Goodbye VU

[Roger Schaeffer]

Leaving forum due to BS VJ inspired article http://www.v4p3r.com/guilty-by-association/ by Anthony Hereld mouthpiece and opportunist extraordinaire

 

[Whiskey]

Moving to "U mad Bro"

 

[Celtic Fog]

I believe it was well written, he brings up very valid issues and concerns. We all have our own opinions, even you Roger, its a shame that instead of choosing to safely and openly debate or discuss your opinions and differences (that's what forum means by the way), you choose to leave the Forum , because he chooses to think differently than you do, this after you blast him for it...like a mouthpiece and opportunist.....

 

[freemind]

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Like CF, I think it was a good article.

 

[Browncoat]

I've taken a lot of crap from that article. That's fine, it's to be expected. Any time you take a hard stance on an issue, it's going to piss some people off, and I was prepared for it. But don't accuse me of being a mouthpiece or an opportunist. If you want to go on with your head in the sand, so be it. Don't attempt to discredit those who have the testicular fortitude to peel back the curtain and ask questions.

The simple truth is, some people don't want to know the simple truth. If one of the biggest names in vaping makes a statement about associations, I'm going to look into it with due diligence. Had @VaporJoes been full of hot air, I would've called him out on it in my article. Here's the thing, and there's really no way of getting around it: he was right. Vapers should be concerned. Just as with the We Are Vapers documentary, there's a story there, and most seem to have forgotten about it.

Fare thee well, @Roger Schaeffer.

 

[BigNasty]

So instead of clearing the air you are doing exactly what was predictable.. when questions arise you scurry off like a thief..
Got it.

 

[MD_Boater]

I read it. Where is the controversial part?

 

[VapedCrusader]

I don't get this thread.. Are we supposed to beg you to stay? The fact that you are quitting a forum because an article was written that doesn't 100% support you is a tad childish dontcha think?

If @VaporJoes had the same mind set, VU wouldn't even be here right now.. People don't always agree with you - it's called life.. (I seriously can't believe I'm wasting this much of my finger strength to type this)

 

[BigNasty]

Self edited.
Turd doing turd things in a turd bowl is still turds no matter how you flush it.

 

[UncleRJ]

Leaving forum due to BS VJ inspired article http://www.v4p3r.com/guilty-by-association/ by Anthony Hereld mouthpiece and opportunist extraordinaire

I do wish you would reconsider your decision to just quit the forum.

If you did not like the article in question, just blow it off and forget about it, which is what I do when reading all of the BS reports on the dangers of vaping based on ancient FDA studies.

This does wonders to help keep my blood pressure down.

That being said, the door is always open

 

[Mike H.]

KANGER EVOD TANKS AND THE MVP 20W MOD RULES....disagree and ill quit.

 

[5150sick]

The only thing I see is he seriously fucked up by sticking Greg Conley (American Vaping Association) in "the ugly"

If you Google "Greg Conley Vaping" actually here i'll do it for you:
https://www.google.com/#q=greg+conley+vaping

You will see that he has single handedly done more for vaping than 99% of other people in this country have done,

Just because Greg was on CASAA's board and then is now a research fellow at the heartland institute and has started the AVA less than a year ago he can not produce tax info because he doesn't have it yet!

Then the part where the previous two posts were like
"what's going on in China? look at Phil & Dimitri rubbing on those Chinese dudes dicks!"

Then all of a sudden a single post later it seems as if Dimitri has achieved God like status.

Other than that it's about right.

 

[Garemlin]

I never got the point of exit posts on forums. Seen it since way back to the early days. If you are not happy just leave. Trust me no one is going to beg you to change your mind. And I am not saying that to be mean or even directly towards you. It is what it is. The forum will roll on. I had an issue a few months ago and I voiced my opinion. If in the end I had decided to leave I would have just snuck out quietly in the dark unseen. No need to advertise it.

 

[5150sick]

But that guys shoddy reporting (what OP considered as shoddy) has 0, nada, nothing, to do with the Vaping Underground. - at all!
So I just think your (Roger) anger may be misplaced here.

 

[InMyImage]

I just finished reading the article and I am surprised that this one piece would compell @Roger Schaeffer to leave. There is more to his departure than this, and I suspect that he simply has overtime determined that his views don't reflect @VaporJoes which is his right, and that because of his convictions to his views, he chooses not to associate himself with something owned by VJ.

