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DOES ANYBODY UNDERSTAND MOOCH?

Carambrda

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from a source that is known to sell only authentic quality batteries
Mooch said every vendor will sell a fake battery soon or later because none of the vendors have the resources it takes to check each and every cell before they sell it to someone... what makes a trusted battery vendor trusted is what they'll do after they find out they've been selling fakes.
 

Carambrda

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At 20W, you could seriously consider using some of the 3500mAh 10A batteries, especially if there's more than one battery in the mod. There's no advantage to higher amps if you're not using it, and the mAh capacity obviously means the battery will last longer. Yes, most people vape higher and Mooch does focus on them more although I think he is planning to do a higher capacity battery shootout soon.
While it is true the fact Mooch said these ultra high capacity 10A batteries (e.g. Panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA, LG MJ1) are best used under 20W per battery, if using them in a regulated mod at 20W per battery they don't give more vaping time when compared to the 3000mAh battery choices (Sony/Murata VTC6, Samsung 30Q, LG HG2). If we can assume that the choice is going to be between one of these five different batteries, the crossover point where choosing an ultra high capacity 10A battery gives noticeably more vaping time when compared to choosing a high (3000mAh) capacity battery is typically only about 17.5W of power output, not 20W. This is because a typical 10A battery has a much bigger voltage sag in comparison. Depending on how you vape (i.e. depending mostly on how much time you give the battery to rest between subsequent drags, and possibly also fairly heavily depending on the hardware limitations of the regulated mod in question) this crossover point might actually turn out to be even lower than 17.5W. In addition to this, choosing a battery with a significantly higher CDR (15A instead of only 10A) causes the battery to heat up significantly slower thereby adding more safety whilst at the same time also causing slower aging of the battery. So at 20W per battery the Sony/Murata VTC6 or the Samsung 30Q is still a better choice after all.

 

susieqz

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we are talking 2 battery set ups, right?
i certainly don't want batteries that heat up.
 

Carambrda

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we are talking 2 battery set ups, right?
i certainly don't want batteries that heat up.
"Per battery" means you can just multiply the watts by the number of batteries in the mod for easy convenience.

As for batteries heating up, that's simply unavoidable because, as Mooch explained in the video I linked, the DC internal resistance of a battery is what causes it, i.e. it is due to a power loss inside the battery. This power loss gets transformed to heat so it equals a certain number of watts that can also be calculated if that's what you want. In fact it equals the voltage sag multiplied by current (i.e., the voltage sag multiplied by the number of amps drawn from the battery), and, in the video Mooch also explained how to calculate the voltage sag (i.e., the voltage sag equals the DC internal resistance of the battery you select for vaping multiplied by current). This should give you some idea of how much energy gets transformed to heat inside the battery each time when you take another puff... by calculating it, immediately you can see that it is quite a lot actually.

The good news is that the battery cools back down again after each puff. The longer you give it time to cool down before you take your next puff, the lower the battery temperature will be at the end of this same next puff. For reasons that are obvious, taking a shorter puff also causes the battery temperature to be lower at the end of the puff. Above 45 degrees Celsius is where a battery starts to age faster than normal. If in doubt you can pull out the batteries and feel how warm they get, by wrapping your fist around the battery holding it like that for 30 seconds. If you can't hold it like that for 30 seconds due to how hot the battery is, it means it's waa-aaaa-aaaaaaay too hot. So if your batteries are getting more than just a little bit warm, you might want to choose a different battery that has a lower DC internal resistance measurement, as Mooch explained in the video also. Generally what that means is you might seriously want to consider getting a battery with a higher CDR and get slower battery aging as a result (and get more safety also in addition to that, as the battery temperature is always among THE absolute most important factors in determining the level of safety... no matter what).
 

susieqz

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thanks, car.
my batteries only get warm in the charger.
i did watch the vid you posted again.
that doesn't mean i understood it.
really, all i'm doing is buying batteries you guys say are good.
 

