Just curious about "bad" flavors..

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid - General Discussion' started by Smoky Blue, Nov 20, 2014.

  1. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    Acetyl Propiony = AP

    or is it the "AP" that we use as a flavor??

    hmm.. can you show me were it is used??
     
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  2. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    JinX!!!! :D
     
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  3. Thunderball

    Thunderball Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Thats funny.

    I am seeing a reral problem in the future for the sellers. What I asked in the other thread is going to sooner or later be asked about at the retail level and they are going to have to pay for testing or fall by the wayside I would think.
    As much as I despise the FDA for their lying treacherous ways, they will catch up and start to address this.

    Im wondering about a possible test kit. If available now or the cost and resale of such a kit for each concern.
     
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  4. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    i know.. and not only will costs sky rocket.. but the red tape to cut thru for most mom and pops..
    never mind little me mixing for cost, so i can anti up my flavors..

    then the testing.. well they have the nic test kits, available thru wizardslab.. they might end up having to do something like that..
    but who will certify it? hmm..
     
  5. Thunderball

    Thunderball Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I forsaw the glut of juicemakers and vape shops a year ago and decided not to jump in ( for the long term for me) ...and the Nic thing with the FDA, but I never thought the flavors themselves would be a problem.....but have been learning they can be the past few months.

    Maybe if it became manditory, juice makers would get together and find one person or buisness that would do everyones testing and the cost would be much lower. For that matter, some far thinking person will start their own testing company ;) and promote themselves to juice makers and vape shops exclusivley lowering the price of testing these juices. The testing cant be hard. I see alot of clerical more than anything receiving, testing, writing an in invoice/test sheet and returning it.

    Hmmmm. :)

    This of course would be a money maker until the FDA get a-hold of that as well..... then that could change.

    Fast paced hobby we have here. A future problem for resellers.

    Glad I DIY.
     
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  6. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    you and me both..
    good thing i am stocked up for a very very long time.. :(

    i do not know what the solution is..
    more testing, more openness.. more support..

    but look how far we have come.. there might be hope, one day.
     
  7. Thunderball

    Thunderball Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Well that testing sheet is very simple. Apparantly they tested for only one thing. It would be nice to see a battery of tests run on one flavor. Have you seen anything like that in your travels ?
     
  8. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    if you dig in that group, they test for 2 things.. the big D and the AP (not flavoring)
    other than those 2, atm there is nothing else.. unless they were to find other components..

    they all look like that one sheet I posted.
     
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  9. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    like i said.. wack a mole..
    find an issue and fix it..

    i also said.. if you use flavors free of those 2 chemicals, your juices will reflect and pass.
     
  10. Thunderball

    Thunderball Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Which brings up something else in the back of my mind. Small FDA story here...

    Without going into great detail, at one time in my life I was reading all I could about health and vitamins ( before it came into style ) and learned alot. One thing thats always bugged me was "Fat Free" and the labeling of such. Back when the "fat Free" labeling of foods was so trendy, I learned that ( Per the FDA rules) any serving size or any food could be labeled fat free as long as it has LESS THAN 5% fat per serving.

    The masses didnt know this so they ate and ate and ate and got fatter, because even though it was labeled fat free, a bag of "something" may have 10 servings, therefore it probably had 50% Fat if you ate the whole bag ( or carton of Ice cream ) ( of course carbs will turn into fat as well but we wont get into this)

    You already know what Im going to say here..... When TFA or some flavoring company says it has no Dikatones in a certain flavor, would it be safe to say that there might still be dikatones in it ? ........... Do most testing companies say it has no Diketones if the % the FDA states is at what they say is a safe level ?

    I have too many questions now........ although Im not too terribly concerned enough about it at this point in time to stop vaping. I just would like to know.

    Anyone know a real testing chemist to ask about this ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2014
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  11. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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  12. Thunderball

    Thunderball Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years

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  13. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    When a company claims "diacetyl free!" we know it can mean they're using substitutes like acetyl propionyl and acetoin. I can name 3 off the top of my head.

    So when the claim is "diacetyl and acetyl propionyl free" I can't help but think "acetoin."

