Advice needed-Forgotten how to build for high watts :(

[conanthewarrior]

Hi people.

I got the new Sig150TC yesterday, and am very impressed in TC mode.

I built a 0.2 24 gauge 3MM dual coil build in my el cabron, and noticed that 60 watts seemed more powerful on the new device (in power mode) than the old.

But, I used to be able to build so I could fully test the device at over 100 Watts, but I have not cloud chased properly in a few months, so could do with a few pointers.

I am using the same 24 gauge wire that I used in previous builds, so I know its not the kanthal, as I ordered about 50 Meters of it and there is a fair bit left, Is it worth going for just 4 Turns a side to get 0.1?

Would the coil be of sufficient size at 3 wraps, as I had a fiery incident with a coil that was only 3 wraps, but 26 gauge TI.

Any advice would be much appreciated, as I have not tested the device past 60 watts, and when I get a new device I do like to test them out at higher power to see how they perform.

I also need to do the same with the Xcube 2, so any pointers for getting a High wattage, unburnt 3-5 second pull would be great. I do ensure the coils are soaked in juice, I just must be missing something I used to do.

Thanks for everyone that helps me out, I have learnt everything from here and the UK forums, if you people were not about to help I would have a much lower knowledge of devices.

 

[TRAPstar]

run a parallel or triple parallel to gain surface area while retaining low resistance

 

[conanthewarrior]

run a parallel or triple parallel to gain surface area while retaining low resistance

Ahh, parrallel coils! I had forgotten about them. They are just the wire side by side if I remember correctly yeah? And go for dual coils I gather like usual?

 

[robot zombie]

I've been playing around with the same box you've got lately, and I've also noticed that it seems to hit harder than expected for the wattage. I don't have a whole lot of experience with it, but I've made a few observations across the 20 or so different builds I've done specifically for it over this past week or so.

Tiny coils are a no-go. It's not about the resistance so much as it is the surface area. Big, macro-diameter coils that can hold lots of wick are a good way to go for maxing it.

With dual 24's, I find the highest I'm willing to go is about 80 watts, give or take 10. I've been liking to stay between .37 and .45, so 9-12 wraps @ 3mm. I find that if I go much lower, I can't run them past 3.9v without scorching juice. High-surface-area dual 24's seem to perform very nicely between 70 and 90 watts. The flavor is very much there and the vapor production is definitely getting up there. I initially tried a .27 dual that was 7 wraps @ 2.5mm as something I could use on either a mech or the sig. It did well at around 65 watts, but not nearly as well as the aforementioned.

If you really wanna max it out, then I'd recommend dropping a dual 22g in something with lots of airflow. Maybe something like 10 or 11 wraps @ 3mm. A wrap less @ 3.5mm might be even better with how much juice it rips through. That should put you in the ballpark of .3. Running it at the full 150w will nuke a good bit of the flavor and wicking only keeps up for maybe 7 seconds before it runs dry, but it does indeed chuck with much shorter pulls and the temperature is surprisingly bearable. It performs much better at 100w to 125w, but I imagine you're only looking for something that CAN be run at 150w, not something that will ONLY be run at 150w.

You could also get there with dual-parallel 24's. I find those to be a little on the hot side, myself. You could probably shoot for the same resistance you would with 22g. Wouldn't run em at 150w, though.

Just what I've found works for me. Not sure how well these will work in your atties with your juice. I'm using ax VG juice. I'm sticking 24's in my mutations 22's in my troll. Adjust to space, juice, and airflow.

 

[TRAPstar]

Ahh, parrallel coils! I had forgotten about them. They are just the wire side by side if I remember correctly yeah? And go for dual coils I gather like usual?

yes sir! this is a bad picture but im using triple parallel 28awg A1 3mm ID and "6" wraps (i think lol i wont count because its a p.i.t.a on a triple parallel) and its running at .2 ohms and chucks a coolish/warmish (makes sense, right?) vape. i run it at 100w on my sig only because my mod doesn't go higher!

 

[TRAPstar]

you could always do a dual or quad nano dragon build and be fancy like me

 

[conanthewarrior]

Well, I couldn't get the parrallel working, I will practice that again as I have made them successfully before. I tried 3 wraps a side, 0.1, 3mm duals.

I tried it at 150, and managed a 5 second hit. It was not dry, but very, very hot.

Now I have done it, I wont do it again on that device unless I make an insane build that needs it. But I just like to test my new devices to their full power.

I will try the Xcube 2 next once it has cooled down.

 

[conanthewarrior]

you could always do a dual or quad nano dragon build and be fancy like me View attachment 29915

I am going to hone my skills again, as I learnt all the coils (the coils to my knowledge) when I first started to vape.

Could someone remind me what a parralel coil does again, or a triple parralel, plus a nano dragon coil? Tomorow will be spent going back to basics with coil building, using good old rip trippers guides online again

 

[TRAPstar]

honestly most people i know vape around 75-100 watts if not lower anyways, that is unless cloud chasing.

 

[TRAPstar]

I am going to hone my skills again, as I learnt all the coils (the coils to my knowledge) when I first started to vape.

Could someone remind me what a parralel coil does again, or a triple parralel, plus a nano dragon coil? Tomorow will be spent going back to basics with coil building, using good old rip trippers guides online again

basically:

parallel allows you to increase surface area while retaining the same resistance as a single strand.

dragon coils are nano coils (no wicking inside, 1mm or so ID) that are set on and angle, with all but one end covered with wicking (think of it as an exhaust port if that helps you visualize) usually done as a dual but ive seen quads. they look like a dragon blowing smoke out of its nostrils. they look cool, and chuck vapor but arent an every day thing, at least for me.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Conquered the Xcube 2 at 160W too. I am now happy. I could not manage 5 seconds on the Xcube, it was too hot, 3 seconds was the maximum, but I am glad I have fully tested them.

