The MVA limits in my ratings tables are not a number to use for vaping!

[Mooch]

Yes, very long...but very important...

The MVA limits are meant only to give you an idea of the risk if a battery is accidentally discharged at beyond its continuous current rating when vaping. You should not consider them as a rating for the battery that you can vape at!

If properly used the MVA limit can help increase our safety. But it has been misused by too many.

Safety is important and must guide us in the recommendations we make. I have decided to remove the MVA limit numbers from my tables and ask that everyone delete any tables they have now and download the new ones that are available (in the usual places).

Please do not post or distribute any earlier version of these tables.
Please delete any earlier version of these tables you might have posted.
Please do not recommend the MVA limit as an acceptable vaping level.

I ask this with all the sincerity and urgency that I can muster...please.

Our community is under increased scrutiny and battery and vaping hardware (atomizer and device) regulations/standards are now being discussed and written...very severe ones. I am not allowed to discuss some of what I've learned but it could be bad. We must set a good example and self-regulate our community as best as we can. I cannot emphasize too strongly the importance of this.

I realize that many are vaping at discharge levels considerably above the continuous discharge rating (CDR) of their batteries and have done so without incident. But that doesn't mean it's done without risk.

Giving the community the tools and data we need to pick the best battery is very important to me though. I have a way to replace the pulse testing I do now. These new tests can be used to directly compare how hard one battery hits versus another and which is the better performer. It will simplify my testing too.

Many battery wrapping companies sell batteries with ratings that are considerably higher than the battery's true ratings. This is an issue I will continue to devote a lot of my time to.

I realize that many of you will be upset at these changes. I'm not doing this to piss off the high power vapers. You will still have the tools you need to pick the best performing battery. I will post about this soon.

But I can only recommend to our community that we never exceed the continuous current rating (CDR) of any battery. These batteries were never meant to be used outside of a battery pack with suitable protection electronics.

Each of us can decide the level of risk we wish to take ourselves but we should recommend safe battery use to others.

Thank you for your time.
Sorry for the long read and the inconvenience of having to replace your tables! The 18350/18500 and 26650 tables won't be updated for a while. The 2x700 and 18650 tables are updated regularly.


Thank you,
Mooch

 

[Deucesjack]

Yes, very long...but very important...

They are meant only to give you an idea of the risk if a battery is accidentally discharged at beyond its continuous current rating when vaping. You should not consider them as a rating for the battery that you can vape at!

If properly used the MVA limit can help increase our safety. But it has been misused by too many.

Safety is important and must guide us in the recommendations we make. I have decided to remove the MVA limit numbers from my tables and ask that everyone delete any tables they have now and download the new ones that are available (in the usual places).

Please do not post or distribute any earlier version of these tables.
Please delete any earlier version of these tables you might have posted.
Please do not recommend the MVA limit as an acceptable vaping level.

I ask this with all the sincerity and urgency that I can muster...please.

Our community is under increased scrutiny and battery and vaping hardware (atomizer and device) regulations/standards are now being discussed and written...very severe ones. I am not allowed to discuss some of what I've learned but it could be bad. We must set a good example and self-regulate our community as best as we can. I cannot emphasize too strongly the importance of this.

I realize that many are vaping at discharge levels considerably above the continuous discharge rating (CDR) of their batteries and have done so without incident. But that doesn't mean it's done without risk.

Giving the community the tools and data we need to pick the best battery is very important to me though. I have a way to replace the pulse testing I do now. These new tests can be used to directly compare how hard one battery hits versus another and which is the better performer. It will simplify my testing too.

Many battery wrapping companies sell batteries with ratings that are considerably higher than the battery's true ratings. This is an issue I will continue to devote a lot of my time to.

I realize that many of you will be upset at these changes. I'm not doing this to piss off the high power vapers. You will still have the tools you need to pick the best performing battery. I will post about this soon.

But I can only recommend to our community that we never exceed the continuous current rating (CDR) of any battery. These batteries were never meant to be used outside of a battery pack with suitable protection electronics.

Each of us can decide the level of risk we wish to take ourselves but we should recommend safe battery use to others.

Thank you for your time.
Sorry for the long read and the inconvenience of having to replace your tables!

Thank you,
Mooch

Thank you for all you do for our community Mooch.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[JuicyLucy]

Big props to you and thank you

I am not allowed to discuss some of what I've learned but it could be bad.