    Research and biochemistry indicate that the 3 biggies (acetoin, diacetyl, acetyl propionyl) are molecularly so similar that they likely have similar effect on human cells. If you find one of them unacceptable, you should reject them all. If one is acceptable to you, then they should all be acceptable. Which choice any one of us makes is irrelevant. Vape-related businesses that hype none of 1-2 of these are making MISLEADING claims, either intentionally to gain business, or through ignorance.
     
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  14. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    So you are saying that they (juice makers>Baker's White, thevapebarstore.com, NicVape) did it for more business or they are stupid?

    here is something else of interest..

    Carol Oszczakiewicz Abraham
    October 2
    For any juice makers in this group, please check out the following and private message me/them any questions. There are manufacturers coming together already and I believe this is a fantastic opportunity , especially for smaller vendors, to unify their voices and dollars for proper testing.

    https://www.facebook.com/eliquidsafetycooperative?ref=br_tf


    Please look him up and say the same thing.. I hope you both can have a chat.. if you have any questions..

    after looking at both sides.. I am not trying to start anything.. despite what some might think.. or i hope they wont.. ;)
    we do have people coming together about the chemical end of things, and any help we can give them would be appreciated.
     
  15. wllmc

    wllmc VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 4 Years VU Challenge Team ECF Refugee VU Challenge Sponsor Vape Media

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    agreed with this
     
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  16. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    Basic easy chemistry: acetoin, acetyl propionyl, and diacetyl have similar chemical structure

    Biochemistry: the three are predicted to have similar effect on human tissue due to the ketone groups in the compounds

    Existing research to date: supports the above statement; no contradictory findings; no contradictory findings are expected

    Common sense: All should be viewed as equivalent substances for vaping. If any one of them is unsafe, all are. If one is safe, all are. Test for all, or don't bother testing.

    Notice I don't mention my opinion (or any opinion) there at all.
    I am not "saying" anything about any company.
    I am stating basic facts.

    Now.... here is my opinion.

    Any company that does NOT understand the above may truly believe it's great to be "free" of one or two of the substances, ignoring the other(s).

    Any company that DOES understand the above and advertises they're free of 1 or 2, while ignoring the rest -- believes WE are too stupid to understand.
     
  17. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    much better understood, HIC.. thank you! :)

    maybe someone should tell that group too.. at least have them understand..
     
  18. Botboy141

    Botboy141 Bronze Contributor

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    I think we should consider expanding our belief of potentially harmful chemicals as well beyond just Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl (The Big 3)

    Butyric Acid CAS# 107-92-6 - RISK: Minor - This is another component found in most butter flavors. This is what TFA and CAP are using to replace the 'Big 3' in their V2 version of flavors. MSDS indicates 'Hazardous in case of inhalation'. Another Source Here.

    Furfuryl Alcohol CAS# 98-00-0 - RISK: MAJOR - Another component found in some of our juice, notably TFA Pie Crust, TFA Cinnamon Sugar Cookie, TFA Black Sesame Seed and TFA Brown Sugar Extra (known to contain Furfuryl Alcohol) has been studied to increase the risk of cancer in rats and is noted:
    OEL = Occupational Exposure Limit HERE (PDF Download Scientific Committee on Occupational Exposure Limits EU).

    I'm sure there are plenty more that I haven't even begun to dig into yet, I've only just recently started researching what our artificial flavors contain in terms of chemical and chemical structure (part of sending my juices out to be tested and not knowing what some of these ingredients/chemical compounds being sent back to me really are).
     
  19. LoveVanilla

    LoveVanilla Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Yeah I think we can and should make a list of ingredients that likely should be avoided. I can upload all ingredients from TFA (thank you TFA) and a searchable site that collates safety info from a wide range of sources. If we can get volunteers to split the work...

    Oh crap, wait... Sorry, my db server just fried its motherboard... I'm rebuilding tomorrow; worst case should finish NLT than Wednesday.

