Some facts about internal charging.

[Murray_B]

Some facts about vaping mods with internal lithium cell chargers.

1. A USB wall adapter or car adapter does not charge the cell it just provides about 5V direct current to the charge controller. It is the charge controller that charges the cell or cells.

2. In most cases it is not necessary to match the USB adapter to the charge controller contained in the device. Most charge controllers used in vaping devices today will automatically reduce their charging current to prevent overloading the USB adapter.

Here are a couple examples of internal lithium cell charge controllers used in real devices:

A standard Kangertech eGo-type EVOD USB charger has a USB cable attached to a dongle that contains a XT2058YSR 8-pin device attached to a threaded charging connector. That part number lists as a "Linear Charge Management chip ic" There does not appear to be an english data sheet for that device but that part number cross-references to TP4056. That is a " 1A Standalone Linear Li-lon Battery Charger with Thermal Regulation in SOP-8 " The TP4056, like most other lithium cell charge controllers, begins charging with a limited current until it reaches the terminal voltage where it switches to constant voltage operation. It continues charging at that voltage until the charging current drops to a small set fraction of the initial current and the charging stops. Stand-alone chargers work in the same way.

See pdf data sheet for the TP4056 at http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Prototyping/TP4056.pdf

A Joyetech eVic VTC mini uses a 10-pin K9FH charge controller. That data sheet does not appear to be available in english but the part cross-references to a TI bq24080 , "1-A, SINGLE-CHIP, LI-ION AND LI-POL CHARGER IC". This controller also charges using the same method as stand-alone chargers.

See pdf data sheet for the BQ24080 /81 at http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq24081.pdf

Most internal chargers use the same charging methods as stand-alone chargers but they are slightly safer to use because there is less risk of shorting the cell contacts during removal or replacement of the cell. Internal chargers also extend the life of the cells by a small amount because they usually charge at a lower current than stand-alone chargers. Stand alone chargers with a fast-charge capability will reduce the cycle-life of cells significantly when the cells are often charged rapidly.

 

[DevAuto]

Thanks for a lot of good information! I still recommend using a separate battery charger so as to reduce wear on the USB port. If the USB port fails on your mod, and you don't have a charger, then you are dead in the water. If you are using a mod with an internal battery then there is no way around it, so I suggest having a spare mod on hand.

 

[Murray_B]

Thanks for a lot of good information! I still recommend using a separate battery charger so as to reduce wear on the USB port. If the USB port fails on your mod, and you don't have a charger, then you are dead in the water. If you are using a mod with an internal battery then there is no way around it, so I suggest having a spare mod on hand.

Well, DevAuto, I guess I have been lucky with my micro-USB connections.

My old flip-phone's USB connector outlasted 3 power cells without having any connecting problems. The phone finally had to be retired after my telephone provider advised me that CDMA phones would no longer be supported.

My new phone uses the same type of connector and it is working fine. My wife's old smart phone and her new one also use micro-USB connections and they have not given her any problems either. Our cameras use micro-USB as well and have also been completely trouble free. As long as the connectors are kept clean and not forced to connect they seem to be pretty reliable.

At the current time I own a total of 9 mods. Four are eGo-type and five are box mods with internal charging via a micro-USB connection. Only one of my five box mods has a removable cell so the other four would be useless if their connector failed. So far that has not happened to any of them but a couple of the older boxes do not run for as long on a charge as they used to.

Have you had a lot of problems with your micro-USB connections?

 

[DevAuto]

Well, DevAuto, I guess I have been lucky with my micro-USB connections.

My old flip-phone's USB connector outlasted 3 power cells without having any connecting problems. The phone finally had to be retired after my telephone provider advised me that CDMA phones would no longer be supported.

My new phone uses the same type of connector and it is working fine. My wife's old smart phone and her new one also use micro-USB connections and they have not given her any problems either. Our cameras use micro-USB as well and have also been completely trouble free. As long as the connectors are kept clean and not forced to connect they seem to be pretty reliable.

At the current time I own a total of 9 mods. Four are eGo-type and five are box mods with internal charging via a micro-USB connection. Only one of my five box mods has a removable cell so the other four would be useless if their connector failed. So far that has not happened to any of them but a couple of the older boxes do not run for as long on a charge as they used to.

Have you had a lot of problems with your micro-USB connections?

Hey Murray, With regards to vaping gear, I have had problems with USB connectors wearing out. In the early days I had problems with the USB connectors on my Innokin iTaste VV and MVP mods, then I got a Cloupor DNA 30 (Hana clone) that had a cheap USB on it as well that eventually failed. As far as other gear, I've also had USB ports fail on digital cameras, one of my cell phones (only one though), 2 portable hard drives (but I transplanted the drives into new housings) and a handful of peripherals (wifi adapters and bluetooth devices). The (micro) USB ports are small, and tend to wear easily with usage.

I'm glad you have not had any issues, but it is definitely a problem for a lot of people. Quality components are key to longevity with USB ports, and in the cheap gear department, this seems to be one of the places manufacturers skimp to keep costs low and profits high. The local vape shop I go to had a lot of iStick (older internal battery versions) USB port failures, so many that they simply stopped carrying them.

Carefully plugging and un-plugging the cable goes a long way towards getting optimal life out of the port, but they will eventually fail with constant usage, it's just normal wear and tear that there is no way around. How long will a USB port last? I have no idea, but my experiences with them is what has led me to primarily using mods with replaceable batteries and external chargers.

Regardless though, your original post is an excellent and informative post to help with understanding USB charging.

 

[Murray_B]

Hey Murray, With regards to vaping gear, I have had problems with USB connectors wearing out. In the early days I had problems with the USB connectors on my Innokin iTaste VV and MVP mods, then I got a Cloupor DNA 30 (Hana clone) that had a cheap USB on it as well that eventually failed. As far as other gear, I've also had USB ports fail on digital cameras, one of my cell phones (only one though), 2 portable hard drives (but I transplanted the drives into new housings) and a handful of peripherals (wifi adapters and bluetooth devices). The (micro) USB ports are small, and tend to wear easily with usage. [...]

Well, DevAuto, I have never had a USB port fail but I did have a cable quit working for no obvious reason. Since every USB powered device I ever bought came with a cable I have a spare or twelve lying around so I just threw the bad one away and used a spare.