As for the piece itself, it is fairly clear, but overly concise. Anyone supporting a cause needs to understand what they are supporting, and yes financials are one aspect of that. Simply looking at the salaries earned by employees of those organizations is a very narrow view of the organization as a whole until you get to a point where the individual income overshadows the goals of the organization itself. Quite frankly it is to early to determine the relative good or bad of any of these organizations simply because they have not had time to organize themselve. To expect all advocacy organizations to be entirely composed of volunteers is simply unrealistic, but to expect them to keep those salaries to reasonable levels as compared to incomes they could earn elsewhere doing similar jobs is entirerly reasonable.

One piece that I do question is the fact that there is a banner on the bottom of the page promoting the Vaping Militia which is an organization that @V4P3R eMAG seems to to be pushing as an example of a bad organization, in which case I'd expect his site to not accept their money as a contributor supporting his work.

 

[Browncoat]

One piece that I do question is the fact that there is a banner on the bottom of the page promoting the Vaping Militia which is an organization that @V4P3R eMAG seems to to be pushing as an example of a bad organization, in which case I'd expect his site to not accept their money as a contributor supporting his work.

Those are links to organizations that I support, not the other way around. And to thwart any more tinfoil hattery, by support, I mean endorse/enjoy, and not financially.

 

[Zamazam]

Leaving forum due to BS VJ inspired article http://www.v4p3r.com/guilty-by-association/ by Anthony Hereld mouthpiece and opportunist extraordinaire

Leaving the forum due to one article? Really? This begs the question, why are you leaving? Because you are pissed off at what someone wrote? That seems a bit thin skinned Roger. We all get pissed off at articles and posts sometimes.

Adios.

 

[vaperature]

Am I missing something. Why are you taking out your frustration on Vaping Underground over an article published on someone else's blog?. Vaping Underground didn't even publish that article. So you're basically saying just because the author of the article is a member here and posted about it here that the ENTIRE forum is to blame? Well if that's the way you think you don't deserve to be part of this forum.

 

[MKPM]

I have this sophisticated filter in my brain. It retains useful things...and allows the others to pass through and out of my right ear. And for the record, I left the forum months ago.....you lot hurt my feelings. This is my cat Leo typing this.

 

[Bobx]

Nope I rethought this..
You running off is showing how much of a fucking bitch ass pussy and yellow coward you are. And you want us to support you being a mother fucking chicken shit coward to fight for our rights..

Fuck me dude if you cannot stand up to scrutiny without bitching the fuck out like coward then you are not fighting for my rights for shit, you are just being a spineless fuck,.

Can I get your true feelings LOL

 

[Jah]

I have this sophisticated filter in my brain. It retains useful things...and allows the others to pass through and out of my right ear. And for the record, I left the forum months ago.....you lot hurt my feelings. This is my cat Leo typing this.

Hi Leo!

 

[kelli]

i am leaving VU because @Jah said hi to @franciscan 's cat and not to me. good
bye

 

[Whiskey]

LOL.............

 

[InMyImage]

Those are links to organizations that I support, not the other way around. And to thwart any more tinfoil hattery, by support, I mean endorse/enjoy, and not financially.

Yep, that's what I said. It seems strange that you would have a banner at the bottom of your page support TVM yet list them in the "Bad" portion of your article.

Are they bad or good to support? Make up your mind, because what you say and are doing are in contradiction to each other.

Direct quote from your article:

"The Vaping Militia. Committed to protecting the rights and health of vapors by advocating for safe public use of personal vaporizers. General membership is $30. Vendor membership levels are $100, $500, and $1,200 (annual fee or $100/month renewal).

For-profit private company
The downside to The Vaping Militia is that it is privately owned, and therefore unaccountable to the public. There is no way to know how much actual advocacy your dollars are buying.

They sell t-shirts and wristbands, and your membership dues includes some nifty dog tags. Aside from riding on the coattails of CASAA, what are they really doing?

You would be better off donating your time and money to CASAA directly."

 

[vaperature]

I am leaving this forum because of this thread http://vapingunderground.com/threads/rules-of-the-forum.255/

I refuse to be an adult.

Ta ta!!!

 

[VapedCrusader]

I have this sophisticated filter in my brain. It retains useful things...and allows the others to pass through and out of my right ear. And for the record, I left the forum months ago.....you lot hurt my feelings. This is my cat Leo typing this.

You just made my day with this comment. Well done sir, well done.

 

[Mike H.]

