Scientific Study

Discussion in 'Vaping Health Related' started by Dementedarego, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Dear forum members

    Hi, my name is Nuno and I´m from Portugal, in Southern Europe.

    I teach economics at a Portuguese University and I´m currently doing my phd in the area of social marketing (basically social marketing is a sub-discipline of marketing that uses marketing principles not for commercial purposes but to attain societal good).

    I´ve been a vaper for the last 3 years, since I quit smoking, and because I really love the vaping culture I decided to do my phd thesis in a topic related with vaping. I’m a strong supporter of vaping.

    So, my thesis is about social marketing in contexts of uncertainty. My basic proposition is that when there is some uncertainty concerning the benefits/costs of a given therapeutic measure, social marketing should focus on promoting social support. Translating this to vaping, I propose that instead of deciding (with little fundament) what´s good or bad for people, in contexts of some uncertainty, health authorities should promote social support between peers (vapers). Social support can be provided online, as it happens in this forum, and involves forum members proving information, esteem, emotional support and even tangible support to other forum members.

    I use netnography to make this study, which is an adaptation of ethnography to the online environment. So, I will analyse some forums dedicated to vaping and I will search for clues on how forum members provide social support to other forum members in these communities.

    So, with this message, I intend to inform the community about my research, and also ask for your collaboration.

    I will follow some ethical principles in this research, including: a) make my presence and the objectives of the study clear to the community, always use pseudonymous when citing communications in the forum (and not the real nicknames) and after completing my research I will submit the final work to the appreciation of some forum members to validate my conclusions (oldest and more active forum members).

    During my research I will probably interact with some of you asking you some questions and I may ask for an interview with more active forum members.

    Please feel free to ask me any question.

    You can find my webpage from my university in here: https://www.escs.ipl.pt/docentes/nuno-tiago-baptista

    Best regards,

    Nuno
     
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  2. bobnat

    bobnat VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year Moderator

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    Interesting idea.

    This part caught my attention.

    Translating this to vaping, I propose that instead of deciding (with little fundament) what´s good or bad for people, in contexts of some uncertainty, health authorities should promote social support between peers (vapers).

    It's all well and good for forum members to provide support to new vapers. However, take a look at the numbers of sites such as this one. Then consider the numbers of smokers who hear about vaping and wonder about it. Most vapers don't go to forums. Many members were already vaping and had quit smoking before they joined here. Also, look at the number of active members versus the total numbers. I'm simply making the point that the numbers are very small and I wonder if you can pull anything meaningful out of them.

    In my opinion, the best use of government health money would be combating the half-truths and outright lies perpetuated by the media (doing the bidding of all the big money). They should publicly embrace vaping as the best harm reduction therapy for smokers, which WE know it is. Vaping as we know it is under a well-funded, concerted attack on different fronts. Forums that provide emotional support to its members don't measure up to a hair on an elephants ass for the future of vaping. If I saw my health authorities spending money on social support I'd be pissed off. What the hell does that look like anyway? Ads saying "If you want to quit smoking, go to Vaping Underground, they'll help you." Public health money at this point in time needs to be spent on getting the truth out. It should be spent refuting all the bad science being passed off as fact in the mainstream media. It needs to be publicly embraced as the UK has done such as during their month long campaign to promote smoking cessation.

    How in the world you'll pull a dissertation from your proposal escapes me. Also, keep in mind that many of us here are aware of all the bad science that is done in the area of smoking and vaping. We know that scientists are bought like any other commodity. You aren't even a scientist, you're a business major, specifically marketing which has to be the low end of that gene pool. My initial inclination is to trust you as much as I do RJ Reynolds.
     
  3. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Hi bobnat,


    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    People are embracing the Internet as a source of health-related information and support in rapidly increasing numbers. A study found that 61% of American adults look online for health information (Fox & Jones, 2011). Nearly half of internet users who have searched for online health information reported that they have participated in health-related communication (reading or posting messages) on social network sites. SNSs may be of value in facilitating tailored health communication. As of March 2018, Google listed more than 71 million of support groups in the health and wellness category. This can be an indicator of the importance of digital media such as SNSs, blogs and web pages on the provision of support to improve health, acquire new behaviors or get rid of unwanted ones. In more recent times, social networks have started to gain the attention of both the general public and those in the healthcare and medical sectors. Moreover, health issues or questions are identified to be the top three most searched aspects on the Internet. (Pew Internet and American Life Project).

