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Ammit non-clapton flavour build for 30-35 watts
- Thread starter Fragility
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@CrazyChef i'm sure can build you some as well.
Yes more metal means more capacity for generating and holding heat. As with a bucket or a glass... the bigger one takes long to fill and empty.
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Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Did you manage to come up with anything? I'm resorting to trying clapton since I'm so dissatisfied with regular builds, but out of the 5 reels of clapton wire I have I don't think any are ideal for 30-35 watts.
Actually working on some now.
Coil Build: Twisted 26awg Nichrome N80(A) -- Spaced
Twist Pitch: 1.8mm
Target Resistance: .3ohm
Coil ID: 3mm
I used Nichrome so that it would give a little better ramp up time over Kanthal. The next option would be to do the same build using Stainless Steel. However, I think you would need to run it a little higher than 35w to get a good vape.
Cotton Lobo Strip cut at 10-11mm
Cut to length (just long enough to TOUCH the juice holes in the build deck), then tucked, and then juiced up with Buttermint Cookie Dough.
Installed on my Alien. Registering @ .333ohm and set to 35w.
Flavor Notes:
Typically, I am not able to taste the butter notes in this juice unless I am running a 28g/38 fused clapton at about 40-50w.
In this build, even at these temps, I was starting to get the butter flavor notes, even with the cool peppermint flavor that likes to take over.
IMO, this coil needs to be a little hotter, however I like my vape to be somewhat warm, but not hot. I don't like the drip tip getting hot and burning my lip. But I do like the vapor warm. While running this at 35w it felt "coolish warm".
You could take this coil up to a .5ohm coil by wrapping it at an 8/7 wrap. This may help with the warmth while keeping it a 35w.
Twist Pitch: 1.8mm
Target Resistance: .3ohm
Coil ID: 3mm
I used Nichrome so that it would give a little better ramp up time over Kanthal. The next option would be to do the same build using Stainless Steel. However, I think you would need to run it a little higher than 35w to get a good vape.
Cotton Lobo Strip cut at 10-11mm
Cut to length (just long enough to TOUCH the juice holes in the build deck), then tucked, and then juiced up with Buttermint Cookie Dough.
Installed on my Alien. Registering @ .333ohm and set to 35w.
Flavor Notes:
Typically, I am not able to taste the butter notes in this juice unless I am running a 28g/38 fused clapton at about 40-50w.
In this build, even at these temps, I was starting to get the butter flavor notes, even with the cool peppermint flavor that likes to take over.
IMO, this coil needs to be a little hotter, however I like my vape to be somewhat warm, but not hot. I don't like the drip tip getting hot and burning my lip. But I do like the vapor warm. While running this at 35w it felt "coolish warm".
You could take this coil up to a .5ohm coil by wrapping it at an 8/7 wrap. This may help with the warmth while keeping it a 35w.
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Thanks a lot, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. I don't mind a warm vape, I mostly vape dessert/non fruit based juices which probably benefit from extra heat. I usually aim for at least 180 heat flux with my builds.
How noticeable is the heat up of ni80 vs kanthal? According to here it's the same as kanthal http://deepvapors.com/ultimate-vaping-wire-types-options-guide/.
I may try and replicate the build with kanthal until I get my hands on some ni80. The best kanthal build i've tried so far was a 26ga twisted 5.5 wrap 3mm, the downside was that it tended to spit at 35 watts because it wasn't an instant ramp up. I haven't tried spaced twisted actually, in general would you say spaced builds vs contact builds with extra wraps provide more flavour? I've ruled out a simple 7/8 wrap contact kanthal which tasted of nothing, I have tried simple kanthal spaced in this tank, but I've tried so many builds that I honestly can't even remember how they performed.
I'm running a 9/10 wrap ss 3mm build at the moment, which is probably 2nd best to my 26ga twisted. I'll definitely be trying your build next.
Also, I have both puff and muji cotton, I've been using muji since it seems slightly more popular but do you have a perference? It tends to be more dense than puff so I cut my strips thinner.
How noticeable is the heat up of ni80 vs kanthal? According to here it's the same as kanthal http://deepvapors.com/ultimate-vaping-wire-types-options-guide/.
I may try and replicate the build with kanthal until I get my hands on some ni80. The best kanthal build i've tried so far was a 26ga twisted 5.5 wrap 3mm, the downside was that it tended to spit at 35 watts because it wasn't an instant ramp up. I haven't tried spaced twisted actually, in general would you say spaced builds vs contact builds with extra wraps provide more flavour? I've ruled out a simple 7/8 wrap contact kanthal which tasted of nothing, I have tried simple kanthal spaced in this tank, but I've tried so many builds that I honestly can't even remember how they performed.
