Twisted surface area question.

[strigamort]

Does it matter how twisted you twist your wire? I twisted some wire by hand and I did some with a drill. The stuff with the drill snapped (as I've read is correct) before it got anywhere near as tightly twisted as the hand made stuff. The stuff in the goon is machine twisted, the other pic is what I did by hand. The latter almost looks like Clapton. Does it matter one way or the other? I would think the tighter stuff uses more wire (=more surface area?) than the drill made stuff. Either way I don't know if it makes an impact on flavor.

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[strigamort]

Another question.

This is a pic of a coil I made with a couple of claptons from Smok. Obviously the twisted stock is thicker overall, but if they were equal, (same diameter, two strands total, same number of wraps, leg length, etc) what would be the advantage of claptoned wire? I assume there is a benefit since clapton is more difficult to make over twisting.

I'm sure I'll make an example of each and try them for myself, but if you have an idea of what to expect I'd like to know!

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[Carambrda]

I am guessing the more tightly twisted version would perform a whole lot better. The same actually holds true for tiger coils.

 

[Carambrda]

As for regular claptons, I think they're simply not worth bothering with. The claptoning technique only really pays off in stapled tigers, fused claptons, framed staples, staples, staggertons, staple staggered fused claptons, and various many other build types that can take up (a lot) more time and or effort to get right.

 

[strigamort]

A fused clapton is two or more core wires, wrapped, right? I've been trying to figure out why it's beneficial to have more than one core, aside from a difference in resistance. I love the look of the really exotic stuff and I can see myself trying my hand at it in the near future, but as far as practicality goes, it seems like most of them would have a long ramp and cool-down? I mean, I'm 100% guessing there, but the more metal, the more energy it takes to fire and cool, no?

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[BKTOAD]

A fused clapton is two or more core wires, wrapped, right? I've been trying to figure out why it's beneficial to have more than one core, aside from a difference in resistance. I love the look of the really exotic stuff and I can see myself trying my hand at it in the near future, but as far as practicality goes, it seems like most of them would have a long ramp and cool-down? I mean, I'm 100% guessing there, but the more metal, the more energy it takes to fire and cool, no?

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A fused clapton (with a 36g or smaller wrap) will ramp and cool quicker than twisted wire of the same gauge. The fused clapton is flat and thin. Twisted is a lot thicker. As a bad visual, consider this Line | as a fused clapton while this O is a twisted wire. Holds a lot more heat. For, lets say a 5.5 wrap 28g twisted vs 5.5 wrap 28g fused, the twisted actually has more 28g.

Plus fused clapton holds way more juice in way more crevices.

The flavor and vapor quality are miles ahead on fused vs twisted.

Once you vape a fused, twisted will become a thing of the past.

 

[32bitlord]

Clapton and fused clapton have the best level vaping experience across the board. Some builds may give you a little better flavour or better cloud production however they often can be niggly to set up on a mod for a great experience. I always used a fused clapton and never liked twisted builds but since I started vaping in TC mode I have found myself preferring a standard SS 32 over 26 clapton as it just gives me a perfect vapour/ flavour ratio without a slow ramp up or slow cool down time and without spitting or a too hot vape. Everyone likes a different style of vape and the type of RDA/ RTA you use can also have a big impact. Experiment with some pre built coils and try not to overthink the science behind it and once you find one you love build them yourself.


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[Carambrda]

The ramp up time is part determined by the amount of metal used in the coil, yes of course. But the amount of metal is also determined by the various thicknesses of the individual wire strands, their lenghts, and then there's also the possibility to add multiple staged heating effects so various different areas of the metal surface will heat up at various different speeds, as well as differences caused by combining different geometries with multiple/different types of metal. The number, shapes/orientations, and sizes of the cavities and or crevasses between the metal structure also part determine the wicking properties of the coil, how fast the heated coil itself can soak up boiling juice from the cotton wick, and how much juice the coil can hold. These are only some examples of how the ramp up characteristic can be affected considerably by a whole plethora of other factors─and how these same factors can affect not just the ramp up, but also the vape experience as whole.