Ive noticed no one has disagreed with the kanger evod and mvp 20w as rulers..for this, i shall stay longer and soak up my flawless victory....Next challenger will be an EMOW clone tank (in black to match my state of the art MVP 20W) from fasttech..Prepare for battle, EVOD.

 

[Jah]

i am leaving VU because @Jah said hi to @franciscan 's cat and not to me. good
bye

/flail
8)

Hiya Whiskey, Oh Noes, Im too late, @kelli already deleted account and threw pc in the dishwasher 8/

me and my damned cat-first ideas

 

[kelli]

ok i came back.

 

[Browncoat]

Yep, that's what I said. It seems strange that you would have a banner at the bottom of your page support TVM yet list them in the "Bad" portion of your article.

I'll snip the direct quote from my article, since my memory of what I wrote is fairly clear.

This is probably going to blow your mind, but there is a difference between activism and advocacy. I totally support anyone's right to stand out on a street corner with a picket sign and bullhorn. I support people's rights to chain themselves to a tree and chant 'we shall overcome', Down with The Man, and all that other raised-fist stuff. This is activism, and I support what TVM does in this regard. TVM itself has made this differentiation themselves in another thread here on VU. They are activists, not an advocacy group.

I do not support TVM with my donation dollars, and am not a member. This is because I believe that activism, while important, has limited effect (if any) on legislation. Bills being introduced, laws being passed, FDA regulations on the horizon...those are things I am most concerned with. I cannot be on Capitol Hill or in the ears of lawmakers myself, so I need an advocate in my stead. Advocacy groups represent the interests of the community in a more meaningful way. In ways that a group with nifty t-shirts and dog tags cannot.

The article in question lists The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly with a financial transparency to results achieved ratio in mind. TVM is a for-profit company, so their financial information is not public. Some have made the incorrect assumption that I think these organizations as a whole are bad, and that is not the case.

 

[Wabah58]

The only thing I see is he seriously fucked up by sticking Greg Conley (American Vaping Association) in "the ugly"

If you Google "Greg Conley Vaping" actually here i'll do it for you:
https://www.google.com/#q=greg conley vaping

You will see that he has single handedly done more for vaping than 99% of other people in this country have done,

Just because Greg was on CASAA's board and then is now a research fellow at the heartland institute and has started the AVA less than a year ago he can not produce tax info because he doesn't have it yet!

Then the part where the previous two posts were like
"what's going on in China? look at Phil & Dimitri rubbing on those Chinese dudes dicks!"

Then all of a sudden a single post later it seems as if Dimitri has achieved God like status.

Other than that it's about right.

FACT! Greg Conley GETS THE FUCKIN JOB DONE. Doesn't let political correctness stop him from doing what needs to be done!

 

[vaperature]

I'll snip the direct quote from my article, since my memory of what I wrote is fairly clear.

This is probably going to blow your mind, but there is a difference between activism and advocacy. I totally support anyone's right to stand out on a street corner with a picket sign and bullhorn. I support people's rights to chain themselves to a tree and chant 'we shall overcome', Down with The Man, and all that other raised-fist stuff. This is activism, and I support what TVM does in this regard. TVM itself has made this differentiation themselves in another thread here on VU. They are activists, not an advocacy group.

I do not support TVM with my donation dollars, and am not a member. This is because I believe that activism, while important, has limited effect (if any) on legislation. Bills being introduced, laws being passed, FDA regulations on the horizon...those are things I am most concerned with. I cannot be on Capitol Hill or in the ears of lawmakers myself, so I need an advocate in my stead. Advocacy groups represent the interests of the community in a more meaningful way. In ways that a group with nifty t-shirts and dog tags cannot.

The article in question lists The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly with a financial transparency to results achieved ratio in mind. TVM is a for-profit company, so their financial information is not public. Some have made the incorrect assumption that I think these organizations as a whole are bad, and that is not the case.

I've been following what you're doing and support your right to do it and although I don't agree with everything you're doing I believe there's a need for open discussion and you tend to bring up valid points for debate. But sometimes you mix facts with opinion and this does bother me a bit. For example, when you say of Vaping Militia

You would be better off donating your time and money to CASAA directly.

That is completely your own opinion and the way it is worded, it makes it sound like TVM is nothing but a subcontractor for CASAA (otherwise why use the word "directly" in that sentence?) You may be making a valid point that "There is no way to know how much actual advocacy your dollars are buying." but you also haven't proven that your dollars AREN'T "buying" advocacy, and quite frankly, for all the advocacy people have bought from CASAA, we are still being bombarded with regulations and bans left and right, so what proof is there that CASAA has actually done anything for the vaping community either, other than that you can look at their books?

