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You're talking about your health and well being. If you're in a situation akin to passing a joint around, you don't have to partake, whether it's using some one else's vape or lending yours. If it's like a nicotine buzz party, why are you there?

You should stop smoking and vape exclusively. Like others have suggested, there are so many types of devices, a person that vapes to replace cigarettes has not just more than 1 device, or more than 1 type of device, but several of differing types. Whether driving, sitting at home, going to a party, at work, on the golf course.....there's a device for every activity if you want it to be so, big clouds, little clouds, stealth device, small one, big one...

You should do something about being in need of 50-60mg salt nic. A couple different devices for freebase nic.
 

bobnat

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treducing the alkaline levels by adding the acids you remove the throat hit.
all of a sudden you’ve just got rid of a control mechanism ....now you vape nic at massive levels you couldnt get near with freebase = problem

I think this is a very important point. I've been using Nic Salt for almost 2 years now. Tried it out of curiosity and liked it. When I started, I was using freebase at 3mg. With the NS I've been at 4.5mg for all this time. Last month I pulled out a bottle of freebase nic as I have quite a bit of it that's 2-3 years old. I mixed some up at 4.5mg and it's harsh in comparision. The nic itself is as clear as the day I got it so I know it's not oxidized.

It took a bit to get used to it but it's not a burden or anything but I did find that I can't chain vape it like I can the NS. There are times when I will blast away at my vapes. At any time I've got 7-8 mods ready to hit. At least once a day I'll overdo it and get a bit nic sick. I never did that with freebase. I decided last month that I'll no longer buy NS, I'm just going to use what I have. I'm moving back to the US in July so I'm going to stock up on freebase and have it sent to my sister before May. I've yet to decide how I'm going to get my 4 year supply of nic home though.

To the OP, thanks for the clarification. I had no idea that Juul had that effect on people. It's understandable why so many people are alarmed and concerned about it. As a parent, I'd be a bit annoyed by it as well.
 

Carambrda

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I support banning juice with a nic level over 20 mg/ml.
In my opinion many smokers who kick cigs with Juul will actually increase their nicotine addiction. And if a Juul is not handy they will go back to cigs very easily.
It will also make vaping less attractive to teens who just want a nic buzz.
I support lifting the ban on freebase nic over 20 mg/ml (TPD law within the EU). Nic salt formulas that not only decrease the harshness, but also increase the bioavailability (i.e. the speed at which the nic crosses the blood-brain barrier) should be targeted with exclamations of "increase their nicotine addiction", NOT freebase nicotine. There simply exists no credible scientific evidence to support the claim that freebase nic per se (i.e. without tobacco smoke and without adding other stuff like benzoic acid that would effectively turn nic into an addictive cocktail) is addictive. Any and all of the so-called "evidence" that mentions "nicotine addiction" is confounding nic with combustible tobacco smoke. Confounding, i.e. similar to how Stanley Glantz was confounding "heart attacks that happened 10 years prior to vaping" with "vaping causes heart attacks". His article about that shit was recently retracted from the Journal of the American Heart Association, and, here on the VU there's like half a dozen different threads on that subject. So now all we need is half a dozen different threads on why nicotine patches and Nicorette sprays aren't in any way capable to addict never-smokers. Until someone actually PROVES that vaping freebase nic is addictive, I'll believe in flying saucers, unicorns, and pixi dust if ppl want me to, but I won't believe in "nic addition".
 

KingPin!