 

[Carambrda]

Clapton and fused clapton have the best level vaping experience across the board. Some builds may give you a little better flavour or better cloud production however they often can be niggly to set up on a mod for a great experience. I always used a fused clapton and never liked twisted builds but since I started vaping in TC mode I have found myself preferring a standard SS 32 over 26 clapton as it just gives me a perfect vapour/ flavour ratio without a slow ramp up or slow cool down time and without spitting or a too hot vape. Everyone likes a different style of vape and the type of RDA/ RTA you use can also have a big impact. Experiment with some pre built coils and try not to overthink the science behind it and once you find one you love build them yourself.


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The vast majority of prebuilt coils out there are no way representative of how a certain build type will perform vs. another.

 

[Carambrda]

A fused clapton (with a 36g or smaller wrap) will ramp and cool quicker than twisted wire of the same gauge. The fused clapton is flat and thin. Twisted is a lot thicker. As a bad visual, consider this Line | as a fused clapton while this O is a twisted wire. Holds a lot more heat. For, lets say a 5.5 wrap 28g twisted vs 5.5 wrap 28g fused, the twisted actually has more 28g.

Plus fused clapton holds way more juice in way more crevices.

The flavor and vapor quality are miles ahead on fused vs twisted.

Once you vape a fused, twisted will become a thing of the past.

Agreed. As an aside, I'll add that twisting round wires together as part of building a more complex coil still has its merits─for example, as part of the stapled helix coil.

 

[strigamort]

Awesome stuff guys! I actually like the complexity and science behind this stuff. It'll keep me thinking for some time and that's exactly what I need.

Yes, I've heard time and again that clapton is the way to go for flavor. I have those Smok claptons and wasn't impressed at all, but I get that they are mass produced coils with a possible low level of qc. I need to grab some wrap guage wire and I'll be up and running with the fused claptons.

The explanation as far as ramp time on fc versus twisted makes perfect sense.

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[Carambrda]

Having more metal doesn't necessarily always translate to lowered vape performance, though. It also depends on several many factors, such as the type of build that you choose, and the wattage you vape─as well as depends on whether your mod has the capability to preheat your coils (and the capability to apply a custom power curve for preheat).

 

[strigamort]

I don't know much about my mod yet as I've only had it for a couple of days. There's no computer software to set up a custom curve, and no traditional (if that's even a thing) way to set up a curve on the mod. There are settings that affect the curve I think. Also, the mod runs at 151 watts (I think it's defeatable and I don't know if they raised it to 171 watts with an update that raised the output capability) for a given time to ramp quickly, then it fires at whatever wattage you chose up to the temp you set like any other tc mod. I think the G2 hits hard enough to support most builds. It seems harder hitting than the Alien set at 220w which doesn't really surprise me.

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[otto85]

2 major factors in clapton performance is the metal type amd the gauges of wire combined. Kanthal in comparison to nichrome80 ramps up and cools down alot slower requiring higher wattage in order to perform right. 24g core is best with 36-42g wire, anything bigger wastes alot of eliquid and battery life. 28g core fused claptons wrapped with 32-36g is a solid combo great vapor production coupled with awesome flavor, anything smaller for the wrap is basically pointless. Despite what was said earlier in the thread building most claptons is not that time consuming they just take practice like anything else. Everyone has their preferences so whats most important is to not listen to anyone telling you 1 build is better then another simply watch how to videos and experement. As for your question about twisted wire, if your running 24g they work best semi tightly wrapped and 28g works best tightly wrapped, but again experement find the specs YOU enjoy

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[strigamort]

Thanks for that. I agree that testing different builds is the best way to go. Even so, when I make or read threads like this I usually learn something totally new. For example, I had no idea that kanthal had those characteristics versus nichrome, and a rough idea of what to look for in terms of wire diameter for what I want to build will save me some $ not buying a bunch of stuff that I probably wouldn't end up using.

As far as claptons go, the one thing I hear and read over and over is that people prefer clapton wire for flavor. Usually spaced. That's why I'll start there when I get my order of wrap wire. I have 24g and I think 38g SS coming on a slow boat. I've got my small vice, cordless drill and fishing swivels ready.

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[Synphul]

I'm not sure compared to twisted, meaning I don't know the ramp up difference between 2x26g twisted vs 2x26g fused clapton. The fused clapton should ramp faster since it's essentially a parallel build. Same amount of mass as a longer coil with more surface area but faster response. A fused clapton is just a parallel coil with a thin outer wrap isn't it?