I'm running a 9/10 wrap ss 3mm build at the moment, which is probably 2nd best to my 26ga twisted. I'll definitely be trying your build next.
Also, I have both puff and muji cotton, I've been using muji since it seems slightly more popular but do you have a perference? It tends to be more dense than puff so I cut my strips thinner.
I did not notice a major different.
This was my starting point for my testing as you said it was what you liked the best. I was trying to keep the build simple without jumping into the clapton world.
Personally, if you already have SS wire, I would stay there. SS [IMO] is better wire, cleaner, etc. Even when not running in TC mode. Again, 100% preference. What I didn't try yet, as I wasn't sure if you had SS wire or not, is a SS twisted 26g. But like I said before, the wire will probably take more wattage to heat up.
A twisted 26 SS using a 3mm ID will take about 63W to get it at the 180 heat index, according to steam-engine. I have found this to be somewhat inaccurate. Some builds will show a heat index that I like, yet burn the piss out of my mouth, so I drop the wattage down and all is good.
I've only used "Puffs" cotton lobo pads from Amazon. Price is hard to beat and the pads are large. I've never had an issue with the flavor of the cotton, give it a few toots on the billow and all I taste is my juice. I can fluff it out as well very easily. And if I want the cotton to come out really fluffy, I will do a Scottish role with it.
I've never found a purpose for paying for the expensive "vape" cotton bacon stuff. To expensive for my taste buds.
I am by far NOT an expert at coil builds ( yet
). I don't have enough experience with the types to answer this question.Ideally I'd like to be using just a simple contact or spaced build like I do in the serpent, as even twisted I find adds to juice consumption.
I just put in the same 4.5 wrap build with kanthal, I'll let you know how I get on. I also used puff and measured out the exact amount you did, which resulted in a looser fit in the coil than I would normally use. So far this seems to be working better - the vape is alot smoother than I usually get. No residual hiss after i've finished the vape which really bugs me, and very little spitback. Thanks for the tip.
I'm fairly experienced with simple builds, mostly due to how obsessive I am about coils/flavour and getting the most out of a build. Unfortunately I have trouble trusting my own judgements due to my personality, and I prefer to use a build that I've seen a few people using in a tank to stop me from thinking 'hmm the flavour seems muted, I'll have to rip this build out and try something else', which becomes just a real hassle after a while.
How did you have your airflow set with this build by the way? I'm used to the restrictedness of the serpent mini so i've been using it at just over 1 click closed.
I just put in the same 4.5 wrap build with kanthal, I'll let you know how I get on. I also used puff and measured out the exact amount you did, which resulted in a looser fit in the coil than I would normally use. So far this seems to be working better - the vape is alot smoother than I usually get. No residual hiss after i've finished the vape which really bugs me, and very little spitback. Thanks for the tip.
I am by far NOT an expert at coil builds ( yet
I'm fairly experienced with simple builds, mostly due to how obsessive I am about coils/flavour and getting the most out of a build. Unfortunately I have trouble trusting my own judgements due to my personality, and I prefer to use a build that I've seen a few people using in a tank to stop me from thinking 'hmm the flavour seems muted, I'll have to rip this build out and try something else', which becomes just a real hassle after a while.
How did you have your airflow set with this build by the way? I'm used to the restrictedness of the serpent mini so i've been using it at just over 1 click closed.
I'm more of a direct lung hit kind of guy. However, I have knocked it down to a MTL airflow. By design, the Ammit tank is already a restricted airflow compared to other tanks (ie Herakles RTA-2, Big Baby Beast, Baby Beast, and many more). Specific answer to your question -- I rock it wide open airflow.
I prefer restricted lung hits since I'm all about the most flavour for the least amount of juice consumption, MTL doesn't really do it for me. The serpent mini seems perfect but there are so many new tanks out there that I had to give them a go. I got a merlin mini which without the restrictor was way too airy for simples builds below 35 watts. I had to run that only at about 4mm open which Is why I assumed that the ammit needed closing down as well.
I've got the build up to 35 watts. The flavour is better than my ss build, but I had to use a different juice so I can't compare it to the 5.5 wrap contact spaced. It's lacking a bit of heat I feel, so I'm closing down the airflow a bit.
Putting the build into steam engine gives it a surface area of 136, where as a regular 7 wrap contact (non twisted) has 156. The spacing could make up for this though.
The juice consumption is a bit more than the ss build. I'm tempted to try a non twisted spaced build again just to see how much the flavour is affected.
