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EU banning sucralose sweetener on liquids

jose_berria

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Hello everyone!

I’m quite new to this forum, so let me introduce myself first. My name is Jose, I’ve been vaping for 4 years now, and never smoked a cigarette since then. I’m from Spain, Madrid.

I’m a bit concerned about what’s happening in EU lately regarding sucralose. A lot of the liquids that we all love contain this sweetener and apparently they are banning it in Europe.

This all started when A&L liquids changed their formula to the “green edition”. They have liquids like Oni or Ragnarok that are quite famous, and the sucralose free version taste way worse than the original formula.

Does anybody know the exact law that bans this sweetener? Do you guys have any insights on the health effects of heated sucralose? Is it happening in your area as well?
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Thanks a lot!


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5150sick

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Hi Jose :wave: Welcome to the forum.

That's not good at all about the formula change.
I'm in the US, it seems like they are trying to ban everything here.:facepalm:

I don't know much about the laws in your Country.
I found this online but it doesn't give a clear answer.
I hope you can find an eliquid that suits your needs.
 

nadalama

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Hello Jose, welcome to Vaping Underground.

I remember hearing and reading many years ago that scientists had found it unsafe to subject the artificial sweetener aspartame to heat. Before that time, in grocery stores in the United States, there had been bags of aspartame similar to sugar that were marketed for baking.

I hope not, but suppose it is possible that similar findings now apply to sucralose -OR- some sucralose sweeteners are mixed with aspartame, and the aspartame is the real cause of the issue.

A good many vapers in the United States are using certain types of liquid stevia for sweetening e-liquid now. Perhaps you could find a supply of a safe brand and use it to sweeten your pre-made e-liquid there, or you could always learn to make your own!

Good luck with it.

I have not heard of anything like this in the US, but our government is planning to abolish sweetened, flavored e-liquids and much of the vape gear that has been on the market in recent years, so it does not surprise me that we have no news of it.
 

Carambrda

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I hope not, but suppose it is possible that similar findings now apply to sucralose
Similar findings now apply to sucralose, but the researchers did not expressly state that baked goods with sucralose are harmful. Instead, they only raised that as a possible concern, as not a lot is known about whether the resulting amount of harmful substances exceeds the danger limit, or whether the level of harmfulness is going to be completely negligible. (I suspect the latter, as long as you're not overheating the juice for prolonged periods... more on that in my next paragraph.)

The researchers did, however, expressly state that thermal decomposition of sucralose is a gradual process. It has occurred to me from first-hand experience that so-called "coil killer" juices (juices that tend to gunk up the coils noticeably much faster than normal) are juices that use a typical combination of both high sweetener content (presumably sucralose, as it appears to be the most popular choice of sweetener used in commercial juices that taste sugary-sweet) and high VG at 80% VG or higher. Also from first-hand experience, I have learned that there exist a few tricks that can be applied to mitigate the gunking of the coils, significantly. (Even, if the juice used is the "coil killer" type.) Aside from keeping the wicks well saturated of course, one of these tricks, and by far the most effective one that I have found, is to simply avoid slow boiling of the juice. The quicker the juice is evaporated after it heats up, the shorter the time period during which the aforementioned gradual process of decomposition can start happening.

Fast evaporation can still nevertheless create a new set of problems to try to tackle. Part of the trick, then, is to use coils with properties that allow the heat energy to be transferred into the juice not just rapidly, but uniformly enough that localized heat buildup on the surface of the coils will also be avoided... which immediately helps to explain why I do what I do with advanced coil building on an RBA and optimised airflow characteristics. Further, as ridiculous as this may seem to most who are unfamiliar with the term, me being HSP (a specific bio-medical condition not recognized as an illness), I can sense when irritants and potentially harmful byproducts are present in the vapor at thresholds well below that which the average person is capable to sense and detect, even though I won't go as far as to claim that my personal method is 100% failsafe. It does, however, introduce some thoroughly exquisite, warm, sucralose-laced food for thought...
 