The Cromwell

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looks like i screwed up.
some of the batteries i have are 2500 mah.
the 30qs i just ordered are 3000 mah., so, most of my batteries are inferior.
good to know.
this thread has paid off.
thanks, guys.
If the 2500 mah batteries say 25R on them they are good cells just not as much capacity as a good 3000 mah cell.
I use the Samsung 25R's in my Pico Squeeze squonkers.
They last over 1 bottle of juice per charge.
So I just change both the bottle and the battery at the same time.
I use 30Q's in my regulated mods and only vape at around 30W max so they work very well.
The 30Q will be fine at up to around 75W per battery, just will not last as long per charge at the higher wattage.
 

Carambrda

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If the 2500 mah batteries say 25R on them they are good cells just not as much capacity as a good 3000 mah cell.
I use the Samsung 25R's in my Pico Squeeze squonkers.
They last over 1 bottle of juice per charge.
So I just change both the bottle and the battery at the same time.
I use 30Q's in my regulated mods and only vape at around 30W max so they work very well.
The 30Q will be fine at up to around 75W per battery, just will not last as long per charge at the higher wattage.
The Samsung 30Q will be fine at up to around 45W per battery, not 75W per battery.
 

SteveS45

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They last over 1 bottle of juice per charge.

Total BS again from this Know It All. Maybe if all he buys or makes is only 15 ML's. But the last bottle I was working on was 120 ML's. No battery will last that long. Took me weeks to kill it. Many charges many~!
 

The Cromwell

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Mooch conditionally rated the 30Q at 20 amps.

So yeah a max of around 70 W.
But does perform better at lower wattages.
Performs best at 10 - 15 amps.
 

Carambrda

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thanks, car.
my batteries only get warm in the charger.
i did watch the vid you posted again.
that doesn't mean i understood it.
really, all i'm doing is buying batteries you guys say are good.
You don't need to immediately try to understand everything he said in that particular video. His entire YouTube channel is a lot of stuff to digest... I recommend that you work your way up starting at the bottom of the list and skipping the topics that either are not relevant for how you vape (e.g., the various parts concerning mech mods) or are less a priority to new vapers (i.e. to those who are just starting to learn about batteries). Watching "Minding your mAhs" Ep1 and Ep3, and of course "Battery Basics for Vapers" Ep1 is a pretty good way to start this long journey IMO. I can understand that just these 3 videos alone are a lot to digest also. The only way to go about it is by taking it one slow step at a time and take two steps back if necessary, letting it rest for a while if it gets too boring and/or it's making your head spin. But you should always remember there are no stupid questions. Only stupid answers so don't be afraid to ask for specifics on the subject of battery safety and battery performance.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCePHh3NMvu3rW2LFJeOWo-Q/videos
 

Carambrda

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Mooch conditionally rated the 30Q at 20 amps.

So yeah a max of around 70 W.
But does perform better at lower wattages.
Performs best at 10 - 15 amps.
The conditional (i.e., temperature-limited) rating of 20 amps is not what you nor anyone else should recommend to anyone. I think Mooch was pretty clear on that, in Minding Your mAhs Ep20 when he said that he asks you to recommend only the CDR instead, which is only 15 amps for the Samsung 30Q, and, in Minding Your mAhs Ep3 he also explained that up to 45 watts is the maximum limit for the Samsung 30Q so... no.
 

Carambrda

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No, she doesn't but you have to compliment her on the thirst for knowledge~! I see a person who will be pushing limits soon.
Of course. Pushing limits is not so bad... as long as people can always remember to not push them too far, and as long as people are correctly informed about the added risks before they can then decide for theirselves on exactly how far they want to push them.
 

The Cromwell

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And just a point here.
NO 3000 mah 18650 will perform well at 75 watts and will soon give low battery warnings.
Not unsafe for a good 20 amp 18650 but not very good performance at 75W.

If you are going to run 75 Watts or so on a single cell 18650 mod get Mooch approved 30 amp cells or at least the VTC5A which is 25 amps.
Less capacity overall but better usable run time at 75W.
 

susieqz

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you guys keep talking amps.
i only know watts.
so, please answer in watts.
in one 2 battery mod, i vape up to 45 watts for a certain flavor.
i should not use 30qs for this?
the rest are 40 watts or under.
 

gsmit1

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For now she has enough good batteries to not have to worry for a while, while she's learning more if she so chooses.
 

gsmit1

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you guys keep talking amps.
i only know watts.
so, please answer in watts.
in one 2 battery mod, i vape up to 45 watts for a certain flavor.
i should not use 30qs for this?
the rest are 40 watts or under.
Every battery you've mentioned will do you just fine, as far as providing the vape you want safely. Dialing in specific ones can be learned while you're using these with peace of mind. .
 