    It may be difficult for governments to combat the half-truths because health studies indicate contradictory results. Government authorities may face a dilemma when deciding what is “good research” and biased and false research about vaping. So, my argument is that when there is uncertainty, authorities should promote interactions, information sharing and emotional support between peers until a definite scientific position is reached, and not assume radical positions against such promising therapies. For example, and considering the contradictory results of health studies about vaping (some studies are completely biased and are financed by tobacco companies), I think that information provided by vapers about the health symptoms they are experiencing when vaping in forums such as this, is more useful for people that ponder adhering to vaping than scientific research. I personally take more credit on the information provided by this site, in the form of personal experiences, than many questionable research.

    This also applies to other therapies such as menopause hormone replacement therapy (HRT), for example. Many women are face difficulties in obtaining medication because some studies have questioned the possibility of HRT causing cancer. And yet, many other studies indicated that this probability is minimal. My reasoning is that government agencies should promote informed decision based on information sharing. Radical positions such as prohibiting innovative therapies indefinitely until a scientific conclusion is reached is against public health interests. Scientific conclusion about the health effects may take decades or may never be reached.

    My study is not a health study. Its a social marketing study. Social marketing aims to help people for the benefit of society. Many social marketing studies are focused on health themes. I´m not part of any especial interest against vaping. On the contrary, I´m also a vaper, so my inclinations may be biased in this respect.
     
  4. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    I have already coded and content analyzed two years of interactions in this forum. So, I have noted that some researchers were approached with suspicion. Rightly so, considering that many studies about vaping are financed by the tobacco industry. This is not may case, I´m just a regular guy doing a phd study, with any kind of financing. That is why I sent you the link of my webpage, for you to confirm my identity. In essence my research is pro-vaping and like I said, the final step of my research methodology will involve sending my study to some of you to obtain your feedback.
     
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  5. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Being a study based on passive nethnography I do not anticipate to bother you much. I already have most of the content I need based on your public interactions. What I need is more your confirmation and opinion about my own thoughts and conclusions. For example, bobnat comments are valuable to me and I interpret them as an indication of how the community self-protects against biased research that hurts vaping.
     
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  6. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Because vaping devices are a new technology, there are no studies observing the long-term health consequences of vaping, thus the potential harms and benefits are still largely unknown. E-cigarettes have been characterized by Public Health England as being around 95% less harmful than combustible tobacco products. However, in a systematic review of 175 studies about health effects of e-cigarettes, Pisinger (2015) indicates very contrasting results. Some studies conclude that e-cigarettes’ vapor contains significant higher quantities of harmful substances when compared with tobacco smoke (particles, harmful metals and carcinogenic nitrosamines), while other studies indicate the contrary, or didn’t even detect the presence of any of these substances. Perhaps important to understand such discrepancies is the consideration that, according to Pisinger, in 34% of the studies he analyzed the authors had stated a conflict of interest or described funding. Because of the power, lobbying and influence of big tobacco companies there may be a concerted effort of tobacco companies to discredit the comparative health benefits of e-cigarettes. It is difficult for health authorities to recognize this and to assume a position. Until a definite conclusion form the scientific community is reached, vaping is at risk and some governments may take the easiest step that is to prohibit vaping based on precaution arguments. My study is against this type of action. I argue that if there is doubt, governments must step aside and let people assume their own decisions based on the best information that is available. Forums such as this are an important source of information, so, yes, I think that they should be supported.
     
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  7. bobnat

    bobnat VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year Moderator

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    Thanks for your well-measured response. I must admit as I replied last night, my ire was rising as I contemplated the state of affairs. I apologize for casting any aspersion on you.

    I have my doubts of how bloated and inefficient government bureaucracies could actually positively promote online interactions between lay people. The thought of the gov't having anything at all to do with an entity such as Vaping Underground sends shivers through my spine. I'd abandon ship if that were to happen. That being said, you most certainly are better versed in this area than most, so I'm interested in seeing what you come up with. I'm sure you'll find a number of folks here who will be willing to help you. Good luck.
     