Putting the build into steam engine gives it a surface area of 136, where as a regular 7 wrap contact (non twisted) has 156. The spacing could make up for this though.
The juice consumption is a bit more than the ss build. I'm tempted to try a non twisted spaced build again just to see how much the flavour is affected.
Update - had the same juice in with your build (in kanthal) vs my original 5.5 wrap contact and I'm getting slightly better flavour from yours, so congratulations! I'm interested in the differences between this build in ni80 vs kanthal, and also trying the other build in ni80 (that amount of wraps in kanthal would take too long to heat up at 35w). Like what I was saying previously, ni80 has nearly double the ramp up time in steam engine just like ss, but you haven't found this to be the case? I can't see any benefit to ni80 other than resistance if it didn't heat up faster. Why do you say the same build in ss might require a higher wattage?
I also might try the same juice in my serpent mini just to see how it compares.
I also might try the same juice in my serpent mini just to see how it compares.
I just put in the 4.5 wrap build with twisted ni80, mine came out at 0.41 so I may need to reduce the pitch a bit, since i'm assuming this will affect the heat flux. I'd say it's an improvement over the same build in kanthal. I'm looking forward to trying more builds in ni80, in theory it should be better than kanthal for most builds since it's lower resistance/faster heat up.
When you say it might help with the warmth, do you mean reducing or increasing? More mass i'd assume a cooler vape, but after vaping on a few claptons recently I'm starting to conclude that a bigger build/more wraps could increase the heat from the vape due to the extra mass?
Thanks again for recommending this build, I'm planning on trying the other one next.
When you say it might help with the warmth, do you mean reducing or increasing? More mass i'd assume a cooler vape, but after vaping on a few claptons recently I'm starting to conclude that a bigger build/more wraps could increase the heat from the vape due to the extra mass?
Thanks again for recommending this build, I'm planning on trying the other one next.
You can do regular Clapton builds..Its those fused claptons and all the other "Clapton builds" that require a lot of power to heat up...If you can find a 28g wrapped in 36g it should work well with a 30 to 40 watt power range...I use a home made single core 28g wrapped in 36g in my billow v2 and it works great even below 30 watts.
I think even a fused 28x2/38 would work at 35 watts, but it's also the juice consumption i'm concerned with. I've actually just got my hands on some free 34ga ni80 & 33ga ss, so I may try making some single wire clapton out of that. At the moment I'm lacking any kind of spinning attachment to hold the wire on the other end of the drill, so I've been looking at the coilmaster 318.
I purchased some Mustad ball bearing swivels from walmart that are working just great so far...I also bought a wooden stake from walmart and even an 18v drill for $18.00 as well as some small picture hanging nails and a small c clamp to attach it to a counter..In all I have less than $30.00 invested in everything needed to make my own claptons.
Just to go back to the two builds you recommended.
I tried the 4.5 wrap spaced in kanthal like I said and it was working well. I just got some ni80 and tried that both with your 4.5 wrap and my 6.5 wrap contact - of which I was having trouble with instant ramp up at 35 watts using kanthal. I'm noticing that the ni80 4.5 is spitting a lot more than the kanthal build, although this could be due to a slight difference in wicking. But since the ramp up on the 4.5 is sufficient with kanthal, is there any reason to use ni80 with this build? Would it give a warmer vape? (even though steam engine says it won't).
I've yet to try the 7/8 wrap build, but i'm interested in the fact that you said it performs better at 35 watts than the 4.5. Surely the extra mass would mean it would require more heat than the 4.5? How is the ramp up at 35 watts? I'm concerned about spitting which can result from the coil not heating up instantly.
Also, as someone who also uses puff pads, i'm interested in your thoughts on the amount of cotton you're using. The consensus seems to be 2x the id of the coil, but you were using 11mm? I've been playing around between 7-11mm/varying degrees of tightness in the coil but can't really decide (like most things) on a sweet spot for flavour and eliminating spitback.
Sorry for the barrage of questions, I have a rather obsessive nature when it comes to building, as you can probably tell.
If you aren't low ohms crazy; a simple 28g 7 to 8 wrap will give you a lot of surface area for flavor and not have much of a ramp up time if any at all with 35watts...ive had some really great chilled and laid back vapes above 1 ohm...I doubt you would use 35 watts though above 1 ohm..Maybe more like 15 to 25 watts max...Today its all about super low ohms and gobs of wattage but in reality you don't have to take that route to get a good vape.
Ohms are irrelevant since I'm using a regulated mod. I'm assuming you mean twisted 28ga? In regards to ramp up time, I was referring to my twisted build specifically. I'm just after the most flavour at the 30-35 wattage range, preferably without claptons.
