Of vaping studies & nonsmokers

[peachyclouds]

Hi all,

So here's the deal. I've never used a tobacco or nicotine product in my life. I started vaping in late April because I was having this odd craving to smoke something and was determined not to end up a lifelong smoker like my mom. Now it's kind of part of my life. I consider myself a light vaper - I take a couple puffs here and there if I'm irritated sitting in traffic, when I'm around smokers, or in the evenings while I job search. Even though I've always used nicotine free juice, I feel it helps me de-stress. I'm stuck in a job I hate that's not in my field and I find I'm less annoyed by the constant job search and less likely to wander off course and browse shopping sites when I can take a 10-second break for a puff every once in a while.

Then there's my dad. He's one of those people who can't understand or accept opinions and lifestyles different from his own. He's disgusted by every form of smoking and vaping in existence and believes it's his mission to scare me out of vaping, it seems, despite the fact that I'm 24 and can make my own decisions. Recently he sent me this link:

http://archive.jsonline.com/watchdo...-dangers-of-vaping-b99631238z1-361343541.html

Admittedly I'm one of those who over-worries about my health, so now I'm questioning my life choices because this is a different issue than the talk of coils burning formaldehyde (which I'm sure has to do with not priming them correctly so is avoidable). But I also don't want to give up vaping because I've given up so much of what I like to do to make time for my job search that I feel like this is that one thing I want to hang onto. I just really like it. Not to mention I've probably sunk a good $300 into vaping already between mods, juice and coils.

Any advice? Am I overreacting or should I dump my vaping habit because I don't "need" it to quit smoking?

 

[Whiskey]

Over reacting, The study is nothing but Data collections from ecig users and non ecig users, and we already know to go easy on the juices that contain diacetyl, nothing new there.

 

[BKTOAD]

That is a choice only you can make.

It is definitely healthier than smoking.

But it is almost certainly not as healthy as not vaping at all.

But the money sunk into gear should not factor into your decision to keep vaping or quit vaping.

 

[peachyclouds]

Over reacting, The study is nothing but Data collections from ecig users and non ecig users, and we already know to go easy on the juices that contain diacetyl, nothing new there.

Actually I hadn't heard about diacetyl prior to this - one of those moments when I'm reminded of how much I still have to learn! How can I tell whether the juice I'm buying and using contains diacetyl?

 

[gakudzu]

You're inhaling more toxins from the traffic you're sitting in, than you are from vaping. Diacetyl inhalation has been linked to a grand total of 8 cases of "popcorn-lung". 7 of whom worked in a popcorn factory, and were breathing diacetyl dust on a daily basis. Cigarettes contain hundreds of times more diacetyl than ejuice. There are no known cases of anyone contracting popcorn-lung from smoking.

Browse around in here a bit. Lots of good info

 

[r055co]

The diacetyl thing is bullshit, it's long been debunked by actual peer reviewed studies. To date there has not been an actual peer reviewed study that shows vaping is harmful. The Royal College of Physicians supports vaping, they're only one of the most respected medical institutions in the world. Facts are they are the ones who first came out against Tobacco and how deadly Tobacco is back in the late 50's. But hey, what would they know, they've only been around for 500 years.

Until any actual legitimate peer reviewed studies come out I'm certainly not going to loose any sleep. Eating Monsanto GMO food has been shown to be toxic and harmful, where's the FDA? Fast tracking their poison.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[AndriaD]

If you're 24, and presumably paying your own way in life, then I'd say it's strictly your decision, to vape or not to vape. You said you were having an odd craving to smoke something, and the times you mentioned that a vape is helpful sound like ideal times when I would have wanted a cigarette -- and vaping is so much better than smoking -- no tar, no stink, no ashes, and most importantly of all, only TRACES of a FEW iffy chemicals -- about the same traces that exist in AIR -- and none at all of actual carcinogens; both PG and VG have been researched for many years, and both are completely safe for human inhalation -- with some differences based strictly on personal tolerances (I can't vape much VG; a lot of others have a hard time with PG, etc). As someone mentioned, sitting in traffic is far worse than vaping even if you vaped every waking minute. But sadly, as you've already discovered, vaping DOES have its share of puritan zealots who are just bound and determined that NO ONE shall have any enjoyment of anything, ever. Don't let it bother you, because they simply don't know what they're talking about.