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  8. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Thank you for your nice words Bobnat. I do realize that it´s not an easy concept to sell to public officers. However, as a public health measure, it makes sense to promote information sharing. I believe that there is more useful knowledge in communities such as this than even in the medical sector. Here we have a knowledge that is based on personal experiences. Many doctors are not well informed about vaping.
     
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  9. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    After my doctor asked me if I still smoke and said I vape now she simply said good.

    I asked her what she thought about vaping ...she said it’s a positive thing and a practical alternative for those who struggle with other measures in the campaign to quit, then went on to say she sees no issue with it personally, the studies she’s read indicated similar things in that there’s questionable analysis carried out by some and would rather i vaped than smoked

    Am in the UK here

    Also to support I had a chest X-ray last year and my lungs were clear, used to smoke 25 a day and felt 20 years older than I do right now.

    Also spoke with my dentist and he said he cannot tell if someone vapes compared with someone that smokes which is obvious except for watching for additional plaque build up on teeth with heavy sweetened flavours so keep on top of brushing and flossing, was pleased with my gums and said my mouth was in tip top shape.

    I don’t know of a single person who hasn’t felt better after transitioning the only thing I do still keep an open mind on is chest infection and additional mucus build up during that time ...personally I notice it will move to my chest if I vape too much when I have a cold so cut back significantly during such times....having said that I get far fewer colds than I used to although I cannot say with authority whether this is as a result of vaping or other factors
     
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  10. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I used to suffer some from mucus buildup from vaping.
    Dropped my VG % to 50 and it went away.
    Tried 70% VG again and it came back.
    So I have been vaping 50/50 for a few years now.
     
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  11. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    Being financed by the tobacco industry is FAR less of a problem than those funded by BIG PHARMA and all their little grunts, a/k/a the "charitable" orgs -- cancer society, lung association, et al, ad infinitum -- there isn't the slightest thing charitable about those orgs, they are bought and paid-for mouthpieces of BIG PHARMA -- a far more evil industry than big tobacco ever thought of being. Big tobacco is losing market share to vaping, yes, but they're also getting into vaping; they may not ever be very successful with it, because the business model is so very different from the behemoth type they're used to -- but they're in there trying, I'll give 'em that. Big Pharma just wants vaping to DISAPPEAR, and they are willing to go to any length to make that happen -- paying off the FDA, congress critters, and all these wild-eyed frothing-at-the-mouth smoke nazis who hate smoking because it smells bad and it gives them an easy way to hate others. Big Pharma stands to lose TRILLIONS on those UTTERLY USELESS patches, pills, sprays, etc, which are marketed for "smoking cessation" but which actually do nothing except make people psychotic, and don't forget all the cancer drugs, COPD/asthma drugs, and all the other expensive poison big pharma sells because tobacco has made those poisons necessary.

    Then there are the tobacco taxes, which have completely corrupted every dogsbody in gov't, and not just in America -- all those countries that have made vaping a crime, it's because they make so much money on tobacco, why should they care if smoking kills people? Those are mostly 3rd world countries where there are so many people, who cares if a few million [EVERY YEAR!] die from smoking, people just keep having babies and not using birth control! And American business is trying as hard as it can to make America the next 3rd world country -- they don't care, as long as THEY GET THEIR MONEY!

    If you really want for gov't to come down on you, just do something that makes lots of taxes and hush-money go byebye -- they will treat you like a rabid dog and do everything in their power to stamp you out. INTELLIGENT vapers have taken appropriate steps to become as independent as possible, so that whatever the gov't does, they can keep vaping. THAT is what "social marketing" needs to be telling people: "stock up on high-concentration nicotine, flavors, batteries, and all the various hardware, so that when the criminals that have corrupted gov't finally get their way, you can keep on vaping."

    Andria
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  12. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    And yes in the USA smokers are a minority, and vapers an even smaller minority with vapers on boards being and even smaller minority.
    I think the majority of active posters on here are what I would call hobbyist vapers.
     
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  13. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    As opposed to those of us who just want to keep not-smoking and not-suffering?

    Andria
     
  14. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    I’d agree with that ...it’s a small market sample in the grand scheme of things having said that many search for information without ever joining a forum that increases the sphere of influence somewhat
     
  15. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    There used to be a vaping forum website here in Belgium (www.vapen.be). It is offline because our government has banned it I think.
     