As I understand the higher gauge wrap shouldn't come into play much for overall resistance so only the core wires are the ones really carrying the current. The wraps of a fused clapton though help hold juice and offer a sort of 2 stage heating effect since the cores heat up first then eventually warms up the wrap. Juice will fall in between so some will be vaporized by the hotter cores and some will be vaporized by the wrap but at a lower temp (unless it's a really long pull).

I use twisted quite a bit because they're simple, better than a plain coil (imo) and at the moment I don't have small enough wire for a proper clapton/fused clapton. I'd think twisted would heat up all at once. The grooves of the twist may be an enhancement over a single fatter gauge wire but won't offer the 2 stage temp/vapor since they're wound so tight and there's no inside/outside to them.

 

[otto85]

Thanks for that. I agree that testing different builds is the best way to go. Even so, when I make or read threads like this I usually learn something totally new. For example, I had no idea that kanthal had those characteristics versus nichrome, and a rough idea of what to look for in terms of wire diameter for what I want to build will save me some $ not buying a bunch of stuff that I probably wouldn't end up using.

As far as claptons go, the one thing I hear and read over and over is that people prefer clapton wire for flavor. Usually spaced. That's why I'll start there when I get my order of wrap wire. I have 24g and I think 38g SS coming on a slow boat. I've got my small vice, cordless drill and fishing swivels ready.

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You can look up kanthal 24g specs and should give you all the info including ohm per foot, the same goes for all resistance wire. The lower ohm per foot the higher the ramp up

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[otto85]

I'm not sure compared to twisted, meaning I don't know the ramp up difference between 2x26g twisted vs 2x26g fused clapton. The fused clapton should ramp faster since it's essentially a parallel build. Same amount of mass as a longer coil with more surface area but faster response. A fused clapton is just a parallel coil with a thin outer wrap isn't it?

As I understand the higher gauge wrap shouldn't come into play much for overall resistance so only the core wires are the ones really carrying the current. The wraps of a fused clapton though help hold juice and offer a sort of 2 stage heating effect since the cores heat up first then eventually warms up the wrap. Juice will fall in between so some will be vaporized by the hotter cores and some will be vaporized by the wrap but at a lower temp (unless it's a really long pull).

I use twisted quite a bit because they're simple, better than a plain coil (imo) and at the moment I don't have small enough wire for a proper clapton/fused clapton. I'd think twisted would heat up all at once. The grooves of the twist may be an enhancement over a single fatter gauge wire but won't offer the 2 stage temp/vapor since they're wound so tight and there's no inside/outside to them.

28g fused claptons will always have a little slower ramp up when compared to 28g twisted because the claptoms have a little more meterial to them. The outer wire on claptons most definetly do affect the ohm and ramp up, electricty always follows the path of least resistance in this case its the smaller wire gauge of the 2 meaning approx 60% of the power actually flows through the outer wrap, all metal in a build affect the ohms, the smaller the wire the less resistance so it doesnt make much difference but there is a difference

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[Carambrda]

I'm not sure compared to twisted, meaning I don't know the ramp up difference between 2x26g twisted vs 2x26g fused clapton. The fused clapton should ramp faster since it's essentially a parallel build. Same amount of mass as a longer coil with more surface area but faster response. A fused clapton is just a parallel coil with a thin outer wrap isn't it?

As I understand the higher gauge wrap shouldn't come into play much for overall resistance so only the core wires are the ones really carrying the current. The wraps of a fused clapton though help hold juice and offer a sort of 2 stage heating effect since the cores heat up first then eventually warms up the wrap. Juice will fall in between so some will be vaporized by the hotter cores and some will be vaporized by the wrap but at a lower temp (unless it's a really long pull).

I use twisted quite a bit because they're simple, better than a plain coil (imo) and at the moment I don't have small enough wire for a proper clapton/fused clapton. I'd think twisted would heat up all at once. The grooves of the twist may be an enhancement over a single fatter gauge wire but won't offer the 2 stage temp/vapor since they're wound so tight and there's no inside/outside to them.

By using Nichrome80 for the higher gauge wrap and using Kanthal A1 for the lower gauge cores it becomes possible to get the wrap to actually heat up faster than the cores.

 

[BKTOAD]

28g fused claptons will always have a little slower ramp up when compared to 28g twisted because the claptoms have a little more meterial to them.