If you'd like, visit CASAA, the advocacy org for smokeless alternatives, and find some real facts that you can print and show your dad. Help me out here, y'all; is it casaa.org ?

Or, I got this list together today, giving a piece of my mind to some junior politico asshat here in GA:

https://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/
http://www.clivebates.com/
https://antithrlies.com/
http://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/
http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/
http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/
You can find all kinds of excellent, FACTUAL info on any of those sites.

Andria

 

[peachyclouds]

Thanks all! I feel much better already. As I've mentioned, I'm just a worrier and sometimes need someone to TELL me I'm being ridiculous.

 

[peachyclouds]

If you're 24, and presumably paying your own way in life, then I'd say it's strictly your decision, to vape or not to vape. You said you were having an odd craving to smoke something, and the times you mentioned that a vape is helpful sound like ideal times when I would have wanted a cigarette -- and vaping is so much better than smoking -- no tar, no stink, no ashes, and most importantly of all, only TRACES of a FEW iffy chemicals -- about the same traces that exist in AIR -- and none at all of actual carcinogens; both PG and VG have been researched for many years, and both are completely safe for human inhalation -- with some differences based strictly on personal tolerances (I can't vape much VG; a lot of others have a hard time with PG, etc). As someone mentioned, sitting in traffic is far worse than vaping even if you vaped every waking minute. But sadly, as you've already discovered, vaping DOES have its share of puritan zealots who are just bound and determined that NO ONE shall have any enjoyment of anything, ever. Don't let it bother you, because they simply don't know what they're talking about.

If you'd like, visit CASAA, the advocacy org for smokeless alternatives, and find some real facts that you can print and show your dad. Help me out here, y'all; is it casaa.org ?

Or, I got this list together today, giving a piece of my mind to some junior politico asshat here in GA:

https://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/
http://www.clivebates.com/
https://antithrlies.com/
http://velvetgloveironfist.blogspot.com/
http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/
http://www.ecigarette-politics.com/
You can find all kinds of excellent, FACTUAL info on any of those sites.

Andria

Yep. Still haven't been able to figure out where that craving came from or why then, but I felt like I had to do something. Even without nic, vaping has helped so far.

Thanks for the links! I'll definitely click through them if for no other reason than my own education, but I don't think he's the type of person who will look at these and be like, "Wow, suddenly I'm convinced! Vape away!" At this point, I'm just trying to keep the peace, lol.

 

[AndriaD]

Yep. Still haven't been able to figure out where that craving came from or why then, but I felt like I had to do something. Even without nic, vaping has helped so far.

Thanks for the links! I'll definitely click through them if for no other reason than my own education, but I don't think he's the type of person who will look at these and be like, "Wow, suddenly I'm convinced! Vape away!" At this point, I'm just trying to keep the peace, lol.

Yeah, my mom never really got it either; right to the end of her life 6 wks ago, she kept saying, "time will tell." I just figured she was jealous that I was able to quit so easily when it took her 10 years and mega dollars' worth of patches and gum and she STILL craved cigarettes.

Andria

 

[Murray_B]

[...]Any advice?

Vaping is not smoking because nothing is burning. The vapour is similar to the fog produced by glycol-based theatrical foggers since 1979. If the juice does not contain nicotine then vaping is more like aromatherapy than anything else.

The two main ingredients in vape fog are glycerin and propylene glycol and both of those have been classified as GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA for decades. The PG component was registered with the FDA in 1950, "for use in hospitals as air disinfectants."

See https://archive.epa.gov/pesticides/reregistration/web/pdf/propylene_glycol_red.pdf


Most sensible researchers agree that vaping unflavored nicotine juice at low power does not emit toxic combustion products and is safe for long term use. [The ANTZ do not agree but they are quasi-religious zealots and not the least bit sensible.]

Few would dispute the claim made by researchers in a letter to the NEJM a couple of years ago that, "At low voltage (3.3 V), we did not detect the formation of any formaldehyde-releasing agents [...]".

Most would also agree that some devices can emit toxic gasses at high power levels. See chart posted at http://cdn.vapingpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Screen-Shot-2016-10-07-at-22.39.43.png


We still do not know the power level for every common coil where it will start to burn the juice instead of vaporizing it.

