speed up the steeping process.

 

[Teresa P]

^^^^ Totally agree. Nothing beats time for proper aging (and that's actually the proper term), and at the risk of being the center of a DIY witch hunt, I've always thought it a ridiculous waste of money to go to some of the electronic means some people go to to speed what science does naturally with a bit of time. While you're waiting for those juices in the cupboard (or in my case, the desk drawer) to properly age to perfection, make yourself a few shake n vapes to enjoy now.

 

[Time]

Your flavors are made up of volatiles- chemicals that are already fairly unstable in a solution. By adding heat to these volatiles, you're causing them to change structure entirely.

Okay. This is true but it leaves out a significant piece of information. The chemicals will change structure anyway, with time. The heat just speeds up the process.

Steeping as it is produces an ideal product with a shelf life of 6 months to a year. The most I've been able to get out of a "speed-steeped" juice is 2 months before it became garbage.

That part is probably true too. But, it also leaves out a significant piece of information. A DIY'er may well vape the juice within 2 months so the shortened shelf life may not matter.

In other words, while the opinion is relevant, it's only relevant in certain aspects. Speed mainly. It won't apply to some DIY'ers. It still comes down to personal preference. Heat just speeds up the process. It might shorten the shelf life, but for some, it doesn't matter.

Shaking and stirring methods have the same result. Speeding up the process. Faster "aging". The word "steep" was coined long ago but it's a poor word. We age juice. Like wine is aged. Or whiskey. Or even cheese. Some like to speed up the process using heat or fancy stirring methods.

I personally don't bother with the extra work or expense. I age with time.

 

[KittyVapes]

Oh Fer Fuxsake... time for a sanity check.
Mix it well and put it in the dark for a while... end of story. ...mebbe a lil shake every few days.

Forget all the wacky crap. There is no need for electrical stimulation of any sort.
Some flavors need more time to steep (blend) than others. (custards for example)

Or you could tape it to the cat.....

....woofer sonication

This Kitty is exactly how I feel after having my nose in the recipe section for the last 3 days.

 

[Alter]

During my noob period a few years back I heat steeped the several bottles of commercial juice I just got in the mail. I used a coffee pot and made a lego corral so the bottles weren't in contact with the glass, let it sit a couple hours at 160 degrees(checked with a thermometer), cooled down and repeated the process. The juice was much darker and tasted good so I thought victory. Within a month the juice just plain tasted bad and I had to throw it all away, so bottom line is that I caramelized the sweeteners in the juice. That was the first and last time I ever heat steeped any juice. I have a magnetic mixer and the most heat I use now is some hot water to loosen the VG a bit. Mix at high speed couple hours without the nic then sit overnight, add the nic then mix at a slower speed not to add extra air....works great for me. I have enough DIY juice in rotation that I can let juices steep in my cooler basement for easily a month and IMO you can do whatever magic you want but letting juice sit for prolonged periods of time is the key to a great vape, especially tobaccos. They say you can't rush art.

 

[QuestForVapology]

A DIY'er may well vape the juice within 2 months so the shortened shelf life may not matter.

True. Does heat interact with flavors short-term? HeadInclouds wrote on his White Mints Recipe that heat-steeping will fade mint flavors. If I was creating three samples of, let's say FA Vanilla Custard, juice at varying percentages, I don't want to wait a month to steep just to see which percentage I like.. But I also don't want the flavor to be compromised..

 

[freemind]

^^^^ Totally agree. Nothing beats time for proper aging (and that's actually the proper term), and at the risk of being the center of a DIY witch hunt, I've always thought it a ridiculous waste of money to go to some of the electronic means some people go to to speed what science does naturally with a bit of time. While you're waiting for those juices in the cupboard (or in my case, the desk drawer) to properly age to perfection, make yourself a few shake n vapes to enjoy now.

You said aging. YOU are AWESOME!
I think it's great when a DIYer actually uses proper terminology. I want to throw bricks when people call it steeping.

I also agree with using time to age your product. Screw the unnecessary equipment. I make 1-2 weeks of juice at a time. No need to make more than that.

 

[Teresa P]

I make 1-2 weeks of juice at a time. No need to make more than that.