My first mod was an iStick and three of my five current box mods are iSticks. There have been no problems with any of them and all of my iSticks have always worked the way they were supposed to. My iStick 30 was in daily use for over 18 months and gave me no problems at all. Just vape all day, charge overnight, fill the next morning, and repeat over and over again. The thing was practically invisible because I never had to worry about it. It was working fine when I moved on to my new mod with temperature control.

My new TC mod is an eVic VTC mini and it the only one I own with a removable power cell. The internal charger does a great job but if the USB connector did fail then I would have to go out and buy a stand-alone charger if I wanted to continue using the mod. Those chargers are readily available at places like hobby shops so I shouldn't need to buy one until it is needed.

Before I bought my eVic VTC mini I looked at an IPV D2. It was a nice looking unit but it has a proprietary round connector for charging which looks very robust but was a deal breaker for me. If I wanted to charge the D2 in our cars I would need to buy two extra cables, one for each car, instead of using the phone charging cables that are already there. If I wanted to travel then I would need to carry a micro-USB cable for my phone and a proprietary USB to IPV cable for the mod as well. Micro-USB charging on everything simplifies things considerably even if micro-USB sockets are more delicate than other types.

There is no good reason for me to buy an stand-alone lithium cell charger until the micro-USB socket on my eVic mini stops working.

 

[Wingsfan0310]

Charging single cell mods via USB isn't usually a bad idea. However charging multi cell mods that are wired in series usually isn't recommended because most of them, no matter what they say don't balance charge. This can be easily seen by putting in two (or more depending on the amount the mod holds) cells that aren't the same charge. Charge them in the mod and they won't come out balanced. You can check by using a voltmeter when the mod is finished charging.

The exception to this is the DNA mods. They have a very good built in balanced charger. They are basically the only series multi cell mods I would charge on-board.

PS DJLSB Vapes now tests this in his reviews. Most mods don't do balanced charging. They just shut off when one of the cells reach ~4.2v

Cheers,
Steve

Edit I'm not saying DNA mods are the only mods that do balanced charging because I don't own every mod on the market so I obviousily haven't tested them. I'm saying I have tested some of my DNA mods and they do in fact do balanced charging, so there dual/triple mods are the only ones I would charge in.

 

[conanthewarrior]

If I mainly used a mod with a single 18650, and didn't have an external charger, I would have no qualms charging via USB with most mods now.

It also is appealing for a beginner, who sees the cost of batteries, a charger Etc adding up very quickly. Like @Wingsfan0310 said though, most multi cell mods either don't balance charge, or don't do a very good job at it.

If I was away for the weekend or on holiday, I would charge a multi cell mod via USB to save packing a charger, but I would preferably use one of my DNA's for this as they do balance charging properly.

 

[AndriaD]

I have a couple mods that have such PITA battery doors, I leave the batteries in and charge via USB (2 iPV Minis). And I always keep a spare USB cable in our truck, in case I'm out sometime and my battery gets low -- which truly saved me, one day on an xmas shopping trip! It's awesome having USb ports in the truck!

Of course, now I have to keep a standard micro-USB *and* a USB-C charge cable in there, because my phone uses USB-C.

Andria

 

[DevAuto]

I have a couple mods that have such PITA battery doors, I leave the batteries in and charge via USB (2 iPV Minis). And I always keep a spare USB cable in our truck, in case I'm out sometime and my battery gets low -- which truly saved me, one day on an xmas shopping trip! It's awesome having USb ports in the truck!

Of course, now I have to keep a standard micro-USB *and* a USB-C charge cable in there, because my phone uses USB-C.

Andria

I feel your pain, I'm in the same situation ...

 

[AndriaD]

I feel your pain, I'm in the same situation ...

Love that USB-C for the phone, though -- 3400mAh battery in that, and it charges FAST.

Andria

 

[Synphul]

Charging single cell mods via USB isn't usually a bad idea. However charging multi cell mods that are wired in series usually isn't recommended because most of them, no matter what they say don't balance charge. This can be easily seen by putting in two (or more depending on the amount the mod holds) cells that aren't the same charge. Charge them in the mod and they won't come out balanced. You can check by using a voltmeter when the mod is finished charging.

The exception to this is the DNA mods. They have a very good built in balanced charger. They are basically the only series multi cell mods I would charge on-board.

PS DJLSB Vapes now tests this in his reviews. Most mods don't do balanced charging. They just shut off when one of the cells reach ~4.2v

Cheers,
Steve

Since you mentioned djlsb vapes, you're right he does often test that. Other mods besides dna handle in mod and balanced charging according to his tests. The istick tc100w does fine (parallel, not series) and the smok alien got a solid thumbs up for balanced charging. There are likely others but those are two off the top of my head I'm aware of. It's not as though DNA mods have some corner on the market no one else has, they're not the exception to the rule. Not unless istick is the exception and smok is the exception and so on.

 

[DevAuto]

Love that USB-C for the phone, though -- 3400mAh battery in that, and it charges FAST.

Andria

Yeah, but mine takes a proprietary "fast charger" otherwise I don't see the fast charging benefit. Still haven't found a suitable car charger either because of the proprietary design....... Sigh

 

[Wingsfan0310]

Since you mentioned djlsb vapes, you're right he does often test that. Other mods besides dna handle in mod and balanced charging according to his tests. The istick tc100w does fine (parallel, not series) and the smok alien got a solid thumbs up for balanced charging. There are likely others but those are two off the top of my head I'm aware of. It's not as though DNA mods have some corner on the market no one else has, they're not the exception to the rule. Not unless istick is the exception and smok is the exception and so on.

I wasn't saying DNA mods are the only ones that do it. I said they are the only ones I would do it in. I think I was watching one of his reviews on the Q class and it didn't balance charge. I figured that if a top of the line SX Mini mod didn't do it, than a lot of mods don't. On top of that if most, if not all mods did balanced charging, why would he start including that in the testing?

Cheers,
Steve

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, but mine takes a proprietary "fast charger" otherwise I don't see the fast charging benefit. Still haven't found a suitable car charger either because of the proprietary design....... Sigh

Yes, the cable that came with my phone isn't particularly fast; I bought one on amazon by "Otium" and it's MUCH faster -- I keep it in the house, and keep the one that came with, in the truck. I can sympathize about the car charger, which is why I'm so delighted about having 2 USB ports in our new truck -- that's a godsend!

