ECF Refugee Thread All welcome though

[advancedvapesupply]

Been pretty good! Off work 'til Tuesday! Vacation don'tcha know! Just kinda bummed about the regs and the fight I haven't seen from the big guys in the industry like @advancedvapesupply (yes calling you out brother) Hohmtech, Evolve, ect..... Now I hope I'm not watching the right places but why haven't all the places that this shit affects the most banded together and at least made some PUBLIC noise about this Nazi bullshit! I've never been the athlete more of an athletic supporter, so to speak! I can get behind a movement that is already started! I just have a hard time getting myself started no less other people! So many people here are talking about this shit being inevitable how are we supposed to get anything done if even we are giving up! I know this is not everyone but even 1 is too many! @VaporJoe can't you get the big guys together with your blog or something? I Believe as an industry vaping has enough pull to get things done! Together we have to be a formidable force! But stocking up & figuring out how to get around the regs (although good ideas) shouldn't be our main focus! Can't say too much more than that! Love Y'all! Especially the goddesses!

We've tried to rally our customer base to do something. I've made a video on YouTube and we've emailed literally every customer we've ever had requesting they sign petitions, email their representatives, and fight against this, and gave them the links to make it easy for them to do so. We're always open to more ideas as to how we can fight this. I do know that aside from us. A couple companies have filed lawsuits against the fda over the deeming.

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[inspects]

Roxy, how are the children today?....do you put their cage outside during warm weather?

I used to put Bad Boy (my cockatiel) outside on a table at my rear patio, he loved it, especially when a Sparrow landed on top his cage, he would start singing away at his new found friend.

 

[MikeyConti]

Been pretty good! Off work 'til Tuesday! Vacation don'tcha know! Just kinda bummed about the regs and the fight I haven't seen from the big guys in the industry like @advancedvapesupply (yes calling you out brother) Hohmtech, Evolve, ect..... Now I hope I'm not watching the right places but why haven't all the places that this shit affects the most banded together and at least made some PUBLIC noise about this Nazi bullshit! I've never been the athlete more of an athletic supporter, so to speak! I can get behind a movement that is already started! I just have a hard time getting myself started no less other people! So many people here are talking about this shit being inevitable how are we supposed to get anything done if even we are giving up! I know this is not everyone but even 1 is too many! @VaporJoe can't you get the big guys together with your blog or something? I Believe as an industry vaping has enough pull to get things done! Together we have to be a formidable force! But stocking up & figuring out how to get around the regs (although good ideas) shouldn't be our main focus! Can't say too much more than that! Love Y'all! Especially the goddesses!

Agree and have wondered the same about the Major Companies.. I'm sure they GOT to be be planning something right??

 

[Boden]

We're always open to more ideas as to how we can fight this. I do know that aside from us. A couple companies have filed lawsuits against the fda over the deeming.

Unleash the lawyers!!!

I'm actually not kidding. All these petitions and email campaigns have just been background noise. The real game will happen in court.

You are on the right path.

 

[Boden]

Agree and have wondered the same about the Major Companies.. I'm sure they GOT to be be planning something right??

 

[jimbodaddy74]

Where is Andria's bag of dicks when we need it

I got this.

 

[haleysdadda]

We've tried to rally our customer base to do something. I've made a video on YouTube and we've emailed literally every customer we've ever had requesting they sign petitions, email their representatives, and fight against this, and gave them the links to make it easy for them to do so. We're always open to more ideas as to how we can fight this. I do know that aside from us. A couple companies have filed lawsuits against the fda over the deeming.

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I appreciate what you've done! I believe it will help but it just won't be enough! But I believe that ALL American vape suppliers/mfg, distributers, B&MS ect... should get together & create some kind of association That might even rival big tobacco! I realize that some of you are direct competitors but if there is nothing to compete for! You mentioned (or joked) earlier in another thread about calling your product high quality SS jewelery or some such & that may work for a while but what happens when the devices are unavailable to new vapers & your business becomes stagnant? Not trying to put you on blast brother! I think it's a stand-up thing to put yourself out amongst the crazies! Please just think about what I've said Please!

 

[advancedvapesupply]

I appreciate what you've done! I believe it will help but it just won't be enough! But I believe that ALL American vape suppliers/mfg, distributers, B&MS ect... should get together & create some kind of association That might even rival big tobacco! I realize that some of you are direct competitors but if there is nothing to compete for! You mentioned (or joked) earlier in another thread about calling your product high quality SS jewelery or some such & that may work for a while but what happens when the devices are unavailable to new vapers & your business becomes stagnant? Not trying to put you on blast brother! I think it's a stand-up thing to put yourself out amongst the crazies! Please just think about what I've said Please!