Just my two cents.

 

[BigNasty]

But you dare question the owner of the TVM and he skins out like a scared child.
Seriously you want the money but lack the skin or the backbone and be forth right about the accounting of it...then you do not have the guts or spine to advocate for me.
For profit or non profit you tout your group as a bunch of advocates the money and expenditures are under the microscope.

So instead of being honest, stand up and forthright about cost vs. expenditures and profit for board members you want us to blindly pump more money out for more smoke and mirror shell game bullshit.
So instead of taking your lumps and being a smart business owner (yes business since this is for profit) you threw a fucking snivel tantrum and stormed off like a sulking child with your favorite toy..

In my years I have noticed this about liars, thieves, con artists, and lazy dirt bags... is this.
If confronted or questioned they get angry, they bitch up a storm to distract you from what they were being asked, blame you and others for the short fall.. and then skin out like the lowly pieces of mobile shit that they are hoping you forget they are pieces of lying shit.

Stand up people correct the issue, take the lumps and move on improving or correcting the issue.


Guess the TVM owner showed us all he is a fucking cowardly piece of lying shit without a spine or backbone to run his business, have our trust and be an advocate, or to be a stand up person in general.

 

[Browncoat]

...I believe there's a need for open discussion and you tend to bring up valid points for debate. But sometimes you mix facts with opinion and this does bother me a bit...

There is a need, you're absolutely right. That need for open discussion is why I started the blog in the first place. There are several vaping blogs out there, and when it comes to matters of advocacy, most simply re-tweet, re-blog, and otherwise regurgitate what everyone else is saying. Having a feed to CASAA Calls to Action on your site doesn't mean you're making a difference. It certainly doesn't mean you're taking a stand and voicing an opinion.

My site attempts to walk a fine line between journalism and opinion. I'm not content to simply blow someone else's horn and with a straight face claim that I'm standing behind a cause. Any time you express an opinion, your ass is exposed to the wind and there is going to be some fallout because not everyone agrees. That's fine. I'd rather stir up some controversy and get people talking as opposed to being just another Yes Man. My angle is to provide enough fact for people to make up their own minds, while at the same time injecting enough opinion to encourage debate. Comments or points raised are not invalidated simply because someone doesn't agree with them.

 

[vaperature]

There is a need, you're absolutely right. That need for open discussion is why I started the blog in the first place. There are several vaping blogs out there, and when it comes to matters of advocacy, most simply re-tweet, re-blog, and otherwise regurgitate what everyone else is saying. Having a feed to CASAA Calls to Action on your site doesn't mean you're making a difference. It certainly doesn't mean you're taking a stand and voicing an opinion.

My site attempts to walk a fine line between journalism and opinion. I'm not content to simply blow someone else's horn and with a straight face claim that I'm standing behind a cause. Any time you express an opinion, your ass is exposed to the wind and there is going to be some fallout because not everyone agrees. That's fine. I'd rather stir up some controversy and get people talking as opposed to being just another Yes Man. My angle is to provide enough fact for people to make up their own minds, while at the same time injecting enough opinion to encourage debate. Comments or points raised are not invalidated simply because someone doesn't agree with them.

All I'm saying is that there is no evidence whatsoever to back up your statement that "You would be better off donating your time and money to CASAA directly." If this statement was made within the context of showing actual evidence that TVM is squandering money and hasn't done anything for the community, contrasted with a list of actual, concrete achievements that CASAA prides itself with, it would be a valid point backed up by facts. But as it stands it's nothing but an opinion planted in the middle of some facts, and presenting it that way serves no purpose other than to create the illusion that there's more validity to it than there is. It's sloppy journalism.

 

[UncleRJ]

ok i came back.

And here is your..............

Wait for it............

BOOGER

 

[InMyImage]

I'll snip the direct quote from my article, since my memory of what I wrote is fairly clear.

This is probably going to blow your mind, but there is a difference between activism and advocacy. I totally support anyone's right to stand out on a street corner with a picket sign and bullhorn. I support people's rights to chain themselves to a tree and chant 'we shall overcome', Down with The Man, and all that other raised-fist stuff. This is activism, and I support what TVM does in this regard. TVM itself has made this differentiation themselves in another thread here on VU. They are activists, not an advocacy group.