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Clapton coils have more wire mass, so yes, they will get "warmer". The time the "warmth" stays around depends on the type of wire used. Some wire types heat and cool faster than others.
So, re-reading through this long thread, I think you might be hung up on the keeping it at 30-35 watts and trying to find the "just perfect vape".
* Each wire type will require a different wattage based on what "feels" good to you and tastes good to you.
* No two people will be exactly the same. Knowing that, what works best for me may not work best for you. It is all preferential. My personal preferred coil is this specific atty is a Clapton coil or a Fused Clapton coil. I typically do not run twisted wire coils. IMO, they are sub-par to a good tight spun Clapton coil.
* Each wire type will require a different wattage based on what "feels" good to you and tastes good to you.
* No two people will be exactly the same. Knowing that, what works best for me may not work best for you. It is all preferential. My personal preferred coil is this specific atty is a Clapton coil or a Fused Clapton coil. I typically do not run twisted wire coils. IMO, they are sub-par to a good tight spun Clapton coil.
I know I probably come across as pedantic, but I'm so obsessive when it comes to vaping/building due to my personality. I come to the point where I'm just so sick of changing builds constantly, which impedes my own judgement of what I've tried in the past, that I just look for posts (from multiple people preferably) saying 'i'm happy with x at y wattage' and go with that. If I were to use a clapton I would constantly be thinking 'hmm I wonder if I can still get substantial flavour by using less juice with a different build at a lower wattage'. I appreciate all the input you've given.
Twisted is the next level up flavor wise from standard micro coils or spaced coils....I fully agree taste is subjective but, in general twisted adds flavor over a basic coil as claptons add flavor over twisted...I still use a good twisted 28g and sometimes a twisted 30g with some of my tanks and have good results flavor wise.
There is a thread going around today about "how often do you change coils" ... my response to that thread is going to be "daily" because I don't have a single "one" that is "perfect". I'm still in my beginning stages of vaping and am enjoying just "building" and learning new things. Every day I am doing something different and using something different. I don't have "one" juice that I use or one atty.
Something else you might consider. Purchase another Identical atty (Ammit, Merlin, etc) and do a build in it that is just a little different than the other atty. Then vape them side by side. Decide which one is the "better" of the two. Then do it again and again and again. You will eventually find "the one".
Vape On and Vape Strong! Every day is a new day and a new challenge. Every day is a day to learn something new!
I'm always in a bind with my Griffen 25 Plus and Ammit. Love the dual coil and Griffen so much but damn this thing guzzles the juice in a 5ml tank. Ever since I got my Therion 166 vaping has been amazing. I use both RTAs in TC with SS316. I can chain vape the shit out of them no matter how I wick them. The Ammit has been on another level now when I use it in TC mode on the DNA. When I used TC mode on my Alien Mod it wasn't good at all.
Have the best of both worlds now with these tanks. Just don't have the time for DIY juice. I'm probably going though 20ml Plus a day on the Griffen. Might start dripping again and see how it compares with consumption. Ammit has been amazing now just like the dual coil setup more I think.
Have the best of both worlds now with these tanks. Just don't have the time for DIY juice. I'm probably going though 20ml Plus a day on the Griffen. Might start dripping again and see how it compares with consumption. Ammit has been amazing now just like the dual coil setup more I think.
Sorry for bringing up an old thread. I've been using your 7/8 wrap coil in my ammit and using it as the basis for experimenting with coils for some of my other atomisers recently (merlin, single coil goon). One thing you said that didn't make sense to me at the time was that the extra wraps would help with heat over the 4.5 wrap. I assumed that more wraps and therefore a lower heatflux would result in a cooler vape so I never gave it a try. I now know that you were referring to the extra heat provided by more mass of wire which I never considered. I guess this is why claptons have a very low heat flux compared to microcoils but still produce a warmer vape. Using ni80 over kanthal means that ramp up doesn't become an issue at the lower wattages I prefer to vape at, so this kind of coil seems perfect for me. You've changed my perception of what steam engine parameters to look for when building a coil - a 200 heatflux 6.5 wrap 24ga coil that I was using obviously lacks in surface area and wont necessarily make up for it in heat (and therefore flavour, as I was assuming) when comparing it to the twisted coil. So thanks for the insight.
I had a few questions regarding this coil. I don't suppose you have any other pictures giving a better view of how you positioned it in the ammit? I'm struggling to find the right balance between the bottom and side airflow, i'm tending to move it further back so I can get the coil lower but without the side airflow missing the coil. Spitback is also a bit of a pain - did you experience this when you were using it?