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Untrue as long as the fused are perfectly flat and wrapped with a 36g or thinner.

True if the "fused" is twisted or wrapped with 32g.

The twist shortens the wire. Using more 28g to make the same number of wraps. There is a good amount more 28g in a twisted than a parallel coil.

 

[otto85]

Untrue as long as the fused are perfectly flat and wrapped with a 36g or thinner.

True if the "fused" is twisted or wrapped with 32g.

The twist shortens the wire. Using more 28g to make the same number of wraps. There is a good amount more 28g in a twisted than a parallel coil.

True with a coil made up of the same id and number of wraps but thats not a true comparison. Those 2 features coupled with identical ohms is a true comparison and in that case the fused clapton has a more material then twisted so yes it does have a little more ramp up time. There is also a big difference between a fused clapton and a parralel coil

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[BKTOAD]

True with a coil made up of the same id and number of wraps but thats not a true comparison. Those 2 features coupled with identical ohms is a true comparison and in that case the fused clapton has a more material then twisted so yes it does have a little more ramp up time. There is also a big difference between a fused clapton and a parralel coil

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In my first post on this thread, i referenced identical wrap count on my hypothetical coils. To make a 3mm 28g twisted coil the same resistance as a 3mm 5.5 wrap fused 28g, the twisted would only be 3.5 wraps. So, not only does twisted wire have inherently less surface area (that contacts cotton), this hypothetical 3.5 wrap twisted build would have even less surface area than a 5.5 wrap fused due to fewer wraps.

If you consider resistance important for a regulated mod.

Resistance makes little difference on a regulated mod as long as it is within the resistance range for the mod. (But makes a world of difference on an unregulated one.)

Hopefully the OP is not learning to build on a mech out of the gate.

 

[Synphul]

@otto85 That does and doesn't make sense. Electricity follows the path of least resistance, in a fused clapton that would be the cores not the wrap. Assuming there's a decent variable between the two, 26ga cores with 36 or 38ga wrap. I'm not sure 60% of the power would flow through the wrap, that seems backwards. For gauges that high (wire that thin) resistance is generally over 12-15ohms per foot and wouldn't even register on a regulated mod. Doubt it would make much difference on a regulated either. Many folks suggest wraps have little effect on power.

@Carambrda Sorry I should have clarified, I was referring to wire of the same type. Things could change depending on mixing and matching kanthal with ss, nichrome and everything else out there in infinite ways. For sake of simplicity I was factoring same wire type to concentrate on the mechanics of the build, twisted vs clapton/fused clapton. Wire type will make a difference how it's paired up but that's more to wire type comparisons than relating to build form.

 

[otto85]

 

[strigamort]

Okay, I've been given the gift of much to think about.

BKTOAD- Nah, I'm firmly in the regulated camp for now. I do plan on getting a mech soon though. Still, you have nothing to worry about. I like to believe that I am an intelligent person, but moreover, I am a cautious person. I don't believe that you will be seeing me on the news, unless they are doing a feature on rediculously cool people, then I can make no promises.

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[Carambrda]

@Carambrda Sorry I should have clarified, I was referring to wire of the same type. Things could change depending on mixing and matching kanthal with ss, nichrome and everything else out there in infinite ways. For sake of simplicity I was factoring same wire type to concentrate on the mechanics of the build, twisted vs clapton/fused clapton. Wire type will make a difference how it's paired up but that's more to wire type comparisons than relating to build form.

No worries. Was only pointing out some extra possibilities. IMO the only real cons of throwing Kanthal A1 in the mix are 1/ if you add too much and or choose a too low gauge of Kanthal A1 wire, the coil will take forever to ramp up, and, 2/ you need to keep pulsing (dry firing) your newly made coil for about a whole minute before wicking and juicing it up or else there will be a metallic undertaste.

 

[Chainvapor]

If you want a tool to make fused claptons really easy check out this thread.

http://vapingunderground.com/threads/daedalus-easy-clapton-coils-for-everyone.311522/#post-1638760

http://vapingunderground.com/threads/daedalus-easy-clapton-coils-for-everyone.311522/#post-1638760

Happy Vaping!
CV

 

[strigamort]

I saw that device on YouTube about a week ago. Great idea. I don't think(?) I'll be making clapton wire in bulk, but then again it would be nice to have the best quality wire that I can make

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