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I support lifting the ban on freebase nic over 20 mg/ml (TPD law within the EU). Nic salt formulas that not only decrease the harshness, but also increase the bioavailability (i.e. the speed at which the nic crosses the blood-brain barrier) should be targeted with exclamations of "increase their nicotine addiction", NOT freebase nicotine. There simply exists no credible scientific evidence to support the claim that freebase nic per se (i.e. without tobacco smoke and without adding other stuff like benzoic acid that would effectively turn nic into an addictive cocktail) is addictive. Any and all of the so-called "evidence" that mentions "nicotine addiction" is confounding nic with combustible tobacco smoke. Confounding, i.e. similar to how Stanley Glantz was confounding "heart attacks that happened 10 years prior to vaping" with "vaping causes heart attacks". His article about that shit was recently retracted from the Journal of the American Heart Association, and, here on the VU there's like half a dozen different threads on that subject. So now all we need is half a dozen different threads on why nicotine patches and Nicorette sprays aren't in any way capable to addict never-smokers. Until someone actually PROVES that vaping freebase nic is addictive, I'll believe in flying saucers, unicorns, and pixi dust if ppl want me to, but I won't believe in "nic addition".

every tried going nic free caram?

Tried it for a month was tough, stopped enjoying vaping when I tried it ended up introducing nic back granted at a lower percentage but I wasn’t ready to cut it out completely

edit: nowhere near as tough as giving up smoking was but it was what I can only describe as a Jaffa cake ... tasty but not a real cake :giggle:
 

SteveS45

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every tried going nic free caram?

Tried it for a month was tough, stopped enjoying vaping when I tried it ended up introducing nic back granted at a lower percentage but I wasn’t ready to cut it out completely

edit: nowhere near as tough as giving up smoking was but it was what I can only describe as a Jaffa cake ... tasty but not a real cake :giggle:

At one point I tried lowering my Nicotine and was down to 1.5MG but vaping lacked something and went right back to 3MG and now up to 4MG. But I find I don't need to vape when I can't although I like to but I can go without. Just my 2 Bits.
 

Carambrda

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every tried going nic free caram?

Tried it for a month was tough, stopped enjoying vaping when I tried it ended up introducing nic back granted at a lower percentage but I wasn’t ready to cut it out completely

edit: nowhere near as tough as giving up smoking was but it was what I can only describe as a Jaffa cake ... tasty but not a real cake :giggle:
No, I haven't tried it nor am going to. This is just because ex-smokers who have quit smoking, cold turkey, more than a decade ago still experience cravings today, and in fact these cravings are the main driving force behind relapsing back to smoking conventional cigarettes, as all it really takes to relapse is just a single moment of weakness... so, because ex-smokers who never have vaped are experiencing cravings, one can logically expect ex-smokers who vape will also experience these same cravings after they stop vaping, therefore the widespread suggestion that "addiction to vaping nicotine" is what causes these cravings is yet another textbook example of "confounding". So much so, calling it "expectation bias" in the scientific world would be multiple steps beyond euphemistic. Vaping freebase nic juices suppresses cravings for combustible tobacco smoke, but this fact does not in any way imply that vaping freebase nic juices is addictive. To the contrary, the common observation that people who never consumed nicotine before can not get addicted to nicotine patches or Nicorette sprays, in cohort with the (also common) observation that people who switch from smoking to vaping are spontaneously lowering the nic strength of their juice one small step at a time, is suggesting that vaping freebase nic juices is not addictive. Finally, here's that annoying link again: https://www.vapor4life.com/blog/the-truth-and-technology-behind-juul-and-nic-salts-revealed
 

KingPin!

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No, I haven't tried it nor am going to. This is just because ex-smokers who have quit smoking, cold turkey, more than a decade ago still experience cravings today, and in fact these cravings are the main driving force behind relapsing back to smoking conventional cigarettes, as all it really takes to relapse is just a single moment of weakness... so, because ex-smokers who never have vaped are experiencing cravings, one can logically expect ex-smokers who vape will also experience these same cravings after they stop vaping, therefore the widespread suggestion that "addiction to vaping nicotine" is what causes these cravings is yet another textbook example of "confounding". So much so, calling it "expectation bias" in the scientific world would be multiple steps beyond euphemistic. Vaping freebase nic juices suppresses cravings for combustible tobacco smoke, but this fact does not in any way imply that vaping freebase nic juices is addictive. To the contrary, the common observation that people who never consumed nicotine before can not get addicted to nicotine patches or Nicorette sprays, in cohort with the (also common) observation that people who switch from smoking to vaping are spontaneously lowering the nic strength of their juice one small step at a time, is suggesting that vaping freebase nic juices is not addictive. Finally, here's that annoying link again: https://www.vapor4life.com/blog/the-truth-and-technology-behind-juul-and-nic-salts-revealed

interesting perspective hadn’t thought of it that way ...agree once a smoker always a smoker there’s always that something that might pull you back...even now I sometimes get rare urges to have a smoke even though haven’t touched one in nearly 4 years

