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RonJS

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I got this message from Alice in Vapeland..
--
As you may already know, new FDA regulations take effect on Monday, August 8th. We are now required to verify the ages of our customers.

BlueCheck is an age verification service that determines if our customers are of legal age to buy vape products where they live. During checkout, when you click the “I verify that I am of legal purchasing age” checkbox, a BlueCheck window will pop up. Simply enter your information and you’re good to go!
---
Seems like age verification may be in many of our futures and I wonder how safe or secure BlueCheck is?

Anybody use this service yet?

Thanks!

Ron
---
"You can tell it's good if you light it and a blue flame comes up; that means it's good moonshine and it won't make you go blind."- Johnny Knoxville
 

noejuice

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Yeah, I got the same thing from bevapehappy. One more day to order shit.
 

Teresa P

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I got an email re BlueCheck from vipervape .. It seems a very obtrusive age verification setup, I started thinking that I would avoid vendors using it but had not made a clear decision on that when I received a second email from vipervape stating: That they had chosen a different age verification system that was less intrusive/ (annoying) - The BlueCheck system had mention of SSN numbers / copies of ID (with selfie taken next to ID (WTF!?? ;p) ) Glad they chose to NOT use that one.

Guess we'll have to see how much of the constitution will be whittled away over this...

I mean really these new regs ($) are ($) only ($) here ($) to ($) protect ($) kids ($) and ($) prevent ($) terrorism after all.
 

Teresa P

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Well, how about I shop with the vendors who use a system that doesn't violate or run the risk of compromising my personal info, and I'll cut the rest of them loose...no skin off my back. And I straight up refuse to put my personal information at risk to order a 10ml bottle of flavoring that I can put in my coffee.
 

Huckleberried

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I've been ordering from basically the same vendors for nearly two years. I'm wondering if regular, established patrons will have to go through such an age verification process with them after today.
I got an email from a vendor... trouble remembering which, because my old is kicking today :crazy:, but it said that many people won't be required to enter anything at all. So, that makes me wonder if established customers won't fall into that. Problem was, it just wasn't very clear.

And I completely agree, I shouldn't have to do so with vendors that are not selling gear, or juice. They're really pushing us, and I can't imagine what some of the vendors are having to put up with.
 

Rickajho

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I won't purchase from any place using BlueCheck. That is just waaaay too much information you need to provide on the front end - including your cell phone number to receive and use a pointless PIN code during the process.

And there are "Terms of Use" and "Privacy Policy" links you had better actually click on and read on the start page of a BlueCheck verification before you consider handing over information even once. Like WTF do they need your e-mail address for to verify your age? Oh yeah - they don't. Your EMA would never be relevant to an age check. But they will sell it and you will begin receiving new SPAM at that provided e-mail address within minutes of your first BlueCheck verification.

Someone on the Mount Baker Vapor blog said, having read BlueCheck's privacy policy, they set up a new EMA only to be used with BlueCheck. Within minutes of the one and only time that EMA had been given to anyone - in this case a BlueCheck verification - they started getting SPAM email. For boner pills and everything else.

This place got in the business as opportunistic bastards. There are other companies that have been doing age verification based on public record information for decades before BlueCheck showed up... only months ago. And BlueCheck is pimping hard - only to the vaping community. No thanks.
 
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KDodds

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I really don't understand why people so overly concerned about receiving spam emails are not using email clients with effective spam/junk detection. Rarely do I have to "junk" something, and I can get 50-100 spam/junk mails in a day that I never have to look at and don't count towards storage totals.
 

Jimi D

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I really don't understand why people so overly concerned about receiving spam emails are not using email clients with effective spam/junk detection. Rarely do I have to "junk" something, and I can get 50-100 spam/junk mails in a day that I never have to look at and don't count towards storage totals.
Agreed dude. I went through this new age verification this week. People just like to bitch Lol
 

Sonar505

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Agreed dude. I went through this new age verification this week. People just like to bitch Lol
I don't feel that they are bitching about receiving spam. What seems to concern a lot of people is them asking for part of their Social Security Number. Which is also my main concern. Identity theft is nothing to laugh about. And also after reading some of Bluecheck's CEO posts on reddit. He seems to be evading the questions of how long, who sees it and what info they sell and or store.
 