    The list is not huge, so if we split the work seems we could easily accomplish within a week or two. Might be a list that forever changes vaping for the better!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
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  20. Botboy141

    Botboy141 Bronze Contributor

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    I would be more than happy to volunteer, I'm not the best googler on the planet but this is basically what I'm doing on my own as I come across things anyways. At the very least, we'll have a comprehensive list of components and greater knowledge of them. I'm also no scientist so a lot of these more comprehensive studies I don't really understand much of what I read, but I know how to read 'cancer' and 'inhalation danger'. o_O
     
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  21. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    Thing is, i did not start this thread to make others ticked or mad at me..
    i hope every one realizes this.. it'd hurt me to think that anyone got mad..
    have been thinking on this all night..

    i'd rather us all be safe than sorry 40 years from now.. if we are still around..

    as far as anything else.. if i see it, i will post it..

    if any one thinks this is bad.. just wait for the fda and other abc run agencies will become..
    remember.. some one always can be traced back to a money trail :)
     
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  22. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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  23. HeadInClouds

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  24. MD_Boater

    MD_Boater Silver Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Smoky, don't sweat the small stuff. Tough cookies if anyone got mad at you. You have valid questions and concerns. You didn't make this shit up. Some of the comments and reactions that I've seen in both of these threads has been quite surprising to me.

    And the jury is still out on this. All of the current knowledge about the effects of these compounds is based on their effects in non vaping environments. Popcorn lung was discovered based on employees in environments where the airborne concentrations of diacetyl were off the charts. Some were exposed to powdered flavorings, others to steam from the production of liquid flavorings. In either case, the exposure conditions, duration, and quantities are not comparable to what we get from vaping. There are people who have been vaping heavily since 2007. I am certain that some of these folks have vaped at least some diketone laced liquids frequently, if not regularly. Maybe 7 years is not enough for symptoms to present, but we still haven't seen any cases of popcorn lung that can absolutely be tied to vaping. It is entirely possible that the simple fact that they are suspended in a PG/VG solution prevents them from causing harm. We just do not know yet, so being cautious is the way to go.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
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  25. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    Thanks MD_ ;) I appreciate your post.. :)

    i have always leaned that the pg is making me highly allergic..
    thing is.. i have noticed.. and it's not just the pg.. or maybe it's the flavors..
    (its definitely noticed if I vape pg alone)
    but i cough and sound so horse and my voice just kills me when I talk..
    it's like i have been to a week long concert and screamed every minuet i was there..
    and it's only on the tfa, lo, fw side..
    i don't have many on fa tho.. that make me sound like that..
    and so far, all of the nicvapes and a lot from vz, are really good for me..
    but none of the alcohol, super concentrated, or my home extracts cause me to do all this..

    once (pg) in any percentage hits my throat, it just kills me..
    in fact, it is getting worse.. it's also why i drip.. it's easier on my throat for no throat hit..
    this is why i want to know.. I probably should go get an allergy test done..
    my main study was in biology in high school and the college courses i took, i dont use them either..
    if i only had a chem degree :D :D

    but at least i do understand how to educate myself and how to ask questions.. I try!!

    my main idea for this, is to find flavors that are known to be safe to sub out those that are not..
    id rather help us all out with this, as we all learn.. :)
     
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  26. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    will take a look thru there, HIC, and thanks :)
     
  27. Botboy141

    Botboy141 Bronze Contributor

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    Just thought I should throw this in here.

    I just got off the phone with Linda at TFA.

    They are currently developing a new process for GC/MS to test specifically for diketones that has proved much more consistent than what other labs have been churning out. They are working on getting it published and getting themselves set up as a certified lab facility. They have the capability to run GC/MS analysis on site, but it's for 'educational purposes only'.

    TFA and FA bout the only ones I trust nowadays...OSDIYS publishes their GC/MS results as well, unfortuantely, eight of their fifteen in house flavors contain diacetyl...
     
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  28. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    I talked with Nicvapes too.. they test for 2 out of 4, and will look into further testing..
    they also test juices too..

    can do a tour with them sometime next month, and hope i can get some pix while i am there..
    I was told I can bring my 14 yr old with me, but i do have to sign I am fully responsible for him while we are there.. :)
     
  29. Botboy141

    Botboy141 Bronze Contributor

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  30. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    i dont know.. botboy.. i dont use any either..
    due to a bad experience with mbv ;)
     
  31. LoveVanilla

    LoveVanilla Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Those are percentages rather than ppm, so assuming rough equivalency of harm with dicetyl, some of those flavors contain massive quantities of Acetoin. And based on test results shown earlier this year, I would guess they only recently started substituting the Acetoin for Diacety. I don't trust FW any farther than I can throw 'em.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2014
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  32. Mr.Mann