I agree with you. I'd love to work together to find a way to kill this.

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[JuicyLucy]

I got this.

You want fries with that?

 

[haleysdadda]

I agree with you. I'd love to work together to find a way to kill this.

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Well you must know other big vendors! Be the first to speak up! The people you know gotta to know others... See where I'm going with this?

 

[advancedvapesupply]

Well you must know other big vendors! Be the first to speak up! The people you know gotta to know others... See where I'm going with this?

I have spoken with a couple other online retailers about fighting, but we're still trying to figure out the best way to do that. There's no clear path ahead that I can see.

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[roxynoodle]

She has a bag full? Should I be scared?

I think she has a guillotine.

 

[JuicyLucy]

I think she has a guillotine.

And ain't ascared to use it neither

 

[roxynoodle]

Roxy, how are the children today?....do you put their cage outside during warm weather?

I used to put Bad Boy (my cockatiel) outside on a table at my rear patio, he loved it, especially when a Sparrow landed on top his cage, he would start singing away at his new found friend.

I don't. West Nile, predators, raptors. They all have full spectrum lights though.

 

[jimbodaddy74]

 

[MikeyConti]

May be be posted on different forums, but I see what you did there sir...

 

[jimbodaddy74]

You want fries with that?

View attachment 52131

I wasn't going to use that pic because I didn't want to get on whiskey's bad side.

 

[inspects]

I don't. West Nile, predators, raptors. They all have full spectrum lights though.

Bad Boy would start screaming when he saw an owl or hawk....then I would bring him inside....but he loved being outside when the coast was clear, yaking up a storm with the sparrows.....

 

[JuicyLucy]

I wasn't going to use that pic because I didn't want to get on whiskey's bad side.

eh, they are obvious fakes so whatever

 

[Moueix]

hahaha, Moo as a classy lecher. Me likee that

And I like you as a classy lechee. Shall we? Yes, lech.

 

[JuicyLucy]

And I like you as a classy lechee. Shall we? Yes, lech.

That's lecherix to you Moo

 

[haleysdadda]

I have spoken with a couple other online retailers about fighting, but we're still trying to figure out the best way to do that. There's no clear path ahead that I can see.

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That's why the more the merrier brother! You know I became the Machinist I am today not by knowing everything, but by knowing who to ask, & listening to everyone's advice & sorting out the shit might work!

 

[Moueix]

Until you have a house fire in the middle of the night. Hello, neighbors and firefighters! I'm really glad you're here!

"It looks like the homeowner has a handle on it"

 

[Moueix]

Afternoon fugees.......

Lovely sunny day here at death valley....bright sunshine as usual, upper 80's, humidity prolly in the teens.....

Ooooh, lovely place! Did all the wildflowers bloom already? What the hell are you doing in DEATH VALLEY? Say, you aren't SCOTTY, are ya? Nice castle!

 

[inspects]

Ooooh, lovely place! Did all the wildflowers bloom already? What the hell are you doing in DEATH VALLEY? Say, you aren't SCOTTY, are ya? Nice castle!

Just a nickname when summer begins....we been graced with beautiful weather considering it's May.

 

[Moueix]

We've tried to rally our customer base to do something ($0). I've made a video on YouTube ($0) and we've emailed literally every customer we've ever had requesting they sign petitions ($0), email their representatives, and fight against this, and gave them the links to make it easy for them to do so ($0). We're always open to more ideas as to how we can fight this. I do know that aside from us. A couple companies have filed lawsuits against the fda over the deeming.

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I think that the point that was trying to be made, was that for a multi-BILLION dollar industry, those actually doing the SELLING and GETTING the multi-billions, have a truly poor track record of putting our money where their mouth is, and actually trying to do anything besides asking their CUSTOMERS to write their reps, join CASAA, etc.

You guys seriously need some kind of trade organization, with dues, that will pay for lawyers and lobbyists to look out for YOUR interests. THAT is how shit is done in Washington these days. China will still be there, long after you are gone. Consumers have done a lot more caring about American suppliers, than American suppliers have done about their customers.

