Chemicals

[jae]

Hey, since i know next to nothing about flavorings and materials and chemistry, can somebody knowledgeable chime in and tell us all about the different ingredients to watch out for, and what flavorings in which they'd most likely be found? And also materials which can be hazardous? It seems about every 90 days or so somebody somewhere pops up and says to steer clear of one thing and everybody yammers about it for a bit and then it's like we all forget about it and go back to vaping that exact thing anyway. I think if we're going to be successful in keeping vaping Free-as-in-freedom, the best bet is to educate ourselves up real good AND work to make sure that vendors aren't using those things which are known to be definitely risky or outright harmful.

 

[Shirles]

Can't believe nobody chimed in on this!
I've never heard of anything harmful being in our e-juice (other than nicotine of course)
But the main ingredients you'll find in most e-juice, is vegetable glycerin, which is just a sugary extract from plants; (delivers more flavor, and vapor and is also much thicker than propylene)
Propylene glycol, a much thinner liquid, also with a mildly sweet taste, provides more of a "throat hit" to get that cigarette sensation.
those two chemicals are the main ingredient. a 15 ml bottle will contain about 14ml of vegetable glycerin, or propylene glycol, the other 1 ml will be diluted nicotine, distilled water, and flavorings. all of these ingredients are considered safe, except nicotine of course

 

[AmandaD]

Can't believe nobody chimed in on this!
I've never heard of anything harmful being in our e-juice (other than nicotine of course)
But the main ingredients you'll find in most e-juice, is vegetable glycerin, which is just a sugary extract from plants; (delivers more flavor, and vapor and is also much thicker than propylene)
Propylene glycol, a much thinner liquid, also with a mildly sweet taste, provides more of a "throat hit" to get that cigarette sensation.
those two chemicals are the main ingredient. a 15 ml bottle will contain about 14ml of vegetable glycerin, or propylene glycol, the other 1 ml will be diluted nicotine, distilled water, and flavorings. all of these ingredients are considered safe, except nicotine of course

Most of the juice I used to buy was actually 50pg/50vg and probably close to 20% flavoring. The general consensus at the moment is that a number of flavorings contain diacetyl and related diketones, which should probably be avoided in large amounts. Commonly found in custards, but also in tobacco and other flavorings (gives that buttery taste).

 

[EthelMaltol]

There are active threads here about diacetyl. As far as nicotine being harmful, I don't agree with that. There have been several studies that show it s very helpful for parkinsons disease, alzheimers/dementia, and also adhd, I think. On a risk scale, it is comparable to caffeine. No one is suggesting closing down Starbux or Dunkins...

 

[AmandaD]

There are active threads here about diacetyl. As far as nicotine being harmful, I don't agree with that. There have been several studies that show it s very helpful for parkinsons disease, alzheimers/dementia, and also adhd, I think. On a risk scale, it is comparable to caffeine. No one is suggesting closing down Starbux or Dunkins...

Absolutely - I agree with you 100% about the nicotine!

 

[EthelMaltol]

Amanda, the paranoid side of me says that it is so good for us, they don't want us to have it! Add in the pg studies where we are less likely to suffer from asthma and get respiratory illnesses and down go the pharmaceutical stocks! I just saw on twitter that ppl have been talking about some recent studies demonizing caffeine now.

 

[Number3124]

I just saw on twitter that ppl have been talking about some recent studies demonizing caffeine now.

They shall never have my coffee!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness I wouldn't be able to function without caffeine. I have to keep my brain saturated with the stuff to even sleep. If I don't have any caffeine in my system I look sort of like a zombie that can't even begin to think about how to do anything other than breath and occasionally blink. I can't even sleep without it.

Anyway, I think it's fair to say I know what the most addictive substance on the planet is.

 

[kingworm]

There are active threads here about diacetyl. As far as nicotine being harmful, I don't agree with that. There have been several studies that show it s very helpful for parkinsons disease, alzheimers/dementia, and also adhd, I think. On a risk scale, it is comparable to caffeine. No one is suggesting closing down Starbux or Dunkins...

nicotine may have some positive effects i will not deny that but denial that nicotine is harmful is kind of silly. nicotine is a poisonous chemical it was at one point used as a insecticide and has a fairly small lethal dose. one reason we arent harmed more by it is that the lungs are not particularly effective at delivering nicotine to the bloodstream. another is our built up tolerance for it as smokers/vapers. while i do believe it is safe to vape by no means is it comparable to caffeine . a lethal caffeine overdose is 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass. while a lethal nicotine dose is between 30 and 500 mg total. the numbers vary widely and tolerance plays a big factor in both cases . not bashing vaping or coffee but they are both harmful or lethal at a certain extreme point.

