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Why Did a Harvard Study About E-Liquids Irk Some Vapers?

5150sick

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pulsevape

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love this.

“The consumer doesn’t have the information to make informed decisions,” Allen said

Well Allen are you mentally challenged?.....it is really quite simple if you are concerned.....ask the company for data, and if they refuse to give you the data.....DON"T USE THEIR FUCKING PRODUCT.....it's not a hard concept to wrap your head around. You are not owed the freedom to walk around the world being a mindless zombie.....you are required by life to use your fucking brain occasionally.

Ask Yourself why do people like this support medical vegtable matter... why do they not hold the smoking of a burning vegtable matter up to the same rigors and same health yardstick they do vaping...why do the call the smoking of the veggie "medical" and fear monger vaping....smoking any burning plant into your lungs is "not the healthist choice" why do they not require all medical plant matter shops ne shut down until all of it can be taken in pill form....
 

CurlyxCracker

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love this.

“The consumer doesn’t have the information to make informed decisions,” Allen said

Well Allen are you mentally challenged?.....it is really quite simple if you are concerned.....ask the company for data, and if they refuse to give you the data.....DON"T USE THEIR FUCKING PRODUCT.....it's not a hard concept to wrap your head around. You are not owed the freedom to walk around the world being a mindless zombie.....you are required by life to use your fucking brain occasionally.

Ask Yourself why do people like this support medical vegtable matter... why do they not hold the smoking of a burning vegtable matter up to the same rigors and same health yardstick they do vaping...why do the call the smoking of the veggie "medical" and fear monger vaping....smoking any burning plant into your lungs is "not the healthist choice" why do they not require all medical plant matter shops ne shut down until all of it can be taken in pill form....
Problem is, vendors lie (5 pawns?), vendors make mistakes (this vendor I won't mention because they did rectify the situation and have changed their name and I think someone else is using something close ) and ship out higher concentrate of nic. Most say DIY.... What about FW and their lies. It's easy to say, "well don't use them" but, with conflicting stories it'd be easy for a user not in the know to get confused.
Just my 2 cents here...
 

5150sick

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Problem is, vendors lie (5 pawns?), vendors make mistakes (this vendor I won't mention because they did rectify the situation and have changed their name and I think someone else is using something close ) and ship out higher concentrate of nic. Most say DIY.... What about FW and their lies. It's easy to say, "well don't use them" but, with conflicting stories it'd be easy for a user not in the know to get confused.
Just my 2 cents here...

In an unregulated market you are to expect an unregulated product.
 

pulsevape

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Problem is, vendors lie (5 pawns?), vendors make mistakes (this vendor I won't mention because they did rectify the situation and have changed their name and I think someone else is using something close ) and ship out higher concentrate of nic. Most say DIY.... What about FW and their lies. It's easy to say, "well don't use them" but, with conflicting stories it'd be easy for a user not in the know to get confused.
Just my 2 cents here...
did 5 pawns make a mistake.. or did.they fucking lie......you have to make your own decision I've made mine....how many food recalls are there every year ,and food is heavily regulated.....how many automobile recalls are there every year and their industry is heavily regulated....in the midst of vaping there are those who are gonna make a fast buck and appeal to people's greed, on the same hand there are companies like Flavor Art who are gonna see they are in it for the long haul and they are going to give the public not only the information they want Flavor Art went and designed flavorings just for the vaping communities and their concerns....how many thread have you seen on this board of someone asking...."where can I buy high quality juice for 2 cents a ml".....really..... where in your life experince do you get high quality for dirt cheap anything.....people that believe they cn get something for nothing are the ones who are going to get took.
I have never seen any group of consumers of anything go to the extremes that vapers have gone to create a safe product....the entire community polices itself to much higher standards than the paid off whores who inhabit the FDA
 