  16. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Hi Andria,

    I have read all your posts since 2015, so it feels like I know you for a long time. You are a great contributor to this forum. I always found funny when people called you Andrea and you responded “I'm not sure who "Andrea" is.

    I agree with you concerning BIGPHARMA interests. But, I think the tabaco industry is facing many difficulties in adapting to this new industry. It´s a completely new business model. They are buying some Chinese manufacturers and producing vape alike products, but they came late to the party. I understand vaping as a disruptive innovation and history tell us that when these occur, big companies face severe difficulties. The market of vaping hardware is already controlled by Chinese companies and e-liquids are relatively easy to produce. Even if big tobacco companies buy the major players, new Chinese companies will assume their places. In my view, they have already lost the race, and because of that they have big interests in discrediting vaping. Selling nicotine will never be as profitable as selling tobacco for these big tobacco companies because there is no branding involved.

    In respect to taxes, in my country the government is already taxing the nicotine that we use in e-liquids at very high rates. However, from the point of view of government´s revenues vaping should be a positive thing since it will reduce public service health costs significantly. Because of public health service in Europe, the funds that governments receive from tabaco taxation are much inferior, when compared with public health costs caused by tobacco related illnesses, and governments here know that. It’s the big interests of tobacco and the health industry, like you said, that are putting pressure on governments. In America it may be a different scenario.

    Regards,

    Nuno
     
  17. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    I don´t think vaping is such a small market.
    Global sales of e-cigarettes were estimated at 2.8 Billion USD in 2014, 7.1 Billion USD in 2016 and are projected to reach 44.6 Billion USD in 2024 (Hexa Research, 2016). Estimates indicate that in 2014, 3.7 percent of American adults used electronic e-cigarettes on a regular basis, representing more than 9 million of adult consumers (Blair, 2015). A recent survey in the European Union estimated that around 2 percent of Europeans consume e-cigarettes (European Comission, 2017). The problem with the vaping industry in my view is that there are no big players in Europe and the US, and Chinese companies like Companies like Kangertech, Aspire, Innokin, Joyetech, Smok, Tesla, Sense are not lobbying. European and American advocay for vaping should try to finance their efforts near these big companies. The US and European markets are very important for them since vaping is not well established in China.
     
  18. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    I´m not at home (holidays) and I don´t have with me part of my research, I have an SPSS file at home where I coded the positive and negative synthons that people report in this forum, after starting vaping. This is an interesting analysis because it is quantified. If many people report a certain symptom after starting vaping there may be something there. Next week I will pass you this information. But I agree with you, most people feel better.

    Regards,


    Nuno
     
  19. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    ;)


    Yes, VERY different. There is no "public health" in america, it's all FOR-PROFIT -- even medical insurance, FOR-PROFIT, nothing but legalized gambling, and those who actually need it most are the losers. And there really aren't that many costs associated with smoking, as far as "public health expenditures", for a few reasons: 1) smokers die younger; 2) smokers are less willing to go see a doc for every little thing, because they KNOW what they will face: prejudice, bigotry, hatred, and blame for their own ill-health, even if the culprit is actually some microorganism.

    And as I learned very unpleasantly when I had an emergency appendectomy when just less than 4 months smoke-free, there actually are good reasons for some people to smoke, when those people have serious complaints of the digestive tract -- the biggest one is probably Inflammatory Bowel Disease, but even my own IBS, MUCH less of a serious problem, needed the "minor" alkaloids of tobacco in order to recover from the inflammation/injury/insult of appendicitis and then having a chunk of bowel tissue surgically removed. I believe other auto-immune disorders also benefit from tobacco use, and the people with those types of disorders, along with brain-chemistry disorders, find smoking cessation MUCH more difficult than those who don't suffer those kinds of problems -- but when they quit smoking, THEN they do cost a great deal to take care of, just because tobacco use was helping to moderate their symptoms; remove the tobacco use, and you remove that moderation.

    The tobacco industry COULD be helping big pharma learn to use tobacco as a source of medicine, minus all the dangers of smoke -- but big pharma and all their little flunkies have closed their tiny minds to any possiblity of tobacco having any useful purpose, so that won't happen... at least probably not in the next century, if ever. :facepalm:

    Andria

    (as a romance-language speaker, you probably get the spelling difference a lot better than English-speakers do, since in English, "Andria" and "Andrea" sound the same -- but "AHNN-dree-ya" does sound different from "Ahn-DREY-ya." ;) )
     
  20. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Anyone who would wind coils for a butt hole tight atty and mix their own juice must be a hobbyist?
     