Also, I checked the batteries throughout, they was about skin temperature. This was after 10 or so 3 second pulls at 160W, they are meant to be genuine sony VTC4's and appear to be, I bought them from a reputable shop in the UK that was recommended, so I do think the 2 sets of sony's are genuine that I own. The other 2 sets are 25R's. It was actually 25R's I used in the SIG 150 TC, but they were fully charged so it should not of overdrawn them.

But, that was bloody fun, I am going to set up the el cabron as my 'insane' tank from now on, the rest are all TC now, and I have lent my Velocity to a friend who got one of them Swomell mods I was talking about, he has ordered the same subtank 'clones' that I have that work perfectly, and would fool me.

I am not even sure if they are genuine and seconds that come out of the backdoor, as a person working in China would probably make more than he earns in a week by supplying out the back seconds to a company such as fasttech.

 

[robot zombie]

yes sir! this is a bad picture but im using triple parallel 28awg A1 3mm ID and "6" wraps (i think lol i wont count because its a p.i.t.a on a triple parallel) and its running at .2 ohms and chucks a coolish/warmish (makes sense, right?) vape. i run it at 100w on my sig only becauseView attachment 29914 my mod doesn't go higher!

Triple parallel 28g is an all time favorite of mine. Kicks out some bitchin flavor and vapor. It has a unique density and throat hit profile. Very smooth and lush with a transient kick to it that never overpowers. I think I know what you mean by coolish/warmish. Warm on the inhale, cool on the exhale.

 

[conanthewarrior]

basically:

parallel allows you to increase surface area while retaining the same resistance as a single strand.

dragon coils are nano coils (no wicking inside, 1mm or so ID) that are set on and angle, with all but one end covered with wicking (think of it as an exhaust port if that helps you visualize) usually done as a dual but ive seen quads. they look like a dragon blowing smoke out of its nostrils. they look cool, and chuck vapor but arent an every day thing, at least for me.

Ahh I remember dragon coils now, you curl the wick around the top of the atty back to the coil, it's called a dragon coil due to the tail.

But, I am probably wrong here, but I always thought that wider coils=possibility to go higher in watts without the potential of a burnt hit? Or am I completely wrong there?

 

[conanthewarrior]

Triple parallel 28g is an all time favorite of mine. Kicks out some bitchin flavor and vapor. It has a unique density and throat hit profile. Very smooth and lush with a transient kick to it that never overpowers. I think I know what you mean by coolish/warmish. Warm on the inhale, cool on the exhale.

I need to order some 28 gauge kanthal actually, and some 22, as I currently only have 24, 26, and 30 gauge, I did have 28 but used it all up.

I want to try a 28 gauge triple parralel build. What wattage do you find they work the best in, and are they suited to high wattage use? Are they best suited to smaller coil size, or larger?

I tried to use 24 Gauge to make a parralel coil, but it was too low of a resistance after 6 wraps, I must of made it wrong, hence me going through the coil basics again tommorow.

 

[robot zombie]

I need to order some 28 gauge kanthal actually, and some 22, as I currently only have 24, 26, and 30 gauge, I did have 28 but used it all up.

I want to try a 28 gauge triple parralel build. What wattage do you find they work the best in, and are they suited to high wattage use? Are they best suited to smaller coil size, or larger?

I tried to use 24 Gauge to make a parralel coil, but it was too low of a resistance after 6 wraps, I must of made it wrong, hence me going through the coil basics again tommorow.

No, you did the dual parallel 24 right. It ohms out very low, like straight 22g. It just takes more than six wraps to hit a reasonable resistance.

28g triple parallels, I like at around 80 watts at the most, but they can be run lower than that because of how quickly they heat up or higher than that because of their surface area. I build mine to 7 wraps @ 2.5mm or 6 wraps @ 3mm. Macro is better for higher wattages. Micro is better for lower wattages.

 

[conanthewarrior]

No, you did the dual parallel 24 right. It ohms out very low, like straight 22g. It just takes more than six wraps to hit a reasonable resistance.

28g triple parallels, I like at around 80 watts at the most, but they can be run lower than that because of how quickly they heat up or higher than that because of their surface area. I build mine to 7 wraps @ 2.5mm or 6 wraps @ 3mm. Macro is better for higher wattages. Micro is better for lower wattages.

Ahh, thats what I had wrong, I thought the resistance did not change due to it being parallel FACEPALM lol.

Ahh that is pretty cool, I guess the resistance of a triple parralel is lowered then to get to 7 wraps for high wattage use? As I find to use high watts, it needs to be 0.1. If I build to 0.2, it is a dry hit within 2 seconds.

I will order some kanthal tomorrow in the gauges I need.

I had a bit more money than I thought I had, so ordered myself a beautiful copper mech called an angel, and also a mod that cost me £5 as it was 77% off, but I realised it is a hybrid top cap on that one, so I am a bit wary of using it.

I realised that the 25R's are good for 116 watts according to steam engine, using the regulated setting on there. I hope this did not cause much damage, as we know efest rates batteries at 35 AMP when they are 20 amp batteries, such as the newest 2900MAH 'In house' battery, that turned out to be a LG HG2. People use them up to their limit, so I guess I should be OK.