KDodds

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Fortunately or unfortunately, NONE of the information you are giving to BlueCheck is "private knowledge". It is, after all, checked against public record. The very same information about you can be obtained on any number of pay-for-info public sites. Should we be concerned about "identity theft"? Absolutely. But squirreling away your "private information" in a lockbox is fruitless when the information is already out there and readily available. Also, most people confuse credit card theft and identity theft. The former is a huge and ubiquitous problem, the latter is exceedingly more rare.
 

Zamazam

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I got an email from a vendor... trouble remembering which, because my old is kicking today :crazy:, but it said that many people won't be required to enter anything at all. So, that makes me wonder if established customers won't fall into that. Problem was, it just wasn't very clear.

And I completely agree, I shouldn't have to do so with vendors that are not selling gear, or juice. They're really pushing us, and I can't imagine what some of the vendors are having to put up with.
If I order flavors with no nic or ejuice, then I will refuse to supply any personal info that can lead to identity theft. Food flavorings do not need your fucking driver's license number or last 4 of your SSN. I draw the line at that crap.
 

Sonar505

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Fortunately or unfortunately, NONE of the information you are giving to BlueCheck is "private knowledge". It is, after all, checked against public record. The very same information about you can be obtained on any number of pay-for-info public sites. Should we be concerned about "identity theft"? Absolutely. But squirreling away your "private information" in a lockbox is fruitless when the information is already out there and readily available. Also, most people confuse credit card theft and identity theft. The former is a huge and ubiquitous problem, the latter is exceedingly more rare.
Sure your info might be out there. But why add to it and make it even easier to be found? Also there are other company's who offer the same kind of service without requiring any part of your SSN.
As for me there is no confusion as I have had both happen to me in the past. So I do not believe it is as rare as you think. And while I believe everyone should make their own choice. It is not a very nice statement to say people are bitchin when they are only voicing their own opinions.
 

KDodds

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Sure your info might be out there. But why add to it and make it even easier to be found? Also there are other company's who offer the same kind of service without requiring any part of your SSN.
As for me there is no confusion as I have had both happen to me in the past. So I do not believe it is as rare as you think. And while I believe everyone should make their own choice. It is not a very nice statement to say people are bitchin when they are only voicing their own opinions.
Oh, I didn't say you were "bitching". I'm just pointing out that your concerns are not necessarily of great import. One of my coworkers says, "When it happens to you, it happens 100% of the time." And that can certainly, and understandably, affect your view.

But the facts are that 93% of individuals 16 and over will not experience "identity theft" in any form this year, given historical data. Of the 7% who will experience it, the overwhelming majority (86%) will experience theft of a single, active account (i.e. credit card fraud is lumped in the "identity theft" statistics). That leaves less than 1% of the population (14% of 7%) who will experience true theft of identity. So, yeah, it's about as rare as I thought, about 3-9 individuals per 1000, depending on how you rearrange and examine the statistics.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/vit14.pdf
 

hashtagvapemail

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This was pretty informative, but I'm still not convinced: https://www.reddit.com/r/OasisVape/comments/49zeh5/i_am_alex_bluecheck_ask_me_anything_about_age/
I've been ordering from basically the same vendors for nearly two years. I'm wondering if regular, established patrons will have to go through such an age verification process with them after today.
It's really up to the site to figure out what they want to do, but ClueCheck is theoretically supposed to verify once and then on all future orders just push them through as long as you're using the same shipping address (as far as I understand), we're probably going to go through them but we're looking at a few different vendors now.
 

hashtagvapemail

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The biggest problem that I see with all of that is that for the sites you're ordering from, they have to have something in place. So my question would be (and this is an honest question, not a rhetorical one) would you be more comfortable with BlueCheck having that information or the individual site owners (for instance selfie's of your driver's license) ?

