Really not impressed with the 'VTC4S" I have.

[conanthewarrior]

Hi people.

I am currently using a lemo V2 dual chimney build at 0.5Ohm as my main tank, and with the VTC4's, when they get to around 20% capacity, they no longer can fire unless it is at 10 watts.

The 25R's I own go all the way down to zero, firing 30 all the time.

I purchased from a reputable shop, where I know people have got genuine VTC4's from so I was not worried, but the way they are acting and how fast they go down, is it likely I got shafted with some fakes? Worst part is I used them at 150 watts the day before yesterday, just to try it with a dual 0.15 build. I got a 2 second pull before it went dry, and was harsh, but I just wanted to try it.

Now I have done it, I can vape normally, and my maximum is about 80, I like about 60-65 on my RDA's and about 30-35 on my Lemo.

So, would you say I have got some fakes or they just cant output the power needed at 19%, the 25R's works all the way to zero before the 'check battery' warning.

 

[Robert B]

I was under the impression Sony quit making 18650's almost 2 years ago. but whatever. Probably not healthy for any liion batt to drain it down to zero. When I was using a regulated device, I would change the batts at 50 to 60%

 

[Zamazam]

I'd use them a few times and charge them up again. If the poor performance lasts, you might have counterfeits or batteries taken from a power pack of some sort.

 

[Zamazam]

correct, mine discharges to 3.2v before the check battery comes up.

 

[Number3124]

What mod are you using them in?

 

[robot zombie]

I wonder if that has something to do with the way it reads the batteries. It may have something to do with the discharge curve. I'd be curious to see how the resting voltages of your VTC's when they start dropping off compare to those of your 25R's at "0%."

Also bear in mind that the 25R's have a higher capacity than the VTC4's to begin with. You're trading mah's for extra headroom.

That still seems odd to me, though.

 

[Gazzman313]

Couldn't help but notice your original post was this year.. don't want to seem odd but you do know any Sony vtc range was discontinued last year? the new Sony range are not vtc and all the old (real) vtc are basically dead by use or not real :/

So really if your batteries are genuine, they're used way before you had them.

 

[Zamazam]

Couldn't help but notice your original post was this year.. don't want to seem odd but you do know any Sony vtc range was discontinued last year? the new Sony range are not vtc and all the old (real) vtc are basically dead by use or not real :/

So really if your batteries are genuine, they're used way before you had them.

There are wholesalers who sat on VTC batteries when the market was snapping them up, there are a few that are now releasing them into the market. I have a bunch of VTC4's and 5's bought right before the announcement of manufacturing discontinuation. I have also looked at the VTC4's that are on the market now, indeed most of them are the real deal, but they're counterfeits out there too. Efest used to re-wrap VTC4's, but no longer.

 

[conanthewarrior]

They are working a lot better now than they was working. I just didn't know what to buy to use my sigelei at 150 watts, as thats what I wanted to try. Now I have done it, I am going back to 25R's. This is the 3rd time they have been in, and they seem good now.

I thought on our Regulated devices, zero Percent wasn't actually 2.5 volts minimum, I thought It was around 3.something. I will remember to take them out at 30% if it is genuinely reading them as fully discharged, but literally discharged, I gathered it was just a 'nows the time to charge' not that it was really taking them down to zero.

If it is, I will be stopping going below 25-30% and then putting on charge.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to add I did know that sony stopped producing them, but I got them from a reputable source, and was told they were the bees knees so bought some. I don't need to buy more though, as I vape maximum 80 watts, so the 25R's are fine.

 

[Number3124]

Ah, the Sig. I recently got a Sig150 as well. Here's the thing. A 25r will work safely in at 150watts for quite a while. The issue that people seem to forget is that wattage is a measurement of power. In series or parallel you're using two batteries at the same time. This means that you have double the wattage from those batteries. It's a zero sum game. In the end the batteries will last the same amount of time at the same wattage. In parallel it's because you have twice the mAh. In series it's because you're have twice the volts and thus use half the amps. Watts, similarly are a function of amps and volts.

Please bear in mind that the following calculations do not account for ineffiency in the mod and presume perfect conservation of energy.

Thus a single 25r has 4.2 volts and 20 amps. Now, watts available may be calculated (a single battery, 2 batteries in parallel, and 2 in series) as follows:

4.2v * 20a = 84 watts

4.2v * 40a = 168 watts

8.4v * 20a = 168 watts

As you can see, there is headroom. Not a ton, and as the battery voltage falls, lets say to 3.6 volts per cell, you shouldn't use it at 150w as shown below.