This is the only part I have difficulty with, I have to try everything..........some women have the shoe fetish, I'm in sock feet with an office that looks like a vape shop....lol!

 

[Time]

True. Does heat interact with flavors short-term? HeadInclouds wrote on his White Mints Recipe that heat-steeping will fade mint flavors. If I was creating three samples of, let's say FA Vanilla Custard, juice at varying percentages, I don't want to wait a month to steep just to see which percentage I like.. But I also don't want the flavor to be compromised..

Yes, heat will interact with flavors short term. Whether it's a good thing or bad thing is still dependent on the user. Heat steeping may well fade mint flavors(I don't use mint flavors), but so will time, given enough of it.

It's still a personal preference. I mix juice once every six weeks or more. I'm not into mixing every day, week or two weeks. With that in mind, I test new flavors, percentages and recipes in the same manner. If it's good after a week on the shelf, it doesn't matter to me. It has to be good after six weeks so that's when I try it.

 

[Time]

I make 1-2 weeks of juice at a time. No need to make more than that.

Sure there is. I have better things to do and don't want to open my nic and flavor bottles more than necissary. I mix every other month or so.

 

[Model_A_Ford]

Can someone explain the thinking behind heating e-liquid? What exactly is trying to be accomplished? To mix fully?

I would think that you would want to limit oxidation of all ingredients, not speed it up.

Isn't mixing at room temp, shaking and then storing in a cool, dry and dark place(or just room temp, like a closet) the most logical effective method? Aren't flavors and nicotine readily absorbed by vg/pg? How long does it take before flavor is effectively absorbed?

 

[PuffPuffPass]

You said aging. YOU are AWESOME!
I think it's great when a DIYer actually uses proper terminology. I want to throw bricks when people call it steeping.

I also agree with using time to age your product. Screw the unnecessary equipment. I make 1-2 weeks of juice at a time. No need to make more than that.

I want to throw bricks at DIYer that makes 8 month supply. Then complains it goes bad in 6 months

 

[freemind]

Sure there is. I have better things to do and don't want to open my nic and flavor bottles more than necissary. I mix every other month or so.

I meant that is in, for me. I'm making 450 or so mils at a time for me. Sometimes more. That lasts approximately two weeks for me.

 

[freemind]

Can someone explain the thinking behind heating e-liquid? What exactly is trying to be accomplished? To mix fully?

I would think that you would want to limit oxidation of all ingredients, not speed it up.

Isn't mixing at room temp, shaking and then storing in a cool, dry and dark place(or just room temp, like a closet) the most logical effective method? Aren't flavors and nicotine readily absorbed by vg/pg? How long does it take before flavor is effectively absorbed?

Sometimes shake and vape is ok. With some flavors, it's not. It needs to sit after mixing a few days before it's blended together.

 

[PuffPuffPass]

Actually, we're talking about 2 different events here. Diffusion and aging.

We can speed up the diffusion of the combined liquids. But aging is a completely different process, and only occurs over time. We can replicate parts of the aging process, but even that is questionable on complex mixes.

5 year old whiskey aged in a barrel, can be duplicated by cutting the wood into small squares, toss them in the hooch. Then warm the liquid to speed up the diffusion of the wood flavor. The process takes about 24 hours and has to be monitored closely. It also increases the selling price of said whiskey.

But true aging, means exactly what it implies. Certain flavors change over time, and there's little we can do to speed that process up.

 

[Lost]

The absolute best method for steeping, if you have the funds for it, is to purchase a lab grade homogenizer.

And we all have 8 years of undigested meat in our colon that requires coffee enemas.

If the sanity checks above weren't enough...
These are liquids that mix together with a little coaxing. A homogenizer? The Sawzall idea is bad enough. None of these speed/efficiency methods create a chemical reaction that would magically bond the liquids... they don't need them anyway.

Grenadine and gin. Bass and Guinness. You can layer them, or calmly stir them with a spoon and make a permanent mixture.

Oil. If for some reason you have an oil in your flavoring, you can shake it for a year and the oil will still separate before you use up the bottle. That's where a lab-grade homogenizer might work, if you want to put out a second mortgage and do some research to figure out whether you can... without heat... and with a bizarre amount of pressure... get a guaranteed mix like a colloid versus nothing more than a slightly improved suspension. This is what emulsifiers are for... not that you'd want to add one to your juice anyway.

