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Way to counteract battery arcing?

Discussion in 'Vaping Related But Doesn't Fit In a Category' started by GeorgeTz6, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. GeorgeTz6

    GeorgeTz6 Member For 2 Years

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    Hey guys, I want to share an idea I have to counteract battery arcing, as my series mech just murders any 21700 that dares touch it in cold blood...
    You know the little spacers you put in between the batteries?
    Why not put one of these in between the battery and switch assembly?
    I cant currently try it because my spacers are of the elastic kind, but if anyone has solid sided spacers, give it a try, let me know if it works out well

    btw i know it wont truly be arcless, nothing is, but the black rings caused by the batterys softer metals should go away as most spacers use copper or silver contacts
     
  2. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    No problems like this with regulated mods. Or unregulated switchfet mods.

    Most mech mods have this issue to some degree.
    A few do not use the battery as a switch contact though.
     
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  3. 5150sick

    5150sick Under Ground Hustler Staff Member VU Administrator Senior Moderator VU Donator Diamond Contributor Mod Team Leader Member For 5 Years

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    What kind of device do you have?
    Is there any type of spring/magnet upgrade that can be done to it?
     
  4. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Another point is that stacked mods will have a worse arcing problem than single cell ones due to the increased voltage.

    And the lower the build the worse the arcing.
     
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  5. GeorgeTz6

    GeorgeTz6 Member For 2 Years

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    Its the mage v2 mech, so there's no such thing available... But the mod itself is not the problem, despite my dramatization, it actually took it quite a while to badly arc-mark the batteries , its just the nature or stacked mechs as I'm sure you know. Is my idea bad or anything? I think it could work as in not leave arc marks in the actual batteries, where they cant realy be cleaned with pastes and stuff
     
  6. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    I tend to strongly disagree.

    The Heavy Duty version of 3M Scotch Brite pads is what works best to remove arcing marks from the bottom of a battery. The firing contact in some of my mechs is a little harder to reach without unassembling the button, and frequent unassembling can be tedious so for those I just use a pencil with eraser most of the time instead of the typical 1000 grit sandpaper treatment, but then, each time before I decide to add another stacked mech to my ever-growing collection I make perfectly sure that the mod in question is very well known to have not more than just mild arcing so I'm rather picky about that... I actually even go as far as to buy multiple expensive solid silver contact upgrades for multiple different mods I have, regardless of whether or not they can be stacked, but going for a stacked (or series) mech that uses a constant contact button also can be a worthy option to consider, as I love my Purge Mods Lady Justice and Side Piece Slim, my two Vapergate (& BJ Box Mods / Broadside Mods) The 99 mods, my four Vaperz Cloud XXX mods, and my Deathwish Modz Evil Twin and Baphomet mods, and actually I also have the GOAT V2 on preorder so no. Just no.
     
  7. GeorgeTz6

    GeorgeTz6 Member For 2 Years

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    The more voltage you have the longer the distance an arc can travel, that's what I meant by nature of series mechs, they leave a bigger window of opportunity for arcing to take place, but as I mentioned above, the mage v2 is actually not bad at all, it took it months to actually "scar" the batteries badly, right now im running 18650's with the adapter and i haven't seen arc marks in months, i just love my 21700's and looking for a way to use them without arcing... What do you thing of the spacer in between the switch and battery method ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2020
  8. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    The distance an arc can travel, and the average time it takes for the arc to─as a result from travel─extinguish after the ignition, are determined by current, not by voltage. The voltage is what causes the arc to ignite depending on the metal type, like, for example, fine silver needs a minimum of 12 volts before arcing can actually occur, and also the voltage causes high spots in the metal to melt regardless of whether an arc occurs. An easy to understand tech explanation of the phenomenon can be found in this article (you can skip the parts about AC applications), here: https://www.pickercomponents.com/pdf/application note/Contact_ARC_Phenomenon.pdf

    I could be wrong, but I vaguely recall Mooch saying the thin magnets that are supposed to go between the stacked batteries for the batteries to make contact with each other are much too thin to ensure they can't shatter as a result from arcing, and you don't want electrically conducting pieces of shattered magnet getting stuck anywhere near the location of your switch (nor want them anywhere else inside your mech, for that matter... as they might shred the battery wrap because they're sharp).
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2020
  9. GeorgeTz6

    GeorgeTz6 Member For 2 Years

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    I read the article and I'm still kind of confused as to why you say that current determines the distance an arc can travel... Cause it doesn't make much sense, even in the article you linked me, in the first half of the first page it says
    "Arc Voltage is that amount of voltage that exists on contacts separated by a small gap that will cause an electric discharge across the gap // And, lastly, Arc Current is that amount of current necessary to just sustain an arc caused by the arc-voltage electric discharge."
    Also what we are referring to as an "arc" is most likely an electric spark because the air between the contacts just ionizes and becomes conductive but doesn't turn into plasma. But for our little convo this doesn't really matter as the physics remain mostly the same.
    Anyways, here's a few quotes from the "Electric arc" , "Spark gap", "Electric spark", "Breakdown voltage" and "Paschen's Law" Articles on wikipedia, (My books are in greek, otherwise i would have taken pictures).