Without that knowledge there are still two common things that indicate toxic emissions from vaping gear. They are a soapy taste and/or a sore throat. [Blaming PG for sore throats is a bit of a red herring. because about one in twenty people is bothered by PG but almost everyone that is sensitive already knows it. PG is contained in too many things like ice cream to be avoided by most vulnerable people over the long term.]

 

[happy valley]

IMO, and I assume that's what you're asking, others opinions, had I not been a long time tobacco smoker I would never have started vaping. Vaping for me is a means to an end hopefully, cutting out combustion is the first step. Smoking tobacco was never a hobby for me and I do not want vaping to become one.

 

[AndriaD]

Without that knowledge there are still two common things that indicate toxic emissions from vaping gear. They are a soapy taste and/or a sore throat. [Blaming PG for sore throats is a bit of a red herring. because about one in twenty people is bothered by PG but almost everyone that is sensitive already knows it. PG is contained in too many things like ice cream to be avoided by most vulnerable people over the long term.]

Hmm... I'm not sure about that "1 in 20".... The reason being, I vape 85%-87% PG all the time, with zero ill effect. But when I once tried it at 90% PG, after about a week, I got a really bad sore throat/sore sinuses and nasal cavity. I think PG does have the capacity to be irritating to pretty much anyone, but at differing levels -- some, like me, can stand a lot, but there still comes a point at which it irritates me -- though I've known some vapers that could vape at 90%-95% PG without ill effect. For most, the amount of PG they find irritating is quite a bit less -- 50%-70%. I'm guessing that's one of the major reasons why high-VG vaping has gotten to be so popular -- more people are sensitive to PG's irritation than to VG's congestion.

But as for actual allergy to PG, I definitely think you're right -- it's in so many things, anyone who's reached adulthood probably already knows if they're allergic to it. Most vapers who claim to be allergic to PG are merely sensitive to its irritating/drying effect, not truly allergic.

Andria

 

[Murray_B]

Hmm... I'm not sure about that "1 in 20".... [...]

Well, Andrea, the long term effects of PG vapour have been studied for a very long time.

Here is the result of an animal study from 1947:

See http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/91/1/52

Not too long after Rosco introduced the glycol theatrical fogger in '79 there were several studies of the effects of the fog on humans. It was those studies that showed about one in twenty people suffered temporary eye and/or throat irritation from glycol fog. [Some of those studies included data from foggers that burned mineral oil and those reports do not provide useful information about glycol reactions.]

Sensitivity to glycol is fairly rare but sensitivity to formaldehyde is not. Close to 100% of the population will have adverse reactions to even moderate levels of the stuff. The good news is that most vaping gear can be set to operate at low power levels that do not produce significant amounts of toxic combustion products.

The OP's dad also mentioned an article that raised concerns about flavouring agents. This is a real concern for the entire field of aromatherapy. My wife runs her Saje nebulizer on a regular basis and there does not appear to be much published on the safety of aromatherapy juice. Maybe the FDA should look at the safety of non-vaping aromatherapy too.

 

[Whiskey]

From one of the above linked sources

The Food Quality Protection Act (FQPA) requires that the Agency consider available information concerning the cumulative effects of a particular pesticide’s residues and other substances that have a common mechanism of toxicity. The reason for consideration of other substances is due to the possibility that low-level exposures to multiple chemical substances that cause a common toxic effect by a common toxic mechanism could lead to the same adverse health effect that would occur at a higher level of exposure to any of the substances individually. Unlike other pesticides for which EPA has followed a cumulative risk approach based on a common mechanism of toxicity, EPA has not made a common mechanism of toxicity finding for propylene or dipropylene glycol and any other substances. Neither propylene nor dipropylene glycol appear to produce a toxic metabolite produced by other substances. For the purposes of this action, therefore, EPA has not assumed that propylene or dipropylene glycol have a common mechanism of toxicity with other substances. For information regarding EPA’s efforts to determine which chemicals have a common mechanism of toxicity and to evaluate the cumulative effects of such chemicals, see the policy statements released by the EPA’s Office of Pesticide Programs concerning common mechanism determinations and procedures for cumulating effects from substances found to have a common mechanism on EPA’s website at http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/cumulative.

Smellin me some Anti's

 

[AndriaD]

Well, Andrea, the long term effects of PG vapour have been studied for a very long time.