We're trying to hash out how to move forward on this right now, and BlueCheck is one option we're looking at.
 

hashtagvapemail

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If I order flavors with no nic or ejuice, then I will refuse to supply any personal info that can lead to identity theft. Food flavorings do not need your fucking driver's license number or last 4 of your SSN. I draw the line at that crap.
As long as you're ordering your DIY flavors from somewhere that doesn't sell any vape related supplies, then you shouldn't need it as far as I understand. If you're buying from somewhere that also sells anything intended to be used for vaping (or in an ENDS), then the seller will have to ensure that you're not someone under 18 trying to get your hands on the product illegally (or a compliance secret shopper), or they get fined (and it doesn't take too many to reach a point that would break most small businesses).

So for DIY'ers, you may need to swap out your suppliers to someone that doesn't sell ejuice, hardware, wire or cotton at all, only flavorings. Then you won't have to deal with any of that.
 

raymo2u

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If bluecheck asks for that information on the main store site and not a redirect to a encrypted page then your personal information is vulnerable...
 

JuicyLucy

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I have zero issue showing my license, the number can be covered and is not needed for age verification.

Also would not have an issue with paying for the age verification on delivery.

We all knew there is no way the FDA rules would NOT increase prices.
 

JuicyLucy

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ok, so how is it I'm able to order a few bottles of Wine online and the store mysteriously manages to deduce my age from my CC?
I posted this on another thread. Here is all that is needed from Wine.com

Screen Shot 2016-08-14 at 8.40.49 AM.png
 

hashtagvapemail

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ok, so how is it I'm able to order a few bottles of Wine online and the store mysteriously manages to deduce my age from my CC?
Our credit card processor has offered a service to determine age by credit card and shipping address, I would assume they are using this or something similar. I personally have big concerns over this approach (actually any approach that we don't control 100%), but they can ensure from your credit card that the person who owns the credit card is over 18. We initially didn't do direct age verification, because everyone who has a credit card in their name is over 18 (unless the issueing bank is insane since you can't contract with a minor).

What I'm saying is that if you have a credit card, or the credit info alone is used to verify, then you aren't really paying (as a business) for any verification service at all because everyone that legally has a credit card (that isn't a pre-paid gift card) is necesarily over 18.

Any online sale that is made by a minor (or someone posing as a minor) will use a credit card, and that credit card will be tied to someone over 18. So if you verify just off that, you probably shouldn't pay anything for it (since it's basically just verifying that the credit card, name, and address match which the processor does anyway), and I don't think would protect you from an attempt by the FDA to order as a minor (although I'm very, very unclear on what they are and aren't allowed to do in a compliance shop...and they're not telling).
 

hashtagvapemail

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I posted this on another thread. Here is all that is needed from Wine.com

View attachment 59626
I think that you're hitting on right where my real questions are around this. Basically, if you have a credit card and it's being shipped to the address on that card, you're necessarily over 18.

My question is when the FDA places an order to test us or anyone, what can they use to try and pull it off? Seems that by definition the credit card will be not the same as the address (which should fail anyway). If we require ID checks, then are they allowed to show us a fake ID? Are we required to know if someone faked a Wisconsin driver's license (which I've personally never seen)?

At what point does their attempt to create a sale that looks legit become entrapment because we can't reasonably tell the difference between a legit and illegitimate order because, say, 85% of the order information is legitimate and from someone of legal age (just so the purchase will basically go through)? Do I even reasonably have any way to know that the person is allegedly under 18?

So far, we've only had a few order where they refused to send in the ID selfie, and I'm not sure that if you ask for ID, and they show you one that says the required age, whether they could fine you. I'm not certain they can expect you reasonably to determine a fake id at all.

But I don't know, and again, the fines get so high so quick, it leaves me really squeamish. I think the way it will go down is that they will place their compliance orders, potentially with very convincing information (maybe mostly correct, or using fake ID's), and then it would be up to the business to file a suit against them for entrapment.

Seeing as they have endless funds for the legal fight and your average shop has far from endless funds, you can guess who is wins that fight.
 
