I know but I was quoting the possibility of using a non modded setup at 150-200w
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New TFV4 Vertical coil RBA
- Thread starter OneBadWolf
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LutherBlissett
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I did it yayyy!
Nice!!! How's it vape??
Its awesome 
I tried a vertical on an unmodified single a while back. I liked it, but because of all the rayon, it was a little too tight of a draw for me. I might try one again soon. This was a 24awg, 7 wrap spaced, 3mm, .75 ohms. I didn't have any issue with wicking, no leaking, flooding, or dry hits, but I didn't push the watts very high. I don't remember for sure, but probably around 40-45 watts. I had just started vaping then, so I didn't like warm vape. I've got some 22awg I might try this time. I can handle the warmer vape now. If I do, I'll get a picture before it's wicked. But I basically just tried to mimic a video I saw on YouTube.
I'll have to find something to wrap around. My screwdrivers only go up to 3mm. I have a drill bit set, though.
Also, that was like my second build...so I didn't really know what I was doing. Still don't most of the time.
Thats pretty ambitious for a second build!
Yeah, but the best way I learn is to just jump in head first.
Sink or Swim, seems like you're swimming just fine, now to just refine your technique.
Do you remember which video?
This one.
Vapomizer
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mmmmm, leg power loss on that build is going to be significant, why is everyone going for vertical builds, i can't see any difference between verticals and horizontals apart from having the ability to stuff so much more cotton around the coil with verticals, and hence the "improved flavor" myth,
If your build deck is large enough that allows you to use a dual 3mm horizontals like in the case of the Griffin, then build is able to take a good amount of cotton giving a killer flavor, i think Verticals' advantage is being able to stuff a lot more cotton in tight spaces ...
If your build deck is large enough that allows you to use a dual 3mm horizontals like in the case of the Griffin, then build is able to take a good amount of cotton giving a killer flavor, i think Verticals' advantage is being able to stuff a lot more cotton in tight spaces ...
lol I'm guessing you havn't tried it, but of course, you are perfectly correct. We just started this thread to try and trap you. So did all the manufacturers who employ vertical coils as part of their design, including Smok, Aspire, Youde, Eleaf and many others. You should email them with your amazing leg loss theory, and CAD drawings of all the atomisers you have designed. You could revolutionize vaping!
Or perhaps you have some imaginary scratches to attend to, or some moderaters who might not turn a deaf ear to your whining this time, because again, nobody is going to put up with your crap.
For anybody that has not had the pleasure of encountering Vapomiser priour to this, he is famous for authoring a thread titled "Worst Product Quality in the Universe! Horrible! Horrendous!" pertaining to his Cuboid that he THOUGHT has a scratched display, but really was just the protective film.
He then became indignant and complained to the mods that he was being picked on for his stupidity, to which they did nothing, and then asked that they delete his embarrasment of a thread, which they also refused to do. He eventually changed the title.
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Vapomizer
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For disposable coil heads verticals make sense, because it allows for more wraps and more cotton into the tiniest space possible hence enhanced performance and flavor, but for rebuildables with spacy build decks i doubt the benefit will be that significant, what is the difference between verticals and horizontals? both have cotton touching from one side and airflow coming from the other, should be very close in performance given the same amount of wraps, ID and cotton volume, but if verticals allow for more to be stuffed in some shell types then it will sure be improved, not because it is aligned vertically.
That is just my opinion, not trying to "revolutionize vaping" LOL, get real, vaping is just a simple heating element vaporizing a liquid, not rocket science or microprocessors, not much opportunity for a revolution here, just my opinion, learn to accept different views as many things is vaping are subjective
That is just my opinion, not trying to "revolutionize vaping" LOL, get real, vaping is just a simple heating element vaporizing a liquid, not rocket science or microprocessors, not much opportunity for a revolution here, just my opinion, learn to accept different views as many things is vaping are subjective
This is just a theory here, but it could be the way the air flows directly up through the coil, chimney, and drip tip. Seems like there would be less heat loss. They seem pretty similar to the dragon coils I've seen in RDAs, but without the wicking stuck in the bottom of the coil. You're right, there really is no more surface area, though.
