Time to establish covert nicotine supply routes

[Giraut]

Like most of you fellow vapers, I feel the cold fingers of our corrupt governments slowly wrapping around us, about to squeeze and rob us of our freedom to vape. It's coming more or less fast depending on the country you live in, but it's coming alright. And there ain't much we can do about it: there are just too many parties with too many vested interests, way too much money and too much lobbying power to compete against.

So I reckon it's time to evaluate the possibility of going underground and dodging the law altogether, prohibition-era-style.

Fortunately, the only thing our powers-that-be will be able to ban, control or tax is nicotine. The rest can be procured elsewhere: vaping hardware can be found at hardware stores and electronics store, glycerin and PG can be found at the chemist or at any chemical products supplier, and food flavoring is readily available for cooking. As for putting it all together (making mods and atomizers, and mixing juices), plenty of people can do it, either as DIY projects for themselves, or in small workshops, selling the final products undeclared, or as parts that the end user can finish putting together.

For nicotine though, I have no idea where to get it from. I've heard from a friend who works for a pharma company that most of it comes from India, but I don't know which companies supply it, and more importantly, which of those companies (or employees) would be willing to sell nicotine on the black market.

Anybody knows where nic comes from?

 

[RMarcusY]

From the tobacco plant, a weed that grows almost anywhere.
Nicotine is also sold as an insecticide.

 

[Giraut]

From the tobacco plant, a weed that grows almost anywhere.

It takes a highly skilled chemist to extract nicotine from the plant. And I doubt a lof of people have the means or the desire to grow tobacco and harvest the crops.

Nicotine is also sold as an insecticide.

Not anymore. But even if it still was, I wouldn't be vaping it: I doubt it's pharma-grade

 

[kingworm]

it can also be harvested from the tomato plant and a few others in the nightshade family. not that im suggesting someone who doesnt know how try it. deadly nightshade isnt named that to be ironic.

 

[RMarcusY]

If the government over taxes our supplies, the black market will step up and sell you what you need.

 

[kingworm]

gotta love china.
honestly nicotine is the only thing the government can halt and even then it is possible to just steep it out of say pipe tobacco but that will hurt flavor.
i believe a tax is coming soon but when it does a workaround or loop hole will be found. just watch how many of the shops in your area suddenly find they are all native american blood lol

 

[Giraut]

If the government over taxes our supplies, the black market will step up and sell you what you need.

Yeah, but I think we should get cracking on this while the situation is still somewhat free and sane. The earlier we prepare for the vapocalypse, the better. I'd rather know whom to call when it happens than having to suddenly resort to buying from shady characters I've never talked to before when the emergency is here.

 

[kingworm]

i would say first would be a tax on eliquids at that point some sellers would sell a byob style where you just have to buy your own nicotine thus avoiding the tax. then you would just need one of those big jugs of stuff they sell online

 

[RMarcusY]

I've been off nicotine for several months now, my GF is almost off and most of my friends are using less and less nicotine.
I have found that nicotine was not that additive and I really don't need it. When people start sucking the nicotine out of tobacco, bell peppers, nicotine patches ,gum and other things that have nicotine in them we will start seeing news reports of people getting sick from overdosing on nicotine. The government should be happy with taxing vape supplies at the normal sales tax and be happy that medical cost will decrease as smokers convert to vaping or die from smoking.
I think we all agree that Uncle Sam should makes the sale of all vape gear/supplies limited to those over the age of 18.

 

[freemind]

It takes a highly skilled chemist to extract nicotine from the plant. And I doubt a lof of people have the means or the desire to grow tobacco and harvest the crops.



Not anymore. But even if it still was, I wouldn't be vaping it: I doubt it's pharma-grade

Growing tobacco is EASY. I've done it. Curing it is the hard work. I don't know if it even HAS to be cured, IF you are just extracting the nic. And I wonder, if there is enough nic in the stalk, to draw the nic from it too?

Were I to grow tobacco for nic, I would grow rustica exclusively. It has the highest nic content of all tobacco strains. It's also the harshest to taste.

To get nic, I'd imagine there is a very complicated filtering process to draw out the nic and leave the flavors out.

 

[kingworm]

what the government should and what it will be happy with are two very different things.

 

[Giraut]

what the government should and what it will be happy with are two very different things.