CurlyxCracker

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did 5 pawns make a mistake.. or did.they fucking lie......you have to make your own decision I've made mine....how many food recalls are there every year ,and food is heavily regulated.....how many automobile recalls are there every year and their industry is heavily regulated....in the midst of vaping there are those who are gonna make a fast buck and appeal to people's greed, on the same hand there are companies like Flavor Art who are gonna see they are in it for the long haul and they are going to give the public not only the information they want Flavor Art went and designed flavorings just for the vaping communities and their concerns....how many thread have you seen on this board of someone asking...."where can I buy high quality juice for 2 cents a ml".....really..... where in your life experince do you get high quality for dirt cheap anything.....people that believe they cn get something for nothing are the ones who are going to get took.
I have never seen any group of consumers of anything go to the extremes that vapers have gone to create a safe product....the entire community polices itself to much higher standards than the paid off whores who inhabit the FDA
Oh, they were the ones I was speaking to when I said they were lying. I think that's pretty obvious. But tbh, we're they a quick "cash grab" company? Imo, No. They have been around a while and made major $, still probably are. Flavor Art is doing the right thing, hands down my favorite flavoring manufacturer. But, there are 3rd party vendors who sell kitchen magic flavors without specifying that they are, granted if you're using FA you probably know what's what but still a valid point is made when you consider the overall acceptance of FA, a new DIYer may be deceived by a 3rd party vendor...
FW is getting better, but not long ago some of their flavors were "tested" by them and came back free of diacetyl and it's other culprits. But third party testing showed that was false, again some people may see initial testing and stop looking, and be deceived.
We may try to police ourselves, but other than "outing" companies what comes of it? Granted 5P has a lawsuit in the works, who knows what will come of it? And sure does shed negative light on the industry, No? Take your example of the automotive industry, how much do you think those recalls cost them? And they don't need to go to court with consumers to pay that out. And the food industry, look at Chipotle, numerous restaurants closed, which means mass loss of revenue for them. Both examples are BEFORE civil action is taken for damages to consumers. We don't have that in vaping, manufacturers are not held responsible. Which why imo, we need regulations, just not as they are written currently, I want them held responsible, not make vaping go away or stuck with vuse/Blu ecigs...
 

CurlyxCracker

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I have a simple question for you and see if you can answer it truthfull and fully....what do you think vaping would like today, if the goverment had regulated it from day one.
Cigalikes and flashlight mods. But that's not the case my friend. There has been developments, major ones. Devices are out there and now we have Standalone chips anyone with some soldering/dremel skills can make a box mod. So even if regulations pass and 99% of vapor products are off the market vaping will still be there unregulated and on the "black market".
 

pulsevape

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Cigalikes and flashlight mods. But that's not the case my friend. There has been developments, major ones. Devices are out there and now we have Standalone chips anyone with some soldering/dremel skills can make a box mod. So even if regulations pass and 99% of vapor products are off the market vaping will still be there unregulated and on the "black market".
exactlly given freedom great things happen...given an illegitamte and psychotic goverment which I think we can all agree is what are goverment is..stagnation and devolution.....and no the black market will only make things worse..they will have total control over your ability to get clean high quality nicotine, people will start vaping bathtub nic, or some crap smuggled in from Mexico. sure alot of people will buy the exohrbantly taxed legal juice, but a helluva alot will buy some black market witches brew.....it makes far more sense for the vaping community to set their own standards and to create their own certification system...fuck the goverment...these are the same psychotic assholes who sit and watch people get killed and say ...."What does it really matter"...who get us involved in wars across the globe......who put the entire country's saftey at risk and import people who can't be verified just to fill the DNC voter rolls...who spend us into bankruptcy.....they have demonstrated NOTHING that leads me to believe they have the general welfare of the people in mind.

As for the benifits of the goverment...In afgahnistan the Taliban, built roads,they opened schools, they had hospitals, hell ISIS has free medical insurance....and the only thing they asked for in return was total aboslute total control over life and death.....helluva deal....Our goverment isn't simpley somewhat corrupt....it is massively corrupt and illegitamte.
 
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5150sick

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5Pawms went above and beyond the call of stupidity when they decided to say AP was an important flavoring additive and they feel it is not unsafe to add to their eliquids.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150815225352/http://fivepawns.com/five-pawns-test-results/


Five Pawns – Be Informed
29 Jun 20155 Commentsin Newsby Frank Nichols

There is currently no standardized or approved methodology for testing e-liquids. That needs to change. We want to assure our retailers and customers that Five Pawns is 100% dedicated to working to develop a standard methodology by which all e-liquids can be tested and held accountable.

So they are going to make their own standard methodology? Should be pretty easy to adhere to when they will become the judge, trial, and jury on the matter.

This week, it came to our attention that fraudulent claims have been made about our e-liquids. We take these accusations very seriously, not only for ourselves but the industry as a whole. It is reckless and liable to post test results on products using a non-validated method. Therefore, we have issued a Cease and Desist in the matter and are aggressively pursuing all legal remedy necessary to correct the public record.

So only THEIR method is the proper and correct one? Seems legit...