Just shake the bottle a little. You'll be fine.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

How many times do you recommend for the sonication sessions?.....I have an old woofer speaker and a frequency generator that I can tune to exactly 600 Hz.....It would not be difficult to attach a bottle or 3 to this woofer and let it go.....Please advise.....also if you think other frequencies are more suitable, please advise, as my frequency generator can cover the 20-20,000 Hz range.....and I do have an old midrange, as well that could cover the higher frequencies than the woofer.....Please advise......

It'd be kind of a funny hack if it worked. Static tones tend to overheat voice coils, though, which can lead to delamination.

 

[stevegmu]

Steeping e-liquid is a myth, period. There's no steeping going on with e-liquid, unless someone is selling e-liquids which contain solids...

 

[Chester Copperpot]

It's not so much a myth as it is a poor choice of words. I don't think anyone has the proper definition of the term in mind when they use it in this sense - either because they don't know it, or just can't be bothered to buck convention.

Wanna talk about a real crime? The popular use of "decimate" is killing me by inches.

 

[Lost]

Wanna talk about a real crime? The popular use of "decimate" is killing me by inches.

My current least-favorite abused word is "outrage." Quite handy though, if you use it as the sole search word in Google News. You get all the butthurt/SJW/reverse outrage stories handed to you on a silver platter.

[Edited for typo]

 

[skiball]

I think this debate will be one of those don't shake your alcohol kinda things. I mean if you can honestly tell the difference great but imo you prob need a real life.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

 

[Flavor Alchemist]

It'd be kind of a funny hack if it worked. Static tones tend to overheat voice coils, though, which can lead to delamination.

It DOES work.....and given a proper crossover network for the speaker, the voice coil issue you mentioned is not a problem.....I design speakers and crossovers, and have much experience in this area......But hey, yeah, everybody has their own way to do things....and that's all good.....Decimate?......you talking about the Roman Army?, whereby Generals would kill every 10th soldier standing in a line, after a battle, as a message to the rest, warning them of the perils of cowardice?

 

[pulsevape]

in my experince heat steeping mutes the flavor and is a waste of time, nothing beats time in a warmish spot....as for homoginizers I'm not real sure ...I knew a juice makers who used a "sheer stirrer" which is about the same thing, and they are very expesive outside the range of a DIYer....I'm somewhat leary of homoginizers because I'm concerned that they may create cavitaion, which speeds up the process of oxidizing nicotine.

 

[QuestForVapology]

I knew a juice makers who used a "sheer stirrer" which is about the same thing, and they are very expesive outside the range of a DIYer....I'm somewhat leary of homoginizers because I'm concerned that they may create cavitaion, which speeds up the process of oxidizing nicotine.

Hmm, though with shaking there is some cavitation as well, a homoginizer would just create more cavitation. Not sure if temporarily releasing air bubbles at a high level would destroy the nicotine. Then again I'm not a scientist. Maybe a homoginizer would help if used minimally to reach the sweet spot of oxidization. We should ask some juice vendors how they age their juice..

Are there any vendors out there that want to share how they do it?

 

[pulsevape]

I spoke with a nicotine manufacturer and they warned me about cavitation accelerating nicotine oxidation.....it's hard to say so many people vape low levels of nicotine lately, that oxidizing nicotine doesn't have the same disasterous effects it does on say 12mg 18 mg or 24 mg...

 

[stevegmu]

It's not so much a myth as it is a poor choice of words. I don't think anyone has the proper definition of the term in mind when they use it in this sense - either because they don't know it, or just can't be bothered to buck convention.

Wanna talk about a real crime? The popular use of "decimate" is killing me by inches.

That's what happens when a generation grows up on YouTube and FaceBook...
Most 'steeping' is just the mellowing of harsh flavors as they degrade after exposure to heat or air...

 

[SailCat]

Are there any vendors out there that want to share how they do it?

With the exception of the oak barrel, caviar and champagne e-liquids and a scant few other high-dime vendors, those folks aren't really big on hanging on to their finished product any longer than necessary, Nor are they well known for sharing their methodology, as I think on it.

 

[HeavyHauler]

I would think vendors would heat steep or use an UC, or magnetic mixer? Something anyways.