    "The breakdown voltage of an insulator is the minimum voltage that causes a portion of an insulator to become electrically conductive." - Breakdown Voltage

    "When the potential difference between the conductors exceeds the breakdown voltage of the gas within the gap, a spark forms, ionizing the gas and drastically reducing its electrical resistance." - Spark gap // (potential difference = voltage)

    "The rapid transition from a non-conducting to a conductive state produces a brief emission of light and a sharp crack or snapping sound. A spark is created when the applied electric field exceeds the dielectric breakdown strength of the intervening medium. For air, the breakdown strength is about 30 kV/cm at sea level." - Electric spark // Here you can see that the spark/arc ignition isn't that dependent on the "metal type", but instead the intervening medium between them, and if the voltage is sufficient to ionize said medium, (30kV/cm for air), a spark will fly across the contacts.

    Now here is where the confusion stemmed from. An electric ARC has a lot do with current, ex. :
    "An electric arc, or arc discharge, is an electrical breakdown of a gas that produces a prolonged electrical discharge. The current through a normally nonconductive medium such as air produces a plasma; the plasma may produce visible light."
    - Electric arc

    Here there is talk about current, but don't mix them up, sufficient current is needed to turn the air into plasma and maintain that state. That's it... The distance, and for that matter, everything else is determent on the voltage as you can also see here:

    "Paschen's law is an equation that gives the breakdown voltage, that is, the voltage necessary to start a discharge or electric arc, between two electrodes in a gas as a function of pressure and gap length." - Paschen's law

    Here you can also see that you need to have the necessary voltage to start an electric arc.

    Fun Fact: Lightning is an electric spark
     
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  10. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    An arc can not start to travel until after the voltage causes the arc to ignite first. If it doesn't ignite, it means simply there will be no arc... having no arc means there can be no travel.

    Travel also takes time. So when talking about the distance an arc can travel from one location on a contact surface to a different (nearby) location on this same contact surface, to make more distant travel possible the arc needs to be sustained for a long enough period of time, as the travel stops immediately as soon as the arc is no longer sustained, i.e., the arc is extinguished so the travel stops. If, however, you are talking about the distance between the two different contact surfaces, then what you are actually referring to is gap size. But the gap size reaches zero each time when the button is pressed so it is irrelevant nevertheless.
     
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  11. GeorgeTz6

    GeorgeTz6 Member For 2 Years

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    Yeah, we're saying the same thing, I probably misunderstood you the first time... Then again I was bored and typing that out distracted me for a while...
     
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  12. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    Some truth in that.
     
  13. gsmit1

    gsmit1 Platinum Contributor Member For 1 Year

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    I gotta say. I don't get much arcing in my stacks. I have a theory as to why, aside from keeping everything clean, which definitely helps.

    I wonder if it's because I firmly and decisively press the button every time. Quick solid contact and quick release. I build down to like .3 on my stacks too.

    I dunno. I honestly don't get much arcing. A hint here and there.

    The XXX with the comp-s switch seems almost impervious to arcing. I get practically nothing.
     
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  14. The Cromwell

    The Cromwell The Frugal Vapist VU Donator Diamond Contributor Member For 4 Years

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    As an electronics tech I agree that light pressure on a contact will increase arcing damage.
    A fast decisive press and a fast release at the end will minimize arcing. Light holding pressure is also not the best.
    Once again why I like MOSFET switching.

    And stacked mods will be more prone to arc damage Higher voltage means more arc on make and break. Not a big difference but a difference.
     
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  15. casketweaver

    casketweaver Bronze Contributor ECF Refugee

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    When I used my old noisy cricket (yeah I get it, 'its a different type of mod') I didn't notice arc spots after I swapped the flimsy spring with a more firm, silver plated spring. After that, the issues with arcing went away.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
     
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  16. Carambrda

    Carambrda Gold Contributor Member For 2 Years

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    Same here. My first XXX was the brass version back at the time when the bottom section of it still only had the VC Tech switch. The copper version already did have the Comp-S switch, but there was no copper extension piece out yet, so that's why I had decided to go for the brass set instead. I upgraded soon after, by getting the separately sold brass bottom section, which does have the Comp-S switch. The VC Tech switch, when used with the mod in stacked mode, had severe arcing that quickly ruined the silver plating on the firing contact. I was vaping on it at .28 ohms with dual Molicel INR20700A batteries rewrapped by iJoy. The Comp-S made the arcing problem go away... just like you describe, there's just very mild arcing with the Comp-S. I also own two aluminum XXX mods (the purple plasma and the red plasma), both of which are stacked also. Same thing. Almost no arcing there. (Even, if I build down to .26 ohms on them.) But I also got the copper XXX with two copper extension pieces─plus an additional copper cerakoted black extension piece, the XXV (25mm) top section both in copper and in brass, and the Fat Head (30mm) top section in brass. :D
     
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