Since our founding in 2012, Five Pawns has been dedicated to creating the highest quality vapor liquids on the market. When diacetyl was raised as a concern, we moved to source solely diacetyl-free ingredients, only to discover that trace amounts of diacetyl can naturally occur in vapor liquids, just as with beer and wine, and some fruits such as strawberries. TEST RESULTS (Content updated 07/21/2015)

In response to the diacetyl concern in 2014, some vapor industry flavor suppliers began using acetyl propionyl (AP), Also known as 2,3 pentanedione, as a substitute for diacetyl. While AP has not been linked to any health concerns related specifically to vaping, and it is not banned by the FDA or any International body, its relative safety or harm is unknown. (Content updated 07/01/2015)


So since it's not banned they will do whatever the fuck they want. Seems legit...


Further, we feel that efforts to translate industrial exposure limits to vaping exposure limits are flawed. It is clearly not the same. (One example of many, in an industrial setting, every inhale 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week contains constant airborne particles. With vaping, fresh air is taken in between puffs.) If the industrial comparison were true, one would expect a population of individuals becoming sick from vaping, but this is not the case. We are not aware of any publicly documented cases of respiratory issues specifically related to vaping AP or diacetyl at the levels currently in e-liquids. Many websites and blogs discuss this exact issue. We are confident that studies and future data will show inhalation from vaping e-liquids should not be compared to industrial exposure limits. (Content updated 07/01/2015)


In 2014, we contracted with two independent testing laboratories to analyze each of our 10 core flavors and our latest limited edition flavor.

TEST RESULTS (Content updated 07/21/2015)

So last year we moved to formalize the standardization of our manufacturing processes. This includes incorporating a gravimetric pouring process to our production to ensure greater accuracy of ingredients, and moving our mixing, steeping and bottling of liquids in an ISO 8 clean room to ensure consistency and purity.


Blah, Blah, Blah, no mention of keeping the eliquid diketone free.

In the meantime, it’s important that consumers can enjoy the Five Pawns flavor experience with the highest level of confidence. Five Pawns does not feel there is any concern with diacetyl or AP in our e-liquids at current levels. AP can be an important flavor enhancer for flavor profiles that are creamy in nature, and is used widely in the food and beverage industries.

So now we get to the point, they are adding AP to their eliquid as "an important flavor enhancer"

To satisfy any consumers who are looking for a line of e-liquids that are completely diacetyl and AP-free, this summer we are introducing a new PG-alternative line of vapor liquids that will deliver the same legendary flavor profiles that Five Pawns is known for, while offering an alternative to people with PG sensitivity. The new line of vapor liquids will also solve the flavor problem for those who have sacrificed taste in pursuit of greater vapor production.


So admitting that their current eliquid line has (lots of) diketones that are important flavor enhancers they decide to use a new product besides PG and VG to make vapor?

Sounds like a genius idea....
Unless there is is a reason eliquid makers do not use a "PG alternative" then 5 or 6 people decide they were "deceived" and blame their lung disease on this new alternative instead of the 40 years of smoking and sue Five Pawns.
Almost seems like deja vu huh?


Five Pawns is dedicated to quality and is committed to providing an alternative for those wanting a pleasurable vice with less consequence. We will continue to produce our current Five Pawns flavor profiles, constantly improving our products with ongoing testing and adherence to any regulations or testing standards required by any regulatory body in the future.


Sounds like a great idea while thinking that they will be inventing the testing standards

Sorry, I just don't trust these fuckers - 5150
 
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Time

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Cigalikes and flashlight mods. But that's not the case my friend. There has been developments, major ones. Devices are out there and now we have Standalone chips anyone with some soldering/dremel skills can make a box mod. So even if regulations pass and 99% of vapor products are off the market vaping will still be there unregulated and on the "black market".

LOL. You say regulation is needed and then say "black market"?

You don't think there will be black market juice with diketones? Making juice is much easier than soldering and dremel.

I'm stocked up so I can provide black market juice. No, I won't be doing any testing nor making any diketone free claims.
 

CurlyxCracker

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exactlly given freedom great things happen...given an illegitamte and psychotic goverment which I think we can all agree is what are goverment is..stagnation and devolution.....and no the black market will only make things worse..they will have total control over your ability to get clean high quality nicotine, people will start vaping bathtub nic, or some crap smuggled in from Mexico. sure alot of people will buy the exohrbantly taxed legal juice, but a helluva alot will buy some black market witches brew.....it makes far more sense for the vaping community to set their own standards and to create their own certification system...fuck the goverment...these are the same psychotic assholes who sit and watch people get killed and say ...."What does it really matter"...who get us involved in wars across the globe......who put the entire country's saftey at risk and import people who can't be verified just to fill the DNC voter rolls...who spend us into bankruptcy.....they have demonstrated NOTHING that leads me to believe they have the general welfare of the people in mind.

