Yep used to work next door to a Krispy creme bakery
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- Thread starter The Cromwell
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Oh I meant Pastafarian as in the church of the flying spaghetti monster. Its an actual religion, some of the beliefs upon which it is based are that the burden of proof rests on the person making unfalsifiable claims not the one who refutes them, that their god has bigger balls than yours, and my favorite part is that is was founded as a direct opposition to the decision Kansas made to allow young earth creationism to be taught in schools.
AndriaD
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I've never felt any doubt about the *existence* of god... I just remain extremely skeptical that ANY human can have the FIRST clue about the NATURE of god -- human senses and understanding are simply too meager. For me, this is where faith comes in, and though I haven't been a christian in over 30 yrs, one bible quote that was a favorite of my grandfather's always sticks with me: "Now I see thru a glass, darkly, but then, face to face; then shall I know, even as I am known."
I can't really claim to be a true agnostic, because I do have that faith, and a few others, but I'm probably closer to an agnostic than to any modern-day "religion." I feel like the Shakespearian character in Hamlet, with that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio..."
I guess you can say that I'm ok with not knowing, because I have faith that one day, I'll know a lot more.
Andria
CS Lewis actually had an interesting take on this. He converted from atheism to belief in God based on rational thinking rather than faith. His book Mere Christianity is an interesting read and even includes this quote: "I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of evidence is against it." He concluded that belief was entirely rational.
Good morning yall.
What a day its been already. 2 sumptin this morning I was just starting to sleep well and was woken by Rascal crying at the door. I thought he had to pee bad which doesnt make sense, he was out for his last trip around 9 pm and he never does that but still I got up and put on my shoes, grabbed the flash light and took him out. Little shit took off like a rocket right for the neighbors fence and I took off after him, then he runs way down in the yard so I jumped on the riding mower and chased him. He was trying to find a way thru the fence and I dont trust the neighbor not to shoot him for being in his yard so I was worried pretty bad.
I was able to get him back towards the house but it took a lot of cussing at the top of my lungs. Then I seen the problem, the neighbors dog was in my yard and she is probably in heat and she was calling to him. Finally got him in the house and he wasnt happy, he didnt get the girl and papa spanked his big ass.
I had a doctors appointment today at 11:15, maybe was running on half an hours sleep and knew I needed more and was pretty wound up at that point so took something to chill and get to sleep. Next thing I know its 11:30 and my mom is calling me to see how I am doing. Ooops, missed the doctors appointment
So that is how my day is going so far. Hope yalls is much better.
What a day its been already. 2 sumptin this morning I was just starting to sleep well and was woken by Rascal crying at the door. I thought he had to pee bad which doesnt make sense, he was out for his last trip around 9 pm and he never does that but still I got up and put on my shoes, grabbed the flash light and took him out. Little shit took off like a rocket right for the neighbors fence and I took off after him, then he runs way down in the yard so I jumped on the riding mower and chased him. He was trying to find a way thru the fence and I dont trust the neighbor not to shoot him for being in his yard so I was worried pretty bad.
I was able to get him back towards the house but it took a lot of cussing at the top of my lungs. Then I seen the problem, the neighbors dog was in my yard and she is probably in heat and she was calling to him. Finally got him in the house and he wasnt happy, he didnt get the girl and papa spanked his big ass.
I had a doctors appointment today at 11:15, maybe was running on half an hours sleep and knew I needed more and was pretty wound up at that point so took something to chill and get to sleep. Next thing I know its 11:30 and my mom is calling me to see how I am doing. Ooops, missed the doctors appointment
So that is how my day is going so far. Hope yalls is much better.
I am not convinced that CS Lewis was very rational.
Having only read CS Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia I had just assumed he was always a believer. Aslan isnt even a subtle metaphor for "god", specifically Jesus.
Good point.
Written well after his conversion.
Well, of course not everyone has to agree with him, as indicated in the quote I gave, but if you read his apologetic works they are very rational and logical compared to those of most other Christian apologists.