The government doesn't want people to quit smoking, because they have this habit of fucking spending money they don't have.

 

[RMarcusY]

http://www.howtodothings.com/hobbies/how-to-make-pure-nicotine
easy.

 

[freemind]

http://www.howtodothings.com/hobbies/how-to-make-pure-nicotine
easy.

Actually, I think that distilling it like moonshine is a better idea. The stove top method is leaving too many impurities in the nic, IMO.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Just a silly question.. why not stock up when you can afford to do so?
an extra bottle here and there.. make sure to rotate them in order..
shouldnt be too hard to do..

 

[Browncoat]

This is an interesting topic, and one that I've been putting together an article about for awhile now. How far are you willing to go if vaping is banned? Would you be willing to break the law and buy off the black market? I would.

Sadly, I think most vapers would just go back to smoking. It's the lesser of two evils. Others may be able to give it up completely...no vaping, no smoking. And I think a small percentage would be willing to go underground. With all the altcoin options to buy online and people who are able to DIY, there would be a very lucrative market available for those willing to risk it.

 

[Smoky Blue]

And I think a small percentage would be willing to go underground. With all the altcoin options to buy online and people who are able to DIY, there would be a very lucrative market available for those willing to risk it.

has to agree with ya there, @V4P3R eMAG

 

[RMarcusY]

I'm just pointing out, that IF the government over taxes nicotine, people will make their own. I've seen the same method using cig butts, nicotine patches. It will be like current black market item, unknown purity , unknown strength,​

 

[Browncoat]

It will be like current black market item, unknown purity , unknown strength

That's not really anything different than what we have now.

There are no regulations or standards that exist today. How do you know what you're vaping? Because it says so on the bottle label? You don't know where vendors are getting their ingredients from, what quality standards they have, or anything. A big portion of e-cig vendors aren't even a real business...they're just some friends working out of their garage.

We are essentially buying from the black market right now.

 

[M5amhan]

I'm just pointing out, that IF the government over taxes nicotine, people will make their own. I've seen the same method using cig butts, nicotine patches. It will be like current black market item, unknown purity , unknown strength,​

makes me sick just thinking about it, however i do believe that the government has learned what happens when they turn a legal drug illegal after prohibition and now seeing the effects of their war on drugs. ALWAYS does more damage due to how black markets operate against the grain. the last thing they will want to do is ban nic all together nor can they. i think they would rather tax it and make it extremely difficult to sell but still legal and thats what we need to fight against. they will classify it as liquid nicotine and everything will fall under that category whether its 6mg or 100mg. im with matt on this one threaten their jobs.

for the record, im one that will just quit everything if it comes down to it. im never going back to smoking

 

[M5amhan]

That's not really anything different than what we have now.

There are no regulations or standards that exist today. How do you know what you're vaping? Because it says so on the bottle label? You don't know where vendors are getting their ingredients from, what quality standards they have, or anything. A big portion of e-cig vendors aren't even a real business...they're just some friends working out of their garage.

We are essentially buying from the black market right now.

no we arent. a big factor in a black market is hiding, thats why its black. right now people can use labs to measure nic & handle pure 1000mg nic without unneccesary risk of being arrested, incentives to keep levels accurate through competition and fear of being outed and losing your customers, efficient shipping, packaging, labeling, and handling standards. we are buying from a free market right now, not a black market. huge difference in incentives and it shows.

these people working out of their garage have the opportunity to run an honest business and move up to a real location with customers behind them. that is a real free market without barriers to entry. very rare to see in america these days and we all see the amount of wealth it is creating for those participating. it used to be like this in every industry before government ruined it

 

[Zamazam]

That's not really anything different than what we have now.

There are no regulations or standards that exist today. How do you know what you're vaping? Because it says so on the bottle label? You don't know where vendors are getting their ingredients from, what quality standards they have, or anything. A big portion of e-cig vendors aren't even a real business...they're just some friends working out of their garage.

We are essentially buying from the black market right now.