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  21. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    Not even close. My hobby is creating fantasy houseplans online, reading books on Kindle, and sleeping till noon. I wind coils because I refuse to pay thru the nose for CRAP that's dead right outta the box, and I use a gnat-'s-asshole atty and mix my own high-PG juice for a really good reason: I LIKE IT THAT WAY.

    But I vape to keep from smoking. Not for a hobby. I didn't smoke for a hobby either.

    Andria
     
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  22. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Vaping is a small market compared to most things in the USA.
     
  23. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    Interesting point of view although China doesn’t really seem to have a stance on vaping laws yet (not including HK), in fact if you start a company up there’s still confusion as what type of company to register as tobacco/electronic etc .....all the time it’s a profitable export vaping will continue to grow over there in this state of confusion.

    They have roughly 300 million smokers in China, the largest market in the world yet to be tapped into, yet vaping hasn’t really taken off like it has in the west.

    So i believe it’ll continue to grow while vaping produce is mainly just an export until such time the Chinese government decides it’s impacting thier own soil then we’ll see the vape companies fall in line under the umbrella of China tobacco

    Other large Tobacco companies are already investing in China for new disruptive tech, then they are working on controlling wholesale and distribution globally, nic production and even have retail under thier belt and then there’s patent rights.. they most certainly aren’t sitting on thier arses waiting for the final death throws so I disagree with you they have lost the race against vaping, they just haven’t turned up the tempo and reacted fully yet, control this lot you set worldwide pricing and the market through supply and demand.

    We like to think vaping is making a large dent in tobacco but really it’s no more than an irritating itch ...700+ billion dollars global tobacco sales (excluding China) annually vs 18 or so billion for vaping ...long way to go before big tobacco craps out and in the meantime they have the deep pockets to absorb legislative moves and lobby in thier favour.

    proprietary pod systems and nicotine delivery systems users have to keep coming back are the missing branding you alluded to ... salt nic in closed systems is the first step....they’ll be working on ever more efficient chemistry to knock juul of the pitch ...so while we wait for that we get juul against the kids campaign

    I bet in some deep dark secret shithole somewhere theres tobacco money funding juuls image smearing and anti news sponsoring in one form or another plus funding those class action suits. They won’t care if they win or not it just smears the image of vaping.


    tax will come and hit the vaping market hard it’s inevitable, it’ll replace cigarette tax like for like at some point as well, and this hobby we enjoy so very much will be bloody expensive to continue, it’s has to after all whether we like it or not it underpins massive tax revenue for governments, not only that many of your pensions state or private absolutely rely on it
     
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  24. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    USA is the world’s leading vape market, with over 9 million users spending around $3.7 billion per year on related products. To give you a reference Americans spend $6.46 billion in running shoes. So, it´s not a mass market, but still an important market.

    I think that tobacco companies are in panic mode. Take the example of Philip Morris. The company invested more than $4.5 billion since 2008 developing “smoke-free” products and what have they came up? With the iqos. And I don´t include here the millions they spent and are still spending to promote the iqos. Their biggest market for the iqos was Japan (how crazy and disappointing must be) and yet, sales have already started to decline in Japan. So, we have a new product, that resulted from year of research and millions of investments, and sales are already declining? What do you think of that?
     
  25. bobnat

    bobnat VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year Moderator

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    It means they missed the mark with that project. Apple missed a few themselves and look where they are today. Big Tobacco has vast amounts of money and political influence. They have the ability to buy the technology and companies if they want. The Chinese may be the world's manufacturer of vape equipment but I'm pretty sure that if the owners of those companies, and any future ones, were given the right price, they'd sell to BT in a heartbeat. They have no political stake in the game being played out in the West so they just don't care.

    Ultimately, the governments of the world will determine the future of vaping for they are the only entities that can out muscle any company in the world. Look at what the US gov't did to AT&T for a prime example. How and why they do so is open for sale as we speak.
     
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  26. KingPin!