Smigo

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When I started vaping I went into everything I could find about good and bad in regards to DIY.
This is where I ended up.
Everything I do is way way better than smoking. By miles, or Ks as we say down under.
In regards to sweeteners I read and read and settled on, not because they gave the info I Wanted, but was the most common sense and respected info.
Even if I used say Cap SS, it was ridiculously safer than smoking, it was safer than going for a walk past a hundred plus cars on a city street each day.
I am an asthmatic and used to get it bad. Stupid to smoke as one I know but not too many who know me would argue im not stupid :giggle:
Vaping gives me zero asthma. Only time it does is if I use concentrates that contain high levels of DAAPs. I say high as I try to avoid all. Just now n then I find out some I have used that are ok have ultra low levels. Basically I use those that have none added and just may have trace natural levels, but again none added.
Clear as mud :)
 

jose_berria

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Similar findings now apply to sucralose, but the researchers did not expressly state that baked goods with sucralose are harmful. Instead, they only raised that as a possible concern, as not a lot is known about whether the resulting amount of harmful substances exceeds the danger limit, or whether the level of harmfulness is going to be completely negligible. (I suspect the latter, as long as you're not overheating the juice for prolonged periods... more on that in my next paragraph.)

The researchers did, however, expressly state that thermal decomposition of sucralose is a gradual process. It has occurred to me from first-hand experience that so-called "coil killer" juices (juices that tend to gunk up the coils noticeably much faster than normal) are juices that use a typical combination of both high sweetener content (presumably sucralose, as it appears to be the most popular choice of sweetener used in commercial juices that taste sugary-sweet) and high VG at 80% VG or higher. Also from first-hand experience, I have learned that there exist a few tricks that can be applied to mitigate the gunking of the coils, significantly. (Even, if the juice used is the "coil killer" type.) Aside from keeping the wicks well saturated of course, one of these tricks, and by far the most effective one that I have found, is to simply avoid slow boiling of the juice. The quicker the juice is evaporated after it heats up, the shorter the time period during which the aforementioned gradual process of decomposition can start happening.

Fast evaporation can still nevertheless create a new set of problems to try to tackle. Part of the trick, then, is to use coils with properties that allow the heat energy to be transferred into the juice not just rapidly, but uniformly enough that localized heat buildup on the surface of the coils will also be avoided... which immediately helps to explain why I do what I do with advanced coil building on an RBA and optimised airflow characteristics. Further, as ridiculous as this may seem to most who are unfamiliar with the term, me being HSP (a specific bio-medical condition not recognized as an illness), I can sense when irritants and potentially harmful byproducts are present in the vapor at thresholds well below that which the average person is capable to sense and detect, even though I won't go as far as to claim that my personal method is 100% failsafe. It does, however, introduce some thoroughly exquisite, warm, sucralose-laced food for thought...

Wow, thanks a lot for all that info!
It’s kinda ironic how they are banning vaping stuff just because they are concerned it may be bad, and they don’t ban any tobacco related products when they know for sure it’s killing people. I guess the money does rule the world...


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jose_berria

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When I started vaping I went into everything I could find about good and bad in regards to DIY.
This is where I ended up.
Everything I do is way way better than smoking. By miles, or Ks as we say down under.
In regards to sweeteners I read and read and settled on, not because they gave the info I Wanted, but was the most common sense and respected info.
Even if I used say Cap SS, it was ridiculously safer than smoking, it was safer than going for a walk past a hundred plus cars on a city street each day.
I am an asthmatic and used to get it bad. Stupid to smoke as one I know but not too many who know me would argue im not stupid :giggle:
Vaping gives me zero asthma. Only time it does is if I use concentrates that contain high levels of DAAPs. I say high as I try to avoid all. Just now n then I find out some I have used that are ok have ultra low levels. Basically I use those that have none added and just may have trace natural levels, but again none added.
Clear as mud :)

Yes, I completely agree it’s better than smoking no matter the sweetener’s effect on health, but I was wondering whether we can use another sweetener that appears to be less harmful. I’m trying to buy some non-sucralose sweetener but in the packaging, at least here in Spain, it doesn’t say what exact sweetener they have used to produce it...
Even if it’s way better than smoking, I’d like to vape as healthy as possible


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Smigo

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Yes, I completely agree it’s better than smoking no matter the sweetener’s effect on health, but I was wondering whether we can use another sweetener that appears to be less harmful. I’m trying to buy some non-sucralose sweetener but in the packaging, at least here in Spain, it doesn’t say what exact sweetener they have used to produce it...
Even if it’s way better than smoking, I’d like to vape as healthy as possible