    Mr.Mann Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Yeah, I was messing around with some Capella V2s and to me, it still has some diketone notes, but maybe it's really acetoin? Of course that's probably splitting hairs. My point is just that even some of the V2s or reformulated concentrates may be smoke and mirrors, so I would just as soon use the originals but at a very low percentage. As of now I find that I can get really great flavor-shaping quality, and taste, by just using .1-.25% flavoring from some of the stronger diketone laden flavors like Capella French Vanilla. Their Simply Vanilla is pretty light on the diketones from what I can tell, so that one can't stand up to heavy dilution (I use that one at around 3-5% when I do use it -- and that's high for me). But, the ones that can be heavily diluted (the ones that smell like sweet butter) I will likely just use sparingly, if and when I feel like I have to just to get a flavor right.

    As far as I can see it, the big problem with these notes is that some vapers continue to want the notes, but are also battling with finding an alternative becasue they don't want to vape diketones. I am not so certain the alternative to it exists without being a member of that family, which would kinda defeat the purpose. So for those of us that want to be completely clear of those chemicals, it *may* mean re-configuring what (y)our desired vape will taste like. I am not in the zero-tolerance camp, but I am definitely formulating new ideas for DIY liquids so I don't feel like those elements are even needed. It's not all that easy as of now though -- it's *almost* like being a sugar-free pastry chef, or better yet, a chef in general that avoids using fats.

    At the end of the night/the beginning of the day, we do have Flavourart!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  33. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    i don't know.. i simply went by the testing and flat out removed all of mine..
    i am such a goof when i mix, if i don't then chances of them getting back into my juice i am making..
    and i am noticing i am not coughing as much..

    i want to try and see if me vaping the good stuff for a few weeks will really work..
    i know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am allergic to pg.. but this has me wondering too..
     
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  34. Mr.Mann

    Mr.Mann Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    For me, I have a noticeable not-so-good feeling in my chest when I vape the extra-heavy diketone liquids at higher than 3% (but only if I vape them out of an RDA), so I wouldn't doubt that it could be the case for you.
     
  35. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    that is why i am trying to "get free" from the bad stuff for right now..
    so far so good.. but i do miss my cream juice i made.. i might convert it over to fa..
    will see how it goes..

    i only have one juice that is in high percentage, the rest hover between 2% and 5%

    i do know the heavy feeling you are talking bout..
    it makes my lungs rattle at night and my nose gets congested really quick..
    but i am also wondering if change of weather has anything to do with it too..
    will see.. :)
     
  36. Mr.Mann

    Mr.Mann Bronze Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    There may be some that say most of this is in my head since prior to the study I wasn't complaining about my liquids when many of them obviously had high percentages of this stuff, but two things happened, essentially, at the same time around the study coming out that made for the issue to become much more apparent: 1) I began seriously DIYing and 2) I began using RDAs in a much more frequent fashion. Earlier this year I was still primarily using my trusty 510 atties, and those just don't put out copious amounts of anything besides TH, so not only was I not devouring liquid, I wasn't taking in copious amounts in one hit. DIYing in conjunction with RDAs shows me exactly how those chems make me feel (at least in great amounts). Even premade liquids I have from before (that I KNOW have diketones) don't get vaped out of my RDA becasue the nic is all 24 mg and above, so I can't really speak on how they do or don't make me feel out of an RDA.

    Okay, what is my point? Hmm...dunno really. I think with all of this, the amount -- or as they say -- the dose makes the poison. If I have a diketone laden liquid and I go through all of 1/2 mL a day (like I used to with my 510s), it's likely not a problem (or at least not a problem that I felt), but going through 1/2 mL of heavy diketones in one breath, like it can from an RDA, sure as hell changes the equation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2014
  37. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    i have to agree with you, drippers to make it more intense..

    then again, i was never much for the cartos atties and tanks..
    the first month, i found that out really quick..
    i started out using a kanger horizontal bottom coil and yanking the stuffing out to drip with..
    been dripping ever since, however.. with rdas :)
     
  38. Huckleberried

    Huckleberried Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I never heard very much about it all until I started researching DIY. Needless to say, I'm glad I got into it. Otherwise, I'd still be vaping all that all day long.
     
