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aug 8th reg question

aaron1988

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so i have a nymbis vape box mod that has a lifetime warranty. if it breaks and i send it back would they be able to fix it as a warrenty or would that be ( producing a new tobacco product and not allowed)
 

JuicyLucy

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I would contact Nymbis to find out :)
 

KDodds

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Likely reading the deeming regs won't help you. NicoPure read the regs, said, "this is BS, we have products that do not contain tobacco or tabacoo derivates," and filed suit against the FDA. The FDAs response was that NicoPure can't file suit because they don't know if the regs apply. NOT "the regs don't apply", "they don't know if the regs apply". This would very likely be the same exact answer they would give to your mod manufacturer if they asked. Out of one side of their mouths they claim that anything that is linked to vaping is a tobacco product, and out of the other side they're saying that a particular product may or may not be a tobacco product and you can't know if it is or it isn't until/unless you submit it to the FDA for approval.

Where this gets really wonky is when they mention "nicotine delivery". The word, delivery, can be applied to any and all vehicles. If you walk to a vape shop, your sneakers are a delivery system. If you drive, so is your car. oh, and the plane that arrived from China with the goods, and the UPS guy who delivered them, all tobacco products because all facilitated the delivery of nicotine, or even if it didn't. Because if the device CAN be used to deliver nicotine and all you do with it is vape pure VG, with nothing else added, it's still a tobacco product. And because you can put VG in a tobacco product, it is a tobacco product. That's right, anal lube is now a tobacco product. So, for that matter, is the diluent used in nebulizers for the treatment of lung ailments (PG). Vanilla flavoring? Tobacco. Your toaster (kanthal)? Tobacco. You get the idea. The problem is the FDA set up these regs to control everything in vaping in an attempt to make it impossible for vaping to continue, but in order to do that they would, very literally, need control over everything.
 

hashtagvapemail

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so i have a nymbis vape box mod that has a lifetime warranty. if it breaks and i send it back would they be able to fix it as a warrenty or would that be ( producing a new tobacco product and not allowed)

I think that an argument could be made that this wasn't a purchase, they wouldn't be selling you the new one, it's a replacement under warranty; it's fulfillment of a contractual agreement based on an purchase made before the deeming. If it were me I'd send it out on those grounds within the warranty period.
After the two year mark, if the product is not taken through PMTA, I would assume that it's illegal to sell or transfer in the US. Basically, I'd call in that warranty before the two year mark if it still applies at that point, otherwise I don't think you'll get it at all.

After two years, basically everything will be illegal unless it has gone through the process. I don't know anyone who has actually started the process (and doubt most will until fall of next year), so no one actually knows how hard or east that process will be. It will be a tough call because if you start the process and don't pass, then your product can't be sold until it passes (you don't want to have that happen at the one year mark and potentially lose a year of sales), but then you also don't want to be in the crush of applications in the last few months either.
 

aaron1988

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Likely reading the deeming regs won't help you. NicoPure read the regs, said, "this is BS, we have products that do not contain tobacco or tabacoo derivates," and filed suit against the FDA. The FDAs response was that NicoPure can't file suit because they don't know if the regs apply. NOT "the regs don't apply", "they don't know if the regs apply". This would very likely be the same exact answer they would give to your mod manufacturer if they asked. Out of one side of their mouths they claim that anything that is linked to vaping is a tobacco product, and out of the other side they're saying that a particular product may or may not be a tobacco product and you can't know if it is or it isn't until/unless you submit it to the FDA for approval.

Where this gets really wonky is when they mention "nicotine delivery". The word, delivery, can be applied to any and all vehicles. If you walk to a vape shop, your sneakers are a delivery system. If you drive, so is your car. oh, and the plane that arrived from China with the goods, and the UPS guy who delivered them, all tobacco products because all facilitated the delivery of nicotine, or even if it didn't. Because if the device CAN be used to deliver nicotine and all you do with it is vape pure VG, with nothing else added, it's still a tobacco product. And because you can put VG in a tobacco product, it is a tobacco product. That's right, anal lube is now a tobacco product. So, for that matter, is the diluent used in nebulizers for the treatment of lung ailments (PG). Vanilla flavoring? Tobacco. Your toaster (kanthal)? Tobacco. You get the idea. The problem is the FDA set up these regs to control everything in vaping in an attempt to make it impossible for vaping to continue, but in order to do that they would, very literally, need control over everything.
true these regs are getting weird but some i do agree with but the vast majority is just confusing to me and what all they blanket. only loop hole ive seen was if your friend has the capability or you have the capability to make a mod your free to do so as long as none of them are the same every one has to be alittle diffrent or so ive heard so not sure if that would apply to a warrenty claim because nymbis may use the same enternals but every box is custome engraved so not sure on that or if it means nothing.
 