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hashtagvapemail

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I'd say Bluecheck is hosing vape shops with unneeded costs if you can verify age via CC and address information.
I really, really wonder exactly how they can do their age verification compliance shops. I tend to agree with you. If they can't send in a fake ID, or an ID that doesn't show then under 18 (meaning that it's not on us to verify that the ID is fake), then I don't think you get anything from something like BlueCheck.

The fines are just draconian, but I'm not sure. I think I need to research how this is done with other online sellers (the compliance checks) and see if there is an entrapment line in the sand on for instance, use of fake state issued ID's for the compliance shops.

My wife used to do compliance shops for alcohol, but that was all brick and mortar. She had to use her actual ID, the test was whether they asked for it or not. I'm not certain that it's reasonable to expect an online seller to verify age and also validate ID is not fake for all purchasers, when I don't think it's encumbent on the brick and mortar stores to do so. The B& M would actually have a much better chance, since the majority of their purchasers would be from either one to three states (by vicinity to the shop).

That's the biggest problem, those jerks won't tell us anything about the rules of engagement on their enforcement, so we're left looking at one side at the fines (which get insane), and on the other side the fact that they won't tell us what we need to do or how they will check (which would help determine what we need to pay for and could weigh its impact on customer experience to its benefit in compliance).
 

Huckleberried

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Here's what I just saw at Discount Vapers, using Veratad. I hope this posts big enough to see.

upload_2016-8-20_21-26-18.png
 

Rickajho

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I really don't understand why people so overly concerned about receiving spam emails are not using email clients with effective spam/junk detection. Rarely do I have to "junk" something, and I can get 50-100 spam/junk mails in a day that I never have to look at and don't count towards storage totals.
So a company that sells itself to the business sector as an age verification service, while it is also in this to mine personal information to send out solicitations which don't have a damned thing to do with the service of age verification is... what? A good thing?
 

KDodds

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So a company that sells itself to the business sector as an age verification service, while it is also in this to mine personal information to send out solicitations which don't have a damned thing to do with the service of age verification is... what? A good thing?
No, absolutely not. But it is a sad reality of modern life that we have accepted for decades in many forms, from DMA snail mail, to telemarketers, to spam mail, and now phone and text. And LONG before any of that we agreed to be bombarded with advertisements from radio, and later television, "sponsors". It's nothing new, just another form of annoying advertisement. Maybe I'm different because sales pitches never work on me. Case in point, I can (and have) walked out on "haggle sessions" with salesman, especially car salesmen, many times.
 

Rickajho

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ok, so how is it I'm able to order a few bottles of Wine online and the store mysteriously manages to deduce my age from my CC?
Age checking - which has been done for a long, long time before BlueCheck ever showed is relatively easy for the companies doing it tied in to public record data.

Who are you?

What is your billing address reported for the credit card being used today?

Does that name and address match the cc being transacted? First flag.

Compare reported Name, address(es) and DOB on the order with public record data - no "intervention" pop-ups ala BlueCheck asking for unnecessary and unneeded extraneous information required.

If the order is stopped due to an inability to cross match your reported DOB to name & address info on the order it's handled between you and the merchant - not by you forking over copies of anything to a third party.

Want an example of a more legitimate place that has been providing this service for ages? Here: http://www.lexisnexis.com/risk/products/instant-age-verification.aspx
 

hashtagvapemail

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I think that for the time being we're going to continue the copies of ID's held locally and checked as needed process. I don't think that BlueCheck adds any value personally, and seems risky to customer data.

We will be getting the picture of the ID once, and then storing it for all registered customers, any unregistered will need to send that in before their order will be placed. We'll also be checking both random ID's, and also any that look suspect against a third party to verify that the ID is valid.

Once it's done, for all customers, we'll have you flagged, so you won't be bothered on a second order for it again. We will only be shipping to the address on the ID though (like we currently must for a few states anyway), if you need it shipped elsewhere we'll probably have to get in touch with you personally.

I think that covers us from a compliance perspective, protects your information from BlueCheck (which isn't a known and trusted entity like Veratad or Lexis Nexis ), and represents a reasonable setup to ensure we don't sell to minors. We're basically going to cross check the ID if you look under 30 in your ID on your first order to ensure it's valid, so we should honestly be safer for minors than your average corner store...