Vapomizer
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Also leg power loss is a significant problem with verticals, having long legs of 20mm or so in total results in a power loss to the leg of around 25% according to steam-engine, legs get heated up unnecessarily, with a regulated mod with a 90% chip efficiency, that amounts to over 30% of battery output being wasted between the controller chip and coil legs, resulting in shorter battery life between charges.
Why else do you think that the aforementioned manufacturers use a nonresistance-resistance-nonresistance wire design for disposable verticals? the wire made of SS, Kanthal or Nichrome with the legs made of different Ni alloys? it is to prevent legs power loss and unnecessary heating, but that is something a machine can do, for homemade rebuildables with an all resistaive wire, verticals have efficiency disadvantages.
Again just my opinion .. so relax!
Why else do you think that the aforementioned manufacturers use a nonresistance-resistance-nonresistance wire design for disposable verticals? the wire made of SS, Kanthal or Nichrome with the legs made of different Ni alloys? it is to prevent legs power loss and unnecessary heating, but that is something a machine can do, for homemade rebuildables with an all resistaive wire, verticals have efficiency disadvantages.
Again just my opinion .. so relax!
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I agree leg loss is a concerning effect. However, through trial and error again, it just seems the best I could do with the TFV4 was the modified single RBA deck and a vertical coil. Now, if I had the desire to create some micro fused claptons on the Dual RBA maybe they could match or exceed it, but the what I had going wasn't beaten by anything but the Griffin with a dual fused Clapton. Aside from the Genesis Style RTA's which were much better flavor but no where near the vapor production (clouds).
There's a point where theory becomes questionable, Do you actually understand everything involved and are able to eliminate all variables, Well, in Vaping I think most of us are more mad scientists more than actual ones. We thrive on trial and error more than the notepad. I can say through trial and error that the best vape I got on the TFV4 was with the vertical build. I'm interested in trying a fused clapton 28g in vertical to see how ti works because I think it'd be splendid. Anyways I thought my Twisted horizontal dual RBA build was better than the premades, but the modified single coil vertical just killed everything else by far. questionable as the general physics and understanding may be the results were pretty conclusive to me.
There's a point where theory becomes questionable, Do you actually understand everything involved and are able to eliminate all variables, Well, in Vaping I think most of us are more mad scientists more than actual ones. We thrive on trial and error more than the notepad. I can say through trial and error that the best vape I got on the TFV4 was with the vertical build. I'm interested in trying a fused clapton 28g in vertical to see how ti works because I think it'd be splendid. Anyways I thought my Twisted horizontal dual RBA build was better than the premades, but the modified single coil vertical just killed everything else by far. questionable as the general physics and understanding may be the results were pretty conclusive to me.
The posative lead is actually the same length or shorter than a horizontal, and under the coil, (heat rises) the negative is insulated by the cotton. So much for your 30% power loss.
In a factory coil, the legs are double the length we are using, because the factory coils leads go all the way down the the base of the coil head. That is why they weld different wire in the middle. Of course you could try it for yourself.... You do own a TFV4 don't you?
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Vapomizer
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Air coming directly through the hot coil and probably not given the chance to condense on the containing shell surface will probably enhance vapor quality and flavor a bit, but the question is, is the enhancement significant enough to account for the efficiency issues encountered with verticals and the much inconvenient wicking techniques?
If it takes 5 minutes to wick a horizontal coil, it takes 15 to wick a vertical one, with verticals wicking is not easy and takes time and trial and error to master, also you get slightly different results every time, wicking horizontals is much easier, faster, and more consistent, you get the same results every time, and can tell what the wick performance will be by the tension you sense when pulling the cotton through the coil.
I was doing only vertical builds at first just because it was a trend, but then i tried horizontals, was much easier to build and wick and i do not notice any difference in vaping performance or flavor, actually horizontal is performing better because i get instant ramp up, with 5mm legs vs. the 20mm+ legs on the verticals i was making which used to take a second or so to ramp up, i could always sense the delay with verticals and had to press the fire button one or so second before taking the hit, not the case with horizontals.