On top of that, seeing as they rate the batteries at 35 AMPS constant when they are really 20AMP, is venting a common issue or something I should be scared of?

I have thought into it before, but I always try to make sure I do not over draw my batteries, like with a 25R I build down to 0.3 in a mech maximum so not to overdraw.

 

[TRAPstar]

Ahh I remember dragon coils now, you curl the wick around the top of the atty back to the coil, it's called a dragon coil due to the tail.

But, I am probably wrong here, but I always thought that wider coils=possibility to go higher in watts without the potential of a burnt hit? Or am I completely wrong there?

you are correct, same wattage split over a bigger area so you are heating more area. think of two identical frying pans with the same food on two burners, one small, one large, set at the same temp (high). both burners put out the same heat, right? yes, but the food in the pan with the smaller burner will cook/burn faster, and in one spot (center on pan) where the pan on the larger coil will disperse the same amount of heat over a larger area cooking all the food rather than just the middle.

not sure if this comparison helps (my mind works different, like Einsteins...weird comparisons always help me lol) but im trying to make thing easy to understand in real world terms instead of mathematical algorithms and thermal transference laws.

 

[TRAPstar]

I need to order some 28 gauge kanthal actually, and some 22, as I currently only have 24, 26, and 30 gauge, I did have 28 but used it all up.

I want to try a 28 gauge triple parralel build. What wattage do you find they work the best in, and are they suited to high wattage use? Are they best suited to smaller coil size, or larger?

I tried to use 24 Gauge to make a parralel coil, but it was too low of a resistance after 6 wraps, I must of made it wrong, hence me going through the coil basics again tommorow.

also when people say 6 wraps when doing parallel remember that its 6X# of strands. so 6 wraps on a triple will really be 18 wraps (not counting outside half wraps)

 

[TRAPstar]

Ahh, thats what I had wrong, I thought the resistance did not change due to it being parallel FACEPALM lol.

Ahh that is pretty cool, I guess the resistance of a triple parralel is lowered then to get to 7 wraps for high wattage use? As I find to use high watts, it needs to be 0.1. If I build to 0.2, it is a dry hit within 2 seconds.

I will order some kanthal tomorrow in the gauges I need.

I had a bit more money than I thought I had, so ordered myself a beautiful copper mech called an angel, and also a mod that cost me £5 as it was 77% off, but I realised it is a hybrid top cap on that one, so I am a bit wary of using it.

I realised that the 25R's are good for 116 watts according to steam engine, using the regulated setting on there. I hope this did not cause much damage, as we know efest rates batteries at 35 AMP when they are 20 amp batteries, such as the newest 2900MAH 'In house' battery, that turned out to be a LG HG4. People use them up to their limit, so I guess I should be OK.

On top of that, seeing as they rate the batteries at 35 AMPS constant when they are really 20AMP, is venting a common issue or something I should be scared of?

I have thought into it before, but I always try to make sure I do not over draw my batteries, like with a 25R I build down to 0.3 in a mech maximum so not to overdraw.

that is the constant rating and yes, fasttech and efest rewraps inflate these specs but as a vaper we use pulse specs which vary depending on pulse length, and obviously the battery used.

 

[conanthewarrior]

also when people say 6 wraps when doing parallel remember that its 6X# of strands. so 6 wraps on a triple will really be 18 wraps (not counting outside half wraps)

That is the one part that always gets me confused, the outside wraps, I never know if they count as a wrap or do not count as a wrap, but I get the resistance I want when I build, so must be doing it correctly I think.

 

[conanthewarrior]

that is the constant rating and yes, fasttech and efest rewraps inflate these specs but as a vaper we use pulse specs which vary depending on pulse length, and obviously the battery used.

Ahh, I was safe then due to the 25R's pulse rating. I get conflicting advice, some people say the pulse rating is fine, others say it should not be used as it is just a rating that the battery can take, but with quite bad damage, but not enough to blow up, I get confused as it is lol

 

[TRAPstar]

That is the one part that always gets me confused, the outside wraps, I never know if they count as a wrap or do not count as a wrap, but I get the resistance I want when I build, so must be doing it correctly I think.

use to mess with me too. they count as a half wrap, a lot of times people will say as an example "6/7 wraps" the first number (6) is the full wraps, the 2nd (7) is the extra wrap after adding in the 2 half wraps.

But remember resistance is determined by wire length, not wrap count.

 

[conanthewarrior]

use to mess with me too. they count as a half wrap, a lot of times people will say as an example "6/7 wraps" the first number (6) is the full wraps, the 2nd (7) is the extra wrap after adding in the 2 half wraps.

But remember resistance is determined by wire length, not wrap count.

You may find this hard to believe, but I never, ever knew that. I genuinely thought the resistance was to do with wraps, what a donut lol

And thanks for the 6/7 explanation, makes sense now

 

[robot zombie]

Ahh that is pretty cool, I guess the resistance of a triple parralel is lowered then to get to 7 wraps for high wattage use? As I find to use high watts, it needs to be 0.1. If I build to 0.2, it is a dry hit within 2 seconds.

Really? It tends to be the other way around in my experience. I think it really all comes down to diameter and wicking efficiency. With higher surface area coils, it's especially important that the wicks are able to continually supply that larger surface with enough juice. But yeah, the resistance on a that triple parallel 28 is going to fall around .2.

not sure if this comparison helps (my mind works different, like Einsteins...weird comparisons always help me lol) but im trying to make thing easy to understand in real world terms instead of mathematical algorithms and thermal transference laws.

Eh, makes perfect sense over here. Though I'm a weirdo, too.