7.2v * 20a = 144 watts.

Now, that isn't a massive deficient. Pulse ratings (<10s, the max pull time of a Sig150w) could theoretically cover it, but relying on pulse ratings is a terrible idea.

The same goes for the VTC5s. They have a higher pulse rating, but it's still a terrible idea.

VTC4s and VTC3s are the only battery I'd trust with the task on a nominal charge. Math as follows.

7.2v * 30a = 216

Hope that helps clear things up.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Ah, the Sig. I recently got a Sig150 as well. Here's the thing. A 25r will work safely in at 150watts for quite a while. The issue that people seem to forget is that wattage is a measurement of power. In series or parallel you're using two batteries at the same time. This means that you have double the wattage from those batteries. It's a zero sum game. In the end the batteries will last the same amount of time at the same wattage. In parallel it's because you have twice the mAh. In series it's because you're have twice the volts and thus use half the amps. Watts, similarly are a function of amps and volts.

Please bear in mind that the following calculations do not account for ineffiency in the mod and presume perfect conservation of energy.

Thus a single 25r has 4.2 volts and 20 amps. Now, watts available may be calculated (a single battery, 2 batteries in parallel, and 2 in series) as follows:

4.2v * 20a = 84 watts

4.2v * 40a = 168 watts

8.4v * 20a = 168 watts

As you can see, there is headroom. Not a ton, and as the battery voltage falls, lets say to 3.6 volts per cell, you shouldn't use it at 150w as shown below.

7.2v * 20a = 144 watts.

Now, that isn't a massive deficient. Pulse ratings (<10s, the max pull time of a Sig150w) could theoretically cover it, but relying on pulse ratings is a terrible idea.

The same goes for the VTC5s. They have a higher pulse rating, but it's still a terrible idea.

VTC4s and VTC3s are the only battery I'd trust with the task on a nominal charge. Math as follows.

7.2v * 30a = 216

Hope that helps clear things up.

Thanks man, that does. I use the mod at a max 80 watts really, so I guess 25R's should be safe at this level? If I am honest maths is not My strong point, it never has been, so I use calculators to work out coils, batteries, and such.

I never realised that 2 batteries lasted the same as a single battery, thats news to me, but at least I know now.

I did notice in your calculations, you did use 40 amps as an example. I have been told that the battery doesn't double its capable Amp limit because there is 2. Is that true, or false?

Thank you for the math though, good to see someone who can do it

 

[Lefty]

The 40 amps was for batteries in parallel. Notice in the next example (series) the voltage increased not the amperage.

 

[Lefty]

I thought on our Regulated devices, zero Percent wasn't actually 2.5 volts minimum, I thought It was around 3.something.

It varies by the chip and the manufacturer and the choices made by them when designing.

 

[Number3124]

Thanks man, that does. I use the mod at a max 80 watts really, so I guess 25R's should be safe at this level? If I am honest maths is not My strong point, it never has been, so I use calculators to work out coils, batteries, and such.

I never realised that 2 batteries lasted the same as a single battery, thats news to me, but at least I know now.

I did notice in your calculations, you did use 40 amps as an example. I have been told that the battery doesn't double its capable Amp limit because there is 2. Is that true, or false?

Thank you for the math though, good to see someone who can do it

Sorry, that's not what I meant, though I realize now my wording was unclear. I was addressing the misconception that series configurations don't last as long as parallel configurations. Both configurations essentially double your mAh even though you can only correctly say that of parallel configuration. At the same resistance parallel will last twice as long as series.

Let's say you have a 0.6 ohm build and a parallel and a series box with two 25rs in them. The parallel box will last twice as long in them. However, that's because the parallel box is only pushing 7 amps and 29.4 watts to the atty and only 3.5 amps a cell. Meanwhile the series box is pushing 14 amps and 117.6 watts. So, as you can see there's a reason the parallel configuration lasts so much longer. To get similar wattage from a parallel box you would need 0.15 ohm coils.

Hope that clears some things up for you. If I just made it even more confusing just let me know.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Sorry, that's not what I meant, though I realize now my wording was unclear. I was addressing the misconception that series configurations don't last as long as parallel configurations. Both configurations essentially double your mAh even though you can only correctly say that of parallel configuration. At the same resistance parallel will last twice as long as series.