I do not support TVM with my donation dollars, and am not a member. This is because I believe that activism, while important, has limited effect (if any) on legislation. Bills being introduced, laws being passed, FDA regulations on the horizon...those are things I am most concerned with. I cannot be on Capitol Hill or in the ears of lawmakers myself, so I need an advocate in my stead. Advocacy groups represent the interests of the community in a more meaningful way. In ways that a group with nifty t-shirts and dog tags cannot.

The article in question lists The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly with a financial transparency to results achieved ratio in mind. TVM is a for-profit company, so their financial information is not public. Some have made the incorrect assumption that I think these organizations as a whole are bad, and that is not the case.

You might want to rethink your presentation then... "The good, bad, and ugly" has always been associatied with the quality or morals of a thing, not they way they respond to a response... especially when you tell people they are better off supporting one of your "good" organizations.

 

[Whiskey]

Still sitting here wondering who is the master.....d'....bater

 

[moecat]

I have this sophisticated filter in my brain. It retains useful things...and allows the others to pass through and out of my right ear. And for the record, I left the forum months ago.....you lot hurt my feelings. This is my cat Leo typing this.

I have proof

 

[Browncoat]

But as it stands it's nothing but an opinion planted in the middle of some facts, and presenting it that way serves no purpose other than to create the illusion that there's more validity to it than there is. It's sloppy journalism.

Yet, here we are talking about it. It has served its purpose.

You might want to rethink your presentation then...

I've thought about my presentation quite thoroughly, and I'm not the least bit concerned about the vocal minority.

 

[vaperature]

Yet, here we are talking about it. It has served its purpose.


I've thought about my presentation quite thoroughly, and I'm not the least bit concerned about the vocal minority.

Once again, I support your right to do what you're doing, but if your purpose is not to educate and make valid points that are based upon fact, but instead is merely to get people talking about what you wrote, then that's no better than muckraking.

On the other hand, the fact that this guy (I'm assuming he has something to do with TVM, right?) is running away with his tail between his legs so easily, doesn't give me much confidence in him to be MY advocate for anything. Shit, if he can't take this imagine how he would whimp out standing before congress.

 

[Browncoat]

On the other hand, the fact that this guy (I'm assuming he has something to do with TVM, right?) is running away with his tail between his legs so easily, doesn't give me much confidence in him to be MY advocate for anything. Shit, if he can't take this imagine how he would whimp out standing before congress.

Congratulations. Welcome to the Eyes Wide Open Club.

 

[UncleRJ]

Once again, I support your right to do what you're doing, but if your purpose is not to educate and make valid points that are based upon fact, but instead is merely to get people talking about what you wrote, then that's no better than muckraking.

On the other hand, the fact that this guy (I'm assuming he has something to do with TVM, right?) is running away with his tail between his legs so easily, doesn't give me much confidence in him to be MY advocate for anything. Shit, if he can't take this imagine how he would whimp out standing before congress.

I would welcome the chance to stand in front of Congress and present my point of view to them..............

 

[BigNasty]

I would welcome the chance to stand in front of Congress and present my point of view to them..............

View attachment 13050

I do not they would take kindly of me telling them exactly what I thought of every one of them. The real frowny would be getting on the desk and dropping a log to show them the upper limit of my contempt for them.

 

[InMyImage]

Congratulations. Welcome to the Eyes Wide Open Club.

How is Roger associated with TVM? I've never seen him mention it. He does have advocacy blog, but it shares info from a variety of sources.

 

[Browncoat]

How is Roger associated with TVM? I've never seen him mention it. He does have advocacy blog, but it shares info from a variety of sources.

Are you asking me a question? Because I feel that I've already answered it. It's okay, take your time. Feel free to read through the last few replies. It will come to you.

 

[InMyImage]

Are you asking me a question? Because I feel that I've already answered it. It's okay, take your time. Feel free to read through the last few replies. It will come to you.

Actually yes, I saw you insinuate that Roger owns TVM by simply validating vaperatures comment but not saying it yourself.

What information do you have to connect Roger directly with TVM.

 

[vaperature]

Congratulations. Welcome to the Eyes Wide Open Club.

I

Actually yes, I saw you insinuate that Roger owns TVM by simply validating vaperatures comment but not saying it yourself.

What information do you have to connect Roger directly with TVM.

So what's the deal? Does the OP represent TVM or not?

 

[Midniteoyl]

I do not they would take kindly of me telling them exactly what I thought of every one of them. The real frowny would be getting on the desk and dropping a log to show them the upper limit of my contempt for them.

 

[BigNasty]

Pretty much.