KDodds

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It's actually the opposite, it hinders change and innovation be requiring every minor change to be re-approved. FDA looking to fill their coffers so they can become Brawndo. Bonus points to whomever gets that reference without Google's help.
 

aaron1988

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It's actually the opposite, it hinders change and innovation be requiring every minor change to be re-approved. FDA looking to fill their coffers so they can become Brawndo. Bonus points to whomever gets that reference without Google's help.
but brawndo has electrolytes
 

aaron1988

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Apparently, the FDA thinks they do too. :)
seems about right. can understand the age restrictions and i dont want a dude mixing juice in a moldy basement but other than that not sure why they felt the need to step in. unless phillip morris decided that they wanted that chunk of change the vape comunity took away from it
 

KDodds

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seems about right. can understand the age restrictions and i dont want a dude mixing juice in a moldy basement but other than that not sure why they felt the need to step in. unless phillip morris decided that they wanted that chunk of change the vape comunity took away from it
Well Big Tobacco or Big Pharma or both... They've made several statements about smoking cessation stating that there are FDA approved alternatives to vaping. Unfortunately, many of these are unnecessarily expensive (patches, gum), most don't work, like Wellbutrin and the aforementioned replacements, and some are downright dangerous, like Wellbutrin (seizures, suicidal tendencies) and Chantix (suicide, insomnia, host of other very unpleasant side effects). The FDA is clearly not interested in the long term health of those wishes to quit smoking or smoke less. And all of the reputable studies thus far are in agreement, that the FDA is out of its collective mind, lining its pockets, or both.
 

lordmage

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Both i vote both :D
Well Big Tobacco or Big Pharma or both... They've made several statements about smoking cessation stating that there are FDA approved alternatives to vaping. Unfortunately, many of these are unnecessarily expensive (patches, gum), most don't work, like Wellbutrin and the aforementioned replacements, and some are downright dangerous, like Wellbutrin (seizures, suicidal tendencies) and Chantix (suicide, insomnia, host of other very unpleasant side effects). The FDA is clearly not interested in the long term health of those wishes to quit smoking or smoke less. And all of the reputable studies thus far are in agreement, that the FDA is out of its collective mind, lining its pockets, or both.
 

hashtagvapemail

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Here's my worst case, fear porn, doomsday prediction for the next two years.


They allow everything to try and get through PMTA, some make it, some don't. Doesn't matter to them.

We have more documentation of mods (I would guess most of these are the old unregulated kind, but they won't differentiate in the reporting) blowing up in people's faces, making them a truly catastrophic public danger which must be dealt with (as unpopular as this may be, I think they should ban the sale of any unregulated mods personally, that's one of the few regs, that and age compliance, which I think actually really make sense).

They use that to ban mods generally as unsafe for public use. From there, they shoot for nicotine as a dangerous poison, requiring special facilities or expensive licensing (or both) to obtain.

At that point, all that's left on the primary market are the e cigs, which operate off of closed and sealed cartridges. Then the only players left in the game will be the big tobacco companies. This is where it looked like the EU was going with TPD (I think that's the acronym, we looked into selling in the UK. but it was going to be quite expensive just to get the proper approvals/registrations per product...).

Banning mods and restricting nicotine would effectively kill the DIY side, eventually, in the majority of the populace (and annihilate the business side much earlier), and a lot of manufactured eliquid as well (depending on the costs). At that point, the only legal delivery systems available (once all the existing mods die out from attrition, which would only take a year or so for the regulated mods) are the sealed cartridge type, so in order to DIY you'd have to get your nic somewhere and find a way to get it in there (like a needle for ink replacement in the old printer cartridges I guess).

But at that point they would have effectively killed off the entire side of this that isn't controlled directly and owned by the big tobacco companies. And then all you have on the market are things that look just like cigarettes physically, making it easier to extend the existing cigarette taxes to them (removing one more incentive to vape instead of smoking, but fixing the nasty revenue problem for the states) with just a tiny little nudge on public opinion. Then BAM! Several billion dollar industry handed over them with a pretty bow on top. Top regulators get revolving door jobs (because they understand the regs so well) for big money and everyone goes on vacation and sips pina coladas.

I think the key moves to be on the look out for IMO, in the next few years, are outright bans around mods (generally, not specific in any way that would restrict this to one dangerous subset but a general ban on all), and calls for stricter control of nicotine sales to the public.

If you see those happening, then you know they're paid for and it's basically done. This is the scenario that I fear personally. They can't stop zeros, and they can't stop you from making your own old school (and arguably dangerous, depending on how you make it) mech mod. But removing those from the marketplace will kill this for all but the most hardcore.