 

[CDub]

I'm so done with studies, for every study that says something is bad, another study comes out and says it's good. The fact is, nicotine is nicotine, PG is PG and together, it's far safer than tobacco, ALL the studies agree with that.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Food for thought..

Can anyone say how many deaths related to ecigs, compared to smoking?

 

[CDub]

According to news sources quoting the AAPCC, there have been two deaths. One by a man in 2012 who injected liquid nicotine in his veins and one this past December by a child who ingested e-juice. Annually, an average of 40k people die from causes related to regular cigarette smoking.

And while the percentage of poisonings or "exposures" to e-liquid are on the rise, the actual numbers of harmful exposures (kids to e-liquid) is staggering lower than even that of kids ingesting cosmetics. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-amy-fairchild/liquid-death-from-ecigare_b_5044145.html

 

[Smoky Blue]

Im referring to people actually vaping..

no batteries, injections or failing to watch out for your kids..
(I should have been more clear, I am sorry!)

 

[CDub]

Well, it's an industry and product that's less than 12 years old, with the first e-cig invented in China in 2003. Everything I've read just says there's not enough data, but no, there have beeen zero reports of deaths or illnesses from actual vaping.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Well, it's an industry and product that's less than 12 years old, with the first e-cig invented in China in 2003. Everything I've read just says there's not enough data, but no, there have beeen zero reports of deaths or illnesses from actual vaping.

and one would think, with China vaping for much longer than us in the states, something would have popped up by now

 

[kingworm]

if someone died of vaping in china the cause of death would be reported as " died of lazy no work ethic. shames his family"

 

[NoNicNick]

Stick with the companies who have something to lose. Suicide Bunny (#1 juice) posted a rebuttal to claims that its juice has
diacetyl in it. Other juice makers might not care.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Stick with the companies who have something to lose. Suicide Bunny (#1 juice) posted a rebuttal to claims that its juice has
diacetyl in it. Other juice makers might not care.

mmm there is more than just Suicide Bunny that gives a damn

for more info and companies that are testing/have tested.. try looking at this fb group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/314609708719483/

 

[Taajsgpm]

Hey, since i know next to nothing about flavorings and materials and chemistry, can somebody knowledgeable chime in and tell us all about the different ingredients to watch out for, and what flavorings in which they'd most likely be found? And also materials which can be hazardous? It seems about every 90 days or so somebody somewhere pops up and says to steer clear of one thing and everybody yammers about it for a bit and then it's like we all forget about it and go back to vaping that exact thing anyway. I think if we're going to be successful in keeping vaping Free-as-in-freedom, the best bet is to educate ourselves up real good AND work to make sure that vendors aren't using those things which are known to be definitely risky or outright harmful.

I feel the same way people seem to forget that analogs have 7000 chemicals ,but who s talkingabout that ?

 

[Stinger5313]

Food for thought..

Can anyone say how many deaths related to ecigs, compared to smoking?

you may have a point but e cigs have only been around in the USA since what, '06 or '07? say '06. so for about 9 years... before people get cancer, copd, emphysema, and so on, they are smokers for a lot longer than that on average. We know ecigs are safer than analogs but we truly dont know the long term effects. ecigs havent been popular since '06, but rather really got big just in the last couple years. my point is while nobody has died (that we have heard of) YET, in years to come there very well could be deaths from e cigs. there quite possibly COULD be new diseases or mutations from e cigs... this is all uncharted territory. we just dont know.

lets look at what we do know... but first i want to say, for the record, i support vaping lol

we know that some e liquids have heavy metals in them. we know that some coils and wicking materials produce heavy metals in the vapor. all in all we know that largely, vapors are breathing in heavy metals. some studies say its worse than cigs some say its much better. i would think it would depend on individual circumstance (type of atty, type of liquid, wattage, etc.). lets say its less heavy metals than cigs....