Heck of a cliffhanger though...

 

[r055co]

Thanks Mooch, you are a treasure to the Vaping community and everything you do is appreciated.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

 

[~Don~]

Thanks for the update!

 

[r055co]

Removed per request

 

[The Cromwell]

Thanks Mooch.

 

[Mattp169]

....

 

[Fudgey Finger]

I was wondering where the MVA ratings went. Thanks for all you do for us and the education so many of us get from you.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

 

[hellcatrydr]

I read every word you write Mooch. Gratitude for all you do sir.

 

[KingPin!]

Thanks Mooch

@Carambrda - probably relevant for the advice you’ve been giving out

 

[KingPin!]

I’ve stickied this post for you @Mooch

 

[Mooch]

I’ve stickied this post for you @Mooch

Wow...thank you!

 

[Carambrda]

Thanks Mooch

@Carambrda - probably relevant for the advice you’ve been giving out

Hey, I never said that going above the MVA rating was safe. But if the MVA ratings need to go because too many people seem to think that I did say that, then I'm all for it.

 

[The Cromwell]

Hey, I never said that going above the MVA rating was safe. But if the MVA ratings need to go because too many people seem to think that I did say that, then I'm all for it.

Umm what mooch is saying is that going TO the MVA ratings is not totally safe.
The Maximum Vaping Amperage is the CDR amps.

 

[Carambrda]

Umm what mooch is saying is that going TO the MVA ratings is not totally safe.

Nor is it totally safe to go to the CDR. That's just because going to zero amps is not totally safe either.

The Maximum Vaping Amperage is the CDR amps.

I have said it before, and will keep saying it... if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.

<--- same green color as my VTC5A batteries.

 

[The Cromwell]

Nor is it totally safe to go to the CDR. That's just because going to zero amps is not totally safe either.

True, we could be struck by a meteorite at any moment.

 

[Carambrda]

True, we could be struck by a meteorite at any moment.

Not trying to piss anyone off or anything, but I just couldn't help myself,

 

[The Cromwell]

Safe?
As long as you do not drain a LI battery faster than it's CDR rate it SHOULD not vent or blow yer face of or anything like that.
Might kinda soften up a plastic mod or burn yer finners though since they do get warm with a sustained discharge at their CDR.

NOTHING is totally safe.

They even had war in Heaven.
Must have been over taxes to pay for the gold pavers?

 

[Fudgey Finger]

Umm what mooch is saying is that going TO the MVA ratings is not totally safe.
The Maximum Vaping Amperage is the CDR amps.

The way I understand it is that if you are drawing amps to the MVA you aren't crossing a threshold of safe to unsafe. But if there was a malfunction on the device that caused it to continually discharge, the cell would heat to an unsafe temperature and possibly vent. I understand why he wants to remove the MVA rating, but just because he removed them doesn't suddenly make drawing those amps unsafe.

Mooch also says that going over a batteries CDR can be fine in certain circumstances. It is up to each one of us to decide what is an acceptable level of risk. But yeah it probably is a good idea to remove the MVA if people are using that as CDR.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

 

[The Cromwell]

The way I understand it is that if you are drawing amps to the MVA you aren't crossing a threshold of safe to unsafe. But if there was a malfunction on the device that caused it to continually discharge, the cell would heat to an unsafe temperature and possibly vent. I understand why he wants to remove the MVA rating, but just because he removed them doesn't suddenly make drawing those amps unsafe.

Mooch also says that going over a batteries CDR can be fine in certain circumstances. It is up to each one of us to decide what is an acceptable level of risk. But yeah it probably is a good idea to remove the MVA if people are using that as CDR.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

I think that Mooch finally realized that his MVA rating was similar to the pulse ratings that manufacturers stick on their cells.
I had always wondered about that and given the opportunity would have discussed it with Mooch.
Repeatedly going over the CDR of a battery will accelerate the internal damage done to the cell and may make it more prone to failure and venting.

If a battery runs say 65C on the outer case at it's CDR the core of the battery is noticeably hotter.
And this becomes more of an issue as the diameter of the battery increases.

 

[Carambrda]

I think that Mooch finally realized that his MVA rating was similar to the pulse ratings that manufacturers stick on their cells.
I had always wondered about that and given the opportunity would have discussed it with Mooch.
Repeatedly going over the CDR of a battery will accelerate the internal damage done to the cell and may make it more prone to failure and venting.