The Cromwell

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you guys keep talking amps.
i only know watts.
so, please answer in watts.
in one 2 battery mod, i vape up to 45 watts for a certain flavor.
i should not use 30qs for this?
the rest are 40 watts or under.
75 Watts on a regulated single 18650 mod will be about 20 amps of current.
30Q's will be fine at 45W.
 

gsmit1

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thanks.
i do worry.
You can stop that :)
Aside from being simply responsible, you don't have anything to worry about. Your present batteries are perfectly safe for how you use them. Use them in peace while you learn more.
 

Vape Fan

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If you are going to run 75 Watts or so on a single cell 18650 mod get Mooch approved 30 amp cells or at least the VTC5A which is 25 amps.
On VTC5A, Mooch rates it second, behind his best all around 18650: 25A P26A
you guys keep talking amps.
i only know watts.
so, please answer in watts.
in one 2 battery mod, i vape up to 45 watts for a certain flavor.
i should not use 30qs for this?
the rest are 40 watts or under.
For your 45w dual 18650, If you already have VTC6 there is no need to buy 30Q's.
I run dual batt at that wattage with both 30Q/VTC6 and see no difference in run time or charge time.
 

The Cromwell

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On VTC5A, Mooch rates it second, behind his best all around 18650: 25A P26A

For your 45w dual 18650, If you already have VTC6 there is no need to buy 30Q's.
I run dual batt at that wattage with both 30Q/VTC6 and see no difference in run time or charge time.
GREAT reply I forgot that she was running a dual cell mod.
In a dual cell mod 30Q's will work great at 75 watts or anything less.
So will VTC6, 25R, and any 20 amp or higher rated 18650.
 

f1r3b1rd

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you guys keep talking amps.
i only know watts.
so, please answer in watts.
in one 2 battery mod, i vape up to 45 watts for a certain flavor.
i should not use 30qs for this?
the rest are 40 watts or under.
This is an excerpt of an explanation I placed on my old blog

Ok, im pretty sure that if you’ve gotten to this point you have a basic idea on what some of the vaping terms and acronyms. But let’s get these out of the way.

Watts- a unit of measurement in electronics to indicate applied power
Volts- a unit of measurement in electronics to indicate pressure applied to current to create power
Resistance- a unit of measurement in electronics to indicate resistance
amperage- a unit of measurement in electronics to indicate current flow



Ohms Law

I have written about ohms law more times than I care to say, however, I am going to try my best to simplify this as much as possible.

Think of a circuit as a hose. The water flowing through the hose is the electricity or current(amps). The pressure pushing the water is the voltage. Now pinch the hose. Pinching the hose is adding Resistance. The pressure building up is voltage and the current flow has now decreased because you applied resistance.

Now if you take that Voltage or pressure and Multiply it by the Current or Amperage you are given your power or wattage measurement.

The problem comes in when you have a 20a battery but are trying to force it to give you more current than it has to offer.

All 4 parts that make a circuit happen are happening in conjunction with each other and as an added note to the beauty of it, whatever energy is put in must be equal to the energy coming out. What this means is that all you need are two bits of information to determine the others.

Ohms law is basically the relation of those bits of information. If you multiply the resistance applied by the current you are then given your voltage or force applied.

For ease of use the forumulas are

V=IR and P=VI
when:
V= voltage
I=current (amps)
P=power (watts)
R= resistance(ohms)


Why does ohms law matter? Batteries!

Why do you see some of us harp on ohms law? Because batteries. A battery is a limited space to hold energy. This means that we have to work within our limits. You don’t want to overdraw on your batteries. If you do bad things can happen, such as venting a battery or causing a battery to explode.