...ok well thats great but we are still breathing heavy metals. and thats still not good. Heavy metals have been linked to serious and horrible diseases like ALS which is a degenerative disease that kills your motor neurons making your muscles unable to move. you slowly become a vegetable and eventually die, usually from respiratory failure. this happened to my uncle years ago. life expectancy s between 2-5 years on average.

ok, so my risk of ALS and other degenerative diseases linked to heavy metals is lower with vaping than with cigarettes but im still not feeling good about it....because living as a vegetable for 3 years before i finally suffocate and die doesnt really sound appealing to me.

heavy metals are linked to cancer, heart disease, reproductive harm, kidney disease, and more. the levels of heavy metals you get from vaping are low and they are not immediately toxic but over time, these metals WILL build up in the body and cause irreversible damage. this damage may or may not be life threatening, it may not even be noticeable.. then again it may cause ALS or make your kids come out with four heads, two assholes, and one toe....you just cant predict what the harmful effects for each individual person will be in the long term.

to say vaping is safe is nuts. these days the air you breathe and the water you drink isnt safe. there are chemicals in EVERYTHING. is vaping better than cigs? i agree with the OP, nobody knows for sure. we can only hope/assume....i believe they are safer than cigs myself...but then again, thats not saying much given how incredibly harmful cigs are.

we all know the formaldehyde study was BS.... but diketones are a legit concern in some e liquids as well.... probably most actually, given that e liquids dont have to be tested for these things. so again, we just dont know. diketones are linked to many illnesses of their own.

and God only knows whats in the artifical flavorings we use.....we say "e juice only has 4 ingrediants, blah, blah, blah" and count flavoring as one of those....but who really knows how many chemicals are used to make that flavoring....

vaping is uncharted territory and it is concerning to me.... i do believe it is safer than cigs... i wasnt really a smoker so much as a dipper, going through a can a day or more for 7-8 years...i feel better since vaping but that doesnt mean anything at all. my acid reflux may be healing and i feel better but in 5 years of vaping i may have some disease we never dreamed would be linked to vaping... it may not cause the same illness as cigarettes, then again it may.. it may take twice as long to cause illness as cigs. we just dont know. thats my only point. we do not know.

 

[Stinger5313]

i do think it is reasonable to believe that in time, a truly safe e liquid can be produced. we may have to scrap the vg and the pg as the base and come up with something totally different. we may have to figure out how to produce a coil that wont put metals into the vapor...we may have to figure out a lot of things...but i have no doubt if actual studies are done and not just anti-vaping studies only designed to keep people from vaping, vaping can become a very, very, very safe alternative to tobacco.....other than the nicotine of course....which is already optional.

 

[zaroba]

nicotine is a poisonous chemical it was at one point used as a insecticide

Honestly, I think this statement is on par with people being against PG because it is used as the primary ingredient in some antifreeze.

Just because an item has other uses doesn't mean it should be avoided.
Hell, you can die if you drink too much water at once, which is pretty easy to do after performing intense physical activity on a blistering hot day. You can easily consume it and absorb it into your blood stream faster then your bladder can eliminate it resulting in your electrolytes becoming too unbalanced and your nervous system (including your brain) shutting down.

By definition, anything that can be consumed enough to cause harm can be considered a poison, and that includes water.

 

[Number3124]

Honestly, I think this statement is on par with people being against PG because it is used as the primary ingredient in some antifreeze.

Just because an item has other uses doesn't mean it should be avoided.
Hell, you can die if you drink too much water at once, which is pretty easy to do after performing intense physical activity on a blistering hot day. You can easily consume it and absorb it into your blood stream faster then your bladder can eliminate it resulting in your electrolytes becoming too unbalanced and your nervous system (including your brain) shutting down.

By definition, anything that can be consumed enough to cause harm can be considered a poison, and that includes water.

TD;DR?

The difference between a medicine, a harmless compound, and a poison is the dosage.

 

[Haadkoe]

Honestly, I think this statement is on par with people being against PG because it is used as the primary ingredient in some antifreeze.