Andria

 

[Synphul]

I wasn't saying DNA mods are the only ones that do it. I said they are the only ones I would do it in. I think I was watching one of his reviews on the Q class and it didn't balance charge. I figured that if a top of the line SX Mini mod didn't do it, than a lot of mods don't. On top of that if most, if not all mods did balanced charging, why would he start including that in the testing?

Cheers,
Steve

I didn't mean that most mods do balanced charging, I think it's important to test. It's good to know which ones do and don't, as you pointed out a 'top of the line' sx mini may not (which means it may not be top of the line). Rather than sorting mods by name/brand recognition it's better to sort them by their actual capabilities. I just meant that balanced or safe in mod charging isn't a unicorn that only resides in the dna corrals.

The reason in depth reviews are important (or why I personally prefer and appreciate them) is to skip the typical perceptions based on brand. Oh, sx good, istick bad, dna good, smok bad or whatever the case may be. Less expensive brands can have winners and high end brands can have losers. I'd rather know which devices 'are' good vs which ones 'should' be good. Not saying the sx is 'bad' but if it's lacking features/capabilities then it may not be all that and a bag of chips. The difference between a good mod and great mod and it's not to imply it's like the sig with failed tc and underperforming (compared to specs) power output.

 

[Synphul]

sorry, double post (yay slow internet lol)

 

[Murray_B]

PS DJLSB Vapes now tests this in his reviews. Most mods don't do balanced charging. They just shut off when one of the cells reach ~4.2v

Thanks for the response, Steve. One thing that is not clear from your post is how you have come to believe that DJLSB Vapes is authoritative. It looks to be some youngster(s) posting pseudo-technical nonsense to attract viewers. Their review of the Sigelei 213 was so bad it was actually funny.

The reviewer set the temperature to 400F and then gets the cotton to discolour by pulsing the fire button repeatedly. Cotton starts to decompose at abut 392F so it should be changing colour at 400F. What the reviewer does not mention is how well the temperature control works with normal non-pulsed operation.

The video also claimed that the mod would not be able to accept a firmware update because the reviewer could not find a continuous connection from the data pin from the USB connector to the main processor. That was clearly true from the video but it is often difficult to follow tracks by eye with some multi-layer boards. That type of board has been in widespread use since at least the early '80s. Even if a data connection were absent that does not mean the information was not sent over a different pin. The best way to test if the firmware can be updated is to try and update it and see if the revision number changes. If the firmware does actually update then it does not matter if the reviewer understands how it was done.

The DJLSB Vapes site is so bad that I would not use information from it to make any purchasing decisions whatsoever.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Thanks for the response, Steve. One thing that is not clear from your post is how you have come to believe that DJLSB Vapes is authoritative. It looks to be some youngster(s) posting pseudo-technical nonsense to attract viewers. Their review of the Sigelei 213 was so bad it was actually funny.

The reviewer set the temperature to 400F and then gets the cotton to discolour by pulsing the fire button repeatedly. Cotton starts to decompose at abut 392F so it should be changing colour at 400F. What the reviewer does not mention is how well the temperature control works with normal non-pulsed operation.

The video also claimed that the mod would not be able to accept a firmware update because the reviewer could not find a continuous connection from the data pin from the USB connector to the main processor. That was clearly true from the video but it is often difficult to follow tracks by eye with some multi-layer boards. That type of board has been in widespread use since at least the early '80s. Even if a data connection were absent that does not mean the information was not sent over a different pin. The best way to test if the firmware can be updated is to try and update it and see if the revision number changes. If the firmware does actually update then it does not matter if the reviewer understands how it was done.

The DJLSB Vapes site is so bad that I would not use information from it to make any purchasing decisions whatsoever.

Well, he is better than a lot of other reviewers out there, and we know that the Sigelei 213 is a terrible mod that can not output anywhere near its stated power.

Various people state how bad the Sigelei 213 is at temperature control, surely they can't all be wrong? Not disagreeing with your statement about the temperature cotton will degrade, or even combust though by any means.
I did rate Sigelei very highly at one point, but when they switched to their own boards from personal experience I will not purchase a Sigelei again.

I would say he is one of the better reviewers out there. I don't often base my purchases off of others opinions though, and like to try things myself, but in the case of Sigelei I have to agree with him.

This isn't a dig at you by any means, just my feelings in regards to DJslbvapes.

 

[Murray_B]

Well, he is better than a lot of other reviewers out there, [...]

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, Conanthewarrior, but that Sigelei 213 review is 'fake' and so are many of the others. If you watch the review carefully it is clear that the reviewer is pulsing the power button to get the mod to overheat. Most TC mods will get very hot under those conditions but overheating is not a big problem when the devices are used normally. Every other reviewer that pulsed the power button of a TC mod to cause it to overheat is a lying weasel too. It is time for all the fake reviewing to stop.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, Conanthewarrior, but that Sigelei 213 review is 'fake' and so are many of the others. If you watch the review carefully it is clear that the reviewer is pulsing the power button to get the mod to overheat. Most TC mods will get very hot under those conditions but overheating is not a big problem when the devices are used normally. Every other reviewer that pulsed the power button of a TC mod to cause it to overheat is a lying weasel too. It is time for all the fake reviewing to stop.

I will take a look at the video, I haven't watched any reviews myself in a while, but classed him as one of the better reviewers in regards to the mods I do have that I have seen his reviews of that have been accurate.

EDIT: In my quick test, I pulsed a lot faster than Daniel did, as this was before I watched the video. I was pressing fast, as I assumed this is what was meant by him pulsing the button.
Only a very quick test, but I picked up an IPV8 and pulsed the button, the temperature control still worked, as it did on a Efusion DNA200, with the cotton going from saturated to dry. I haven't tested other mods in this fashion, and realise it is not how a mod is used normally, but with the rise in resistance that is detected from the baseline reading by the mod it shouldn't matter if you pulsed it or not, TC should work correctly.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Sorry, I really don't see what you mean. He is firing in 3 second bursts, which I would take as an acceptable length of inhale, and is just demonstrating the TC by firing again and again. I skipped to a part of the TC as I did not want to watch the full review, just what you spoke of.