 

[TRAPstar]

You may find this hard to believe, but I never, ever knew that. I genuinely thought the resistance was to do with wraps, what a donut lol

And thanks for the 6/7 explanation, makes sense now

As did i many moons ago, but the resistance is determined by the length of the material used (wire) and varies by metal composition, thickness, and temperature...yup temperature! the resistance raises as the metal heats depending on the metal type.

wire makers release the static resistance per length (usually inch or meter) @ 70 degrees Fahrenheit (or the respective Celsius for our friends across the pond) basically measuring the resistance at room temp. they also provide the temp vs resistance coefficient, basically how much the resistance goes up per X number of degrees.

 

[TRAPstar]

Really? It tends to be the other way around in my experience. I think it really all comes down to diameter and wicking efficiency. With higher surface area coils, it's especially important that the wicks are able to continually supply that larger surface with enough juice. But yeah, the resistance on a that triple parallel 28 is going to fall around .2.


Eh, makes perfect sense over here. Though I'm a weirdo, too.

birds of a feather, my friend

 

[conanthewarrior]

Really? It tends to be the other way around in my experience. I think it really all comes down to diameter and wicking efficiency. With higher surface area coils, it's especially important that the wicks are able to continually supply that larger surface with enough juice. But yeah, the resistance on a that triple parallel 28 is going to fall around .2.


Eh, makes perfect sense over here. Though I'm a weirdo, too.

Hmm that is very odd. Maybe its because I generally make standard coils, if I made parallel or triple parallel it could be the same as you, and 0.2 is fine for higher watts.

I just checked the official samsung spec sheet for the 25R, it smokes at TWO HUNDRED degrees celscius, that is twice the boiling point of water, and on the charts was safe to 106C, that amazed me. My batteries have never even approached this temperature, and at the bottom of the page they had a 1-5 rating of danger, starting with leak, smoke, more smoke, level 4 was fire, and level 5 was explosion. I am pretty sure that I am safe from that as my batteries will never get to near 200C, I would not be able to hold the device at even 70C, so I feel a lot safer now.

I am sodding the sonys seeking out genuines and sticking with the 25R's for future purchases.

 

[TRAPstar]

generally IMR batteries are safe, even when they vent its usually minor if caught in time. what is the big "killer" is something called thermal runaway (think Chernobyl meltdown) and IMRs are pretty safe against that but ANY battery is dangerous by design (a thin metal tube full of chemicals and acid).

what ive always heard is just dont be stupid, and dont go below 0.1 ohms!

 

[robot zombie]

Hmm that is very odd. Maybe its because I generally make standard coils, if I made parallel or triple parallel it could be the same as you, and 0.2 is fine for higher watts.

Quite possibly. I mean, I can see how you would be experiencing that, since the lower surface area intrinsically burns through less juice. The two ways of preventing dry hits are either cutting surface area or improving wicking efficiency.

But that is to say that it could also have to do with airflow, wicking material, as well as the amount and density. All of those are factors in wicking efficiency. You may just need to do some tinkering with your wicking and positioning of your coils. I run my standards a little towards the top of the airflow intake to let me squeeze a little extra length in without having to make the cotton too fat. I also mount my coils as far out as I can... ...maybe a mm away from the intake. They wick faster with more direct airflow. Right now, I'm running a dual .21 22g this way at 110w with no problems taking 5 second drags (though that's an excessively long drag imo.) I only get dry hits when my cotton is completely dry. I do have to re-drip every 3-4 hits though lol.

 

[TRAPstar]

also make sure you match up your airflow holes with the coils so its directly cooling the coils

Coil | <air= | air holes

if that makes any sens lol

being OCD it sucks because the logo on most of my RDAs are off center (dont lne up) with the logo on my mech and sig....sounds crazy but it bothers me lol

 

[robot zombie]

being OCD it sucks because the logo on most of my RDAs are off center (dont lne up) with the logo on my mech and sig....sounds crazy but it bothers me lol

Agh, I hate that too. Most my atties sit with the airflow like 15-20 degrees off center and it bugs me to no end. The only one that lines up perfect is my troll, though it sits with the airholes pointed north-south, so spit-back gets all over the top of my sigelei. -.-

 

[TRAPstar]

Agh, I hate that too. Most my atties sit with the airflow like 15-20 degrees off center and it bugs me to no end. The only one that lines up perfect is my troll, though it sits with the airholes pointed north-south, so spit-back gets all over the top of my sigelei. -.-

DUDE! i thought that was just me...

 

[TRAPstar]

My STRO is the only one i have that lines up with the air flow E/W but it has side and bottom air flow so its even more messy

 

[robot zombie]

My STRO is the only one i have that lines up with the air flow E/W but it has side and bottom air flow so its even more messy

Haha yeah, I feel your pain.

I'm seriously thinking about buying a Sapor as a dedicated box atty and just being done with it.

Also, getting back on topic. Since you have 26, why not try a dual twisted 26 for a high-ish wattage vape?

Another thing I neglected to mention, the little heat flux calculator in steam engine really comes in handy for determining what wattage levels you can run a build at. Use it. For high-wattage builds, you wanna keep it on the low side. Lower than you would think. Never go into the red. Even orange is iffy.

 

[TRAPstar]

Haha yeah, I feel your pain.

I'm seriously thinking about buying a Sapor as a dedicated box atty and just being done with it.

Also, getting back on topic. Since you have 26, why not try a dual twisted 26 for a high-ish wattage vape?