I wonder though if someone picked up a vape who had never smoked, did that for a while...would they experience the same sort of attachment to vapes as an ex smoker does to cigarettes?

would make for interesting case study in cases of freebase and salt...all the members I know here are ex smokers
 

Carambrda

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interesting perspective hadn’t thought of it that way ...agree once a smoker always a smoker there’s always that something that might pull you back...even now I sometimes get rare urges to have a smoke even though haven’t touched one in nearly 4 years

I wonder though if someone picked up a vape who had never smoked, did that for a while...would they experience the same sort of attachment to vapes as an ex smoker does to cigarettes?

would make for interesting case study in cases of freebase and salt...all the members I know here are ex smokers
I suppose never-smokers could develop an attachment to vaping flavored 0mg juice because it has been proven elsewhere that ringing a bell can cause a dog to start drooling even before being rewarded with nice flavors so... at what point do you call it an addiction? Research confirms that vaping freebase nic juices causes nic to get absorbed about equally as slow as when using nic patches. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S181808761500063X
Do you know anyone who never consumed nic before and who, despite that, got addicted to nic patches? Are fruit-flavored Nicorette sprays addictive just because some people keep using them, or do they just keep using them because they like fruit flavor, and, shouldn't we ban books when people keep reading them all the time?

Here's another research article about inhaling nic: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11739-019-02025-3
 

5150sick

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If you smoked and you now vape then I see no reason to quit using nicotine.
Unless you need to gain an extra 50lbs for some reason or something.
 

MyMagicMist

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a person that vapes to replace cigarettes has not just more than 1 device, or more than 1 type of device, but several of differing types.

1 Eleaf Pico squeeze squonker (second in line)
1 aluminum Coppervape squonker (fourth and fifth rotated between this and brass one)
1 brass Copervape squonker
1 brass toned Vindicator/Kennedy dripping mechanical (toss up with Topside for third)
1 Dovpo Topside Lite regulated squonker
1 Wismec Luxotic sem-mechanical squonker (current "in hand" mod)
2 Itatze stick batteries (seldom used)

Quite a few different RDA although it seems I'm developing a strong fondness of the Wasp Nano RDA by Oumier, have 3 of them. I also like the Kennedy RDA and Gorge RDA. Got a Velocity V2 like the one linked and another Velocity V2. The Velocities got me into coil building & squonking. I tried a Terminator squonk kit, can say they're a POS. I don't have an authentic Kennedy but a clone which come with FastTech's Vindicator kit. Still the clone is enough to offer one a view of liking the RDA.

I've had a Smok M22, a Ola X Hero, a kit Similar to this Innokin MVP. The MVP itself lasted a few years as the rest of the kit broke down. I also used egO style batteries with evod style clearomizers. So glad to be away from those too.
 
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5150sick

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I have at least two devices (usually 3) on me at all times too.
If anyone ever asks about it I simply remind them that I'd never hang out anywhere with only one cigarette left.
 

bobnat

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I have at least two devices (usually 3) on me at all times too.
If anyone ever asks about it I simply remind them that I'd never hang out anywhere with only one cigarette left.

Me too. I carry plenty of juice spare batteries all the time. The odd thing is that in my day to day routine I'm never more than 15 minutes from home.
 
I support banning juice with a nic level over 20 mg/ml.
In my opinion many smokers who kick cigs with Juul will actually increase their nicotine addiction. And if a Juul is not handy they will go back to cigs very easily.
It will also make vaping less attractive to teens who just want a nic buzz.
Agreed. Now I'm a 20 year old trying to use vapes to quit an nicotine addiction that started with juul.
 