Vapomizer
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Totally agree, trial and error many times contradict theory and is the best method by which to achieve your preferred vaping configurations.
I don't think you appreciate the import of such a personage as Vapomiser gracing us with his prescence in this thread. He has achieved hyper awareness, and his opinions are remarkable. Such insight.
Please Vapomiser, enchant us with more of your.... stories. Tell us again the one about the scratches!!!
Vapomizer
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the negative leg, insulated or not, electricity still has to be pushed through a long resistive wire to reach the coil, which results in that wire heating up (even if that heat is absorbed through wet cotton it is still being generated and power consumed) and a ramp up delay.
Been always doing verticals in the Crown and the Subtank for a long time, only started doing horizontals with the Griffin, was going to do verticals in it, but the wicking inconvenience discouraged me, so i tried horizontals and never went back.
Vapomizer
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A few advantages to verticals i was able to pick up and collect from this chat, contrary to the generalized assumption that "verticals produce better flavor" in general
1- Ability to fit more wraps and more cotton into small shells resulting in more liquid being absorbed and vaporized over larger surface area.
2- Ability to draw liquid to the middle of the wick instead from the bottom with some shell types like disposable coil heads and the new Rafale VRBA resulting in more uniform wicking.
3- Having the positive leg shorter than the negative leg makes heat "climb" through the coil heating from the bottom up.
4- Preventing some of the vapor from condensing before reaching the drip tip by pulling it through a hot coil
These benefits come at the disadvantages of lost power efficiency and less convenient wicking techniques.
Looks like verticals are best in small spaces, would not apply to Velocity style rebuildables, this is when vertical advantages become questionable.
Thanks guys for helping me organize my thoughts about vertical vs horizontal coils which i been thinking about for quite a while.
1- Ability to fit more wraps and more cotton into small shells resulting in more liquid being absorbed and vaporized over larger surface area.
2- Ability to draw liquid to the middle of the wick instead from the bottom with some shell types like disposable coil heads and the new Rafale VRBA resulting in more uniform wicking.
3- Having the positive leg shorter than the negative leg makes heat "climb" through the coil heating from the bottom up.
4- Preventing some of the vapor from condensing before reaching the drip tip by pulling it through a hot coil
These benefits come at the disadvantages of lost power efficiency and less convenient wicking techniques.
Looks like verticals are best in small spaces, would not apply to Velocity style rebuildables, this is when vertical advantages become questionable.
Thanks guys for helping me organize my thoughts about vertical vs horizontal coils which i been thinking about for quite a while.
That about sums up the advantages. On my Griffin I'm perfectly happy with the horizontal dual coils and wouldn't even bother trying vertical. However on a single coil build I would try the vertical primarily. With the TFV4 because it doesn't have all that much space in it's deck, the vertical simply outshines the horizontal possibilities I've tried. Now, someone like Raymo might have gotten better luck with his micro fused claptons, but I question whether he'd have gotten even more out of them in a vertical build. Like you said, you have a lot of vertical space to work with, more than you do horizontally.
Vapomizer
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I have a much clearer idea now about the differences between both coil orientations than i had before this small chat, i did not notice at the time i posted my first comment that the OP had a moded single coil RBA for that build, i happened to just jump at the end of the thread with that vertical build picture and made my comment.
After reviewing the thread from the beginning, i totally agree, that vertical build would indeed without a doubt provide exceptional performance compared to a horizontal build on that particular RBA.
And yes, wicking a vertical dual build in the Griffin is a waste of time for the marginal added benefit and for an RTA that is already over performing for my needs.
I decided to not cut my cap or fill the juice wells yet
[/QUOTE]
Mom
So. After quashing my treacherous assistant's attempt to join the Boilermakers Union, things in the lab are back to normal. For some time Igor has been whining about how with all of the options the TFV4 offers for coils and RBAs, there did not exist a vertical coil RBA. There was the brilliant dual coil RBA, and it's special needs little brother, the anemic and sickly single coil RBA.