Just because an item has other uses doesn't mean it should be avoided.
Hell, you can die if you drink too much water at once, which is pretty easy to do after performing intense physical activity on a blistering hot day. You can easily consume it and absorb it into your blood stream faster then your bladder can eliminate it resulting in your electrolytes becoming too unbalanced and your nervous system (including your brain) shutting down.

By definition, anything that can be consumed enough to cause harm can be considered a poison, and that includes water.

Especially potatoes. Those things can kill the shit out of us all!

Won't someone think of the children? We must act immediately to eliminate this scourge from our lives!!!

 

[Kent B Marshall]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4110871/
This is a good read.
http://www.ecigarette-research.org/research/index.php
Great source

If I don't vape I will smoke. I enjoy my nicotine.
As long term studies are completed I believe they will continue to support vaping is safer than smoking.
Because something isn't known doesn't mean it's bad or good, just unknown.
Smoking was bad for me and I using vaping as a safer approach. Based off the information known today.

Flavoring has been a concern and will be improved.

 

[kingworm]

Honestly, I think this statement is on par with people being against PG because it is used as the primary ingredient in some antifreeze.

Just because an item has other uses doesn't mean it should be avoided.
Hell, you can die if you drink too much water at once, which is pretty easy to do after performing intense physical activity on a blistering hot day. You can easily consume it and absorb it into your blood stream faster then your bladder can eliminate it resulting in your electrolytes becoming too unbalanced and your nervous system (including your brain) shutting down.

By definition, anything that can be consumed enough to cause harm can be considered a poison, and that includes water.

nicotine is created by plants to act as a poison so calling it something else seems a bit silly.. not that i dislike nicotine but i have no doubts about what it is and because of that i limit it to below lethal doses. comparing that to water seems like you can do that with anything like saying to much can kill you but water is not a poison by design. as for pg in antifreeze, it is in antifreeze as a replacement for the poisonous type that came before it. it is not dangerous although i wouldnt drink antifreeze .

 

[kingworm]

Although growing dispute over the amount of nicotine needed to kill humans (as lethal doses cannot be tested as with other animals), the 40 to 60 mg. figure tends to suggest that drop for drop nicotine is more toxic than the lethal dose of strychnine (75 mg), diamondback rattlesnake venom (100 mg,) arsenic (200 mg) or cyanide (500 mg).


didnt write it just stole it from some random website but thats why i consider nicotine a poison

 

[AmandaD]

Although growing dispute over the amount of nicotine needed to kill humans (as lethal doses cannot be tested as with other animals), the 40 to 60 mg. figure tends to suggest that drop for drop nicotine is more toxic than the lethal dose of strychnine (75 mg), diamondback rattlesnake venom (100 mg,) arsenic (200 mg) or cyanide (500 mg).


didnt write it just stole it from some random website but thats why i consider nicotine a poison

The 60mg figure is very old and has long since been disputed.

 

[kingworm]

yes it has but not disputed that far. its likely around 4 to 500 mg which makes it kin to cyanide. there are no cyanide doubters so why is there a question of nicotine?

 

[Hermit]

Although growing dispute over the amount of nicotine needed to kill humans (as lethal doses cannot be tested as with other animals), the 40 to 60 mg. figure tends to suggest that drop for drop nicotine is more toxic than the lethal dose of strychnine (75 mg), diamondback rattlesnake venom (100 mg,) arsenic (200 mg) or cyanide (500 mg).


didnt write it just stole it from some random website but thats why i consider nicotine a poison

If we're stealing from random websites...

Cyanide:
"Food additive
Due to the high stability of their complexation with iron, ferrocyanides (Sodium ferrocyanide E535, Potassium ferrocyanide E536, and Calcium ferrocyanide E538[28]) do not decompose to lethal levels in the human body and are used in the food industry as, e.g., an anticaking agent in table salt.[29]"

Arsenic:
"Essential trace element in higher animals
There is evidence for the essentiality of arsenic as a trace mineral in birds (chickens), and in mammals (rats, hamsters, and goats). However, the biological mechanism for its essential function is not known.[74]"

Strychnine:
"The toxic and medicinal effects of Strychnos nux-vomica have been well known from the times of ancient India..."

Poison:
"a substance with an inherent property that tends to destroy life or impair health."