The Cromwell

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There is more to tobacco addiction than nicotine dependence

No dispute there, and no dispute on the youth vaping epidemic being blown out of proportions.
But I think that Juuls and high nic salt levels have caused a lot of nicotine addiction/dependence.
And even increased it among those using high nic salts to quit smoking. Still better than smoking but not quite the most desired outcome.

Clive was kind of on a different track there than I am.
 

Carambrda

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There is more to tobacco addiction than nicotine dependence

No dispute there, and no dispute on the youth vaping epidemic being blown out of proportions.
But I think that Juuls and high nic salt levels have caused a lot of nicotine addiction/dependence.
And even increased it among those using high nic salts to quit smoking. Still better than smoking but not quite the most desired outcome.

Clive was kind of on a different track there than I am.
First you'd have to find one small shred of evidence to even suggest that there exists such a thing as "nicotine addiction/dependence in humans". Now, I don't doubt that it is very much possible, and in fact I want to believe that ANYTHING is possible... unfortunately however, personal belief systems should be kept irrelevant when it comes to the definition of science, and, that is despite science isn't about white and black, but instead it is about that which is unknown or not yet fully understood, and to get a handle on whether our conceptions are still correct.
 

The Cromwell

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First you'd have to find one small shred of evidence to even suggest that there exists such a thing as "nicotine addiction/dependence in humans". Now, I don't doubt that it is very much possible, and in fact I want to believe that ANYTHING is possible... unfortunately however, personal belief systems should be kept irrelevant when it comes to the definition of science, and, that is despite science isn't about white and black, but instead it is about that which is unknown or not yet fully understood, and to get a handle on whether our conceptions are still correct.
Just google Nicotine dependence.
Plenty of science there.
educate thyself, I am not gonna do it for ya.
 

Carambrda

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Just google Nicotine dependence.
Plenty of science there.
educate thyself, I am not gonna do it for ya.
I have been googling it every couple of days for the past 2 years or so. Still nothing.

Here's that annoying link again: https://www.clivebates.com/the-great-american-youth-vaping-epidemic-really
From it:
As the discussion above suggests, ‘addiction’ is a slippery concept to define and senior officials are using it extensively without defining it. For it to be a meaningful term, it must mean something different to liking something a lot or feeling an urge to drink water when suffering water withdrawal (i.e. being thirsty). In the way the term is generally used to apply to tobacco use, it might have these characteristics:
  1. Loss of control
  2. Some sort of harm, impairment or distress to the user
  3. First-use each day within 60 minutes of waking
We don’t know how much adolescent vaping meets these criteria – I suspect only a tiny fraction if any.
(Emphasis in bold is mine.)
 

The Cromwell

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Why I said dependence.

clive is a medical professional?
His article has been peer reviewed?
Ohh since he is not a professional I guess it has been peer reviewed :)


My opinions are just as good or bad as his are.
Quote some articles on nicotine dependence by professionals.
 

Carambrda

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Why I said dependence.

clive is a medical professional?
His article has been peer reviewed?
Ohh since he is not a professional I guess it has been peer reviewed :)


My opinions are just as good or bad as his are.
Quote some articles on nicotine dependence by professionals.
I know you said dependence. I already told you I've been googling it every couple of days for the past 2 years or so. Every clinical study that involved human test subjects simply confounds it with tobacco dependence in pretty much the same way a lot of medical professionals are also confounding dependence with addiction.

He doesn't need to be a medical professional to still qualify as a public health specialist and as someone who also has relevant professional experience in the field of policy and advocacy focussed on illicit drugs. In addition, contrary to a lot of medical professionals, he doesn't confound nicotine with tobacco because, clearly, he is one heck of a lot more reliable than they are. And BTW, just because an article has been peer-reviewed, doesn't necessarily mean that the validity of claims made in the article have also been verified, as instead, usually it just means that only the presentation and format have been checked prior to publication to meet the criteria and expectations/standard set by the staff of the journal.