I know what I am vaping because I make it myself. Every flavor I use has a lab analysis, or I don't use it. I've looked into starting a juice company with a B&M owner who is a good friend. After the financial analysis, I concluded that doing it the way I wanted (sanitary lab, staff chemist, measuring and bottling equipment) was a bit on the pricy side, a $300K investment minimum. When regulation and laws finally hit the industry, it won't be the garage based juice maker that gets zapped, it will be the wholesaler and distributors of Nicotine. The politicians and government are salivating like rabid dogs waiting to tax every aspect of vaping possible. Big Tobacco and Big Pharma are leading the tax initiatives.

 

[Browncoat]

no we arent. a big factor in a black market is hiding, thats why its black. right now people can use labs to measure nic & handle pure 1000mg nic without unneccesary risk of being arrested, incentives to keep levels accurate through competition and fear of being outed and losing your customers, efficient shipping, packaging, labeling, and handling standards. we are buying from a free market right now, not a black market. huge difference in incentives and it shows.

these people working out of their garage have the opportunity to run an honest business and move up to a real location with customers behind them. that is a real free market without barriers to entry. very rare to see in america these days and we all see the amount of wealth it is creating for those participating. it used to be like this in every industry before government ruined it

None of that changes anything. Or do you think there wouldn't be competition for a superior product on the black market? Nothing is going to go to hell simply because it would be illegal. Nothing changes from a quality standpoint, because no standards exist.

Got some wiring and soldering skills? Start up a box mod "business" out of your garage. How many people are selling these things on eBay, forums, or Facebook groups with no insurance, no business filing, no LLC, no tax reporting, and so on? They're breaking the law. By definition, it's black market. Black market doesn't mean that the goods themselves have to be illegal, it's the sales transaction that is illegal.

 

[M5amhan]

None of that changes anything. Or do you think there wouldn't be competition for a superior product on the black market? Nothing is going to go to hell simply because it would be illegal. Nothing changes from a quality standpoint, because no standards exist.

Got some wiring and soldering skills? Start up a box mod "business" out of your garage. How many people are selling these things on eBay, forums, or Facebook groups with no insurance, no business filing, no LLC, no tax reporting, and so on? They're breaking the law. By definition, it's black market. Black market doesn't mean that the goods themselves have to be illegal, it's the sales transaction that is illegal.

no there wont be the level of competition available in a free market where people can advertise, and put themselves out there for everyone to judge. it will become more about avoiding trouble, getting a product out at all, and building a customer base with word of mouth (getting a plug).

just because there aren't standards based on law doesnt mean there are no standards. because there is transparency and open competition, that breeds standards. people who dont abide by these standards go out of business because customers can take their business elsewhere easily. in a black market it would be more like "well ok since its right here right now and i need nic lets do it" market dynamics would definitely change. but i will agree standards can be practiced in a black market, there just has to be a lot of suppliers in a single location knowing they are competing with each other

 

[Giraut]

Just a silly question.. why not stock up when you can afford to do so?

Done already. I have several years' worth of supply in my freezer, and it's in rotation.

How far are you willing to go if vaping is banned?

All the way baby. Anything not to start smoking again.

Would you be willing to break the law and buy off the black market? I would

I'm willing to be part of the black market. I'm no chemist, so I couldn't make nic bases in my workshop. But if I could I would, without hesitation.

As for the rest (mods, electronics, tanks that can contain more juice than the law would allow...), that I can do, and I will happily supply the black market if it ever comes to that. And it wouldn't even be to make insane amounts of money either: I'd do it as a service to my fellow ex-smokers, and to stick it to the man. Unfair laws are meant to be broken.

 

[Browncoat]

As for the rest (mods, electronics, tanks that can contain more juice than the law would allow...), that I can do, and I will happily supply the black market if it ever comes to that.

Part of the reason I stick to tube mech mods is their long-term reliability. If e-cigs are banned, these mods will last forever. No electronics to worry about.

 

[Scooby]

I've been off nicotine for several months now, my GF is almost off and most of my friends are using less and less nicotine.
I have found that nicotine was not that additive and I really don't need it. When people start sucking the nicotine out of tobacco, bell peppers, nicotine patches ,gum and other things that have nicotine in them we will start seeing news reports of people getting sick from overdosing on nicotine. The government should be happy with taxing vape supplies at the normal sales tax and be happy that medical cost will decrease as smokers convert to vaping or die from smoking.
I think we all agree that Uncle Sam should makes the sale of all vape gear/supplies limited to those over the age of 18.

I agree with the age of 18. Where I live it's 21.