So is the debate over "inherent" or "tends to"? Because most people who consume nicotine (smoke, vape, NRT) don't tend to die or have any significant health impairment that's due to the nicotine

A lot of 'poisons' have beneficial use in small doses. One person's rat poison is another's anti-coagulant. Calling nicotine a poison is only beneficial to those who want to scare. It's essentially a meaningless tag.

 

[kingworm]

while i agree it is used alot by people trying to stir up fear. i do believe that referring to it as a poison is needed. vaping isnt going to kill you but some idiot decides to drink a thing of juice or god forbid a child get a hold of liquid nicotine i would rather it be labeled with poison then some fear friendly alternative. nicotine is not harmless when ingested and that needs to be well known

 

[Hermit]

while i agree it is used alot by people trying to stir up fear. i do believe that referring to it as a poison is needed. vaping isnt going to kill you but some idiot decides to drink a thing of juice or god forbid a child get a hold of liquid nicotine i would rather it be labeled with poison then some fear friendly alternative. nicotine is not harmless when ingested and that needs to be well known

Over here (UK), commercial e-liquids are labeled pretty consistently - as 'Toxic', with a tactile triangle - and have childproof caps. I don't disagree with that at all. To anyone with half a brain, the mere presence of a childproof cap should be enough of a hint to be careful with the stuff, just as with medicines, bleach, etc. While I agree there are idiots out there, I'm not sure there's much any labeling or education can do to prevent crass stupidity.

The vast majority of calls to poisoning centres concerning nicotine are precautionary. I'd say that, first, that implies that people are generally aware that's it's a potential hazard (good), and second that they are unaware of the nature (or level of severity) of it (bad). Simply stating that nicotine is a poison does nothing to improve that situation; it actually makes it worse - that's one point where I disagree with you.

The other is mixing that topic in with discussion of what might / might not be safe to vape. Of all the chemicals in my e-liquid, nicotine is probably the most studied as to its effects and dangers, and therefore the one I worry about the least!

 

[HeadInClouds]

Lots of possible ingredients and molecules are "on the radar" for different groups of vapers. You have to decide for yourself what risk level is acceptable, and how much research you want to put into your decision. This is just a list in no particular order, I'm sure not exhaustive, but all I can think of. You can do a google search for any of these plus the word "inhalation" to find ongoing discussions and research:

acetoin
butyric acid
acetyl propionyl
diacetyl
all diketones
titanium dioxide
coumarin
artificial colorings
oil-based flavorings (this is not the same thing as essential oils)


for people with sensitivities or allergies:
Sucralose
aspartame
allergens
PG or VG
nicotine (heart patients for example)


for purposes of keeping our vaping hardware actually working:
oil-based flavorings
sugar/honey/molasses/syrups - basically any sweetener with calories
gum arabic
gum acacia
carageenan
other thickeners

usually a matter of personal preference
vg, pg, alcohol, water, nicotine

 

[Haadkoe]

 

[KKen]

Lots of possible ingredients and molecules are "on the radar" for different groups of vapers. You have to decide for yourself what risk level is acceptable, and how much research you want to put into your decision. This is just a list in no particular order, I'm sure not exhaustive, but all I can think of. You can do a google search for any of these plus the word "inhalation" to find ongoing discussions and research:

acetoin
butyric acid
acetyl propionyl
diacetyl
all diketones
titanium dioxide
coumarin
artificial colorings
oil-based flavorings (this is not the same thing as essential oils)


for people with sensitivities or allergies:
Sucralose
aspartame
allergens
PG or VG
nicotine (heart patients for example)


for purposes of keeping our vaping hardware actually working:
oil-based flavorings
sugar/honey/molasses/syrups - basically any sweetener with calories
gum arabic
gum acacia
carageenan
other thickeners

usually a matter of personal preference
vg, pg, alcohol, water, nicotine

A lot of these ingredients are avoidable, but with an apathetic and/or uninformed majority of vapers not demanding higher standards from juice manufacturers, you get an industry full of shit. And when the industry is full of shit, it makes it that much easier for bureaucrats and soccer moms to persuade for more legislation or restrictions.

 

[zaroba]

liquid nicotine are not harmful for our health.there are pure liquid nicotine products are available in the market.
http://www.nicotineriver.com/

Just because it is available on the market does not mean it's not harmful. lol
I assure you that drinking bleach is certainly not safe and you can buy that easily.