Here is the result of an animal study from 1947:

See http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/91/1/52

Not too long after Rosco introduced the glycol theatrical fogger in '79 there were several studies of the effects of the fog on humans. It was those studies that showed about one in twenty people suffered temporary eye and/or throat irritation from glycol fog. [Some of those studies included data from foggers that burned mineral oil and those reports do not provide useful information about glycol reactions.]

Sensitivity to glycol is fairly rare but sensitivity to formaldehyde is not. Close to 100% of the population will have adverse reactions to even moderate levels of the stuff. The good news is that most vaping gear can be set to operate at low power levels that do not produce significant amounts of toxic combustion products.

The OP's dad also mentioned an article that raised concerns about flavouring agents. This is a real concern for the entire field of aromatherapy. My wife runs her Saje nebulizer on a regular basis and there does not appear to be much published on the safety of aromatherapy juice. Maybe the FDA should look at the safety of non-vaping aromatherapy too.

I'm not really sure why you're disagreeing with me. I don't disagree that PG is largely harmless, I just think that more people are sensitive to PG's irritating/drying effect, than people are sensitive to VG's congesting effect. I see a lot more folks complaining that their vape irritates their throat, and that's why they have to vape massive percentages of VG -- yet any amount of VG over about 15%, and I can barely breathe at all; feel like I've got a hairball in my chest that I can't get rid of, no matter how I try. I see a few folks who respond to VG much as I do, but most can stand a bit more than 15%.

As for lower wattage levels, I'm vaping at 9.5w-9.8w most of the time; 10w if I wanna really get crazy, but I have to use a longer driptip at 10w or it burns my lips... so I'm not sure that "high wattage" is ANY factor in my own irritation when I get to 90% PG -- it's simply too much, too concentrated. Inhaling the vapor from an e-cig is quite a bit different than just breathing the "fog" that's generalized in a room.

Andria

ETA: and it's "Andria", not "Andrea".

 

[Murray_B]

I'm not really sure why you're disagreeing with me. [...]

ETA: and it's "Andria", not "Andrea".

Sorry, Andria, but I did not notice the different spelling but I will be more careful about the spelling in the future.

My post was intended to answer the OP's question and I was surprized that you commented on my post at all. The OP's dad expressed concerns about formaldehyde emissions and that is a real possibility with some of the more powerful vaping gear. Most researchers agree there are few toxic combustion products from vaping at low power levels but there can be significant toxic emissions from some devices at high power levels. Since few people have access to formaldehyde meters and harmful levels may not be detectable by human senses I pointed out that aldehydes can sometimes be detected by throat irritation or a soapy taste.

Even if high PG fluid can also cause throat irritation that does not mean that vaping at high power levels won't produce formaldehyde. Denying the truth about the potential for toxic emissions will not cause the OP's dad to feel any better about vaping.

 

[AndriaD]

Sorry, Andria, but I did not notice the different spelling but I will be more careful about the spelling in the future.

My post was intended to answer the OP's question and I was surprized that you commented on my post at all. The OP's dad expressed concerns about formaldehyde emissions and that is a real possibility with some of the more powerful vaping gear. Most researchers agree there are few toxic combustion products from vaping at low power levels but there can be significant toxic emissions from some devices at high power levels. Since few people have access to formaldehyde meters and harmful levels may not be detectable by human senses I pointed out that aldehydes can sometimes be detected by throat irritation or a soapy taste.

Even if high PG fluid can also cause throat irritation that does not mean that vaping at high power levels won't produce formaldehyde. Denying the truth about the potential for toxic emissions will not cause the OP's dad to feel any better about vaping.

Oh, I'm not denying it at all; I personally think people are crazy to vape over 20w, but that's just my own opinion; to learn that there actually might be hazards associated with it comes as no surprise to me at all.

I would think that any really bad taste might indicate that one may be vaping something that one really shouldn't -- most of the formaldehyde and/or other toxic gases seem to have been found when the "researchers" deliberately used whatever device was "tested" at power levels and durations FAR exceeding what any human would actually do, because our tastebuds will let us know pretty quickly when something is wrong with the vape -- knowing what laboratory formalin smells like, I'm sure the taste must be GHASTLY. I also had a brief relapse to dual-use after I'd been smoke-free for several months, back in 2014, and have a much clearer idea from that experience (much clearer than when I was a habituated smoker!) of what burning tobacco actually tastes like -- pretty nasty! I'm not surprised a bit that BT has to add a lot of flavoring to cigarette tobacco, as well as topical anesthetics, just to make the experience palatable at all.

