Smoky... whats the AP they speak of ? I think they are calling it Pentanedione
Acetyl Propiony = AP
or is it the "AP" that we use as a flavor??
hmm.. can you show me were it is used??
Smoky... whats the AP they speak of ? I think they are calling it Pentanedione
LOOL we keep posting at the same time\
\\\\\\\ got the AP meaning now
Thats funny.JinX!!!!
Thats funny.
I am seeing a reral problem in the future for the sellers. What I asked in the other thread is going to sooner or later be asked about at the retail level and they are going to have to pay for testing or fasll by the wayside I would think.
As much as I despise the FDA for their lying treacherous ways, they will catch up and start to address this.
Im wondering about a possible test kit. If available now or the cost and resale of such a kit for each concern.
like i said.. wack a mole..
find an issue and fix it..
i also said.. if you use flavors free of those 2 chemicals, your juices will reflect and pass.
Tball.. you might want to read this bit..
http://www.stinkycanuck.com/shop/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=14
hmm.. ??
lol belong in that fb group i just linked to... Diacetyl and Acetyl Propiony FREE!!
When a company claims "diacetyl free!" we know it can mean they're using substitutes like acetyl propionyl and acetoin. I can name 3 off the top of my head.
So when the claim is "diacetyl and acetyl propionyl free" I can't help but think "acetoin."
Research and biochemistry indicate that the 3 biggies (acetoin, diacetyl, acetyl propionyl) are molecularly so similar that they likely have similar effect on human cells. If you find one of them unacceptable, you should reject them all. If one is acceptable to you, then they should all be acceptable. Which choice any one of us makes is irrelevant. Vape-related businesses that hype none of 1-2 of these are making MISLEADING claims, either intentionally to gain business, or through ignorance.
agreed with thisWhen a company claims "diacetyl free!" we know it can mean they're using substitutes like acetyl propionyl and acetoin. I can name 3 off the top of my head.
So when the claim is "diacetyl and acetyl propionyl free" I can't help but think "acetoin."
Research and biochemistry indicate that the 3 biggies (acetoin, diacetyl, acetyl propionyl) are molecularly so similar that they likely have similar effect on human cells. If you find one of them unacceptable, you should reject them all. If one is acceptable to you, then they should all be acceptable. Which choice any one of us makes is irrelevant. Vape-related businesses that hype none of 1-2 of these are making MISLEADING claims, either intentionally to gain business, or through ignorance.
So you are saying that they (juice makers>Baker's White, thevapebarstore.com, NicVape) did it for more business or they are stupid?
Basic easy chemistry: acetoin, acetyl propionyl, and diacetyl have similar chemical structure
Biochemistry: the three are predicted to have similar effect on human tissue due to the ketone groups in the compounds
Existing research to date: supports the above statement; no contradictory findings; no contradictory findings are expected
Common sense: All should be viewed as equivalent substances for vaping. If any one of them is unsafe, all are. If one is safe, all are. Test for all, or don't bother testing.
Notice I don't mention my opinion (or any opinion) there at all.
I am not "saying" anything about any company.
I am stating basic facts.
Now.... here is my opinion.
Any company that does NOT understand the above may truly believe it's great to be "free" of one or two of the substances, ignoring the other(s).
Any company that DOES understand the above and advertises they're free of 1 or 2, while ignoring the rest -- believes WE are too stupid to understand.
OEL = Occupational Exposure Limit HERE (PDF Download Scientific Committee on Occupational Exposure Limits EU).So far, sensory irritation and slightly impaired lung function in humans and histopathological signs of irritation in animals have been observed at concentrations as low as 2 ppm so that an OEL is expected to be well below this exposure concentration.
I would be more than happy to volunteer, I'm not the best googler on the planet but this is basically what I'm doing on my own as I come across things anyways. At the very least, we'll have a comprehensive list of components and greater knowledge of them. I'm also no scientist so a lot of these more comprehensive studies I don't really understand much of what I read, but I know how to read 'cancer' and 'inhalation danger'.Yeah I think we can and should make a list of ingredients that likely should be avoided. I can upload all ingredients from TFA (thank you TFA) and a searchable site that collates safety info from a wide range of sources. If we can get volunteers to split the work...
Oh crap, wait... Sorry, my db server just fried its motherboard... I'm rebuilding tomorrow; worst case should finish NLT than Wednesday.
The list is not huge, so if we split the work seems we could easily accomplish within a week or two. Might be a list that forever changes vaping for the better!
Thing is, i did not start this thread to make others ticked or mad at me..
i hope every one realizes this.. it'd hurt me to think that anyone got mad... have been thinking on this all night..