They want it done, tasty enough to sell right away and to keep making large batches.

You can't really sit on a month's worth of I don't know; 5-20 juice mixes.

No money to be made that way.

But who knows what they do?

 

[Egovro]

Is it necessary to age your juice with the nic in it? Why not age, then add the nic when you are ready to pull it off the shelf?

 

[itsmenotyou]

Is it necessary to age your juice with the nic in it? Why not age, then add the nic when you are ready to pull it off the shelf?

From what I've read (not an expert at all) what you want is for the flavors and nic to mix together and oxidize just enough for everything to be perfectly blended without causeing harshness or dirty/muddled flavors

sent from a dumb operated smartphone

 

[HeavyHauler]

^Also what I have read as well.

I think adding nic later, might throw off your flavours and you're going to be dicking around trying to get it right.

But I'm not talking from any experience, I've only made 5 mixes so far. I'm just basing my reply off of what I have read.

This is meant for @Egovro

 

[Time]

Is it necessary to age your juice with the nic in it? Why not age, then add the nic when you are ready to pull it off the shelf?

I think I'd do that but I'm lazy.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

It DOES work...

Hah, sweet. You attached bottles to the cone, or just blast em with a high SPL?

..and given a proper crossover network for the speaker, the voice coil issue you mentioned is not a problem.....I design speakers and crossovers, and have much experience in this area......But hey, yeah, everybody has their own way to do things....and that's all good.....

You're too kind. I checked with my references (google ) on the static tone thing and they just shook their heads. Dunno where I came up with that little theory, so mea culpa for being full of crap.

Decimate?......you talking about the Roman Army?, whereby Generals would kill every 10th soldier standing in a line, after a battle, as a message to the rest, warning them of the perils of cowardice?

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, the "decem" root of the word seems so obvious, yet it's used as though it were synonymous with annihilation. You'd expect at least the media to know better, given that their careers are centered around language and communication. But when cheeseless cheese sticks are big news, maybe my expectations are too high.

 

[Flavor Alchemist]

Hah, sweet. You attached bottles to the cone, or just blast em with a high SPL?You're too kind. I checked with my references (google ) on the static tone thing and they just shook their heads. Dunno where I came up with that little theory, so mea culpa for being full of crap.Pretty much, yeah. I mean, the "decem" root of the word seems so obvious, yet it's used as though it were synonymous with annihilation. You'd expect at least the media to know better, given that their careers are centered around language and communication. But when cheeseless cheese sticks are big news, maybe my expectations are too high.

Velcro.........to the cone........at anywhere between 60Hz to 1000Hz on a woofer........1000Hz up to about 5000Hz can be done on an open backed midrange.....Like it is said throughout ALL the DIY juice mixing forums......."Taste is subjective"......meaning everyone has their own taste preferences, and keep an open mind .....and don't fault others for their taste preferences........To me, the same applies to methods.....It's all good

 

[HeavyHauler]

Velcro.........to the cone........at anywhere between 60Hz to 1000Hz on a woofer........1000Hz up to about 5000Hz can be done on an open backed midrange.....Like it is said throughout ALL the DIY juice mixing forums......."Taste is subjective"......meaning everyone has their own taste preferences, and keep an open mind .....and don't fault others for their taste preferences........To me, the same applies to methods.....It's all good

I like that you do things your way, but why put your bottles of juice on your equipment?

My equipment is made for one thing only; getting good sound out and is for music/movies. Nothing else.

But to each their own!

 

[Flavor Alchemist]

Is it necessary to age your juice with the nic in it? Why not age, then add the nic when you are ready to pull it off the shelf?

Knowing that your carrier for the Nicotine is PG or VG, do remember that if it is mixed in after the aging process, the Nicotine carrier base portion will not have had the opportunity to meld with the other part of the mix as the rest of your base components.....If you mix a small mg/ml of Nicotine, say 3 mg/ml this may not pose any issues.....however if you are mixing Nicotine at 12, 16, 18, or 24mg/ml....there may be a more significant % of liquid that hasn't had the chance to age along with the rest of your mix......which may perhaps have a detrimental effect on your juice flavor.....and stability of the juice....meaning that your juice vape could change in taste significantly from the start to the finish of your mix....perhaps rendering your recipe results less reliable.....