Also, was there a reason why you went with 1.8mm twist pitch as opposed to 1mm or below? That seems to be the region where the surface area/ohms increase kicks in, and from what i've tried (around a 1mm), doesn't affect the ramp up too much - although this was in an RDA.
Sorry for the wall of text
Would anyone be able to shed any insight on this heat flux vs heat capacity thing? I know it's quite an in depth aspect of a coil that most people probably don't think about.
We all know that heat capacity is a measure of how fast a coil heats up, but if im understanding correctly, once it has reached its temperature, heat capacity is also a measure how much heat the coil can hold/produce, and therefore is a reflection of how warm the vape is?
In my other ammit I'm toying between two builds - 24ga kanthal 6.5 wrap 3mm, and 24 ga ni80 9.5 wrap 3mm. Since ni80 heats up faster than kanthal, if there is no delay in the ramp up at 30 watts, how would they compare in terms of heat at this same wattage? The ni80 build would obviously be preferable as it has more surface area, but what I'm trying to establish is would the extra mass producing heat make up for the reduction in heat flux?
In a similar way, claptons have a very low heat flux per watt - usually around 1.5, but yet are usually vaped at 40-60w which results in a very low heat flux in steam engine, but with the amount of mass in reality still produces a warm vape.
I hope I'm making sense here.
We all know that heat capacity is a measure of how fast a coil heats up, but if im understanding correctly, once it has reached its temperature, heat capacity is also a measure how much heat the coil can hold/produce, and therefore is a reflection of how warm the vape is?
In my other ammit I'm toying between two builds - 24ga kanthal 6.5 wrap 3mm, and 24 ga ni80 9.5 wrap 3mm. Since ni80 heats up faster than kanthal, if there is no delay in the ramp up at 30 watts, how would they compare in terms of heat at this same wattage? The ni80 build would obviously be preferable as it has more surface area, but what I'm trying to establish is would the extra mass producing heat make up for the reduction in heat flux?
In a similar way, claptons have a very low heat flux per watt - usually around 1.5, but yet are usually vaped at 40-60w which results in a very low heat flux in steam engine, but with the amount of mass in reality still produces a warm vape.
I hope I'm making sense here.
Heat flux represents potential surface heat.... Heat Capacity is how the heat is used.
HIGHER FLUX LOW CAP COIL CAN BE COLDER THAT A LOW FLUX HIGHER CAP COIL.
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HIGHER FLUX LOW CAP COIL CAN BE COLDER THAT A LOW FLUX HIGHER CAP COIL.
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Yeah that's the aspect that I'm only just starting to understand. I always assumed that a low heat flux would result in a cold and flavourless vape.
Heat flux must still be important as I'm finding that I'm getting better flavour out of a 6.5 wrap 24ga coil than a twisted 26ga 7.5 wrap at 35 watts. But then this leads me to think to myself 'should I go to 7.5 wraps with the 24ga build', it would obviously reduce the heat flux but improve the surface area. If only there was some equation for determining the optimum parameters for a certain wattage..
Building a good vape is about balance.... cause and affect... yin and yang.......
Getting maximum clouds or even flavor is easy... make big coil add lots of power...... turning that into an enjoyable vape requires finesse and balance.
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Getting maximum clouds or even flavor is easy... make big coil add lots of power...... turning that into an enjoyable vape requires finesse and balance.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
Getting the optimum flavour for a lower wattage is what I'm trying to achieve. I guess that's the challenge of it.
On that premise, if I wanted a basic coil to use at 30-35 watts and using a simple build for easy comparison, would there be any reason to use a 6.5 wrap 24ga/3mm over a 7.5 wrap? I'm torn between the two currently.
You an other than personal preference..... no..
Fact Is where best vs worse is concerned. There is no wrong choice.
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Can these be used in other tanks?
I have 28k fused coming. Excited to try.
I am overall not very pleased with the flavor on the Ammit. Seems like too much airflow for a single coil, even on the lowest air setting. I had to put a HUGE build on my Ammits to get flavor I liked. 4MM SS430 fused clapton spaced, 6 wraps. TC'ing at 460 gives me decent flavor with that build.
th
thats why i build vertical coils in the ammit that i have. it kinds covers the 3 airflow channels from the side. pic below. 4mm twisted ss316L 24g. worked like a charm
thats why i build vertical coils in the ammit that i have. it kinds covers the 3 airflow channels from the side. pic below. 4mm twisted ss316L 24g. worked like a charm
That looks awesome. I have to give one of those a whirl!