I think that this is fairly likely if we can't get congressional action to backstop some of this.

At least get recognition in the broader populace of how much better vaping is for someone than smoking(this is largely established, agreed upon, and not in dispute), likely combined with information on how effective all the current stop smoking campaigns/products have been(not very) versus the effectiveness of vaping to get people off of cigarettes as their primary nicotine delivery system (at least).

Cutting cigarette use in half for someone (and most drop more than this from everyone I've known) radically improves the health outlook for that person. So the impact on public health of having people still using nicotine, but vaping instead of smoking is far from trivial and should be a goal in itself for any organization charged with enhancing the general public health (IMO).
 

lordmage

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well after two years my worst case is they redefine the pact act forcing all users to buy local or risk getting it seized
 

KDodds

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You can't control control boards coming in from China or the entire computer and electronics industry gets shut down. Your can't control plastic or metal or any innocuous material as a hollow box or tube or you shut down flashlights, remote controls, mice, video and game controllers, basically any case used to hold a board and battery combo. You can't control threaded connectors, and so on, you get the idea. That's a lesson the government still hasn't learned from a very old book originally released in the very early 70s. You can ban a product, but you can't ban its ingredients. Where the ingredients are available, people will put them together to make a usable finished product.

Juice, pretty much the same thing. You can't ban PG, VG, or already approved flavors. That leaves nicotine which, as long as big pharma is making patches and acrylic gum, will be available. Would it surprise you to know that many chemicals like nicotine, caffeine, etc. are, and always have been, readily available to even high school students through scientific supply companies for use in experiments? That's not going to disappear. There are other sources as well like, oh, the tobacco plant itself. And it's really not all that difficult to do. WAY easier than some other things that amateur chemists create. There's also readily available "quit products" that can also be extracted.

People who know will "survive". People who don't, won't. In this worst case scenario, of course. It might make things a little more difficult, but not by much. Who it's really going to kill are the resellers, they're a dead entity in your scenario. But not the current knowledgeable vaper, especially thanks to this forum.
 

lordmage

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yes but not everyone can complete the device at home.
 

KDodds

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Not even with assistance from friends? I think you will be amazed at how fast China can implement completely solder free connection of various parts. Board with screw and micro connectors, check. Body, check. Battery sled with connector, check. 510 with connector, check. All of the components already exist, actually. No new tech is required to make a modular, unassembled, sold separately, kit. And it's WAY easier than even installing a new HDD in your computer (which is already laughably easy).
 

r055co

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Bottom line is Prep!

Nicotine is the weak link, stock 100mg nic in PG base in the freezer. Then get back ups of your favorite devices. Learn to build and you'll be fine. Vaping will go underground and black market.

I've said it before a number of times. I used to be perfectly happy with vaping on my Tank's with factory coils. I thought building coils to be too much busy work and said no way would I ever touch a Mech. Well Government and the FDA changed all that.

Government will not force me back to Tobacco, no matter how hard they try.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 

aaron1988

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the mods will be semi easy to get or build for most imo the hard part i would think would be getting ahold of new dripping atomizers. not many companys that i can think of have a 2,3,4 post atomizer that you could get ahold of if an outright ban happens.
 

KDodds

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Yep, working on my prep for worst case scenario now, got the DIY eliq down and stockpiling 100mg. Starting to learn how to build. My weak link is mods, I keep using the ones I buy to get more flavors into rotation. :D But, because they're in rotation, they're not used as heavily, so they'll last longer. At least that's how I justify dipping into my stash. The bigger problem is my wife who chronically breaks shit AND loses shit. One mod and four tanks gone so far this year alone. I can't get it through her head that IF the FDA crackdown effectively bans everything, not only will the resources be limited, they'll be unreplenishable. That's it. Done. Broke your last tank? SOL. Yeah, I'm stockpiling replacement glass, seals and rings. But at her rate of destruction, I'd need some 200 replacement glass for the tanks and about 50 mods and tanks to cover lost items. That's just something I can't do.

I think our internal government is VERY aware of the ramifications of smoking cessation through vaping. According to the CDC, smokers SAVE the government some $160k in benefits by dying "at least 10 years" early. That's an extra, roughly, half a trillion dollars in benefits increase, just to cover people who vape instead of smoke now. Nevermind the lost taxes for that same time span which probably run another 20-50 billion lost income for that same time frame. I'm not a conspiracy nut, but is it really such a coincidence that all of the actions being taken by our government are beneficial to big government, and no one else? At some point, you kind of have to sigh and say to yourself, "you know, all that circumstantial evidence is kind of overwhelming".
 