As for your opinions, they are really nothing more than just blanket statements, whereas Clive Bates defends his opinions with proper argumentation, i.e. he makes evidence-based logical sense with real data as opposed to just be emotional and irrational based purely on personal beliefs. He was trained to be an engineer (as am I), but the notion of science and of what constitutes fake science is not unfamiliar to him (nor to me).

The reason why I can't quote some articles on nicotine dependence by professionals is simple. There aren't any.
 

KingPin!

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Nicotine increases your heart rate and causes a surge in the hormones noradrenaline and dopamine in your brain ...the more your brain gets the less receptive it is to its effects.

This effect is well documented in many studies as are the withdrawal effects associated with it.

However as with everything is not easy to pick it all apart ...the main difference between cigarettes and vaping with nicotine is the efficiency of delivery systems (excluding removing all the other toxic chemicals in cigarettes)...I think we have established already that JUUL salt systems ability to deliver nicotine is far more efficient than freebase due to higher MG dosages achieved in relation to lower PH levels and in some studies users have more nic in their blood systems than actual smokers had.

I think it inappropriate to completely deny dependence caram, it hasn’t really been absolutely proven one way or another yet so keeping an open mind and people listening to their own body is the safest way to go (especially as we each have different metabolic, synapse and brain chemistries that react to these things) there have also been people in here who have used salts saying they have upped their usage and got nic sick easier than freebase as a result...do we simply blanket call bullshit to such feedback?....No

Vaping is magnitudes better than smoking as evidenced so far, and members on these boards alone have found it easier to wean themselves off nic or reduce it significantly with vaping than they did with cigarettes, yet many still find it tough to remove it completely or just want to keep it as they like its effects in a greatly reduced toxic mechanism.

this is a good read from page 52ish

https://assets.publishing.service.g...garettes_and_heated_tobacco_products_2018.pdf
 
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MrMeowgi

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To me I'd say someone like the op talked about that can't go 10 minutes without her juul is dependent on nicotine. Whether it be addiction or not. I know I have a hard time when I goto work without a vape. That's an addiction. Because I feel the same antsy, anxious feeling I had when I was on drugs. Not that I would ruin my life for nicotine but the feeling is the same.
 

bobnat

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I think it inappropriate to completely deny dependence caram, it hasn’t really been absolutely proven one way or another yet so keeping an open mind and people listening to their own body is the safest way to go (especially as we each have different metabolic, synapse and brain chemistries that react to these things) there have also been people in here who have used salts saying they have upped their usage and got nic sick easier than freebase as a result...do we simply blanket call bullshit to such feedback?

Well said.
 

MyMagicMist

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members on these boards alone have found it easier to wean themselves off nic or reduce it significantly with vaping than they did with cigarettes, yet many still find it tough to remove it completely or just want to keep it as they like its effects in a greatly reduced toxic mechanism.

Yeah, I tried going down to 12 mg/ml strength. Found that it was not filling the void "enough". Not sure if the need was physiological or psychological. All I know is it feels like a need.

I know I have a hard time when I goto work without a vape. That's an addiction. Because I feel the same antsy, anxious feeling I had when I was on drugs. Not that I would ruin my life for nicotine but the feeling is the same.

There you go, that's where I am.
 

Carambrda

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Nicotine increases your heart rate and causes a surge in the hormones noradrenaline and dopamine in your brain ...the more your brain gets the less receptive it is to its effects.

This effect is well documented in many studies as are the withdrawal effects associated with it.
Again, show me where.
However as with everything is not easy to pick it all apart ...the main difference between cigarettes and vaping with nicotine is the efficiency of delivery systems (excluding removing all the other toxic chemicals in cigarettes)...I think we have established already that JUUL salt systems ability to deliver nicotine is far more efficient than freebase due to higher MG dosages achieved in relation to lower PH levels and in some studies users have more nic in their blood systems than actual smokers had.