    KingPin! In my defence, I was left unsupervised ^^ Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year VU Challenge Team Reviewer

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    getting penetration with the older generation over there and shareholders seeing a slowdown in growth potential are causing headaches for PMI

    Japan tobacco have also undercut the iqos offering thier system (ploom) at half the price understandably that’s going to make a dent in IQOS market share

    There are many countries where vaping is illegal and more where its sort of legal but no nicotine products with it ...such countries are the focus of the smoke not burn tech because tobacco is still the raw ingredient.

    So while It hasn’t taken off in the West, because we are at the moment more tolerant of vaping, they are lining up the ducks to sell it over in the west although I think it’ll flop in comparison to vaping this side unless they can change government thinking and stifle the market

    It’s why I believe they are also doing the other bits I mentioned above... control aspects of the vaping supply chain and you control the beat of the drums making it far easier to disrupt and aquire companies at a cheaper price
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
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  27. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Which has been pretty much undone now.
    Now we do not worry about too big to let fail. We just bail em out.
     
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  28. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    I think it's exactly as I said, their behemoth business model doesn't have a clue what to do with vaping, which has been user-driven from its inception -- you can't respond quickly or well or maybe even at all to user demand when you're used to being the ones who DEFINED the demand, and suddenly everything is upside down -- you don't need "focus groups" just to respond to users, but BT doesn't have a single clue HOW to respond to user demand -- they're used to defining the demand, then moving at glacier speed, satisfied that users will buy their products, no matter what -- and all of a sudden, a whole lot fewer will buy them at all.

    Andria
     
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  29. bobnat

    bobnat VU Donator Gold Contributor Member For 1 Year Moderator

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    That's a good point. They've created a corporate culture that is reactionary not revolutionary. Making a change in their culture might be either too difficult or it'll come too late.
     
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  30. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    Yep. If vaping moved at the speed that BT is used to, we'd all still be using 85% PG and teabags for wicks. :D And having to push the HELL out of batteries that aren't designed for that kind of amp draw, just so some folks could get "cloudZ bro" with their sub-ohm RDAs and mechs, and folks might just now be discovering that VG tastes better and works better for sub-ohm vaping.

    Or maybe cigalikes would still be the only kind of vaping there is.

    Andria
     
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  31. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    I think that IQOS is GREAT for smokers who have already tried and failed with other methods (Snus, Vaping, NRT, etc...) because it more closely mimics a cigarette.

    I doubt we will see any vapers flocking back to something that tastes like an ash tray.

    But with IQOS I also do not see teens very interested so I think this tech is great for THR.

    Also don't forget that PMI has pledged a billion dollars to:

    Derek Yach | Foundation for a Smoke-Free World

    Out of all the tobacco companies it seems that PMI are the most serious about these new nicotine without smoke technologies:

    https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2018/01/2...a-foundation-to-accelerate-an-end-to-smoking/

    Also it seems that people are interested in what you are doing.

    If you are looking for a certain type of person (like age, sex, length of smoking, length of time switched, etc...) you can check member BIO's since most very active members have written about themselves and their vaping journey here:

    http://vapingunderground.com/#community.133
     
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  32. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I would like to see the stats on how many quit smoking using what type of vaping?
    Cigalike? Ego/Clearomizer? MTL low wattage tank, 220W alien and beastie tank?
    I quit using cigalikes and was ok with them.
    Sure better to just have cigalikes vs nothing vape wise for quitting smoking
     
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  33. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    I would like these stats as well as how many ex smokers have just stuck to convenience store products (especially since the explosion of "Juul" the one that seems to work the best) and the stats of vapers who are now using pod systems.

    I know many of us who have been vaping for at least as long as this forum has been here wouldn't have made it without online media helping us.

    I have a feeling that the internet and local vape shops play a huge roll in converting smokers to vapers.

    I think it would be very interesting to learn the percentage of "convenience store only" (or word of mouth) switchers such as older adults who don't use the internet.
     
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  34. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    Vape Shops and the Internet are almost the same as stop smoking services.

    The only difference is you aren't treated like you need to be "cured" from something while taking boring NRT or pills and it's FREE for the government (meaning: the taxpayer).

    Stop Smoking services make people feel uncomfortable
    Who wants to feel like they are a patient who is being treated for disease and/or addiction?
     
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  35. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Hey NOW!
    I am an old phart technodweeb ;)
    And I was on the net before it was the internet and before web browsers.
    Packet Switched Telephone Network. And dedicated data modems.