KDodds

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the mods will be semi easy to get or build for most imo the hard part i would think would be getting ahold of new dripping atomizers. not many companys that i can think of have a 2,3,4 post atomizer that you could get ahold of if an outright ban happens.
Mech mods will and can never be banned. Modular flashlights with 510 connectors are the simplest form of new product. LED "hobby tops" are a simple extension of this concept that would allow all RDAs/RDTAs/RTAs through. The REAL weak link is prebuilt coils and the devices that use them. This is a very good reason, if you prefer tank systems, to learn how to build and use tanks with currently available rebuildable decks, even if you don't currently use those decks.
On the "software" side, it's the nicotine. Stockpiling at every sale now is prudent. Besides, even if it all does not come crashing down, you can easily save yourself hundreds or thousands, depending on how much you go through, per years on juice. DIY juice costs me about 2¢/ml. I still support the juice makers like MaddCatt, Scope, TMaxx, and Insane, but if any or all of them shut down tomorrow, I won't be shut down.
 

r055co

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the mods will be semi easy to get or build for most imo the hard part i would think would be getting ahold of new dripping atomizers. not many companys that i can think of have a 2,3,4 post atomizer that you could get ahold of if an outright ban happens.
Mech mods will and can never be banned. Modular flashlights with 510 connectors are the simplest form of new product. LED "hobby tops" are a simple extension of this concept that would allow all RDAs/RDTAs/RTAs through. The REAL weak link is prebuilt coils and the devices that use them. This is a very good reason, if you prefer tank systems, to learn how to build and use tanks with currently available rebuildable decks, even if you don't currently use those decks.
On the "software" side, it's the nicotine. Stockpiling at every sale now is prudent. Besides, even if it all does not come crashing down, you can easily save yourself hundreds or thousands, depending on how much you go through, per years on juice. DIY juice costs me about 2¢/ml. I still support the juice makers like MaddCatt, Scope, TMaxx, and Insane, but if any or all of them shut down tomorrow, I won't be shut down.
Yep, working on my prep for worst case scenario now, got the DIY eliq down and stockpiling 100mg. Starting to learn how to build. My weak link is mods, I keep using the ones I buy to get more flavors into rotation. :D But, because they're in rotation, they're not used as heavily, so they'll last longer. At least that's how I justify dipping into my stash. The bigger problem is my wife who chronically breaks shit AND loses shit. One mod and four tanks gone so far this year alone. I can't get it through her head that IF the FDA crackdown effectively bans everything, not only will the resources be limited, they'll be unreplenishable. That's it. Done. Broke your last tank? SOL. Yeah, I'm stockpiling replacement glass, seals and rings. But at her rate of destruction, I'd need some 200 replacement glass for the tanks and about 50 mods and tanks to cover lost items. That's just something I can't do.

I think our internal government is VERY aware of the ramifications of smoking cessation through vaping. According to the CDC, smokers SAVE the government some $160k in benefits by dying "at least 10 years" early. That's an extra, roughly, half a trillion dollars in benefits increase, just to cover people who vape instead of smoke now. Nevermind the lost taxes for that same time span which probably run another 20-50 billion lost income for that same time frame. I'm not a conspiracy nut, but is it really such a coincidence that all of the actions being taken by our government are beneficial to big government, and no one else? At some point, you kind of have to sigh and say to yourself, "you know, all that circumstantial evidence is kind of overwhelming".

As I pointed out Nicotine is the weak link for us, they're going to come at it and come at it hard IMO. They haven't gotten their shit together and coordinated "yet". It takes time for the huge behemoth bureaucracy of government to get their shit together, but trust me, they are getting it together to come after it. There will be significant regulations, restrictions and tax's. Shit here in the State of Washington one has to show ID and they log your information for just buying canned air for your computer. So this is why having a freezer full of 100mg nic in PG base is critical. I did the math, for me to comfortably last the rest of my life I need 3 liters, I have 4.5 liters sitting in the freezer. This is for a bit of wiggle room "and" to have something for close friends and family who choose to get off the Stinkies in the future. So while nicotine is still relatively cheep get a few liters in the freezer "now".

I also went on a huge buying spree the last few months, put a lot of shit on hold just to focus on my FDA Apocalypse stash. I'm very well set now for myself "and" for those who I choose to help in the future get off the Stinkies. Now I will just buy something that really peaks my interest.

So take advantage of Sales for hardware, get 100mg nicotine while it's still available and cheap.

Best case scenario where the courts throw out the FDA reg's and Government doesn't tax the fuck out of anything Vaping, you just have a lot of shit to use, trade and/or sell. But to be perfectly honest with how corrupt our Government is I very highly doubt this will come to be. We're going to get fucked people, without even a goddamn courtesy of a reach around.

I refuse to allow Government to force me back to Tobacco!
 

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