 

[advancedvapesupply]

I think that the point that was trying to be made, was that for a multi-BILLION dollar industry, those actually doing the SELLING and GETTING the multi-billions, have a truly poor track record of putting our money where their mouth is, and actually trying to do anything besides asking their CUSTOMERS to write their reps, join CASAA, etc.

You guys seriously need some kind of trade organization, with dues, that will pay for lawyers and lobbyists to look out for YOUR interests. THAT is how shit is done in Washington these days. China will still be there, long after you are gone. Consumers have done a lot more caring about American suppliers, than American suppliers have done about their customers.

I think you overestimate our companies size if you think we have millions of dollars to throw at the fda. I'm all for combining forces with other vape companies, but we are a small company. We simply can't afford to fight that battle by ourselves.

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[haleysdadda]

I think that the point that was trying to be made, was that for a multi-BILLION dollar industry, those actually doing the SELLING and GETTING the multi-billions, have a truly poor track record of putting our money where their mouth is, and actually trying to do anything besides asking their CUSTOMERS to write their reps, join CASAA, etc.

You guys seriously need some kind of trade organization, with dues, that will pay for lawyers and lobbyists to look out for YOUR interests. THAT is how shit is done in Washington these days. China will still be there, long after you are gone. Consumers have done a lot more caring about American suppliers, than American suppliers have done about their customers.

Thank you for the words I didn't have MOO!

 

[MikeyConti]

I think you overestimate our companies size if you think we have millions of dollars to throw at the fda. I'm all for combining forces with other vape companies, but we are a small company. We simply can't afford to fight that battle by ourselves.

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I dont believe they are calling you out or relying on you personally but, YOU shouldn't have to Fight alone. I think and know a lot of us are hoping that ALL of the Major Companies here COMBINE together to fight! No-one can do this their-selves as you have stated. And its not any "One" Company to blame, there should be a way to get you all together in simple terms. Even though that may not even be "Simple" itself.

And I for one appreciate what you and other companies alike are doing so far which is what you can at the capacity you have.

 

[advancedvapesupply]

I dont believe they are calling you out or relying on you personally but, YOU shouldn't have to Fight alone. I think and know a lot of us are hoping that ALL of the Major Companies here COMBINE together to fight! No-one can do this their-selves as you have stated. And its not any "One" Company to blame, there should be a way to get you all together in simple terms. Even though that may not even be "Simple" itself.

And I for one appreciate what you and other companies alike are doing so far which is what you can at the capacity you have.

It's one of the things that makes the vape industry great is also one of its biggest weaknesses right now. It's a very fragmented market, made up of lots and lots of small companies. Which in a free market (as in, not having a nuclear bomb dropped on it by the fda) is great for innovation and has created the amazing industry we have at the moment, but in the face of something like the fda deeming it becomes a huge weakness. There aren't enough juggernaut companies in this industry that can throw their weight and their money around to fight against big tobacco and the lobbies that did this. Saying unite and fight is beautiful in theory but not at all easy in practice. Truth is, for most vape companies I don't have a insider way to contact them, it'd have to be the same way any consumer would contact them. But I would still like to give it a try.

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[Moueix]

That's lecherix to you Moo

Sounds like you know how to whip up trouble!

 

[JuicyLucy]

Sounds like you know how to whip up trouble!

GGGRRRRR

 

[SirKadly]

We simply can't afford to fight that battle by ourselves.

I don't think he meant he expected you to do it yourself.

You guys seriously need some kind of trade organization, with dues, that will pay for lawyers and lobbyists to look out for YOUR interests.

This is the key. With that said, I know there actually is a coalition that has been formed. I believe CASSA, SFATA, and AVA are part of it, not sure about anyone else.

 

[Hank F. Spankman]

Blue Bunny is an evil, EVIL bitch

 

[SirKadly]

Sounds like you know how to whip up trouble!

Careful, have you looked at her avatar? I think she knows how to handle a gun. Just saying...

 

[haleysdadda]

I think you overestimate our companies size if you think we have millions of dollars to throw at the fda. I'm all for combining forces with other vape companies, but we are a small company. We simply can't afford to fight that battle by ourselves.

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Never has it been suggested that you or you're company could afford doing this by yourself! What's being asked is that all vape companies might join together! Also not saying you should have to start this yourself! But you or somebody you know in the industry must know somebody that can get this thing started! This is the first outcry like this I've seen anywhere like this!