Make sure you use a battery with a 20 amp limit, meaning that If we assume the voltage after the spike from charging to be between 3.7 and 3.8 volts then the most we want to push the battery is about 75watts with a 0.18 ohm load at best. I try and preach that we stick with 20A batteries from known manufacturers. This essentially narrows down to four. Samsung 25r, Sony vtc4 AND vtc5, and LGhe4.

What if my mod takes two batteries? In the even that your mod uses multiple batteires, use batteries purchased together from the same manufacturer and keep them together. We call that “married pairs” when one stops working replace them both.
.
 
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f1r3b1rd

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This is another good analogy for how electricity works


We define voltage as the amount of potential energy between two points on a circuit. One point has more charge than another. This difference in charge between the two points is called voltage. It is measured in volts, which, technically, is the potential energy difference between two points that will impart one joule of energy per coulomb of charge that passes through it (don't panic if this makes no sense, all will be explained). The unit "volt" is named after the Italian physicist Alessandro Volta who invented what is considered the first chemical battery. Voltage is represented in equations and schematics by the letter "V".

When describing voltage, current, and resistance, a common analogy is a water tank. In this analogy, charge is represented by the water amount, voltage is represented by the water pressure, and current is represented by the water flow. So for this analogy, remember:

  • Water = Charge
  • Pressure = Voltage
  • Flow = Current
Consider a water tank at a certain height above the ground. At the bottom of this tank there is a hose.






The pressure at the end of the hose can represent voltage. The water in the tank represents charge. The more water in the tank, the higher the charge, the more pressure is measured at the end of the hose.

We can think of this tank as a battery, a place where we store a certain amount of energy and then release it. If we drain our tank a certain amount, the pressure created at the end of the hose goes down. We can think of this as decreasing voltage, like when a flashlight gets dimmer as the batteries run down. There is also a decrease in the amount of water that will flow through the hose. Less pressure means less water is flowing, which brings us to current.


From: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/voltage-current-resistance-and-ohms-law/voltage
 

susieqz

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um, that guy said the electricity comes back to the battery after use, but my electricity turns into heat at the coil.

thanks guys for letting me know i'm safe.
i've been vaping almost 4 months but still don't get everything.

joules? columbs?
my head hurts.
 
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gsmit1

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gsmit1 said: ↑
from a source that is known to sell only authentic quality batteries

Mooch said every vendor will sell a fake battery soon or later because none of the vendors have the resources it takes to check each and every cell before they sell it to someone... what makes a trusted battery vendor trusted is what they'll do after they find out they've been selling fakes.
Ok, but the point of this thread is (or should be) to responsibly and realistically put the mind of our lady friend here at ease. Of course no vendor can guarantee with airtight certainty that NO sub par battery will EVER pass through their operation.

However, the one's she's using are models, and from a source that any veteran would without hesitation pronounce to be as SAFE as THEY would require for the type of vaping she's using them for. I didn't say they were the very best optimal choice, dialed specifically in for her requirements. I said they are SAFE, by Mooch's definition.

That's all she's worried about right now and it's not too much for her to hope to go to sleep tonight knowing that she can enjoy her vaping without any undue fear to the contrary.

She can learn more as she goes, while enjoying what she has. If she were to hand me her batteries and gear, I would use it all day every day with no more fear than I would have using my own. Who's with me?

I'm not correcting or yelling at you or anybody, but it does seem that this central point is being largely missed :)
 

gsmit1

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my head hurts.
That's when it it's time to take a break, enjoy your vape and be patient with yourself. Trying to force feed an overload of information into your head will only frustrate you (or anybody else).
 

f1r3b1rd

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um, that guy said the electricity comes back to the battery after use, but my electricity turns into heat at the coil.

thanks guys for letting me know i'm safe.
i've been vaping almost 4 months but still don't get everything.

joules? columbs?
my head hurts.[/QUOTE
Joules is another measurement for work. Coulombs or Coulomb’s law is another law of physics, as is ohms law. Ohms law has a little more importance when it comes vaping and batteries.

If you’re truly interested in learning, I love to nerd out and explain. But, alas, it’s not a make or break concept in the vape world. A coulomb is a measurement of the force of attraction or repulsion between two point charges is directly proportional to the product of the magnitudes of charges and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Many times it’s used to find an otherwise unknown variable in circuit analysis.
 

f1r3b1rd

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gsmit1

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um, they aren't the very best optimal choice?
They're fine. Seriously.