As for the benifits of the goverment...In afgahnistan the Taliban, built roads,they opened schools, they had hospitals, hell ISIS has free medical insurance....and the only thing they asked for in return was total aboslute total control over life and death.....helluva deal....Our goverment isn't simpley somewhat corrupt....it is massively corrupt and illegitamte.
Oh I agree, the black market will introduce inferior products as they will go under the regulatory radar.
But fact of the matter is the government wants in. Plain and simple. They will be in. This is an industry they see a lot of tax dollars in.
These companies need held responsible. And who's going to do it? Obviously not "us", this "self policed" industry... They don't have to adhere to jack squat. All we do as a "self policed" industry is wait for someone with the funds (not I, I sure as hell can't afford it) to get an independent lab tests done on one of the MANY eliquid, which odds are is only going to happen to the larger companies like 5P, not your budget lines, and then point a finger and say shame on you. That's it. Again I know of the lawsuit, but who's to say what will come of it.
 

CurlyxCracker

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LOL. You say regulation is needed and then say "black market"?

You don't think there will be black market juice with diketones? Making juice is much easier than soldering and dremel.

I'm stocked up so I can provide black market juice. No, I won't be doing any testing nor making any diketone free claims.
It is needed. Just not to the extent it is written. That "black market" statement was solely based on regulations as they are written now. That's kind of my point here, No regulations = things like 5P, over regulations = things worse than the Istick explosions. There needs to be a middle ground. Didn't work with alcohol or a certain product as we are seeing in some states now. Both are kind of good examples of "middle ground"
 

pulsevape

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Oh I agree, the black market will introduce inferior products as they will go under the regulatory radar.
But fact of the matter is the government wants in. Plain and simple. They will be in. This is an industry they see a lot of tax dollars in.
These companies need held responsible. And who's going to do it? Obviously not "us", this "self policed" industry... They don't have to adhere to jack squat. All we do as a "self policed" industry is wait for someone with the funds (not I, I sure as hell can't afford it) to get an independent lab tests done on one of the MANY eliquid, which odds are is only going to happen to the larger companies like 5P, not your budget lines, and then point a finger and say shame on you. That's it. Again I know of the lawsuit, but who's to say what will come of it.
Companies will gladly test and adhere if it buys them the certification of the community...all regulationn does is create a monopoly a cartel in which only the rich can survive...helll Exxon and Mobile LUUUUUV regulations they actually fund enviromental groups. because it keeps smaller companies who don't have their access to capital out of their markets....it ensures only the uberrich get to play in the game....
 

pulsevape

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It is needed. Just not to the extent it is written. That "black market" statement was solely based on regulations as they are written now. That's kind of my point here, No regulations = things like 5P, over regulations = things worse than the Istick explosions. There needs to be a middle ground. Didn't work with alcohol or a certain product as we are seeing in some states now. Both are kind of good examples of "middle ground"
middle ground works with an honest goverment....you have to face the fact that the banks and corporations don't just influence our goverment, they fucking own it.
The Chamber of Commerce think they are above immigration law and tax law and enviromental laws, Our President feels he is above the Consitution, our congress feels it's above the people, our Supremem Court feels it's above God....and you want the people to OBEY the law...
 
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It is needed. Just not to the extent it is written. That "black market" statement was solely based on regulations as they are written now. That's kind of my point here, No regulations = things like 5P, over regulations = things worse than the Istick explosions. There needs to be a middle ground. Didn't work with alcohol or a certain product as we are seeing in some states now. Both are kind of good examples of "middle ground"

Even moderate regulation will inflate the price of regulated juice. That will make it profitable for me for black market juice since I won't paying to meet regulation or tax. I can sell much cheaper than the regulated folks and still make bank.
 

CurlyxCracker

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Companies will gladly test and adhere if it buys them the certification of the community...all regulationn does is create a monopoly a cartel in which only the rich can survive...helll Exxon and Mobile LUUUUUV regulations they actually fund enviromental groups. because it keeps smaller companies who don't have their access to capital out of their markets....it ensures only the uberrich get to play in the game....
That is why as written, 99% of vapor products will dissappear from the market in 1 year, again middle ground.
Edit but with good business practices some of these companies should be able to adhere to these regulations.
 
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CurlyxCracker

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Even moderate regulation will inflate the price of regulated juice. That will make it profitable for me for black market juice since I won't paying to meet regulation or tax. I can sell much cheaper than the regulated folks and still make bank.
I too have a stock of nic, which is what will see the tax, not the flavors or pg/vg. Let's say you have a 5 year stock for yourself, when you start supporting countless others, you're looking at having to grab more inside a year, where do you get it?
 