Well, I'm pleased to announce, Its alive!!!!!
The transformation is complete. Dr.s Drill, and Dremel have worked their sinister magic, and here it is! The Frankencoil!
0.23 ohm, 4mm 22 gauge 304 stainless coil, on a slightly modified single RBA deck. Same airflow as the stock quad coil, but this monster can be chainvaped at 160 watts Max VG. Feast your eyes on little "Frankie"!
Mom
How did you vape at 100 watts? I can't get past 44 there's not enough air? Please help me out
So. After quashing my treacherous assistant's attempt to join the Boilermakers Union, things in the lab are back to normal. For some time Igor has been whining about how with all of the options the TFV4 offers for coils and RBAs, there did not exist a vertical coil RBA. There was the brilliant dual coil RBA, and it's special needs little brother, the anemic and sickly single coil RBA.
Well, I'm pleased to announce, Its alive!!!!!
The transformation is complete. Dr.s Drill, and Dremel have worked their sinister magic, and here it is! The Frankencoil!
0.23 ohm, 4mm 22 gauge 304 stainless coil, on a slightly modified single RBA deck. Same airflow as the stock quad coil, but this monster can be chainvaped at 160 watts Max VG. Feast your eyes on little "Frankie"!
There is extreme change drilling out the top cap. I finally did last night and am so happy I did. Some how the air flow is way better. The draw is a little gurgly but hell I can draw without all the juice in my mouth and I have hit up to 60w witch is good as I rarely hit over 60w with the pre built. I wish I had some temp control wire to see what I can accomplish
What sort of wire are you using? I used 22 gauge SS. What is the resistance of your coil? And finally, which prebuilt coil are you using? I find most of the prebuilt coils like about 70 + watts.
If you block the juice channels, the gurgling should stop.
I only own a1 kenthal 22 gauge and 20. I went with 9 wraps .38 ohm 20 gauge kenthal. I'd love to test my skills in temp control but don't have the funds any longer to toss at different types of wire. Sadly this is what I got. Also it's a 4mm maybe 5 mm coil. Prebuilt coils I like the q4 but can't have 3 out of five leaking when I spent 20 on the pack. Smok cares little about problems like that. Aspire is sending me a free rda for the cleito cause of the fail rate of the .4 coils and my adamant bitching
Didn't push the pre built past 47watts cause they were expensive and at that wattage would at most last a week. I'm on day three and only re wicked cause I drilled holes. Thanks for the idea. I really can't explain why there is more air flow tho. All I did was removed vacuum from the tank internally. That should have no barring on the direct air flow
Another rewicking and it's no more gurgles. Guess I didn't have enough in. Put some so called max vg in the wicking I had originally and it must have been 70vg cause it started leaking out. I really wicked and no gurgle no leaks. I doubted being able to leave a full tank in over night without major leaking but I was wrong. I started with a bit around it like enough that you'd think it was good and shoved the same amount in the new and old juice wells. The more cotton the better.
I love finding these old threads that showcase creativity. I would have never thought to do this. I'm currently getting to know the Rafale VRBA. I always thought it would be nice to replicate vertical coils in a subohm tank. Especially when their factory counterparts are styled this way. Anyways, cool thread.So. After quashing my treacherous assistant's attempt to join the Boilermakers Union, things in the lab are back to normal. For some time Igor has been whining about how with all of the options the TFV4 offers for coils and RBAs, there did not exist a vertical coil RBA. There was the brilliant dual coil RBA, and it's special needs little brother, the anemic and sickly single coil RBA.
Well, I'm pleased to announce, Its alive!!!!!
The transformation is complete. Dr.s Drill, and Dremel have worked their sinister magic, and here it is! The Frankencoil!
0.23 ohm, 4mm 22 gauge 304 stainless coil, on a slightly modified single RBA deck. Same airflow as the stock quad coil, but this monster can be chainvaped at 160 watts Max VG. Feast your eyes on little "Frankie"!