 

[MyMagicMist]

Wow long day. I did something foolish. Got a $1 coupon for a Mark 10 kit. Well, it comes with an automatic king size battery and a single cartridge. When the coupon was read by the clerk, she got a pack of two more cartridges. I thought this a fairly nice deal, shoot $1 is not out much to try a product.

You got tobacco or menthol flavor. I took tobacco just to see. The cartridges have 2.4% nicotine per weight it says, I'd estimate the cartridge may hold 1 ml. Not taking it apart. You suck through a straw clogged up with some form of nasty taste. Gave me a buzz, or made me feel like passing out just from trying to draw any vapor. If you still enjoy that from cigarettes, there you go.

Figure many smokers have high blood pressure, just seems par for the course. No, would not suggest this as a viable option to quit with, or to switch too. If you drag off it leisurely, you may get some vapor but then it's really hot and scorches you with the nicotine over load. Reminds me of the Enjoy king kits. Reckon the internals are likely about the same as well.

The cartridges come $6 per two pack. As broad as long, buy a pack of cigarettes every two days. This is just my experience with it. Told my wife, there was no real vapor, no vaping it. She laughed. "It's an e-cig silly, not vaping." That fairly sums it up for me. Noted the $1 coupon kit is one sold regularly for $20. It was nice to get a price break to sample the product.

I do not desire reading as negative. It may seem I do. The product may suit those who progress to vaping, a stepping stone. Or, it may be the product is designed to lure smokers to remain smokers. Seeing who makes them, I'll digress. Will say the product so far does not seem to fit me. I like the cigarette feel, but not the restricted air flow, the overloaded nicotine punch. The taste is off too,the ingredients list PG, VG, nicotine and flavorings. Saw no listing of flavoring ingredients on their site.

Not interested in contacting them to ask either. The taste to me reminds me of cleaning out chicken houses. Again, this is simply my subjective opinion. I'm trying a product just to see if I enjoy it, or not. So far it seems like I do not. I may use it for a pinch but It's not going to be something in continuous use.

Otherwise today, I mowed using the weed eater. I helped move a pick up load of scrap chunk wood, loaded, unloaded. Me and wife cleaned off a porch not ours. I'm back to my Smok kit of a T-Dux 4 and XPro M22 that is swapped with the MVP 2. End of the month, going to order a nice modest, durable squonking kit. May order some nicotine, PG & VG. I can mix myself up some unflavored nicotine juice. Sure, I like a few, very few flavors. Can enjoy unflavored the same though. That's cheaper, gives me more accurate knowledge.

"Hey what you got in there?"

"Nicotine, PG, VG. Want exact amounts?"

 

[MikeyConti]

It's one of the things that makes the vape industry great is also one of its biggest weaknesses right now. It's a very fragmented market, made up of lots and lots of small companies. Which in a free market (as in, not having a nuclear bomb dropped on it by the fda) is great for innovation and has created the amazing industry we have at the moment, but in the face of something like the fda deeming it becomes a huge weakness. There aren't enough juggernaut companies in this industry that can throw their weight and their money around to fight against big tobacco and the lobbies that did this. Saying unite and fight is beautiful in theory but not at all easy in practice. Truth is, for most vape companies I don't have a insider way to contact them, it'd have to be the same way any consumer would contact them. But I would still like to give it a try.

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I can understand that completely, Companies everywhere but we haven't had time to get proper Structure built for us.. Reminds me of the 2nd Amendment which I help fight for a ton only we dont have Hugh Organizations with the same power to fight as hard. And Vaping has been NUKED in such little time compared to Firearm regulations!! It's truly terrible..

 

[advancedvapesupply]

I can understand that completely, Companies everywhere but we haven't had time to get proper Structure built for us.. Reminds me of the 2nd Amendment which I help fight for a ton only we dont have Hugh Organizations with the same power to fight as hard. And Vaping has been NUKED in such little time compared to Firearm regulations!! It's truly terrible..

The wider public is far FAR more apathetic about vaping than guns. And it's a new enough thing that the old farts in power just don't get it, and obviously don't get how big an industry it is..

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[Boden]

It's one of the things that makes the vape industry great is also one of its biggest weaknesses right now. It's a very fragmented market, made up of lots and lots of small companies. Which in a free market (as in, not having a nuclear bomb dropped on it by the fda) is great for innovation and has created the amazing industry we have at the moment, but in the face of something like the fda deeming it becomes a huge weakness. There aren't enough juggernaut companies in this industry that can throw their weight and their money around to fight against big tobacco and the lobbies that did this. Saying unite and fight is beautiful in theory but not at all easy in practice. Truth is, for most vape companies I don't have a insider way to contact them, it'd have to be the same way any consumer would contact them. But I would still like to give it a try.