I had no idea. Very interesting though. I knew he was friends with Tolkien who was Catholic(If Im not mistaken), and that they shared many ideas about how best to create their respective works of fantasy.
They were on the faculty at Oxford together, and in part it was discussions with Tolkien that led him to Christianity. He went from being an Atheist to being a Theist in 1929, but it was a couple more years before he became a Christian. The Chronicles of Narnia were written sometime in the 1940s and 50s. I believe you are right about Tolkien being Catholic.
I didn't miss that, but it wasn't relevant to why I posted it
. I posted it to show my reasoning behind thinking Myst's posts leaned more towards agnostic then athiest.I wouldn't say Theism brings close mindedness....that is purely an organized religion thing
And is there much real difference between theism and organized religion?I didn't miss that, but it wasn't relevant to why I posted it
I wouldn't say Theism brings close mindedness....that is purely an organized religion thing
AndriaD
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Yes, I think so -- I believe very much in god, but belong to no organized religion, which are all about the money like anything else in the modern world.
Andria
Significant difference. There are a great many people who believe in some sort of higher power without being part of any religious organization.
Generalize much? There are just as many close minded people outside of the church as there are in the church.
While there are some like that for sure, none of the churches I have ever attended were about the money, and most of them barely paid the bills. And most pastors make fairly meager salaries.
a world of difference.
Theism is simply the belief in a god or gods, no putting a name to it/them required. No dogma required. Just some level of belief.
Organized religion attempts to use peoples theistic belief as a form of control over them. "If you truly believe, you MUST do this, you CAN'T do that, think like us or.....CONSEQUENCE!!!"
Speaking of close mindedness...
Really Kadly, that is a very rookie debate mistake. To say X is more of a trait of Y then Z, is NOT to say X can't exist outside of Y.
Considering I was talking about RELIGIOUS close mindedness, my comment stands. Someone who is indoctrinated into an organized religion is FAR more likely to be close minded towards other theological beliefs then someone who is simply a theist with no set religion.
Then show me how I am wrong........
what is control? Is not placing rules for behavior and thought a form of control?
Is not the threat of an unpleasant afterlife for NOT following aforementioned rules a "CONSEQUENCE!!!" and also a form of control?
I said they aim to control, I didn't apply any motive behind the control.
So what part of that is untrue?
Your exact words were "that is purely an organized religion thing" which does, in fact, say X can't exist outside of Y. As someone who has spent the past 10 years questioning everything I believed and having come full circle back to Christianity recently, I can tell you that i have encountered a great deal of RELIGIOUS close mindedness among people who are not involved in organized religion (yes, even agnostics and atheists can express RELIGIOUS close mindedness) and while it certainly exists in the church, not to the degree that you are implying.
In fact I'm beginning to think there is more of it right here in this thread than there is in organized religion. Because it feels like the only acceptable choice among people in this thread is to NOT be a part of any religion.
Most humans 'need' to follow something. A flaw in the human psyche? A pack mentality thing?
I dunno I don't have that being an alien.
I dunno I don't have that being an alien.
The part where you said they aim to control. You have obviously had a very different experience than I have if that is what you think the aim of organized religion is. I can't speak for every religion out there, but Christianity is NOT about "the threat of an unpleasant afterlife for NOT following aforementioned rules"
again, I was talking about theological close mindedness, which I thought obvious from the context of my post.
How many "theists" wars/deaths have been started in the name of "there is a god or gods"...now how many in the name of Allah/Jesus/etc etc etc......Though my comment was tongue in cheek, and a tad over dramatic, it's point stands. Do I think all practitioners of organized religion are close minded? No. Do I think no one can be close minded outside of organized religion? No. Do I think it more likely to find inside of organized religion? Absolutely.
As to your last statement, not a SINGLE person here has said your choice is unacceptable for YOU. To NOT be close minded, you must be able to accept our voicing of disbelief as much as you would accept someone voicing their belief.