If a battery runs say 65C on the outer case at it's CDR the core of the battery is noticeably hotter.
And this becomes more of an issue as the diameter of the battery increases.

You are entirely missing the point. I go above that which used to be the MVA rating for my batteries, but at the same time also I make sure the battery temperature never goes above 45°C (113°F) as well as I make sure it never goes up very rapidly so the core of the battery does not overheat so easily... remember Sony tested the VTC5A by pulsing it at 100 amps so if you're going to address the safety then you're going to have to talk about what your definition of "pulsing" is because else you would be better off discussing carrots instead.

 

[Whiskey]

As always, Thank-you @Mooch for posting very valuable information to help vapers better understand battery safety, sorry to see the thread go off the way it did, once again thank you for being on top with your battery knowledge and sharing that with us. I will DEF share the new tables you so kindly provided.

 

[Fudgey Finger]

As always, Thank-you @Mooch for posting very valuable information to help vapers better understand battery safety, sorry to see the thread go off the way it did, once again thank you for being on top with your battery knowledge and sharing that with us. I will DEF share the new tables you so kindly provided.

Go off into a discussion about his MVA rating? Yeah what a shame...

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

 

[Whiskey]

Not trying to piss anyone off or anything, but I just couldn't help myself,

I have said it before, and will keep saying it... if my uncle had tits, he'd be my aunt.

<--- same green color as my VTC5A batteries.

 

[The Cromwell]

You are entirely missing the point. I go above that which used to be the MVA rating for my batteries, but at the same time also I make sure the battery temperature never goes above 45°C (113°F) as well as I make sure it never goes up very rapidly so the core of the battery does not overheat so easily... remember Sony tested the VTC5A by pulsing it at 100 amps so if you're going to address the safety then you're going to have to talk about what your definition of "pulsing" is because else you would be better off discussing carrots instead.

You keep a thermometer on your batteries while you use them?

A battery ran at CRD discharge will get up to 65C or so.
And if the outside temperature of the battery is 65C or 45C the interterior temperature is higher.

All I am saying on this.
Circle you wagons if you want.
It will be a futile effort.

 

[Carambrda]

You keep a thermometer on your batteries while you use them?

No, I don't. Instead, I keep five thermometers on the battery... each thermometer is a biomechanical sensor that is electrochemically hooked up directly to my high end CPU through a high-bandwidth neural network system.

A battery ran at CRD discharge will get up to 65C or so.

My understanding of the CDR ratings is that it doesn't go above 83°C if discharged continuously. But that's also my point... it doesn't get discharged continuously, as my solidly programmed CPU task simply makes sure that it never does.

And if the outside temperature of the battery is 65C or 45C the interterior temperature is higher.

That factor is also adequately accounted for as it's been hardcoded into my CPU's internal firmware.

All I am saying on this.
Circle you wagons if you want.
It will be a futile effort.

Sorry, no wagons for me. Wagons are far too dangerous because their wheels can turn insanely fast.

 

[KingPin!]

The way I understand it is that if you are drawing amps to the MVA you aren't crossing a threshold of safe to unsafe. But if there was a malfunction on the device that caused it to continually discharge, the cell would heat to an unsafe temperature and possibly vent. I understand why he wants to remove the MVA rating, but just because he removed them doesn't suddenly make drawing those amps unsafe.

Mooch also says that going over a batteries CDR can be fine in certain circumstances. It is up to each one of us to decide what is an acceptable level of risk. But yeah it probably is a good idea to remove the MVA if people are using that as CDR.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

Exactly

Let’s not take the thread out of the spirit it was meant or who’s right or wrong previously....I personally see it as moving forward when giving new vapers advice in the forum it’s in all of our interests as a community here to advocate CDR as the limit especially if regulations in this area are possibly being looked at.

Even non members casually browsing read the posts of the forum as it’s public, so seeing conflicting views doesn’t help the cause and Moochs hard work for the community.

What people choose to do individually after is up to them and outside of our collective control.

Explaining the risks if asked just like fudgey did is not a bad idea to give context but it should end there not continue with broadcasting things like “it’s ok to push it, see I do it and I’m fine because....”

Just my 2 pence

 

[Deucesjack]

Thanks Mooch

@Carambrda - probably relevant for the advice you’ve been giving out

.