When TC works properly, you can do this with no issue. Again, this is no means anything at you, I just do not see what you do.

 

[Angrygod50]

Science bad, fake news good Welcome to delusional America Conan, don't come down to our level.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Science bad, fake news good Welcome to delusional America Conan, don't come down to our level.

Don't think its just you, over here in the UK can be just as bad. Most people would rather speak about 'E-cigs' exploding in the newspapers, rather than the fact it was someone carrying batteries loose in their pocket with keys, and no mod was involved at all lol.

 

[AndriaD]

Don't think its just you, over here in the UK can be just as bad. Most people would rather speak about 'E-cigs' exploding in the newspapers, rather than the fact it was someone carrying batteries loose in their pocket with keys, and no mod was involved at all lol.

Rush said it best: "blame is easier to give than to receive." Nobody wants to admit that they're an idiot, even when it's patently obvious. Much easier to blame it on the fashionable scapegoat.

Andria

 

[Murray_B]

I will take a look at the video, [...]

Thanks for responding to my post, Conanthewarrior. In my previous post I wrote "most TC mods" when I meant to write "most TC mods at the time" or "many early TC mods".

After the DJLsb Vapes review of the Sigelei 213 it did not take long for other sponsored and sensationalist reviewers to jump on the Sigelei bashing bandwagon and "confirm" the supposed overheating. [No one would pulse a mod in actual use like those "reviewers" did in those reviews so overheating under those circumstances is irrelevant.] TC mod manufacturers responded to the widespread mistaken beliefs caused by the propaganda by changing their designs. Today most mods will not overheat if their power button is pulsed a half-dozen or more times over ten seconds as those testers did with the Sigelei mod in their reviews. Of course it is the consumer that must pay for fixing these "problems" even when the fault is largely imaginary.

I have never owned a Sigelei product and I am not planning to buy any in the near future. If I was thinking about buying one, however, I would not want to obtain false and misleading information from a biased review. The constant lying by reviewers can only hurt vaping in the long run and we would all be better off if they stopped doing it.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Thanks for responding to my post, Conanthewarrior. In my previous post I wrote "most TC mods" when I meant to write "most TC mods at the time" or "many early TC mods"... it.

No problem, I enjoy discussion and am glad you realise I mean nothing against you when I speak of the Sigelei 213.

I agree there was a lot of havoc involved around the Sigelei 213 review, and things were handled badly on both sides. I am not saying Daniel is beyond doing things that I do not think are the nicest for companies as I remember something with a company I spoke to myself. I won't go into details but it wasn't exactly fair, and I actually had issues with this companies mods myself so have no reason to stick up for them.

I do agree it is important to keep reviews non biased though. I just am unsure with the Sigelei 213, as I just tried my Xcube 2 out quickly in the same fashion, by firing, then firing again immediately until the cotton was dry, and sure enough I did get the 'temp protected' message immediately after firing once the cotton was drying and the temp was being reached.
This is a mod I do not think has good SS temp control by far, you can feel it fluctuating a lot during use, but is older than the Sigelei 213 and the temp protection does work when pulsed.

I realise at first 'temperature control' was actually more of a temperature limiting function, preventing the coil from going above a set temperature. rather than a perfect feature that kept you vaping at this temperature, but it did soon come to mean what it says rather quickly.

Like you, I don't own the Sigelei 213- I stopped buying Sigelei's soon after they switched from Yihi boards to their own. I remember getting the Sigelei 75 and being very disappointed after my first 3 mods from them being solid performers. My ex partner also purchased a Sigelei mini book, that broke within a week, after that I felt they had really fell from where they once was.

 

[AndriaD]

I have never owned a Sigelei product and I am not planning to buy any in the near future. If I was thinking about buying one, however, I would not want to obtain false and misleading information from a biased review. The constant lying by reviewers can only hurt vaping in the long run and we would all be better off if they stopped doing it.

Very true. I've heard bad things about *some* Sigelei models, but the 2 models I own have been flawless, absolutely trouble-free -- my very first "real" mod, a Sigelei Zmax flat-top, and now, my Sigelei MiniBooks -- got 2 of each of those, I like them so well, I bought another. I think the best thing to do with any Sigelei mod is to hang back and watch the reviews and comments about them; you'll see some bitching and complaining about some; the ones you don't hear about, or hear only good things, those are terrific mods. Sigelei makes some great mods, but they don't hit it just right with every one they make.

Andria

 

[SirRichardRear]

I'm not sure what this turned into exactly lol but i did want to chime in on a few points

Well i agree many reviewers "lie" i wouldn't think DJL is one of them. he has nothing to gain from trashing a product. the reviewers that "lie" are really just hyping up products. They aren't even really reviewers. They are more of advertisers lately. For many it's their line of work. they make their living off of it and get a lot of free stuff. personally I don't see how it's possible to review stuff in a day or 2. Getting something free, throwing out a review 2 days later, and putting it aside to never use again isn't a good review.

as far as testing goes everyone has their own procedure and interpretation of the data. the idea that any mod puts out dad on accurate in any mode at all times is absurd. we should all know by now that they don't. The idea of testing is to see if the mod works "good enough" or if it's just flat out a dud. we all vape different as well. some people may like to vape at 300 watts with .5 second puffs. others (like myself) may like to take nice 3-4 second hits at 70-120 watts, some may like to take long 5 second puffs on a MTL tank at 8 watts. we are all different and have different needs. if 20 people tested the same device it would be 20 different results, but they should all be pretty close to each other.

Personally i think DJL does a great job. I don't see anyone doing it better.

a big thing is user friendly. a car can put out 300HP sure and go 200MPG but in reality, how many people will be using it to it's full potential? For me I like to compare and contrast chips to find out how they stack up to each other. Some people have a bunch of the same chip and become a "fanboy" of it and dismiss all others which never made sense to me. I have chips from evolv, hohmtech, ijoy, smok, sigelei, yihi, smoant, tesla, wismec, joetech, eleaf, dovpo, hugo, liasmo, geekvape, movkin which covers a large majority of the companies (not all obviously but a good amount) comparing and contrasting gives a good idea of whats acceptable and whats not. not every mod hits their mark , but some are in an acceptable limit IMO. many companies bloat their numbers to win a "watt war" for sales. power sells, price sells. doesn't make them good products.