How many "theists" wars/deaths have been started in the name of "there is a god or gods"...now how many in the name of Allah/Jesus/etc etc etc......Though my comment was tongue in cheek, and a tad over dramatic, it's point stands. Do I think all practitioners of organized religion are close minded? No. Do I think no one can be close minded outside of organized religion? No. Do I think it more likely to find inside of organized religion? Absolutely.
As to your last statement, not a SINGLE person here has said your choice is unacceptable for YOU. To NOT be close minded, you must be able to accept our voicing of disbelief as much as you would accept someone voicing their belief.
AndriaD
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Christianity itself is a form of control -- do this, and you'll have a reward. Do that other thing, and you'll go to hell. Offering rewards and punishments is a very elementary form of control. And this particular form of control is why I left the christian church or belief system 100%. Because Soul is immortal and eternal; the gift is already given. And a god who would send his own to some form of eternal punishment isn't a god I can ever believe in (and certainly not worship! And.. a jealous god? C'mon. that's a HUMAN failing.. a *god* should be above that, or it's not a god.)
It's social control, in a very pure form. Fortunately society has moved beyond where it really means anything; the threat of ostracism means nothing at all to an iconoclast loner.
Andria
Is it a flaw in the human psyche or an evolution in our mentality as a direct result of our yearning for a better understanding of our purpose and place in the Universe. For the longest time the idea of "god" or "gods" answered questions that were at the time unanswerable. We are reaching a point where the god theory is no longer a sufficient answer to most(if not all) of the big questions. Thousands of years of thinking "god did it" cant be simply undone in our minds just because better answers have become available in the last 5 or 6 hundred years(and all of the better answers are opposed by most churches). Its more as if our brains evolved to embrace faith even in the face of evidence to the contrary. We still feel the need for faith even though it no longer fully provides the answers it once did.
Well. All this is very interesting. However, Christianity is the religion where we have a savior. Jesus Christ. And in HIM, not by "works" we have eternal life. It's a free gift. FREE. Of course there are "rules" He has set --- > for our own good and happy lives. Like a father or mother, teaching their children.
Thou shalt not kill, etc. Note the two most important ones have "love" in them:
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets
Once we are saved, it becomes our will to live as He wants. But, even if you were Mother Teresa and didn't accept Jesus, it wouldn't be enough to earn your way into Heaven.
Thou shalt not kill, etc. Note the two most important ones have "love" in them:
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets
Once we are saved, it becomes our will to live as He wants. But, even if you were Mother Teresa and didn't accept Jesus, it wouldn't be enough to earn your way into Heaven.
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I have always accepted and respected the various points of view here. I don't care where anyone else falls on the wide spectrum of religion and spirituality. Accept your voicing your disbelief? Not a problem. Accept you attacking all organized religion with broad generalities that don't match my experiences? Not gonna happen.
YOU said my choice was unacceptable with your statements on organized religion.
As I stated, that isn't even close to the version of Christianity I know.
Oh yea, and it doesn't say that if you break one of these commandments, you're going to hell. There is forgiveness to the ones who ask. And God is smart enough to know none of us are perfect and are going to break one or all. That's why we have Jesus.
The other half brought home cinnamon cake donuts from the market today. You know - those ones that come 13 in a box for 99 cents.
Never got the burn in hell for all eternity sermon?
Were Jesus to show up today the US would stop him at the border.Oh yea, and it doesn't say that if you break one of these commandments, you're going to hell. There is forgiveness to the ones who ask. And God is smart enough to know none of us are perfect and are going to break one or all. That's why we have Jesus.
Yep I was taught that anything fun was a sin.
And you go to hell for sins.
16 years of forced indoctrination and it did not stick.
Aliens are that way.
Just watched the plumes show and it is starting to suck. Those guys are burned out.
Amen Brother!
Now a days just being a liberal guarantees you burn in hell with most churches. Not all but most.
Where in the good book does it say the bad will go to burn in hell?
Hell is a translation of Hades which is a translation of Sheol. Greek mythology had Hades as the dark god of the underworld who was a brother of Zeus.