 

[Neunerball]

...Or you could tape it to the cat.....

....woofer sonication

OK now, that's wrong! It's like my cousin putting a mouse in the freezer to see, how long it will survive.

 

[Flavor Alchemist]

Hey Neunerball.......some are sicker than others..........Love thy Neighbor?

 

[OBDave]

Can someone explain the thinking behind heating e-liquid? What exactly is trying to be accomplished? To mix fully?

I would think that you would want to limit oxidation of all ingredients, not speed it up.

Isn't mixing at room temp, shaking and then storing in a cool, dry and dark place(or just room temp, like a closet) the most logical effective method? Aren't flavors and nicotine readily absorbed by vg/pg? How long does it take before flavor is effectively absorbed?

The biggest benefit (that I can see) from heat steeping (heat "aging" if you prefer, I know I'm anal about people who express PG/VG as VG/PG) is that the VG is thinned to the point that agitation (shaking the hell out of your bottle) is more effective in distributing the flavoring. I'll put bottles in a basin of hot tap water, shake them every few minutes, then end my heat process once the water naturally cools, giving a good 4-5 shakes in the meantime. Works great for me and everyone I mix for...

 

[Flavor Alchemist]

I like that you do things your way, but why put your bottles of juice on your equipment?

My equipment is made for one thing only; getting good sound out and is for music/movies. Nothing else.

But to each their own!

These are old worn out and discarded woofers and mids picked from the bone pile......Not current equipment

 

[HeavyHauler]

These are old worn out and discarded woofers and mids picked from the bone pile......Not current equipment

Ahh ok, gotcha! I should of guessed that, but I did not.

 

[Neunerball]

Hey Neunerball.......some are sicker than others..........Love thy Neighbor?

LOL. My Grandfather (who was a real smart guy) used to say: "There are idiots, and there are others!". When I was young, I didn't quite understand, what he was saying. Now, older, and wiser myself, I do.

 

[Model_A_Ford]

The biggest benefit (that I can see) from heat steeping (heat "aging" if you prefer, I know I'm anal about people who express PG/VG as VG/PG) is that the VG is thinned to the point that agitation (shaking the hell out of your bottle) is more effective in distributing the flavoring. I'll put bottles in a basin of hot tap water, shake them every few minutes, then end my heat process once the water naturally cools, giving a good 4-5 shakes in the meantime. Works great for me and everyone I mix for...

off topic, but what's the deal with the "PG/VG not VG/PG"?

 

[itsmenotyou]

off topic, but what's the deal with the "PG/VG not VG/PG"?

I believe it's because "old" jucie was higher pg (70pg/30vg) and so it was put first. However since then most juices have became ~30pg/70vg

sent from a dumb operated smartphone

 

[OBDave]

off topic, but what's the deal with the "PG/VG not VG/PG"?

I believe it's because "old" jucie was higher pg (70pg/30vg) and so it was put first. However since then most juices have became ~30pg/70vg

sent from a dumb operated smartphone

For most English speakers, P comes before V in the alphabet. Having a common nomenclature for discussing blends is helpfu - if everyone got back to the PG/VG standard it would be much easier to understand what a 20/80 blend was - the new common practice of listing the bigger number first (often without specifying what that number represents) does nothing but create mass confusion, IMHO.

 

[freemind]

off topic, but what's the deal with the "PG/VG not VG/PG"?

OBDave and several of us, would like a "standard" so it is not confusing when buying juice. Most of the time the juice ratio is not mentioned and it's a crap shoot if the first number is PG or VG anymore.

 

[Time]

For most English speakers, P comes before V in the alphabet. Having a common nomenclature for discussing blends is helpfu - if everyone got back to the PG/VG standard it would be much easier to understand what a 20/80 blend was - the new common practice of listing the bigger number first (often without specifying what that number represents) does nothing but create mass confusion, IMHO.

I agree about the common terminology. When I started, pg always came first and no one had to clarify(type pg/vg).

But now that I think about it, it's not necessary to use both numbers anyway. I'd prefer a single number designation. % VG. So 50VG, 70VG, 90VG. The rest is PG and it's not needed to write it to know what it is.