 

[Murray_B]

[...] Like you, I don't own the Sigelei 213- I stopped buying Sigelei's soon after they switched from Yihi boards to their own [...].

Sorry for not making myself more clear the first time, Conanthewarrior, but I have never owned any Sigelei brand products of any kind. My main reason for switching from smoking to vaping was ETR (Excessive Tax Reduction). On my modest pension I just couldn't afford to continue to pay high and ever increasing tobacco taxes so most Sigelei stuff is well out of my price range.

When I watch a review I want to know how the device will work in actual use. It does not matter if the mod overheats when operated in zero gravity, a total vacuum, or when the power button is pulsed repeatedly since I will never use it under those conditions. That is what all the "chicken little" reviewers did with the Sigelei 213 and I cannot find a single review that tested how the thing worked during normal use. That is kind of weird because it is the only kind of testing that matters.

Our oven has a Roberstshaw thermostat and it causes the oven temperature to fluctuate too. The thermal capacity of the food, though, keeps it at a fairly constant temperature despite the thermal cycling. The heat capacity of the juice and atomizer assembly in a vaping tank should do about the same thing. There was no flicker with the old A.C.-powered incandescent light bulbs for about the same reason.

 

[Mattp169]

back to USB ports and internal charging

I have had usb ports on mods break on phones and other digital devices as well. Many times it comes down to care. I AM A CLUTZ I drop my stuff all the time. But so do many other people and accidents happen. There are plenty of people who never break or have a usb port fail there are just as many who do. So it is a legitimate thing to mention IMHO.

Another concern is what happens when the charge controller goes bad. These are all cheap electronics for the most part, they do have fail rates. Life also happens and that can cause issues to the charge controller as well. Usually this happens at the worst possible time. So if something does happen it can cause damage to not only the charge controller, but also the battery and the entire mod if the battery vents. Then you have much more expense to replace things
And sure we can say never charge unattended...but come on life happens. Who sits next to their charging batteries for the hours it takes to fully charge?


I have no issue with people using internal charging, I have done it form time to time, especially on my d2 in the car.
And I feel this post helps dispel a myth that internal charging is always bad. It isn't
but there is so good reason to charge externally including my previously mentioned concern of something going wrong while charging
Charging externally will allow you to keep extra batteries charged and then you can easily pop in fully charged batteries before leaving. It allows you to multiple sets of batteries ready to go to get you through a day when you will not be able to charge internally. It also allows you to keep vaping when you vape a battery dead and the charging does not keep up with your internal charger. Others may chime in as well with other reasons to do it as well.

My point is there is nothing wrong most of the time, given a good charge controller) charging internally, but there are benefits to having external chargers

 

[conanthewarrior]

Very true. I've heard bad things about *some* Sigelei models, but the 2 models I own have been flawless, absolutely trouble-free -- my very first "real" mod, a Sigelei Zmax flat-top, and now, my Sigelei MiniBooks -- got 2 of each of those, I like them so well, I bought another. I think the best thing to do with any Sigelei mod is to hang back and watch the reviews and comments about them; you'll see some bitching and complaining about some; the ones you don't hear about, or hear only good things, those are terrific mods. Sigelei makes some great mods, but they don't hit it just right with every one they make.

Andria

I am glad your Mini books work well, I really am, as when I bought one for my Ex it was very nice when it worked.

I guess I may have just been unlucky regarding Sigelei and their newer products, which has put me off. My older Sigelei's still get used in rotation though, and are rock solid mods. Sturdy, well built, and I am sure they will work for years to come.

@Murray_B , that is a perfectly acceptable reason to switching to vaping, and you also get the health benefits from not smoking traditional tobacco.
What mod do you use at the moment if you don't mind me asking?

It is true what you are saying though, in that you just want to know if a mod works well in general vaping conditions, and not in ways that would never really be used.

I know it is a different subject, light bulbs, but I did find that some of the older, energy saving bulbs gave me headaches and I had to use regular incandescent light bulbs.

And @SirRichardRear , I agree that I do not think he has any reason to trash the majority of products out there, especially from manufacturers such as Sigelei, and agree he does do a great job at testing products.
I can also see the OP's point of view though in that the quick test shown is not how anyone actually vapes- but the mods I have tried so far in the collection do work in TC when I quickly tested them in this fashion.

 

[SirRichardRear]

Sorry for not making myself more clear the first time, Conanthewarrior, but I have never owned any Sigelei brand products of any kind. My main reason for switching from smoking to vaping was ETR (Excessive Tax Reduction). On my modest pension I just couldn't afford to continue to pay high and ever increasing tobacco taxes so most Sigelei stuff is well out of my price range.

When I watch a review I want to know how the device will work in actual use. It does not matter if the mod overheats when operated in zero gravity, a total vacuum, or when the power button is pulsed repeatedly since I will never use it under those conditions. That is what all the "chicken little" reviewers did with the Sigelei 213 and I cannot find a single review that tested how the thing worked during normal use. That is kind of weird because it is the only kind of testing that matters.

Our oven has a Roberstshaw thermostat and it causes the oven temperature to fluctuate too. The thermal capacity of the food, though, keeps it at a fairly constant temperature despite the thermal cycling. The heat capacity of the juice and atomizer assembly in a vaping tank should do about the same thing. There was no flicker with the old A.C.-powered incandescent light bulbs for about the same reason.

To be fair, I agree with what u said that's why I test mods under normal circumstances including the fuchai 213 plus.

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[AndriaD]

Charging externally will allow you to keep extra batteries charged and then you can easily pop in fully charged batteries before leaving. It allows you to multiple sets of batteries ready to go to get you through a day when you will not be able to charge internally. It also allows you to keep vaping when you vape a battery dead and the charging does not keep up with your internal charger. Others may chime in as well with other reasons to do it as well.

My point is there is nothing wrong most of the time, given a good charge controller) charging internally, but there are benefits to having external chargers

This is why I like having a mix of mods with both integrated and external batteries, and why I like even the mods that use external batteries to also have a USB port -- I'm generally very conscientious about keeping my mods and batteries charged and ready, but y'know, shit happens, humans forget, and it was nice, back when we were xmas shopping, not to have to run straight home when I realized I hadn't changed out the battery in my mod that morning -- I just plugged it in, and kept vaping.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I am glad your Mini books work well, I really am, as when I bought one for my Ex it was very nice when it worked.