It's possible to find the battery that will deliver the last trickle of capacity to your power requirements, but not doing so, is not in any way unsafe. That's all I meant. You can enjoy your vape with the knowledge that NObody in this thread would think twice about taking your setups and vaping them themselves.
 

susieqz

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good.
thanks.
i have 8 30qs in the mail right now.
with the dozen i have already, that makes 20 batteries.
that sounds insane.
 

The Cromwell

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btw I am outta here.
I see that Steve is posing in this thread. He is likely giving bad advise and whacking at me.
I have him on ignore and I am sure he is baiting me to peep at his posts.
 

gsmit1

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good.
thanks.
i have 8 30qs in the mail right now.
with the dozen i have already, that makes 20 batteries.
that sounds insane.
My only point was, that seeing your present situation is as safe as any of the rest of ours, now might not be the very best time to stress you through hammering out the less, but not unimportant fine details, when safety was your your primary concern. I was making no assertions about any particular battery, or it's better or worse suitability to your particular needs. Absolute perfection of choice is not necessary to achieve very low risk. You should enjoy using your equipment without having a knot in your stomach every time you fire it in fear that something is wrong.

It isn't :)
 

susieqz

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i'm happy to be safe, but i'm sure curious about what absolute perfection of choice would be.
 

gsmit1

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i'm happy to be safe, but i'm sure curious about what absolute perfection of choice would be.
That would be the very best combination of capacity and amperage, giving the most battery life for the desired level of power. That's a great thing, but it's possible to be just as safe using a cell that is not as "perfectly" suited.

Whether you have that perfect cell for you right now or not, you ARE well within acceptable safety limits.

There's no such thing as infallible complete safety, in pretty much anything in life, including vaping ,but you are running as safe as any other safety minded vapor out there.
 

gsmit1

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i'm happy to be safe, but i'm sure curious about what absolute perfection of choice would be.
oh wait. You meant what actually IS the perfect choice for you? Maybe I misunderstood.

You have a pile of 30Qs. Those are great for your needs. What if somebody convinced you that a different battery would be a bit better? Would you dump all those and buy some of the others?

I am gently suggesting that you enjoy what you have as you learn more and then make choices as they present themselves. Nothing you learn will tell you that 30Qs were not working great for you .:)
 

gsmit1

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um, that guy said the electricity comes back to the battery after use, but my electricity turns into heat at the coil.
Electricity doesn't "turn into" heat in the coil. Electricity PRODUCES heat in the coil as it excites the metal through a type pf molecular friction as it passes through it under resistance.

@f1r3b1rd can explain that better than I can. He's an electrical engineer.
 

f1r3b1rd

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One thing I ALWAYS bear in mind when battery discussions come about is the simple fact that a large majority of people change their vape style over time. I couldn’t dream of using the old 10amp cells I started with in my provari for any of the gear I have now.
When I moved on from people those I had to replace all of my batteries.
With the 30q, you have some “growing room,” In my humble opinion that makes them even safer.
 

f1r3b1rd

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Electricity doesn't "turn into" heat in the coil. Electricity PRODUCES heat in the coil as it excites the metal through a type pf molecular friction as it passes through it under resistance.

@f1r3b1rd can explain that better than I can. He's an electrical engineer.

Think of a mod as the circuit below.
The bulb is the atty. the electricity does not turn into light (or heat).
A circuit is a closed system, the electrons go out of the battery, run through the circuit powering things and then returns to the battery. If it did not, you would have what we call an open circuit. In an open circuit the bulb won’t light, it must be completed. Which is what happens when you close the switch the light the bulb or fire the mod.
C0A1DF58-2D0B-45AA-8F29-BC49246E7D7E.png


Or we can think of it As the water tank.. if the pipe wraps around the water cycles through and powers a device synced into it, then the water moves back to the tank.
 

susieqz

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wait.
if current going in must equal current going out, how does a coil heat.
it must use something.
also, if the battery gets back all the current, why doesn't it stay charged forever?
 

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