 

[mach1ne]

thanks for all the work you do @Mooch

 

[Carambrda]

Exactly

Let’s not take the thread out of the spirit it was meant or who’s right or wrong previously....I personally see it as moving forward when giving new vapers advice in the forum it’s in all of our interests as a community here to advocate CDR as the limit especially if regulations in this area are possibly being looked at.

Even non members casually browsing read the posts of the forum as it’s public, so seeing conflicting views doesn’t help the cause and Moochs hard work for the community.

What people choose to do individually after is up to them and outside of our collective control.

Explaining the risks if asked just like fudgey did is not a bad idea to give context but it should end there not continue with broadcasting things like “it’s ok to push it, see I do it and I’m fine because....”

Just my 2 pence

Just to be clear, I never said it's OK to push it. Instead, everyone should decide for him/herself how far to take it so the reason I'm fine is simply because the risks have been explained to me carefully by Mooch as well as by some others, and, I have chosen to accept a certain level of risk that, for me, personally, I find perfectly acceptable so I am comfortable with it... notice I didn't say things like "it's OK to vape by drawing 70 amps from a single VTC5A" so there's a difference, as I don't advocate any hard numbers to anyone in any way whatsoever─also correct me if I'm wrong here, but, IIRC, Mooch doesn't advocate any hard numbers either because as a matter of true fact I heard him say that himself in front of a camera.

 

[Carambrda]

Thank you Mooch.

 

[Mooch]

Just to be clear, I never said it's OK to push it. Instead, everyone should decide for him/herself how far to take it so the reason I'm fine is simply because the risks have been explained to me carefully by Mooch as well as by some others, and, I have chosen to accept a certain level of risk that, for me, personally, I find perfectly acceptable so I am comfortable with it... notice I didn't say things like "it's OK to vape by drawing 70 amps from a single VTC5A" so there's a difference, as I don't advocate any hard numbers to anyone in any way whatsoever─also correct me if I'm wrong here, but, IIRC, Mooch doesn't advocate any hard numbers either because as a matter of true fact I heard him say that himself in front of a camera.

Technically there aren't any hard numbers. But the continuous discharge rating is all I will recommend, especially when a new vaper or mech user is asking for advice.

 

[Mattp169]

Technically there aren't any hard numbers. But the continuous discharge rating is all I will recommend, especially when a new vaper or mech user is asking for advice.

i will fully admit i never understood MVA.
but what i always thought i understood was amp draw creates internal heat, too much internal heat causes venting
so if that is the case then could one test batteries in such a way that you could state under x amp draw this battery reaches X temp(temperature at which venting occurs) after pulsing for this length of time or continuous discharge after this length of time

is so wouldn't that actually be more helpful to know

 

[Mooch]

i will fully admit i never understood MVA.
but what i always thought i understood was amp draw creates internal heat, too much internal heat causes venting
so if that is the case then could one test batteries in such a way that you could state under x amp draw this battery reaches X temp(temperature at which venting occurs) after pulsing for this length of time or continuous discharge after this length of time

is so wouldn't that actually be more helpful to know

But what happens when everyone starts using that as the starting point for their vaping?
We need to pull back with our recommendations. If someone chooses to go beyond that then they assume the risk.

 

[Mattp169]

But what happens when everyone starts using that as the starting point for their vaping?
We need to pull back with our recommendations. If someone chooses to go beyond that then they assume the risk.

i would not use those as recommendations, they are simply facts. make no recommendations just present facts

 

[Fudgey Finger]

i will fully admit i never understood MVA.
but what i always thought i understood was amp draw creates internal heat, too much internal heat causes venting
so if that is the case then could one test batteries in such a way that you could state under x amp draw this battery reaches X temp(temperature at which venting occurs) after pulsing for this length of time or continuous discharge after this length of time

is so wouldn't that actually be more helpful to know

In mooch's blog he addresses this. In the long list of batteries when you click on one it opens an entire breakdown of the cells capabilities and how he got to the numbers he did. At the bottom, in the comments, he shows the cell temperature under different discharge rates.

Sent from my LGL164VL using Tapatalk

 

[Carambrda]

i would not use those as recommendations, they are simply facts. make no recommendations just present facts

My other hobby is I bitchslap those who love to misrepresent facts.