I guess I may have just been unlucky regarding Sigelei and their newer products, which has put me off. My older Sigelei's still get used in rotation though, and are rock solid mods. Sturdy, well built, and I am sure they will work for years to come.

Yes, I think you probably got a lemon, and even great mods sometimes throw those. But most comments I've read about MiniBooks indicate total satisfaction. Both of mine are now about 6-7 months old, and they're my favorites, so they get used a LOT -- and still work just as well as the day I got them.

I wonder if perhaps my always keeping to a very small fraction of the wattage they're capable of, may be why they've been so outstanding. I always vape somewhere between 9.2w (when a wick is fresh and being broken in) and 10w, though most usually about 9.6-9.8w. They're supposedly "TC" mods, but will only do nickel or titanium, and I don't like either, so I stick strictly to wattage mode.

The only problem I've had was "user ignorance" -- the battery fits so tightly in it, at first I had a hard time, and constantly nicked the wrappers on the batteries I used -- then I read a tip that said it was much easier to get a battery into them before you put the atty on, or to loosen the atty before trying to put in a battery -- works like a charm, batteries go in smooth as silk.

Andria

 

[Murray_B]

[...] I think the best thing to do with any Sigelei mod is to hang back and watch the reviews and comments about them [...]

Most of the reviews of the Sigelei 213 appear to have been done by complete idiots. For example, there are many methods of measuring power output. Two of the most common types are peak power and average power. Marketing departments tend to prefer peak power because the numbers are bigger but it is the average power that corresponds to how much a coil heats up or how loud a speaker sounds.

If the signal is sinusoidal then the average power equals the peak power divided by the square root of two. 213 W peak works out to 150 watts average which is about what the reviewers measured for the Sigelei 213. Sigelei probably did not lie but may have specified peak watts for marketing reasons. Most reviewing "experts" did not appear to know the difference between the two wattage measures. It is better to throw dice than use any of the reviews by these quasi-technical ding-dongs before making purchasing decisions.

What mod do you use at the moment if you don't mind me asking?

On any given day I have several mods available:

The one I use the most is an eVic VTC mini with Cubis tank. It is also my largest rig by far.

When I am around the house I also carry an iStick mini 20 with Nautilus mini tank in my pocket..

When in the field I carry a Vaporesso Target mini with Cubis pro tank in a case on my belt.

I also carry a Vision Spinner 400 and Kanger Toptank EVOD in a former cigarette case in my pocket.

At home there is also an iStick 30 with Aspire K-1 tank on a shelf just in case all the other mods fail at the same time. So far that has not happened but Murphy's law can manifest itself without warning at any time.

What is your favorite mod?

To be fair, I agree with what u said that's why I test mods under normal circumstances including the fuchai 213 plus.

That is good but it is still isn't clear from your review if the "213" in the name refers to peak watts.

 

[AndriaD]

Most of the reviews of the Sigelei 213 appear to have been done by complete idiots.
.
.
.
Most reviewing "experts" did not appear to know the difference between the two wattage measures. It is better to throw dice than use any of the reviews by these quasi-technical ding-dongs before making purchasing decisions.

I completely agree -- I really didn't understand any of what came between those lines, but I'd be the first to admit that! I'm kind of a computer geek, but definitely not an electronics or math geek. I've always thought it very dangerous to spout off something you know little or nothing about, because sure as hell, there's gonna be someone around who actually does know a thing or two on the subject, and now that person knows for sure you're an idiot.

Just as I get annoyed in historical novels which are more novel than actually historical -- it becomes clear that not only did that writer sleep in history class, he or she also didn't do a single bit of fact checking before publishing their idiotic drivel.

Andria

 

[SirRichardRear]

Most of the reviews of the Sigelei 213 appear to have been done by complete idiots. For example, there are many methods of measuring power output. Two of the most common types are peak power and average power. Marketing departments tend to prefer peak power because the numbers are bigger but it is the average power that corresponds to how much a coil heats up or how loud a speaker sounds.

If the signal is sinusoidal then the average power equals the peak power divided by the square root of two. 213 W peak works out to 150 watts average which is about what the reviewers measured for the Sigelei 213. Sigelei probably did not lie but may have specified peak watts for marketing reasons. Most reviewing "experts" did not appear to know the difference between the two wattage measures. It is better to throw dice than use any of the reviews by these quasi-technical ding-dongs before making purchasing decisions.



On any given day I have several mods available:

The one I use the most is an eVic VTC mini with Cubis tank. It is also my largest rig by far.

When I am around the house I also carry an iStick mini 20 with Nautilus mini tank in my pocket..

When in the field I carry a Vaporesso Target mini with Cubis pro tank in a case on my belt.

I also carry a Vision Spinner 400 and Kanger Toptank EVOD in a former cigarette case in my pocket.

At home there is also an iStick 30 with Aspire K-1 tank on a shelf just in case all the other mods fail at the same time. So far that has not happened but Murphy's law can manifest itself without warning at any time.

What is your favorite mod?


That is good but it is still isn't clear from your review if the "213" in the name refers to peak watts.

It's not peak watts because peak is meaningless. It's average. I can care less what the chip can do for the 1st 1/10 of a second when I vape in 3 second puffs give or take. If every manufacturer went by peak the numbers would be higher. I rarely even show peak in my vids cause it's meaningless. If I went by peak every single mod I've tested would have way outperformed their given specs

Every other industry rates by actual output. Take generators. A 100kw generator puts out 100kw the whole time it needs to. Not for 1 second then drops to 50kw for hours.


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[gakudzu]

Most of the reviews of the Sigelei 213 appear to have been done by complete idiots. For example, there are many methods of measuring power output. Two of the most common types are peak power and average power. Marketing departments tend to prefer peak power because the numbers are bigger but it is the average power that corresponds to how much a coil heats up or how loud a speaker sounds.

If the signal is sinusoidal then the average power equals the peak power divided by the square root of two. 213 W peak works out to 150 watts average which is about what the reviewers measured for the Sigelei 213. Sigelei probably did not lie but may have specified peak watts for marketing reasons. Most reviewing "experts" did not appear to know the difference between the two wattage measures. It is better to throw dice than use any of the reviews by these quasi-technical ding-dongs before making purchasing decisions.