Andria

 

[SmokinJoe23]

great read and links to sources- Is E-Liquid dangerous?

 

[Murray_B]

[...] our tastebuds will let us know pretty quickly when something is wrong with the vape [...]

Well, Andria, I still do not know why you are still commenting on my response to the OP's questions but the facts about vaping safety are important.

Nearly two years ago the famous letter to the NEJM was published. It made it clear that there were no measurable toxins from combustion detected when vaping at low power levels. They also claimed to have measured fifteen times more formaldehyde than tobacco cigarettes when the vapour was produced at high power levels. Few serious researchers dispute this claim but point out that no human could tolerate the very acrid taste of vapour produced at those high power levels.

So we have a good idea of what happens at the extremes of low and high power but information about the safety of vaping at moderate power levels is still largely unavailable.

Some vapers maintain that harmful levels of formaldehyde can always be detected by human senses but that simply isn't true. From a EHS Berkely document, " Cal/OSHA limits employees’ exposure to airborne concentrations of formaldehyde to an average of 0.75 ppm over an 8-hour workday. Formaldehyde’s odor threshold (the lowest concentration you can smell) is about 1 ppm. As a sensitizer, subsequent formaldehyde exposures can produce symptoms more quickly and at lower concentrations, while olfactory fatigue can significantly raise the odor threshold concentration."

See http://ehs.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/lines-of-services/workplace-safety/49formaldehyde.pdf

Even data posted by Dr. Farsalinos agrees that formaldehyde levels start to increase rapidly before there is a change in taste. The Geiss et al. chart indicates a rapid increase in combustion starting at about 13 watts but the change in taste is not detectable until about 20 watts.

See http://www.vapingpost.com/2016/10/07/what-do-scientists-think-konstantinos-farsalinos-at-vapexpo-2016-paris/

The OP's dad is correct in that some vaping devices have the potential to produce formaldehyde but any regulated device should also be able to operate at safe and low power levels. Sadly, no vaping shops that I have visited have had ambient formaldehyde meters to confirm safe levels even though the devices can readily be purchased from the larger hardware stores. Without that kind of instrumentation the only ways to detect formaldehyde and other toxic combustion products is by taste, smell, or symptoms of irritation.

 

[Kimtexas1026]

Hi PeachyClouds,

I just wanted to comment on the fact that I'm in a similar "boat" as you. I never smoked traditional cigarettes, but did occasional smoke cloves & hookah (when I visit family, mostly). So I didn't start vaping in order to get off cigarettes, which always raises some eyebrows. LOL I was intrigued by the smell when I first came across some friends who vaped (b/c I hate regular cigarettes, not tempting to me at all). And then I was curious if someone who NEVER smoked, would notice the same "stress relief" from vaping that smokers experience when they smoke a cigarette. You know, the whole "I need a cigarette" thing. So while I know that "not vaping at all" is more healthy than vaping, I also know that vaping is better than smoking.... or doing a lot of other things. I'm sure that having a little sugar in my diet is more harmful than just completely avoiding it (same for alcohol, or caffeine), but if I'm not doing it to excess, then I don't really care about other people's opinions. I agree that there needs to be more research & more long-term studies to know the true effect that vaping has on our bodies, but what matters more to me is my own experience & the things I'VE noticed.

Before I started vaping, I was seriously curious whether anxiety meds might be something I should look into, but I wanted to avoid that b/c I didn't think I was at a level of stress/anxiety where I needed medication (not knocking people who benefit from medication, I just didn't want to go that route if I didn't have to). And I have to say, I'm SO glad I gave vaping a try first, it has been just what I needed in that department. I'm not a doctor, obviously, but for ME it's what works. I am a much calmer driver when I vape (try driving in New England & you'll find any hidden anger issues, I promise you!), I'm not as quick to get aggravated, and most impressive..... I noticed that when I started vaping, I don't have PMS anymore. THAT benefits everyone! LOL So while your dad sounds a lot like my husband & his opinions on vaping, don't let it bother you too much if you enjoy vaping & are getting some benefit from it. You could be doing a hundred OTHER things that are way worse for you than vaping. He should see it from that perspective.