Scriptures tell that we all will go upon death to Sheol aka Hades aka Hell, the place of the dead. I think in Corinthians it says where we will be aware of nothing at all.
Hell is a translation of Hades which is a translation of Sheol. Greek mythology had Hades as the dark god of the underworld who was a brother of Zeus.
Scriptures tell that we all will go upon death to Sheol aka Hades aka Hell, the place of the dead. I think in Corinthians it says where we will be aware of nothing at all.
You are still placing an unassigned by me motive to control. I already showed examples of how any religion controls people. Control doesn't have to mean nefarious or bad, it just is.
I am now in the agnostic theist camp...but I have tried on many religions, including Christianity. My experience (multi-denominational) has led me to my view point.
Hey my wife goes to church (Methodist) sometimes and I go with her.
I KNOW what I heard.
Plus I was raised up in the same denomination of church as Sarah Palin.
I KNOW what I heard.
You my friend are full of shit on this item.
The bible has little to do with some religious sects.
What the bible says about hell?
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...ers saying liberals will burn in hell&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=d...ers saying liberals will burn in hell&f=false
But I didn't. I merely post from my view point......ever seen the drawing of two people standing on the opposite side of a number on the ground? One side it looks like a 6, the other a 9. BOTH are right, for the VIEWPOINT of the individual. Instead of getting caught up in me saying 6, so I MUST not think a 9 is there, step back and see that my opinion shouldn't matter so much on something no one...NO ONE can prove either way, what works for you, doesn't for me, simple. Doesn't mean I think YOU are wrong for following YOUR belief. What I think, is that your belief is wrong for me.
Oh, and I FULLY stand behind my consequence statement btw. You may prefer to focus on the love, care, feel good side of Christianity, but your religions guide book is full of consequence for various infractions. Don't forget Jesus said he was here to fulfill the law, not abolish it....and that one should do ALL that is written in "his fathers word"
I have a logical issue with following a god that says we all need saving from sin, because we are ALL tainted by the "original sin"...one which he set up in the first place.
Oh, don't forget, there IS an unforgivable sin in the bible.
On these two commandments hang the law means that if you do those two properly, you will already be doing the other ones...not that you don't have to worry about the other ones.
I firmly believe we were created (I believe in a hybrid "divine evolution", that is, we followed an evolutionary path, but one that was guided by a higher being to reach where we are now.....who knows, IT may not be done yet)....too much order in a universe that tends to entropy. I just don't think any religion of man has it right (though some kernels of truth I think can be found throughout all of them).
JuicyLucy
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One of the most enlightening books I ever read: The Year of Living Biblically
A non-religious Jew lives for six months following all the rules in the new testament, and six month from the old.
His wife gets PISSED and sits on all the furniture when it comes to the part that a man can't sit where a menstruating woman has also sat. And the order to seek out adulterers and stone them?
Yowza!
http://ajjacobs.com/books/the-year-of-living-biblically/
A non-religious Jew lives for six months following all the rules in the new testament, and six month from the old.
His wife gets PISSED and sits on all the furniture when it comes to the part that a man can't sit where a menstruating woman has also sat. And the order to seek out adulterers and stone them?
Yowza!
http://ajjacobs.com/books/the-year-of-living-biblically/
anywaaaaayyyyys........
as much as I like to debate theological ideals, I suppose the wise thing to do would be to leave well enough alone? I think we have reached the point where often someone gets offended, and I wouldn't wish to do so inadvertently here.
as much as I like to debate theological ideals, I suppose the wise thing to do would be to leave well enough alone? I think we have reached the point where often someone gets offended, and I wouldn't wish to do so inadvertently here.
Bob, how you was raised dont matter. Where your wife goes to church doesnt matter either as well as where ever Sarah Palin goes. I know many people across this nation from many religious dominations. Working in th oil fields for 30 years lets you meet and get to know many people form all over and I have never ever heard anyone proclaim someone would go to hell just because they are a liberal.
I am offended.
But it is based on my avatar and political stance so I understand.
And I will change neither.
But it is based on my avatar and political stance so I understand.
And I will change neither.