Time

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I too have a stock of nic, which is what will see the tax, not the flavors or pg/vg. Let's say you have a 5 year stock for yourself, when you start supporting countless others, you're looking at having to grab more inside a year, where do you get it?

It's hard to say how things will play out. I don't think DIY, thus the black market, will get hit very hard at first. There should be plenty of opportunity to pick up more nic in the next couple years. At the very least, there is China.
 

CurlyxCracker

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It's hard to say how things will play out. I don't think DIY, thus the black market, will get hit very hard at first. There should be plenty of opportunity to pick up more nic in the next couple years. At the very least, there is China.
Oh after regulation is passed even in present form we'll have at least a year to stock up
 

pulsevape

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Oh after regulation is passed even in present form we'll have at least a year to stock up
You really think so....apart from the juice makers and all the DIY guys and the people seeing an angle on stocking up and reselling...availability will be non existint......how long before you think regulations will be enacted.
 

CurlyxCracker

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You really think so....apart from the juice makers and all the DIY guys and the people seeing an angle on stocking up and reselling...availability will be non existint......how long before you think regulations will be enacted.
That was meant to say at least we'll have a year to stock up. Yes towards the end resources will probably be scarce or we may have companies marking down nic in effort to liquidate before the regulations are in effect. So could go one of two ways. It won't be the day following regulations adapted by the government, it won't be immediate, everyone will have a chance to know what/when things are happening.
Edit: And this is worst case scenario, saying regulation will be passed as is.
 

5150sick

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I have a few liters of nic stashed in the freezer and used them from oldest to newest replacing one when one is gone.
VG and flavoring is used for other stuff so stopping that would be cutting off the food and shampoo industry and that won't work.
China will never stop shipping product, ever.
They ship fake rolex watches and coach bags through customs all day every day and neither of those are legal.
 

CurlyxCracker

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I have a few liters of nic stashed in the freezer and used them from oldest to newest replacing one when one is gone.
VG and flavoring is used for other stuff so stopping that would be cutting off the food and shampoo industry and that won't work.
China will never stop shipping product, ever.
They ship fake rolex watches and coach bags through customs all day every day and neither of those are legal.
Maybe not you specifically, But if you were to become a "black market" seller those liters would diminish fairly quickly. Then you pay the tax to "re up" or get shady product elsewhere. And as for China knockoffs, while I agree more make it in than don't but getting caught with shipments of illegal goods won't hurt China, it will however, hurt you. Nicotine won't become illegal though,just taxed. Nicotine is used in other things than e liquid. Although not as vast as vg/pg and flavorings.
 

5150sick

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Maybe not you specifically, But if you were to become a "black market" seller those liters would diminish fairly quickly. Then you pay the tax to "re up" or get shady product elsewhere. And as for China knockoffs, while I agree more make it in than don't but getting caught with shipments of illegal goods won't hurt China, it will however, hurt you. Nicotine won't become illegal though,just taxed. Nicotine is used in other things than e liquid. Although not as vast as vg/pg and flavorings.

I know a China vendor right now who ships 99% freebase nicotine and declares it to customs as "VG"
You think this will change post regulation?
Me neither.;)

Edit: I'd also never become a black market seller but I would and will hook up friend in need.
 

f1r3b1rd

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I have a simple question for you and see if you can answer it truthfull and fully....what do you think vaping would like today, if the goverment had regulated it from day one.
I would still be smoking
 

f1r3b1rd

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I know a China vendor right now who ships 99% freebase nicotine and declares it to customs as "VG"
You think this will change post regulation?
Me neither.;)

Edit: I'd also never become a black market seller but I would and will hook up friend in need.
5150 Capone
 

BigNasty

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As far as the article, It irks me because it was 100% bullshit. So the media keeps puking it back up like it biblical fact written in stone.

Stupid cunt who wrote that article is just being god damned lazy adding nothing new but pure plagiarism. She needs fired.
 

CurlyxCracker

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I know a China vendor right now who ships 99% freebase nicotine and declares it to customs as "VG"
You think this will change post regulation?
Me neither.;)

Edit: I'd also never become a black market seller but I would and will hook up friend in need.
Can you tell me the name of the vendor? Here or pm? Also the average DIYer should NOT be using undiluted nicotine. And it's A LOT more prone to oxidation. Also China nic is harsh lol
 

Time

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I know a China vendor right now who ships 99% freebase nicotine and declares it to customs as "VG"
You think this will change post regulation?
Me neither.;)

Edit: I'd also never become a black market seller but I would and will hook up friend in need.

Yep, I'm aware of that one. The vendor of last resort, lol.

There are allot of vendors, some in the US, that never get any play here at VU. I don't think getting pure nic will be an issue.
 

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