    Also the vape sales figures are mostly from convenience store sales and such. Most of the rest are not really tracked and very fragmented with a noticeable amount coming straight from China for many of us.
     
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  36. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    I was able to get to my first smoke-free day with my eRoll (rechargeable refillable cigalike no longer sold, for those who don't know it), but after just 3 wks, I was already sick and damn tired of the hassle; .4ml and 65mAh don't get you very far. If I'd had to stick with that, I'd probably have just stuck with or gone back to smoking. I definitely wasn't interested in the disposable cigalikes, for 2 very important reasons: they tasted like t-total shit, and they're even more expensive than cigarettes. So yes, being able to choose my own flavor was a very important consideration for me, crucial in fact, even though it was a tobacco flavor i was after -- thank god, MFS used to sell a Virginia flavor that was quite reminiscent of Virginia Slims.

    But it only took about 5 months and I was DONE with tobacco flavor.

    Andria
     
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  37. Dementedarego

    Dementedarego New Member

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    Thank you 5150sick.

    I actually tried the IQOS but I didn´t like it for two reasons: the tobacco sticks for the iqos are expensive (slightly more that tobacco cigars here in Portugal), and the battery duration for each "smoking" session was very reduced, i was only able to draw 8 or 9 times before having to recharge the pen again. They say it mimics the number of draws a person can do in a regular cigar, but i think it was less than that. I did like the tabaco flavor of the thing. After trying, i concluded that vaping was a better option to me. I like to build my own coils, experience new flavors and vaping is still less expensive.

    Concerning the interest of PMI in tabaco free products, I have no doubt about that, considering that they spent so much money in research. However, in the end its all corporate strategy? Right? And we all know how corporate social responsibility is also used for marketing purposes.

    I´m in the last year of my thesis, and currently doing two main studies based on this forum: a netnography (that is kind of a ethnography adapted to the online environment) and a social network analysis (SNA). The SNA will serve to identify the most influential users in the forum and based on this I will try to interview some of these key members to get better insights about some of the questions that will arise during the netnography. The good thing about this work is that I´m researching a theme that I like.
     
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  38. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    Now that it is 2018 as a smoker you would have some actual GOOD choices that really work at the gas station.

    If the Juul didn't work they wouldn't have taken 70% of the convenience store market in less than a year.

    EDIT: I am speaking of the US market
     
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  39. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    I smoked menthol so it took less time once I understood that all menthol eliquid (in 2012) tasted like a vics inhaler.

    I had 2 of those eroll's too.
    I got mine from totallywicked which was the first online vape store I found.

    My first kit was a dual 650 mah ego kit.

    It was $66.00:facepalm:

    It was about a month later and I had found an ego twist with a kanger T2 for only $25.00:giggle:
     
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  40. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Ahh liked those t2S clearos even if they liked to piss in my pocket :)
    think I still have 2 unopened 5 packs of them.
     
  41. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member Senior Moderator VU Donator Platinum Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee Mod Team Leader

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    I moved on to the EVOD's larger cousin the Kanger MT3s (The EVOD coils fit in both of these and the protank when it came out) then after about 3 more months I went for broke.

    Got myself a nice Vamo V2, Protank V1, 4 batteries, and a 4 bay charger.

    I found Joes blog around the same time.
    I'd imagine it was late 2012 or early 2013.

    It was like sucking vapor through a pin hole.:facepalm:

    But at 8 or 9 watts and 2 ohms it was satisfying with high nic.
     
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  42. AndriaD

    AndriaD If you don't like my opinions, see above. VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years ECF Refugee

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    I find that style of vaping satisfying even at 3mg, it's more like smoking than this huffing business. The only stuff I ever huffed, we can't really talk about on the forum. :D

    But, my son tells me it may be because of the type of cigarettes I smoked, that I'm so firmly attached to tight-draw vaping -- I smoked some strength or other of Virginia Slims for over 30 yrs, and they are VERY tightly packed cigarettes, to get the same quantity of tobacco into such a slender tube. I just got used to long, slow, powerful draws, and no other style of vaping suits me at all. The nicotine is irrelevant at this point (though I AM going back up to 5mg, to try and prevent some of my "tip of the tongue" glitches).

    Andria
     

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