Another thing I neglected to mention, the little heat flux calculator in steam engine really comes in handy for determining what wattage levels you can run a build at. Use it. For high-wattage builds, you wanna keep it on the low side. Lower than you would think.

heat flux! yes finally somebody else pays attention to that as well. i was going to mention it earlier but the wife dragged me away from the computer...

apparently women like this thing called "attention", huh who knew?

 

[robot zombie]

heat flux! yes finally somebody else pays attention to that as well. i was going to mention it earlier but the wife dragged me away from the computer...

At least you have a good excuse. I just forgot. And I've been doing it the whole time I've been working up builds for the sig150. Some of the one's I mentioned here, I didn't because they were examples meant to be tweaked with to find a sweet spot, but that's something I just ALWAYS do when building time rolls around.

That number is perhaps the most important one to consider when building for regulated devices, much more so than resistance. It's how much heat transfer you can get, watt over total surface area. Higher transfer of wattage to surface area means higher overall temperature.

That's what I wasn't understanding about how you weren't getting dry hits with a .1 but were with a .2. A .2 would have less heat flux and thus reach lower temperatures overall, unless we're talking about two builds done with different guages, but that demonstrates how only looking at resistance can be misleading. For instance, a dual 24 at .3 and 100w has a heat flux of 368mW/mm², which is SCORCHING hot, while a dual 22 at .3 and 100w has a heat flux of 275mW/mm², which is very warm. A dual 24 at .12 and 100w packs a whopping 998mw/mm². Good for use as a pocket ignition device. And just for the hell of it, a 28g dual triple-parallel at .22 and 100w is 224mW/mm², which is only slightly less warm than the .3 dual 22.

apparently women like this thing called "attention", huh who knew?

Hard to tell sometimes. Fail to pick up on a moment of coy subtlety and they will internalize it forever until one day, maybe months later they're mad at you and it was because of that one moment and you just have no idea what's going on or why this is happening.

 

[TRAPstar]

i have a folder an inch thick in my drawer all about ohms law, and battery/wire length/resistance algorithms (i took a few of my adderalls and decided "hey its time to study") lets just say the wife wasnt happy with my 6 hour vape research lol.

anyways id say everyone should literally study ohms law at least, take notes...it helps.

i swear if Steam engine, vapers tool box, or all of the other coil calculators went down tomorrow half of the vapers in the world would be lost (no offence, i was one of them at one point too)

 

[conanthewarrior]

i have a folder an inch thick in my drawer all about ohms law, and battery/wire length/resistance algorithms (i took a few of my adderalls and decided "hey its time to study") lets just say the wife wasnt happy with my 6 hour vape research lol.

anyways id say everyone should literally study ohms law at least, take notes...it helps.

i swear if Steam engine, vapers tool box, or all of the other coil calculators went down tomorrow half of the vapers in the world would be lost (no offence, i was one of them at one point too)

In all honesty, if they went down, I would be half lost. I know how many wraps for regular coils and diameter, but if you said to me make a 2.25MM coil for instance, I would be lost on how many wraps. But I remember that resistance is determined by wire length, not wraps, which I learned last night thanks to you guys , so I should be OK.

I am being totally honest now, I do not remember ohms law. I am brain damaged, but I can remember things if I REALLY ingrain it and study it, I think that is one thing I should definitely do. It is just with all the calculators out there, and wanting to vape, I used them all the time.

Here is some data on the 25R that I found really interesting, especially the bottom. https://www.powerstream.com/p/INR18650-25R-datasheet.pdf

It has to hit over 200C before it is in danger of fire, that is a insane amount of temperature that my batteries have never come close to.

It also stated all the specifics of the 25R, the last stage after fire is explosion, but to get to that stage it needs massive, massive abuse, for instance they tested it in an oven at 140C and the damage was level 1, which was a leak, also crush tests were level 1, also dead shorts resulted in level 1 malfunction, which is a leak, so I feel safer knowing they will most likely just vent out liquid instead of actually exploding lol.

Atties that don't line up piss me off to the max too, my mad hatter mini when open for single airflow faces directly at me, taunting me, as if I want dual airflow, it sits to the side, laughing at me lol.

I wanted to ask a question about wicking.

When I wick my coils, I take the cotton, and roll it between my fingers at one end. I remove cotton untill it will go through snugly, not super tight, but not loose either, is that the correct way to wick? I leave enough tail on both ends to tuck underneath the coil, so it kind of makes a circle of cotton, with the bottom sitting in the juice well.

Ahh, airflow. I am using the Mutation Xv4 at the moment, and I prefer it with the airholes on the bottom shut off, but that leads to the airflow being at a slight angle to the coils. Would I be better off having it wide open, but with the airflow holes on the side directly in touch with the coils?

Thats what I like about my el cabron and velocity, the air holes just being on the side allow me to line them up perfectly well

 

[robot zombie]

Wicking sounds about right. Might be a little long, leg-wise.

Ahh, airflow. I am using the Mutation Xv4 at the moment, and I prefer it with the airholes on the bottom shut off, but that leads to the airflow being at a slight angle to the coils. Would I be better off having it wide open, but with the airflow holes on the side directly in touch with the coils?

With the Mutation X v4 I like to have my coils the same distance from both bottom and side intake. I use the center post as my guide, height-wise. The top of the coil should be about even with the top of that. I use the screws for 3mm and up. The bottom airflow holes help a lot for high-wattage,

i have a folder an inch thick in my drawer all about ohms law, and battery/wire length/resistance algorithms (i took a few of my adderalls and decided "hey its time to study") lets just say the wife wasnt happy with my 6 hour vape research lol.