I honestly think that's about as good as it's going to get for ensuring we don't sell to kids, doesn't create any un-necessary friction for customers on purchase, and keeps us safe from the FDA auditors. This route should allow us to safely avoid requiring signature verification (although we may need to do that eventually) and in so doing continue to ship for free.

What do you guys think?
 

JuicyLucy

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I think that for the time being we're going to continue the copies of ID's held locally and checked as needed process. I don't think that BlueCheck adds any value personally, and seems risky to customer data.

We will be getting the picture of the ID once, and then storing it for all registered customers, any unregistered will need to send that in before their order will be placed. We'll also be checking both random ID's, and also any that look suspect against a third party to verify that the ID is valid.

Once it's done, for all customers, we'll have you flagged, so you won't be bothered on a second order for it again. We will only be shipping to the address on the ID though (like we currently must for a few states anyway), if you need it shipped elsewhere we'll probably have to get in touch with you personally.

I think that covers us from a compliance perspective, protects your information from BlueCheck (which isn't a known and trusted entity like Veratad or Lexis Nexis ), and represents a reasonable setup to ensure we don't sell to minors. We're basically going to cross check the ID if you look under 30 in your ID on your first order to ensure it's valid, so we should honestly be safer for minors than your average corner store...

I honestly think that's about as good as it's going to get for ensuring we don't sell to kids, doesn't create any un-necessary friction for customers on purchase, and keeps us safe from the FDA auditors. This route should allow us to safely avoid requiring signature verification (although we may need to do that eventually) and in so doing continue to ship for free.

What do you guys think?
Good guys!
 

Rossum

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Somehow, I missed this thread.

I'm stocked and don't need anything. But I did want to try some of those new DIY extracts. So I e-mailed and asked if they had a work-around for someone who wasn't willing to sign up for a BlueCheck account. They took my order via e-mail and sent me an electronic invoice.

My objection to BlueCheck is that it creates a nice list of people who've bought vape goods on-line. I suspect such a list will be considered quite handy by various state revenue departments as those states start to impose taxes. E.g. Pennsylvania, where there's a 40% tax effective October 1st. So I refuse to be on that list.
 

Huckleberried

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Somehow, I missed this thread.

I'm stocked and don't need anything. But I did want to try some of those new DIY extracts. So I e-mailed and asked if they had a work-around for someone who wasn't willing to sign up for a BlueCheck account. They took my order via e-mail and sent me an electronic invoice.

My objection to BlueCheck is that it creates a nice list of people who've bought vape goods on-line. I suspect such a list will be considered quite handy by various state revenue departments as those states start to impose taxes. E.g. Pennsylvania, where there's a 40% tax effective October 1st. So I refuse to be on that list.
I swear I'd never have thought of that. Seems so simple, too.

 

Zamazam

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I think that for the time being we're going to continue the copies of ID's held locally and checked as needed process. I don't think that BlueCheck adds any value personally, and seems risky to customer data.

We will be getting the picture of the ID once, and then storing it for all registered customers, any unregistered will need to send that in before their order will be placed. We'll also be checking both random ID's, and also any that look suspect against a third party to verify that the ID is valid.

Once it's done, for all customers, we'll have you flagged, so you won't be bothered on a second order for it again. We will only be shipping to the address on the ID though (like we currently must for a few states anyway), if you need it shipped elsewhere we'll probably have to get in touch with you personally.

I think that covers us from a compliance perspective, protects your information from BlueCheck (which isn't a known and trusted entity like Veratad or Lexis Nexis ), and represents a reasonable setup to ensure we don't sell to minors. We're basically going to cross check the ID if you look under 30 in your ID on your first order to ensure it's valid, so we should honestly be safer for minors than your average corner store...

I honestly think that's about as good as it's going to get for ensuring we don't sell to kids, doesn't create any un-necessary friction for customers on purchase, and keeps us safe from the FDA auditors. This route should allow us to safely avoid requiring signature verification (although we may need to do that eventually) and in so doing continue to ship for free.