If the money, time, and motivation existed, the list of flavoring ingredients to investigate would begin at Table 2, about 2/3 through this document:
https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html
FlavorWest not terrible either I guess.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dgcbcda45ghrkad/AABeJwTvDybKSZqem8Gvj1f_a?dl=0
I use like none of their flavors though. I find it really hard to believe that FW Yellow Cake doesn't contain any of the 'Big 3'
Yeah, I was messing around with some Capella V2s and to me, it still has some diketone notes, but maybe it's really acetoin? Of course that's probably splitting hairs. My point is just that even some of the V2s or reformulated concentrates may be smoke and mirrors, so I would just as soon use the originals but at a very low percentage. As of now I find that I can get really great flavor-shaping quality, and taste, by just using .1-.25% flavoring from some of the stronger diketone laden flavors like Capella French Vanilla. Their Simply Vanilla is pretty light on the diketones from what I can tell, so that one can't stand up to heavy dilution (I use that one at around 3-5% when I do use it -- and that's high for me). But, the ones that can be heavily diluted (the ones that smell like sweet butter) I will likely just use sparingly, if and when I feel like I have to just to get a flavor right.
As far as I can see it, the big problem with these notes is that some vapers continue to want the notes, but are also battling with finding an alternative becasue they don't want to vape diketones. I am not so certain the alternative to it exists without being a member of that family, which would kinda defeat the purpose. So for those of us that want to be completely clear of those chemicals, it *may* mean re-configuring what (y)our desired vape will taste like. I am not in the zero-tolerance camp, but I am definitely formulating new ideas for DIY liquids so I don't feel like those elements are even needed. It's not all that easy as of now though -- it's *almost* like being a sugar-free pastry chef, or better yet, a chef in general that avoids using fats.
At the end of the night/the beginning of the day, we do have Flavourart!
i don't know.. i simply went by the testing and flat out removed all of mine..
i am such a goof when i mix, if i don't then chances of them getting back into my juice i am making..
and i am noticing i am not coughing as much..
i want to try and see if me vaping the good stuff for a few weeks will really work..
i know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am allergic to pg.. but this has me wondering too..
For me, I have a noticeable not-so-good feeling in my chest when I vape the extra-heavy diketone liquids at higher than 3% (but only if I vape them out of an RDA), so I wouldn't doubt that it could be the case for you.
I'm one of the few who does not use fb, so I can't see your link. The nicvape flavorings are free of diacetyl and ap? Do they report butyric acid? This seems to be the substitute aka vomit flavoring, lol! Have you tried Nude Nicotine? They publish their reports, I haven't dug through them, yet. I want to vape as safely as possible. I also mix for a few people and that bothers me more than what I vape myself. I dont mind sacricing flavor. I just want testing and honesty. The bottom line though is that even the bad stuff is better than smoking!if you follow the link, it will lead you to the fb group I keep talking about..
this one:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/314609708719483/
that is even cooler, to see companies willing to go thru with this..
but like GG and I talked today..
Nicvape.. excellent example.. really..
the flavors are more than decent, no aftertaste and guess what??
lol belong in that fb group i just linked to... Diacetyl and Acetyl Propiony FREE!!
but there is a cost to all of this testing.. higher flavor cost.. higher cost tacked on in "handling"..
is it worth it? could be.. until they find yet another chemical that hey.. we the mixers need to be worried about..
I'm one of the few who does not use fb, so I can't see your link. The nicvape flavorings are free of diacetyl and ap? Do they report butyric acid? This seems to be the substitute aka vomit flavoring, lol! Have you tried Nude Nicotine? They publish their reports, I haven't dug through them, yet. I want to vape as safely as possible. I also mix for a few people and that bothers me more than what I vape myself. I dont mind sacricing flavor. I just want testing and honesty. The bottom line though is that even the bad stuff is better than smoking!
I'm one of the few who does not use fb, so I can't see your link. The nicvape flavorings are free of diacetyl and ap? Do they report butyric acid? This seems to be the substitute aka vomit flavoring, lol! Have you tried Nude Nicotine? They publish their reports, I haven't dug through them, yet. I want to vape as safely as possible. I also mix for a few people and that bothers me more than what I vape myself. I dont mind sacricing flavor. I just want testing and honesty. The bottom line though is that even the bad stuff is better than smoking!
You only have juice? Or do you sell flavors as well?I agree man, the constant assertions without evidence, both from flavoring manufacturers, and from vendors themselves drove me up a wall. If you want to advertise this as such, then get it tested and prove it. So, that's what I did with my juice, you can find the PDFs on the product page, and know what you're getting is safe. www.thevapespace.com
The butyric acid is a hit or miss replacement, it does give off a slight funk that needs to be complimented by something to thicken/heat it up. I think we may have done this spot on with Jesus Juice, but need some more market feedback on it.
The butyric acid is a hit or miss replacement, it does give off a slight funk that needs to be complimented by something to thicken/heat it up. I think we may have done this spot on with Jesus Juice, but need some more market feedback on it.
You only have juice? Or do you sell flavors as well?
Since this is the DIY section, I don't think many buy juice.
So you're using butyric acid in your products? Do you esterify or just dilute?
Why do you consider dilute butyric acid a superior (safer?) alternative to better-known ketones and diketones, like acetoin, diacetyl, etc.?
We just dilute it! It does seem to be a much better alternative than diketones, there isn't a documented danger, and it has been used (in other markets) for a while.
Just a little edit: the documented danger of brochiolitis obliterans is far greater than any of the large dose contact symptoms regarding butryic acid (sore throat, gastrointestinal discomfort, etc).