Let's say you have a 0.6 ohm build and a parallel and a series box with two 25rs in them. The parallel box will last twice as long in them. However, that's because the parallel box is only pushing 7 amps and 29.4 watts to the atty and only 3.5 amps a cell. Meanwhile the series box is pushing 14 amps and 117.6 watts. So, as you can see there's a reason the parallel configuration lasts so much longer. To get similar wattage from a parallel box you would need 0.15 ohm coils.

Hope that clears some things up for you. If I just made it even more confusing just let me know.

No, you are helping me. What mods are there that are regulated and parralel? Is Series more common? I ask as the longer battery life sounds appealing, although my sig150 even though its series, when used at 30 watts seems to last longer than my sig 30 with a 25R, I have been vaping with them for a good while and they are at 92%. The sig30 did give me a full days vape though, this just seems to last longer? Maybe placebo effect?

 

[Number3124]

No, you are helping me. What mods are there that are regulated and parralel? Is Series more common? I ask as the longer battery life sounds appealing, although my sig150 even though its series, when used at 30 watts seems to last longer than my sig 30 with a 25R, I have been vaping with them for a good while and they are at 92%. The sig30 did give me a full days vape though, this just seems to last longer? Maybe placebo effect?

There are no parallel regulated boxes. Regulated mods use a transformer that requires a minimum of 6.4 volts. or there abouts (3.2 volts per cell, the most common cutoff point). I was trying to point out above that it does really matter when it comes to battery life. You'll still get twice the life out of a cell at a given wattage no matter the configuration. A regulated mod drains batteries based on the wattage at which you have it set.

If the Sig were a parallel and used a transformer that transformed amps to volts (I don't know if that's possible) you'd still have the same battery life.

 

[conanthewarrior]

There are no parallel regulated boxes. Regulated mods use a transformer that requires a minimum of 6.4 volts. or there abouts (3.2 volts per cell, the most common cutoff point). I was trying to point out above that it does really matter when it comes to battery life. You'll still get twice the life out of a cell at a given wattage no matter the configuration. A regulated mod drains batteries based on the wattage at which you have it set.

If the Sig were a parallel and used a transformer that transformed amps to volts (I don't know if that's possible) you'd still have the same battery life.

Ahh fair enough. I think I will stick to regulated series then, as I know I will mess up big time with a unregulated mod.

Thank you for all the info you have provided though, given me an insight into configurations a bit more.

 

[conanthewarrior]

It varies by the chip and the manufacturer and the choices made by them when designing.

But, generally, its not to a dangerous level is it? Like enough to kill a cell?

 

[Number3124]

Ahh fair enough. I think I will stick to regulated series then, as I know I will mess up big time with a unregulated mod.

Thank you for all the info you have provided though, given me an insight into configurations a bit more.

Not a problem dude. Also, while I'm at it here's one thing I think might help you and any new vapers reading this.

mAh, the unit we use to measure capacity, stands for milli-Amp hours. It's how many hours a battery will take to discharge at 1 milliamp. A more practical unit is just Ah, Amp hours. Now, take your 25r. It's a 2,500 mAh battery. Let's make it Ah instead. That would be 2.5 Ah. That means that at 1 amp you can run the battery for a sold 2.5 hours.

This is why, on paper, parallel configuration doubles your capacity. Since load is split over both batteries each cell discharges half of amps pulled by the mod/coil.

In practice however, you'll do well to note, that, as I said, watts (which are what we want, it's how hot our vape is and how much of it we get) is a function of volts and amps. Watts = Volts X Amps.

Now, series doubles Volts. Volts are also what pushes current (amps are a measurement of current) through a circuit. Thus, at any given resistance, series configuration pushes around twice the amps. This means that at any given resistance a series mod will last about half the time.

However, to get the equivalent wattage of a parallel mod from a series box you will be using half the amps that you would in a parallel box thus your batteries will last twice as long. Hope that also clears some things.

 

[Lefty]

But, generally, its not to a dangerous level is it? Like enough to kill a cell?

I haven't seen one that goes low enough to kill a cell (given some of the weird knockoff china chips out there I suppose it's possible). Some do go lower than might be preferable to prolong battery cycle life in the long run. That's why you see varying statements from people on when they prefer to pull them.