Oh adderall, I miss having a prescription for those sometimes... ...only sometimes. Now instead of addies, I only fuck with atties. Eats up about the same amount of time on pointless, repetitive tasks, I suppose.

i swear if Steam engine, vapers tool box, or all of the other coil calculators went down tomorrow half of the vapers in the world would be lost (no offence, i was one of them at one point too)

Haha, probably. I feel like I could intuit most things well enough to get the results I want from a build. I can rattle off the numbers from memory. I mostly like using those tools because I like my builds to be perfectly on-point. A lot of times, I can guess what a build will read out to and that's what it winds up calculating out to. I think if you just go through the process enough times, working out the numbers becomes second nature.

 

[TRAPstar]

28 gauge kanthal has a resistance of 0.44 ohms per inch for example, 24 is 0.512/inch, and do on. smaller gauge = lower and thicker = higer resistance.
Your wicking sounds about right but I cut my wicks so they are just touching the deck of the juice well.

Less = More in regards to wicking!

 

[conanthewarrior]

28 gauge kanthal has a resistance of 0.44 ohms per inch for example, 24 is 0.512/inch, and do on. smaller gauge = lower and thicker = higer resistance.
Your wicking sounds about right but I cut my wicks so they are just touching the deck of the juice well.

Less = More in regards to wicking!

Ahh, I may try your method then. The only exception to that rule I find is the lemo, that thing seems to work best when it is pretty packed out. But on my orchid, it is definitely less is more, I love it when it works, but it is a bugger to wick. I can't get 26G to work in it for some odd reason, during the week I will get some more 28 gauge as that seemed to work great in it, I am using 30 in it at the moment, dual coil, and it only needs minimal power with micro coils, but gives off a fantastic flavour.

A kind member on here actually shipped me the orchid, plus loads of juices, all the way from the US to the UK, called Bondo. Speaking to him, hes a genuine nice guy, and he said he had put a surprise in for me, which was the tank. I couldn't believe how kind that was, it was near 30 dollars to ship all that stuff, and we have never even met face to face. I actually class him as a friend from across the pond as we get on very well .

 

[TRAPstar]

Ahh, I may try your method then. The only exception to that rule I find is the lemo, that thing seems to work best when it is pretty packed out. But on my orchid, it is definitely less is more, I love it when it works, but it is a bugger to wick. I can't get 26G to work in it for some odd reason, during the week I will get some more 28 gauge as that seemed to work great in it, I am using 30 in it at the moment, dual coil, and it only needs minimal power with micro coils, but gives off a fantastic flavour.

A kind member on here actually shipped me the orchid, plus loads of juices, all the way from the US to the UK, called Bondo. Speaking to him, hes a genuine nice guy, and he said he had put a surprise in for me, which was the tank. I couldn't believe how kind that was, it was near 30 dollars to ship all that stuff, and we have never even met face to face. I actually class him as a friend from across the pond as we get on very well .

(vape)pen pals! oh im so punny...

but on a serious note thats why i love the vaping community, we are all looking out for each other!

the older RBA i have (a Kaiser) works best with a dense(ish) wicking due to the juice hole design.

 

[nabibrian]

Great conversation on this thread.
Thanks!!

 

[conanthewarrior]

honestly most people i know vape around 75-100 watts if not lower anyways, that is unless cloud chasing.

Really? I use 100 watts FOR cloud chasing lol, but now I am building correctly, I actually used my Xcube and sig150TC at 145W, I only had 24 gauge, think it was 8 wraps a side for 0.3. Before that it was a 0.8 build, and when I connected to my phone, even when the Xcube was set to 160W, it would only put out 65W. The 0.3 build allowed 145W maximum, with the Xcube set to 160, at 6.9 volts.

The sig may of hit 150 as it was displaying 7.5V, but if that was correct or not I have no way of knowing lol.

I have lent a dripper to a friend who I got into vaping as he had no tank or dripper, so I lent him my velocity. When I have that back, I can just leave either that or the el cabron set up at 0.2-0.3 with enough wraps so when I fancy a full cloud chucking session, I can do it.

Would it be worth getting some 22 gauge to allow more wraps, thus even heat flow, that wont set fire to my wicks at 0.2 or 0.1 for full power?(Yes, I have managed that a couple of times being silly)

 

[conanthewarrior]

I've been playing around with the same box you've got lately, and I've also noticed that it seems to hit harder than expected for the wattage. I don't have a whole lot of experience with it, but I've made a few observations across the 20 or so different builds I've done specifically for it over this past week or so.

Tiny coils are a no-go. It's not about the resistance so much as it is the surface area. Big, macro-diameter coils that can hold lots of wick are a good way to go for maxing it.

With dual 24's, I find the highest I'm willing to go is about 80 watts, give or take 10. I've been liking to stay between .37 and .45, so 9-12 wraps @ 3mm. I find that if I go much lower, I can't run them past 3.9v without scorching juice. High-surface-area dual 24's seem to perform very nicely between 70 and 90 watts. The flavor is very much there and the vapor production is definitely getting up there. I initially tried a .27 dual that was 7 wraps @ 2.5mm as something I could use on either a mech or the sig. It did well at around 65 watts, but not nearly as well as the aforementioned.

If you really wanna max it out, then I'd recommend dropping a dual 22g in something with lots of airflow. Maybe something like 10 or 11 wraps @ 3mm. A wrap less @ 3.5mm might be even better with how much juice it rips through. That should put you in the ballpark of .3. Running it at the full 150w will nuke a good bit of the flavor and wicking only keeps up for maybe 7 seconds before it runs dry, but it does indeed chuck with much shorter pulls and the temperature is surprisingly bearable. It performs much better at 100w to 125w, but I imagine you're only looking for something that CAN be run at 150w, not something that will ONLY be run at 150w.