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If I may make a suggestion, ask Dimitris Agrafiotis for some advice.

 

[MyMagicMist]

Never has it been suggested that you or you're company could afford doing this by yourself! What's being asked is that all vape companies might join together! Also not saying you should have to start this yourself! But you or somebody you know in the industry must know somebody that can get this thing started! This is the first outcry like this I've seen anywhere like this!

Check this out, & this too. Help is rising to engage. I think it would behoove smaller vendors to join with the vapor technology association, American Vaping Association, Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association. These groups are all coming together and forming a unified front to fight the F.D.A.

The biggest hardware manufactures from China are offering to help pay some of the legal needs. They want the estimated 9 million customers in America to remain customers, they want these customers happy and referring more customers. They also want small businesses like vape shops to thrive, it's all part of these companies being socially responsible.

Yes, of course, it is also good business sense. Can you fault them for wanting to pay employees, for enjoying a little benefit for themselves? I cannot, not when they have products which save lives, figuratively and literally. So, yes, let's get our vendors, our small vape shops coming together with these groups. Without their help neither the big companies nor small ones may continue having a market in America. Seems practical to me, join to help fight and share the victory, or go alone, face defeat alone.

No, I'm not guaranteeing victory. That is not for me or anyone to do yet. I do think victory will be had by vapers, by the big vape companies and smaller ones, shops. Still, I also know life can throw curves. My point is, it seems more likely victory comes with a team.

 

[advancedvapesupply]

Check this out, & this too. Help is rising to engage. I think it would behoove smaller vendors to join with the vapor technology association, American Vaping Association, Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association. These groups are all coming together and forming a unified front to fight the F.D.A.

The biggest hardware manufactures from China are offering to help pay some of the legal needs. They want the estimated 9 million customers in America to remain customers, they want these customers happy and referring more customers. They also want small businesses like vape shops to thrive, it's all part of these companies being socially responsible.

Yes, of course, it is also good business sense. Can you fault them for wanting to pay employees, for enjoying a little benefit for themselves? I cannot, not when they have products which save lives, figuratively and literally. So, yes, let's get our vendors, our small vape shops coming together with these groups. Without their help neither the big companies nor small ones may continue having a market in America. Seems practical to me, join to help fight and share the victory, or go alone, face defeat alone.

No, I'm not guaranteeing victory. That is not for me or anyone to do yet. I do think victory will be had by vapers, by the big vape companies and smaller ones, shops. Still, I also know life can throw curves. My point is, it seems more likely victory comes with a team.

Not a single argument there. Im talking with a couple large vape retailers about possibly meeting in person and talking through our options. Some will fight, some will not, I personally want to be in the first group. Even if vape companies don't have money to throw at the problem, we do have tax money we pay which i statement in itself.



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[Moueix]

I think you overestimate our companies size if you think we have millions of dollars to throw at the fda. I'm all for combining forces with other vape companies, but we are a small company. We simply can't afford to fight that battle by ourselves.

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That's the problem. Instead of all of the wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few companies like MOST industries, this one is severely fragmented amongst thousands of small operations, each one not willing to spend a dime, and waiting for the OTHER guys to do something.

I think if you all figured out what percent of gross sales is normal to commit to lobbying and trade interest endeavors, and you all willing gave that percent to a general fund (administered by someone like Casaa) to point those resources effectively, you would have something. But the American vaping industry has had easily 4 years to figure this out, and groups like SFATA have failed miserably, mostly it seems, because all the juice companies, vape shops, and hardware suppliers want someone else to solve their problems.

To be perfectly clear, the FDA has NO real power or jurisdiction over CONSUMERS, Nor over China or any number of other countries who are producing vape equipment, nicotine, etc. with the small exception of being able to ask HomeLand Security to check for incoming shipments. And we know what HomeLand Security thinks of the FDA's attempts to make rules for an industry that they themselves admit, they don't understand yet. The only REAL power the FDA has, is in shutting down AMERICAN suppliers. I'd think that would trouble American suppliers at LEAST as much as vapers. 4 years, wasted.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Check this out, & this too. Help is rising to engage. I think it would behoove smaller vendors to join with the vapor technology association, American Vaping Association, Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association. These groups are all coming together and forming a unified front to fight the F.D.A.