On any given day I have several mods available:

The one I use the most is an eVic VTC mini with Cubis tank. It is also my largest rig by far.

When I am around the house I also carry an iStick mini 20 with Nautilus mini tank in my pocket..

When in the field I carry a Vaporesso Target mini with Cubis pro tank in a case on my belt.

I also carry a Vision Spinner 400 and Kanger Toptank EVOD in a former cigarette case in my pocket.

At home there is also an iStick 30 with Aspire K-1 tank on a shelf just in case all the other mods fail at the same time. So far that has not happened but Murphy's law can manifest itself without warning at any time.

What is your favorite mod?


That is good but it is still isn't clear from your review if the "213" in the name refers to peak watts.

If you're the only mod maker rating your mod @peak wattage, then you're being deceptive. They did the same thing with the original 213, and caught shit for it. So they have spat in the faces of vapors by continuing their deceptive marketing. Fuck 'em.

 

[conanthewarrior]

@Murray_B , you have some nice mods there you are using . The Evic VTC mini is a great little mod, as are the others you use too.

It is hard to pick a favourite from my collection to be honest, I do like them all, even the not so good ones. If I had to pick, I really do like the Efusion DNA200, and also I have a soft spot for the Istick Pico, very compact and works very well for its price.
I am not a high wattage vaper by todays standards, most of the time I am happy well under 40W with duals, and around 20-25W with a single coil.

I do understand where you are coming from in regards to the Peak power output, it is just that every other manufacturer relies on actual power output and not the peak power output.
I realise a lot of other electronics can be rated this way a lot of the time, such as home theatre systems. A lot of the home theatre 'in a box' systems go by this, or outright lie about their RMS output. This doesn't affect most people though and most are more than happy with one.

@SirRichardRear and @gakudzu , I agree if they are the only mod maker doing this, it is wrong. For the majority of us, 150W is plenty of power, more than enough in fact, but there are those that do want to run their mods higher than this. On just 2 18650's it is asking a lot, but you only have to look at some mech users to see how far people are willing to push batteries.

And @AndriaD , it could well be I have been unlucky and did get a Lemon there, and a few other mods that were not so good which has led to my feelings.
I won't lie, I do not know if using the mod well under its rating will prolong its life, but I expect not constantly running it at its maximum power level could extend its life.

 

[AndriaD]

Y'know, this thread is really refreshing -- actual *discussion* even if we may differ a bit in our opinions on various things, no name calling, mud slinging, or other adolescent behavior. I like it!

Andria

 

[gakudzu]

Y'know, this thread is really refreshing -- actual *discussion* even if we may differ a bit in our opinions on various things, no name calling, mud slinging, or other adolescent behavior. I like it!

Andria

Other than "idiots" and "quasi-technical ding-dongs".

I'm still waiting for @Murray_B's list of his approved reviewers.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Y'know, this thread is really refreshing -- actual *discussion* even if we may differ a bit in our opinions on various things, no name calling, mud slinging, or other adolescent behavior. I like it!

Andria

I would love it if most threads ended up like this, with actual discussion instead of people becoming angry because others don't see things in exactly the same way they do.
I do enjoy speaking to others who have different views to me, after all we all have some different opinions, if not we wouldn't be human .
The problems start though when someone has the view what they believe is 100% never to be challenged, and anyone that does gets put down and abused.

I would much rather hear why someone likes X item, or even believes in something, as it can make me look at my own opinions and challenge myself! And sometimes, it makes me realise what I did believe strongly, may not be as correct as I thought it was.

Other than "idiots" and "quasi-technical ding-dongs".

I'm still waiting for @Murray_B's list of his approved reviewers.

I really don't think @Murray_B meant anything bad, but I do think that Daniel is one of the better reviewers out there for sure.
He gives very in depth reviews, and it might be more than most of us need, but there aren't many others that use that sort of equipment to give such factual reviews.

I do think everyone probably has their own favourite reviewers. Honestly, if I hear a lot of bad things about a mod, I will be apprehensive when I receive it.
Once I have though, I can make my own opinion, and sometimes it is a lot different to even the 'best' reviewers out there. The best reviewer is yourself, if you like the way a mod works, it doesn't matter what others think as long as it works well for you

 

[Mattp169]

Y'know, this thread is really refreshing -- actual *discussion* even if we may differ a bit in our opinions on various things, no name calling, mud slinging, or other adolescent behavior. I like it!

Andria

we just got lucky this thread never grabbed the attention of the wrong people

 

[SirRichardRear]

I would love it if most threads ended up like this, with actual discussion instead of people becoming angry because others don't see things in exactly the same way they do.
I do enjoy speaking to others who have different views to me, after all we all have some different opinions, if not we wouldn't be human .
The problems start though when someone has the view what they believe is 100% never to be challenged, and anyone that does gets put down and abused.

I would much rather hear why someone likes X item, or even believes in something, as it can make me look at my own opinions and challenge myself! And sometimes, it makes me realise what I did believe strongly, may not be as correct as I thought it was.



I really don't think @Murray_B meant anything bad, but I do think that Daniel is one of the better reviewers out there for sure.
He gives very in depth reviews, and it might be more than most of us need, but there aren't many others that use that sort of equipment to give such factual reviews.

I do think everyone probably has their own favourite reviewers. Honestly, if I hear a lot of bad things about a mod, I will be apprehensive when I receive it.
Once I have though, I can make my own opinion, and sometimes it is a lot different to even the 'best' reviewers out there. The best reviewer is yourself, if you like the way a mod works, it doesn't matter what others think as long as it works well for you

Yup. I'm a firm believer in if u like it, it works, and keeps you off cigs then it's a non issue. Even if I can't perosnally give something a good recommendation doesn't mean someone else can't enjoy the item

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[SirRichardRear]

we just got lucky this thread never grabbed the attention of the wrong people

That's very true as well. Some people aren't able to have a discussion with people with different views

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[AndriaD]

Other than "idiots" and "quasi-technical ding-dongs".

I'm still waiting for @Murray_B's list of his approved reviewers.