You could also get there with dual-parallel 24's. I find those to be a little on the hot side, myself. You could probably shoot for the same resistance you would with 22g. Wouldn't run em at 150w, though.

Just what I've found works for me. Not sure how well these will work in your atties with your juice. I'm using ax VG juice. I'm sticking 24's in my mutations 22's in my troll. Adjust to space, juice, and airflow.

Ahh you answered my above question. I will get myself some 22 gauge, and yes, its something that I can run up to maximum, but also use around 80 watts or so if I wanted.

I will order some tommorow, as I don't own any 22G, only higher gauges.

I did manage 145 genuine watts today, as previously at 0.8 the xcube was putting out 65W even when set to 160, which is why there was not any difference in production between the 2. At the dual 0.3, it managed 145 watts set at 160W, at 6.9 volts, the 150TC displayed 7.5 volts so in theory should of hit the 150 watts, but I am not sure.

generally IMR batteries are safe, even when they vent its usually minor if caught in time. what is the big "killer" is something called thermal runaway (think Chernobyl meltdown) and IMRs are pretty safe against that but ANY battery is dangerous by design (a thin metal tube full of chemicals and acid).

what ive always heard is just dont be stupid, and dont go below 0.1 ohms!

Does this apply to TC mods? As I have been building for them at 0.08-9 ohms, and believed due to the TC function it worked entirely differently? My mods do not support standard kanthal under 0.1 anyway, which is a good thing lol.

I have watched batteries in thermal runaway,(on youtube of course, I am not that silly, I build to lowest 0.3 on my mechs), but with the 25R it would have to be stupendiously abused according to the samsung tests, say trying to pull 176W in a mech at 0.1 for this to happen lol, even a dead short only resulted in a leak, but there was level 5 explosion and thermal runaway was on the damage scale, but it never happened, all their stress tests resulted in level 1 failures, which was a leak/vent.

 

[robot zombie]

Would it be worth getting some 22 gauge to allow more wraps, thus even heat flow, that wont set fire to my wicks at 0.2 or 0.1 for full power?(Yes, I have managed that a couple of times being silly)

I dunno, a .1 is probably gonna get really hot at 150w. That's pretty close to its "native" voltage, but even on a mech, that would be pretty hot. This may sound crazy, but I still recommend a big-ass .3 dual 22 for a 150w vape. That, or a dual-parallel 24 - 8 or 9 wraps @ 3mm, which will hover around .2. Maybe try that in the meantime.

It's all about the surface area. Don't focus so much on resistance - think more about heat dispersal. Heat can be your friend or your enemy. It doesn't care as much about resistance as it does the amount of metal it has to traverse.

Does this apply to TC mods? As I have been building for them at 0.08-9 ohms, and believed due to the TC function it worked entirely differently

TC works like a simple sensing heating element. The reason it can work with nickel is because its resistance rises considerably alongside of temperature. That's how it knows the temperature of the coil. It's resistance will read "x" at "y" temperature. A nickel build below .1 should run above that once it reaches the minimum temperature range. That's the gist of it anyway.

 

[conanthewarrior]

I dunno, a .1 is probably gonna get really hot at 150w. That's pretty close to its "native" voltage, but even on a mech, that would be pretty hot. This may sound crazy, but I still recommend a big-ass .3 dual 22 for a 150w vape. That, or a dual-parallel 24 - 8 or 9 wraps @ 3mm, which will hover around .2. Maybe try that in the meantime.

It's all about the surface area. Don't focus so much on resistance - think more about heat dispersal. Heat can be your friend or your enemy. It doesn't care as much about resistance as it does the amount of metal it has to traverse.


TC works like a simple sensing heating element. The reason it can work with nickel is because its resistance rises considerably alongside of temperature. That's how it knows the temperature of the coil. It's resistance will read "x" at "y" temperature. A nickel build below .1 should run above that once it reaches the minimum temperature range. That's the gist of it anyway.

Ahh ok, I did do a 0.34 build with 24 gauge earlier, dual coil, with lots of area. It actually managed to acheive 145Watts as I checked with the Xcube app, and using the steam engine calculators it worked out correctly to be its 'limit'.

The only thing I could not understand, Is why the mods max out at 0.8 at 65W, with the voltage not at its highest. I was thinking surely if the mod upped the voltage, the watts would increase?

I found that a 0.2-3 build is where I will get 150-160W properly. The 0.3ish build managed 145 genuine watts, and was a bloody dragon compared to the 65 it was limited to before. My mum said I should get a job if the nightclubs fog machine breaks, she love the vapour, my grandfather does not, so I have put a draught excluder by my door, but it STILL manages to fog up my entire downstairs somehow.

I think I will go for the big ass 22 gauge build like you recommended, leave it set up on one of my RDA's for when I fancy some cloud chucking. This usually is every few days-weeks, most of the time I Vape tanks up to 30 watts (I know, I may be odd in that respect, but its what I like, and I find my tanks to be plenty flavourable, some more than my drippers!)

I will take your advice though, and thanks for helping me out. I always assumed on a regulated mod that you set the wattage, and it can drive that wattage, but I fully learned ohms law yesterday and realised it was not possible, it may display 160W but only be putting out 65W, as was happening to me.

I was thinking of getting a vicious ant clone. Expensive-ish, around £90, but it apparently does 260W like the original upstepped to 12 volts, so that would be a lovely device for the collection.