That's not technically 'pure liquid nicotine'. It is diluted.
*pure* nicotine, 100% nicotine, 1000mg per ml, no dilution, is quite harmful.
Anything over 100mg per ml can cause harm when coming into contact with skin.

It all comes down to the volume your coming into contact with.
When the volume of something is enough to cause harm, it is considered a poison.

 

[DeAnna]

I wish there was a way to have blind studies done in regards to vaping, but i don't see how that is possible. Right now the research we do have has been done by researchers who are too heavily invested and influenced by one side or the other. Given that, i can't completely trust findings done from either side regardless if those findings are good or bad. If politics have taught us anything it's that whenever two opposing sides have an agenda, especially where there is money involved, there is always dirty hands and corruption involved that will twist truths in order to push one or the other's agenda. One industry has something to gain by promoting the safety of ecigs, while the other has something to gain by promoting that they are not safe...which leaves the rest of us with research results that feels more like a game of smoke and mirrors.

 

[DeAnna]

A lot of these ingredients are avoidable, but with an apathetic and/or uninformed majority of vapers not demanding higher standards from juice manufacturers, you get an industry full of shit. And when the industry is full of shit, it makes it that much easier for bureaucrats and soccer moms to persuade for more legislation or restrictions.

OMG, you so nailed exactly the way i am feeling. Vapers and the vaping industry really needs to speak up and speak out to those who are truly doing a disservice to everyone in the vaping community . When we have known problems that can easily be avoided, yet manufactures are not taking action and vaping fanboys/girls are all over forums ignorantly dismissing and down playing the facts all in the name of supporting vaping, they are hurting everyone and it only serves to raise red flags that maybe oversight is needed. It's pretty sad that sometimes when i read post or look at different vaping venders i am left feeling at times that maybe regulations and restrictions are needed.

It's sad because soo many vapers and venders are working very hard to keep vaping safe and showing that it can be done without intrusive regulations and restrictions. Right now we know there are things in e liquids that can be avoided and prevented and there is no excuse for any vender, big or small, to not ensure it's not present in their liquids now that we know about it. There is absolutely no excuse for any individual vaper to not hold vaping venders to a higher standard, unless they enjoy lining the pockets of those who penny pinch and profit at the expense of others health. Seriously, it reflects badly on us all as a vaping community and will not only cost us health wise, but our vaping freedoms as well.

 

[KKen]

When we have known problems that can easily be avoided, yet manufactures are not taking action and vaping fanboys/girls are all over forums ignorantly dismissing and down playing the facts all in the name of supporting vaping, they are hurting everyone and it only serves to raise red flags that maybe oversight is needed. It's pretty sad that sometimes when i read post or look at different vaping venders i am left feeling at times that maybe regulations and restrictions are needed.

This industry is full of shills, but unfortunately, this is a perfect industry to be one because the consumer standards have dropped so far over the years. New juices are released every day with ZERO mention if they have been tested for Diacetyl, Diketones, AP, etc... because the consumers simply do not demand it or want to know for that matter.

"Vaping is a safer alternative to smoking" holds true if you are vaping how vaping was a few years ago, but I think this has been lost with the growing popularity of high volume vaping and making this too accessible to any imbecile who craves attention.

 

[Hermit]

"Then let them vape cake"

Haha.

Seriously, I can't put all the blame onto vendors who use diacetyl et al, when there's a consistently large demand for rich-tasting cake/pastry/custard flavoured liquid - a good amount of it from customers who know there's concern about the ingredients required for those. And pressure/regulation just leads to diacetyl being replaced with butyric acid or whatever... my point-of-view is that anything producing that rich-tasting effect is likely to be suspect, and my personal choice is to avoid them. I am, I think, 'for' some sort of regulation where dangers can be shown to be significant, but on the other hand, I'm very much 'for' personal choice too. Hmm.

edit: to be clear, I don't think any current regulation proposals fit with what I'd support, at all, beyond age restriction.

 

[KKen]

Yes, definitely let them vape cake, tons of it, at least 30-40mls a day and at high of a wattage setting as possible. It will shorten the time needed for those of us who are curious to know what the long term effects of vaping can cause without having to be the lab rats.


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