What do you guys think?
It's a gap measure, but works. As long as jurisdictions don't send threat-o-grams wanting the copies of the photo ID's for tax collection purposes, I think it will work.
 

The Cromwell

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I got this message from Alice in Vapeland..
--
As you may already know, new FDA regulations take effect on Monday, August 8th. We are now required to verify the ages of our customers.

BlueCheck is an age verification service that determines if our customers are of legal age to buy vape products where they live. During checkout, when you click the “I verify that I am of legal purchasing age” checkbox, a BlueCheck window will pop up. Simply enter your information and you’re good to go!
---
Seems like age verification may be in many of our futures and I wonder how safe or secure BlueCheck is?

Anybody use this service yet?

Thanks!

Ron
---
"You can tell it's good if you light it and a blue flame comes up; that means it's good moonshine and it won't make you go blind."- Johnny Knoxville
BlueCheck WILL sell your information. It is in their terms.

And the first 3 of your SS is based on where you were born/filed for SS card.
So if you give them the last 4... And a pic of your DL....
Only 99 guesses to have the whole thing.
 

Crochetandcookies

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I just don't know what I'm going to do now. I don't diy and I'm worried about giving my last 4 social security digits. The vape shops around here are ridiculously expensive and I'll be running out of liquids soon.

Both of the online shops I'd been using now have bluecheck and that veradad thing. I can't afford local juice.

So we can be looked up and taxed later for buying online with bluecheck?

Crap!

Darnet!
 

Crochetandcookies

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I'm afraid so and they're not looking good. That would be horrible to be taxed from the ghost of vapors past... :(:gaah:

Can they do that though? Come after an online eliquid shopper and tax us later on down the road?:facepalm::grumpy:
 

The Cromwell

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I'm afraid so and they're not looking good. That would be horrible to be taxed from the ghost of vapors past... :(:gaah:

Can they do that though? Come after an online eliquid shopper and tax us later on down the road?:facepalm::grumpy:
I don't think so unless you are somehow avoiding state taxes by ordering online.
They can come back on you now for that.
 

inspects

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I just don't know what I'm going to do now. I don't diy and I'm worried about giving my last 4 social security digits. The vape shops around here are ridiculously expensive and I'll be running out of liquids soon.

Both of the online shops I'd been using now have bluecheck and that veradad thing. I can't afford local juice.

So we can be looked up and taxed later for buying online with bluecheck?

Crap!

Darnet!
You could call the places you buy jooce and ask if you could send a copy of your drivers license or other ID with license number blocked out.....I've heard some shops are going this route if you don't use screw-check. Which I would never use, like others mentioned. They sell your information to spammers.
 

JuicyLucy

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I'm afraid so and they're not looking good. That would be horrible to be taxed from the ghost of vapors past... :(:gaah:

Can they do that though? Come after an online eliquid shopper and tax us later on down the road?:facepalm::grumpy:
Cromwell is correct.

There are plenty of online sellers using other methods than BlueCheck, you just need to look around :)

If I were you, I would highly consider learning to DIY - it will save you money, you will have higher quality juice and if you stockpile it will save you big bucks in the coming years :stars2:
 

The Cromwell

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VU Donator
Diamond Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Cromwell is correct.

There are plenty of online sellers using other methods than BlueCheck, you just need to look around :)

If I were you, I would highly consider learning to DIY - it will save you money, you will have higher quality juice and if you stockpile it will save you big bucks in the coming years :stars2:
Not only save you money but allow you to HAVE juice in a couple of years the way things look.
 

martnargh

Silver Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
i just loaded up on enough nic to last at least 5 years, if itll hold.
im going to go to the miccosukee dudes where i used to get tax free tabacco and see if they wanna get in the tax free liquid nic game hahahaa.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk
 

Crochetandcookies

Bronze Contributor
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Ah good ideas, and thanks for all the responses. I've been leary of diy because it looks complicated with all the calculators and percentages, lol.

But now I'm thinking of getting my paws in it. I'm too fearful of giving them even the last four of my social.

Any links anyone might suggest of easy and basic diy for beginners?

Thanks again for all the helpful info. Loving this place and I'm a newbie member.
 

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