 

[conanthewarrior]

I dunno, a .1 is probably gonna get really hot at 150w. That's pretty close to its "native" voltage, but even on a mech, that would be pretty hot. This may sound crazy, but I still recommend a big-ass .3 dual 22 for a 150w vape. That, or a dual-parallel 24 - 8 or 9 wraps @ 3mm, which will hover around .2. Maybe try that in the meantime.

It's all about the surface area. Don't focus so much on resistance - think more about heat dispersal. Heat can be your friend or your enemy. It doesn't care as much about resistance as it does the amount of metal it has to traverse.


TC works like a simple sensing heating element. The reason it can work with nickel is because its resistance rises considerably alongside of temperature. That's how it knows the temperature of the coil. It's resistance will read "x" at "y" temperature. A nickel build below .1 should run above that once it reaches the minimum temperature range. That's the gist of it anyway.

Robot zombie (if you like to be called something different, let me know, I'm Conan BTW ), do you have any idea why it would not upstep any higher on a 0.8 Ohm build past 65W? I could increase the wattage, but I am pretty sure voltage stayed below 7 Volts. Why did it not push to the full 8 Volts the Xcube is capable off, thus offering a higher wattage?

That had me a little confused, if it can increase the voltage, when it was set to maximum why was it only putting out 6.9 Volts at around 65Watts?

I would estimate with the extra 1.1 volt, it would of hit around 80 or so watts, instead of 65W. Is it a protection thing, or to protect the batteries maybe? As I noticed even at 145W, none of my batteries got even warm, let alone hot.

I tried both sets of 25 r's, blue and green versions, and my 2 sets of 'sony vtc4's' one of which I am 100% certain are genuine, the second I was not 100%, but I do believe them to be now after not even getting warm providing that power, and I did it for a fair amount of time too, with 4-5 second pulls a time.

As the batteries are in series, not parallel, do they still share the Amp Load? I was thinking they would, as well, there is two of them in the circuit, if it was drawing 30 A from both batteries that would be more than the devices maximum output, which was 30A I believe for the Xcube, and 35A for the Sig150TC.

If it was not sharing the load and taking it from each individual battery, that would double the amps, which would be entirely wrong, so I am assuming they kind of take some of the load each of them, not as much as parrallel, but enough to make the devices safe to use at their maximum output.

 

[Number3124]

30 amps is all that is needed to achieve 150 watts.

Also, I don't know if it's too late or not, but I find twisted wire and claptons to work the best for higher wattages.

 

[robot zombie]

30 amps is all that is needed to achieve 150 watts.

Not even. A .35 at 7.25v generates 150w and pulls just over 20 amps.

Conan, that is very odd. I mean, it would take at least 10 volts to generate 150w from a .8 build, but it's baffling to me why the Xcube wouldn't run at the full 8 volts it's supposed to be capable of when you crank it regardless. It's not like the amp drain is super-high above 65w. Something is definitely wrong there. Perhaps the max voltage is dependent on your battery voltage.

I'm suggesting that maybe its "boost" circuitry is less efficient than it's "buck" circuitry. To boost voltage, you need more current than you sacrifice by cutting it. It's less power-efficient to bring voltage up than it is to divert it. It may not be able to boost the voltage up from where your batteries are naturally sitting under load without going over the current limit. Have you tried it with fresh batteries?

That's the only reason I can think of aside from a bug or physical malfunction.

As the batteries are in series, not parallel, do they still share the Amp Load? I was thinking they would, as well, there is two of them in the circuit,

Nope. The reason a parallel setup lessens the amp load is because two batteries are providing current independent of one another, but it all still has to travel down a shared pathway. Because they're pushing the same voltage, the current that's pulled from each one is halved. It's like adding a second on-ramp to a highway. Although cars now enter from two points, the limit for how many cars traveling at a given speed can occupy that highway doesn't change. If cars are entering from both on ramps at that same speed, then only half as many cars can enter the highway through either one.

It's the opposite of two coils wired in parallel. Say you build a .8 dual coil. Either coil still has a resistance of 1.6, but there are now two of them pulling the same amount of current, so the amp load doubles. You've essentially added a lane to the highway, so twice many cars can occupy it going at the same speed as before.

In series, both batteries push the same current twice as hard. It has an additive effect. If each battery gives up 4.2 amps at 4.2 volts, then together, they will push 8.4 volts for 8.4 amps. Two batteries in series thus have the capacity of one. The cars now enter and travel down the same highway at twice the speed, which means twice as many cars are passing through the same highway at any given time.

if it was drawing 30 A from both batteries that would be more than the devices maximum output, which was 30A I believe for the Xcube, and 35A for the Sig150TC.

Well yes, but you're neglecting to consider the fact that they don't need to draw as much current to produce 150w.

It's got nothing to do with splitting the amp load. It's because they have more voltage pushing the energy along. Wattage increases at a higher rate than current as voltage goes up. If you run a 1 ohm coil at 4.2v, you're pulling 4.2 amps to generate around 17 watts of power. If you increase the voltage to 8.4 volts, the amperage also doubles to 8.4, but you're generating around 70 watts. They can do more than four times as much work with double the voltage for only twice as many amps. That's why the amperage is lower, watt for watt.

Also, I was under the impression that the Xcube II was a 20-amp device. Now that I look it up, I can't find the max discharge current anywhere. It's kind of spooky. In theory, it would still be able to hit 160w at .4, assuming it has decent efficiency. If that's the case, then marketing it as a true 160w device would be misleading. It would be a 150w device in practice.