Hell, I don't care if someone calls some strangers not present names -- they very well might be idiots and/or quasi-technical ding-dongs -- but not calling EACH OTHER names, even if we disagree, that's awesome!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I would love it if most threads ended up like this, with actual discussion instead of people becoming angry because others don't see things in exactly the same way they do.
I do enjoy speaking to others who have different views to me, after all we all have some different opinions, if not we wouldn't be human .
The problems start though when someone has the view what they believe is 100% never to be challenged, and anyone that does gets put down and abused.

I would much rather hear why someone likes X item, or even believes in something, as it can make me look at my own opinions and challenge myself! And sometimes, it makes me realise what I did believe strongly, may not be as correct as I thought it was.

Hear hear, it's a fine thing indeed to have our sacred cows challenged sometimes, to make us really think about what exactly makes them so damn sacred! I'm one of those vapers who is in a VERY small minority, high PG and low wattage, and it really does piss me off to hear someone spouting that vaping high-VG or high-wattage is THE ONLY way to vape -- it's assuredly not, and not just for the economical reasons, but because some of us old smokers have damaged our lungs so badly, we simply can't go there... and survive it.

I do think everyone probably has their own favourite reviewers. Honestly, if I hear a lot of bad things about a mod, I will be apprehensive when I receive it.
Once I have though, I can make my own opinion, and sometimes it is a lot different to even the 'best' reviewers out there. The best reviewer is yourself, if you like the way a mod works, it doesn't matter what others think as long as it works well for you

I still like Busardo a lot, even though: a) I really don't watch reviews any longer, since I'm not really in the market to buy anything; b) he goes into such technical depth sometimes, I can't make heads nor tails of anything he's talking about, and c) I don't agree with him about everything -- the rattly buttons on the vv3 never bothered me one iota. But I have a warm place in my heart for him, because his videos helped me a great deal when I first started, and he does usually know what he's talking about.

Andria

 

[Murray_B]

I completely agree -- I really didn't understand any of what came between those lines [...]

It is not really all that complicated, AndriaD. First thing a real electronics technician would have to do when testing a mod is use a power supply that can provide more than enough power for the device. It would need to be external otherwise the analysis is also testing the power cells used. A laboratory bench power supply would be good but something that could output something like 35 Amps at 7.2 volts would be fairly rare and expensive. The reviewers could have used some cell holders for a half dozen lithium cells and built a pack that could deliver the necessary power but no reviewer bothered to do that. The failure to use an adequate power supply to test the device makes them idiots unworthy of testing anything electrical or electronic.

Then there is the problem with the kind of watts Sigelei is using. Back in the 1970s Sears and other companies were specifying instantanious peak watts for audio amplifiers instead of continuous average watts. Peak watts exaggerate the useful output power but it has been a common marketing practice to quote the inflated power ratings for over fifty years. If the reviewer had any real electronics knowledge they would have already known about "marketing watts" because it has never been a secret. it would have been fine if the reviewer mentioned the average watts were lower but to accuse Sigelei of lying when they quote common marketing watts is just crazy. Any technical reviewer that does not know about things that have been common practice in the electronics industry for over half a century should not be reviewing anything.

There is an old saying that "a little learning is a dangerous thing'. Most of these technical reviewers have the least learning about electronics I have ever seen and should stop doing fake technical reviews.

From the pictures it looks like that Sigelei 213 was a nice clean design and the only mod I have seen that used real carbon fibre composite material in the casing instead of a printed sticker. Too bad the sponsored reviewers killed the sales of that mod.

Even if the the actual power of a Sigelei 213 is closer to 150 watts it has never been made clear if the temperature control mode works okay if the power button is used normally and not pulsed. That is the main thing I would want to know about a TC mod before I bought it.

[...]If I had to pick, I really do like the Efusion DNA200, and also I have a soft spot for the Istick Pico, very compact and works very well for its price.[...]

The Evolv DNA 200 specifications are impressive, conanthewarrior, but all mods that use the board are out of my price range. The iSticks are in my price range and I have three different models. An iStick mini was my first mod and all three of mine have given good service and have been completely trouble free.

[...] I do understand where you are coming from in regards to the Peak power output, it is just that every other manufacturer relies on actual power output and not the peak power output.[...]

It would be hard for any mod that uses just two 18650 cells to deliver 213 watts. That would require a current draw of about 30 A while maintaining 7.2 V nominal (assuming the DC-DC converter is 100% efficient). Few real cells can deliver 30+ A without having their voltage output sag considerably. Is there any mod powered by only two standard high-drain 18650 cells that can actually deliver more than 200 watts? It is important to compare like with like.

 

[conanthewarrior]

@Murray_B , I can understand the Evolv boards being out of your price range, I found I enjoyed collecting these devices which is mainly why I own them. If it was purely to swap from tobacco, I would also stick with something in a lower price range, and the Isticks are great for what they are.
The Pico is tiny, and performs really well.

You are correct that the majority of cells will sag considerably at such a high wattage, and as you mention no convertor is 100% efficient. And as voltage drops, the amp load increases to compensate, and so on, until the cutoff is reached and the batteries can no longer provide what is needed.
The SMOK Alien is one dual 18650 device that does deliver over 200W on dual 18650's.
I never vape at such high levels though, and think 200+ Watts on dual 18560's is pushing things safety wise, and also very optimistic.
It reminds me of the loudness wars, we seem to be seeing a wattage war at the moment, with each company trying to offer more than the other.

For a dual 18650 mod, I think 150W is more than enough for nearly all vapers, apart from the most demanding users. I think then a triple 18650 set up is much more feasible due to the higher input voltage reducing the amp load asked from the batteries, allowing them to actually provide such a high power more safely, and without the problems you describe.

 

[AndriaD]

It is not really all that complicated, AndriaD. First thing a real electronics technician would have to do when testing a mod is use a power supply that can provide more than enough power for the device. It would need to be external otherwise the analysis is also testing the power cells used. A laboratory bench power supply would be good but something that could output something like 35 Amps at 7.2 volts would be fairly rare and expensive. The reviewers could have used some cell holders for a half dozen lithium cells and built a pack that could deliver the necessary power but no reviewer bothered to do that. The failure to use an adequate power supply to test the device makes them idiots unworthy of testing anything electrical or electronic.

That makes sense even to me, and I understand the technical aspects of electricity/electronics in only the most broad and general terms. So, I guess it's safe to say that the worldwide epidemic of idiocy is becoming widespread now in electrical/electronic matters, which is scary to consider.

Andria