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  39. LoveVanilla

    LoveVanilla Bronze Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    I purged diketones back in the Spring and have never looked back. But make no mistake, it is an incredibly huge and undoubtedly more significant step to quit cigarettes. That said, I do like my flavors and am not yet willing to go flavorless. However, with so options the diketone risks are just not worth it in my book. That's my dog and youngest son in the photo; also have a lovely wife and two older sons.
     
  40. EthelMaltol

    EthelMaltol Silver Contributor

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    I'm one of the few who does not use fb, so I can't see your link. The nicvape flavorings are free of diacetyl and ap? Do they report butyric acid? This seems to be the substitute aka vomit flavoring, lol! Have you tried Nude Nicotine? They publish their reports, I haven't dug through them, yet. I want to vape as safely as possible. I also mix for a few people and that bothers me more than what I vape myself. I dont mind sacricing flavor. I just want testing and honesty. The bottom line though is that even the bad stuff is better than smoking! :)
     
  41. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    NicVape apparently uses acetoin instead of the others.

    Nude Nic also uses acetoin, according to (is it Jake?) a guy there who posted over on the other forum.
     
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  42. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    Only NicVape can answer all that.. and so far, i can not get a straight answer from them.
    I do think I will put off working with them until I do hear from them..
    but i am not holding my breath..
     
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  43. EthelMaltol

    EthelMaltol Silver Contributor

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    Argh, this is not good news.... Yes, HIC, his name is Jake, from Nude, he has a show on vapers.tv on Tuesday nights. Smoky, you would think NicVape would be responsive to vapers, if that is their target group, but maybe we are asking the questions they don't want to answer? If we complain about one ingredient, it seems that they replace it with another, which could even be worse. That being said, I do want to reiterate that it is still better than smoking!
     
  44. Smoky Blue

    Smoky Blue VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years Unlisted Vendor

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    who knows.. o_O
     
  45. The Vape Space

    The Vape Space New Member Unlisted Vendor

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    I agree man, the constant assertions without evidence, both from flavoring manufacturers, and from vendors themselves drove me up a wall. If you want to advertise this as such, then get it tested and prove it. So, that's what I did with my juice, you can find the PDFs on the product page, and know what you're getting is safe. www.thevapespace.com

    The butyric acid is a hit or miss replacement, it does give off a slight funk that needs to be complimented by something to thicken/heat it up. I think we may have done this spot on with Jesus Juice, but need some more market feedback on it.
     
  46. Ld3441

    Ld3441 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    You only have juice? Or do you sell flavors as well?
    Since this is the DIY section, I don't think many buy juice.
     
  47. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    So you're using butyric acid in your products? Do you esterify or just dilute?
    Why do you consider dilute butyric acid a superior (safer?) alternative to better-known ketones and diketones, like acetoin, diacetyl, etc.?
     
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  48. The Vape Space

    The Vape Space New Member Unlisted Vendor

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    I understand that, but there was a discussion about the lack of disclosure, and I was here with the "not all juice companies" schpeel.

    We just dilute it! It does seem to be a much better alternative than diketones, there isn't a documented danger, and it has been used (in other markets) for a while.

    Just a little edit: the documented danger of brochiolitis obliterans is far greater than any of the large dose contact symptoms regarding butryic acid (sore throat, gastrointestinal discomfort, etc).
     
  49. Ld3441

    Ld3441 Silver Contributor Member For 3 Years

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    Gotcha ;)
     
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  50. HeadInClouds

    HeadInClouds Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Vape Media Unlisted Vendor

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    Thank you for the clarification. While you're right that "other markets" (and some flavoring companies) have begun using dilute butyric acid as their latest diacetyl substitute, I have not seen any studies that show this ketone is chemically more stable or "safer" in human tissue than the more popular alternatives. The principals of chemistry would not seem to support that claim. If there is conflicting evidence to the contrary, I'd sure like to see it.

    Now, certain esters of butyric acid can indeed stabilize the molecule. As far as I know, none of the U.S. flavor companies bothers with that step.
     
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