I think it inappropriate to completely deny dependence caram, it hasn’t really been absolutely proven one way or another yet
It has really been absolutely NOT proven in any way at all.
so keeping an open mind
I am keeping an open mind. Just not so open that my brain falls out.
and people listening to their own body is the safest way to go (especially as we each have different metabolic, synapse and brain chemistries that react to these things) there have also been people in here who have used salts saying they have upped their usage and got nic sick easier than freebase as a result...do we simply blanket call bullshit to such feedback?....No
I got real thirsty and I upped my usage of water. Ergo, water is an addictive substance... please read the article by Clive Bates that I linked previously in the thread.
Vaping is magnitudes better than smoking as evidenced so far, and members on these boards alone have found it easier to wean themselves off nic or reduce it significantly with vaping than they did with cigarettes, yet many still find it tough to remove it completely or just want to keep it as they like its effects in a greatly reduced toxic mechanism.

this is a good read from page 52ish

https://assets.publishing.service.g...garettes_and_heated_tobacco_products_2018.pdf
On page 53:
Nicotine addictiveness

It is well established that nicotine is the primary addictive component of tobacco smoke (70). In this section we explore the addictiveness of nicotine, as well as the extent to which it varies across different forms of nicotine delivery.
This references a book that was published by the Royal College of Physicians in the year 2000. Please note, Clive Bates was a member of the tobacco advisory group of the Royal College of Physicians at the time when they published this book, and, in addition, he was also the Director of Action on Smoking and Health. However, this book contains no evidence to support that nicotine, by itself (i.e. in absence of tobacco smoke), is addictive. So, on page 56:
Uptake among non-smokers

Concerns have also been raised about the propensity for adolescent non-smokers to become dependent on cleaner nicotine products. This propensity is likely to be affected by addictiveness (alongside other variables such as marketing and accessibility). Consistent with the above, the RCP report concluded that there was no substantial evidence of non-smokers becoming dependent on NRT (68).
Let me please repeat. No substantial evidence.
 

KingPin!

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If it walks like a duck...quacks like a duck :giggle:

Ahh selective quoting my favourite

Again, show me where.

It has really been proven

I am keeping an open mind. Just my brain falls out.

I got real thirsty and I upped my usage of water. Ergo, water is an addictive substance

...that’s nice
 

Carambrda

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Too late for some :rolleyes:
 

VinnySem

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I smoked a long time ago, quit cold turkey when cigs hit $3/pack because I am a cheap ass mf'er. Fast forward 20+ years, had a relationship with a woman that was vaping to quit cigarettes. She had some tiny Kanger tank with sweet dessert flavors, gave one a try... loved it, bought some similar setups to what she had and started buying juice. Then, because I'm a cheap ass mf'er, I got into building coils, and then ultimately making my own liquids. Now, I vape at 2-3mg, mostly dessert flavors, to avoid snacking. I've been doing the keto diet and the sweet dessert flavors satisfy the sweet taste cravings. My lungs, well... just had a doctors appointment and my lungs have perfect health. I have a variety of setups, from tight draw MTL setups for in the car/in my office at work where I don't want any big clouds, to an Aromamizer Plus with mesh deck that will make my apartment look like there's a KISS concert happening. And building coils and making ejuice is like a fun tinkering project.


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I was a change smoker, then faced a lot of health issues. Being a vegan I had vitamin B12 deficiency too. Then I found nicotine-free vape pen.
It helped me to quit smoking and it vaporized vitamin B12 helped to get of B12 deficiency. I am still using the vape pen.
 
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Lady Sarah

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I smoked for 34 years, and vaping got me off the coffin nails.

When I went in for back surgery, the hospital had a policy. I could vape in my patient room, since it was a way to abstain from smoking. One nurse's aid had a problem with it. I had a problem with her, and mentioned it to the nurse. That aid never came back to my room, and I got to continue vaping.

Screw the anti vaping hype!
 

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