The biggest hardware manufactures from China are offering to help pay some of the legal needs. They want the estimated 9 million customers in America to remain customers, they want these customers happy and referring more customers. They also want small businesses like vape shops to thrive, it's all part of these companies being socially responsible.

Yes, of course, it is also good business sense. Can you fault them for wanting to pay employees, for enjoying a little benefit for themselves? I cannot, not when they have products which save lives, figuratively and literally. So, yes, let's get our vendors, our small vape shops coming together with these groups. Without their help neither the big companies nor small ones may continue having a market in America. Seems practical to me, join to help fight and share the victory, or go alone, face defeat alone.

No, I'm not guaranteeing victory. That is not for me or anyone to do yet. I do think victory will be had by vapers, by the big vape companies and smaller ones, shops. Still, I also know life can throw curves. My point is, it seems more likely victory comes with a team.

Bummer.

Were they out of Blu?

 

[MyMagicMist]

Bummer.

Were they out of Blu?

No hon, that weren't it. I just got the coupon spat out at me randomly from being a smoker in the past. Marlboro looking out for me. "Here try this nice nearly free sample, bet you get hooked." Um, I'll try it, but I vape. Like I said, it might get used by me in a desperate pinch. I don't like them. Tried the Blu once, didn't like it either. Think they do put formaldehyde in these, but as the flavorings were not listed ... dee da dee. Think I'm having a migraine now from that crap. First in years, if so. Oh well, nothing a good vaping won't help clear up.

I was trying it out of fairness. Wound up realizing why I came to second, third generation PVs, mods, tanks, RDAs. I want the nicotine but I'm thinking if they say 2.4% by weight they're saying 24% but hell I'm not sure. I know 18% nicotine is 0.18, and understand now how that is used for making juice. The Mark 10, yuck it was too much nicotine and if not that, too much of a booster in it.

 

[advancedvapesupply]

That's the problem. Instead of all of the wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few companies like MOST industries, this one is severely fragmented amongst thousands of small operations, each one not willing to spend a dime, and waiting for the OTHER guys to do something.

I think if you all figured out what percent of gross sales is normal to commit to lobbying and trade interest endeavors, and you all willing gave that percent to a general fund (administered by someone like Casaa) to point those resources effectively, you would have something. But the American vaping industry has had easily 4 years to figure this out, and groups like SFATA have failed miserably, mostly it seems, because all the juice companies, vape shops, and hardware suppliers want someone else to solve their problems.

To be perfectly clear, the FDA has NO real power or jurisdiction over CONSUMERS, Nor over China or any number of other countries who are producing vape equipment, nicotine, etc. with the small exception of being able to ask HomeLand Security to check for incoming shipments. And we know what HomeLand Security thinks of the FDA's attempts to make rules for an industry that they themselves admit, they don't understand yet. The only REAL power the FDA has, is in shutting down AMERICAN suppliers. I'd think that would trouble American suppliers at LEAST as much as vapers. 4 years, wasted.

If you think this doesn't trouble us, youre wrong. It definitely does. Beating up on the American companies for not doing enough isn't a fair statement though. We all have to work together. Consumers and companies.

Bummer.

Were they out of Blu?

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[MyMagicMist]

That's the problem. Instead of all of the wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few companies like MOST industries, this one is severely fragmented amongst thousands of small operations, each one not willing to spend a dime, and waiting for the OTHER guys to do something.

When small appear large. When large appear small. Set no plans.

 

[Moueix]

When small appear large. When large appear small. Set no plans.

Certainly nothing against the Commercial poster here, in fact, he seems more engaged in the battle than most. But now that the topic has been brought up, should this thing actually come to pass, I think the lingering emotion among vapers is honestly going to be "We sure tried like hell, but they didn't do much to help themselves".

 

[AndriaD]

I heard there's actual health benefits to sleeping in the nude.

You sleep better, for one thing -- no fighting unnecessary garments when they get annoyingly twisted around your body. I've slept sans clothes since I was old enough to realize how utterly stupid it was to undress... then dress again just to go to bed. About age 15, I think.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Unleash the lawyers!!!

I'm actually not kidding. All these petitions and email campaigns have just been background noise. The real game will happen in court.

You are on the right path.

Hey Boden! How nice to see you here!!!

Andria