 

[conanthewarrior]

I haven't seen one that goes low enough to kill a cell (given some of the weird knockoff china chips out there I suppose it's possible). Some do go lower than might be preferable to prolong battery cycle life in the long run. That's why you see varying statements from people on when they prefer to pull them.

That is good. I have been using the low battery indicator on my sigelei, and they are Yihi chips, I think they are meant to be quite good? It really means nothing to me, all I know is how to stay safe, select a wattage and build a coil to a safe resistance for the device in question.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Not a problem dude. Also, while I'm at it here's one thing I think might help you and any new vapers reading this.

mAh, the unit we use to measure capacity, stands for milli-Amp hours. It's how many hours a battery will take to discharge at 1 milliamp. A more practical unit is just Ah, Amp hours. Now, take your 25r. It's a 2,500 mAh battery. Let's make it Ah instead. That would be 2.5 Ah. That means that at 1 amp you can run the battery for a sold 2.5 hours.

This is why, on paper, parallel configuration doubles your capacity. Since load is split over both batteries each cell discharges half of amps pulled by the mod/coil.

In practice however, you'll do well to note, that, as I said, watts (which are what we want, it's how hot our vape is and how much of it we get) is a function of volts and amps. Watts = Volts X Amps.

Now, series doubles Volts. Volts are also what pushes current (amps are a measurement of current) through a circuit. Thus, at any given resistance, series configuration pushes around twice the amps. This means that at any given resistance a series mod will last about half the time.

However, to get the equivalent wattage of a parallel mod from a series box you will be using half the amps that you would in a parallel box thus your batteries will last twice as long. Hope that also clears some things.

That makes sense. I was confused at first, I thought you meant dual battery builds lasted the same as singles lol. Also pretty cool I am using half the amps to get the same wattage, so the batteries will last twice as long in series.

Thanks for your help man, I am still fairly new to this, I only actually own the sigelei 150, as I gave the 30 to the missus to use. I think I may get a 75 TC in a couple of months, in case there is any issues that need ironing out. I will mainly use it as a 75 watt mod, the TC is just a bonus. 75 should be well enough as dual coil I use around 60 watts.

 

[Number3124]

That makes sense. I was confused at first, I thought you meant dual battery builds lasted the same as singles lol. Also pretty cool I am using half the amps to get the same wattage, so the batteries will last twice as long in series.

Thanks for your help man, I am still fairly new to this, I only actually own the sigelei 150, as I gave the 30 to the missus to use. I think I may get a 75 TC in a couple of months, in case there is any issues that need ironing out. I will mainly use it as a 75 watt mod, the TC is just a bonus. 75 should be well enough as dual coil I use around 60 watts.

Indeed. As I turns out I don't quite use the power I thought I did. Doesn't matter though. I have a Sig150 that usually hangs out between 55 and 80 watts. However, the headroom is nice as it means the chips and transformers aren't being stressed.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Indeed. As I turns out I don't quite use the power I thought I did. Doesn't matter though. I have a Sig150 that usually hangs out between 55 and 80 watts. However, the headroom is nice as it means the chips and transformers aren't being stressed.

Haha, thats where mine likes to hang usually. Guess ours must be mates or something lol . But seriously, even with a dual clapton, 80 is enough, I can push more, but there really is now point that I see, when I get great flavour and clouds already.

 

[conanthewarrior]

I think by zero, he means the cut-off voltage. (~3.2v?) but yes, they shouldn't be drained to the limit, ever.

You are correcnt, I meant cut off voltage, not damage level to the battery

 

[NemesisVaper]

Most unprotected high drain cells have their capacity measured by the manufacturer as from being charged to 4.2V and discharged to 2.5V. This is 2.5V under load, not resting voltage. Any regulated mod pretty much has a much higher cutoff voltage than this.

There's absolutely zero risk in using your Sigelei until it shows the low battery warning and refuses to fire. As long as you have cells that can maintain the amp requirements of the wattage you're vaping at, at the cutoff voltage of 6.4V, you're fine. The more frequently you change them out though the longer the cells should last. This isn't a safety implication, just economics. However, batteries are cheap.

There are indeed parallel wired regulated devices available. The vapour flask is wired in parallel. Sigelei could have used two cells in the 75W in parallel if they wanted, they just choose single cell. Adding another cell makes no practical difference to the way the mod would function, it's still getting the 4.2-3.2V it requires.