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Yep, I 100% get where you are coming from.
I personally have tried numerous Stevia sweeteners which by my own searches (not claiming they are the be all end all of searches as they were just mine) those I tried all had off after tastes, grassy, herby, bitter or just off that lingered for 10 to 20 minutes making me want to use mouth wash or something to make it go away.
The only 2 that to MY taste were sugar no off after taste were/are Capella Super Sweet and Purilum Super Sweet. Both I know are not Stevia but Sucralose. Here in Australia I can no longer get Purilum, just Cap.
I like Purilum though I believed it was the same ingredients, because it was a bit more diluted and easier to work with drops wise. But both were like sugar in taste. To date, and im open to recomendations, nothing else tastes like them.
But I again get you 100% in wanting the safest of all and if you find a true sugar tasting one please by all means tag me in and let me know as it will be much appreciated.
As far as I could gather Stevia is the best stability heat wise but again I could not find one that didnt taste horrible like I previously described.
Good luck and if you find one let me know, id appreciate it, iv been searching for ages myself. ?
 

The Cromwell

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Yep, I 100% get where you are coming from.
I personally have tried numerous Stevia sweeteners which by my own searches (not claiming they are the be all end all of searches as they were just mine) those I tried all had off after tastes, grassy, herby, bitter or just off that lingered for 10 to 20 minutes making me want to use mouth wash or something to make it go away.
The only 2 that to MY taste were sugar no off after taste were/are Capella Super Sweet and Purilum Super Sweet. Both I know are not Stevia but Sucralose. Here in Australia I can no longer get Purilum, just Cap.
I like Purilum though I believed it was the same ingredients, because it was a bit more diluted and easier to work with drops wise. But both were like sugar in taste. To date, and im open to recomendations, nothing else tastes like them.
But I again get you 100% in wanting the safest of all and if you find a true sugar tasting one please by all means tag me in and let me know as it will be much appreciated.
As far as I could gather Stevia is the best stability heat wise but again I could not find one that didnt taste horrible like I previously described.
Good luck and if you find one let me know, id appreciate it, iv been searching for ages myself. ?

I cannot tolerate any artificial sweetener either in vape or food/drink. I have issues with the horrible after taste and it causes physical issues as well. Especially if vaped.
I use Nu Naturals Nu Stevia liquid. Like it very well. I use 6 drops in a 120 ml bottle of Cromwell's Custard.
I dunno probably 1 ml?

 

jose_berria

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I just contacted what i think it is the biggest online store for DIY liquids here in Spain. They don’t have any sweetener without sucralose. Kind of disappointing.

Is the normal stelvia, like the one produced for food, usable for vaping? Maybe i should try other countries’ stores and pay the shipping, probably much safer


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The Cromwell

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I just contacted what i think it is the biggest online store for DIY liquids here in Spain. They don’t have any sweetener without sucralose. Kind of disappointing.

Is the normal stelvia, like the one produced for food, usable for vaping? Maybe i should try other countries’ stores and pay the shipping, probably much safer


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Nope the wal mart/grocery store stevia is crap for vaping.

tried all that and found the NU natureals at a health food store and it is nice. Link in post above.
 

The Cromwell

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It is available in amazon.es, even prime. I’ll definitely try that! Thank you!


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You are welcome. Note that I use 6 drops from the bottle in 120 ml for a pretty sweet vape.

If you like it pass the word around to folks over there.
 

jose_berria

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You are welcome. Note that I use 6 drops from the bottle in 120 ml for a pretty sweet vape.

If you like it pass the word around to folks over there.

I already did!

I plan on doing my own iced lemon liquid, with stelvia instead of sucralose, so I’ll try with just a drop in batches of 20ml and adjust everything until i get it right. Thanks again!


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The Cromwell

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The Stevia may get strange if one tries to do candy flavors. Don't know never tried that.
 

Carambrda

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Wow, thanks a lot for all that info!
It’s kinda ironic how they are banning vaping stuff just because they are concerned it may be bad, and they don’t ban any tobacco related products when they know for sure it’s killing people. I guess the money does rule the world...


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Not only are they not banning combustible tobacco, but also they are actively promoting it to kids by letting kids who experiment with vaping get used to tobacco flavor, as that's the real reason why they're not banning tobacco flavored juices. The vast majority of kids who vape regularly are kids who have smoked combustible tobacco cigarettes, and, the flavor of these same cigarettes did not stop them from getting theirself addicted to tobacco smoke so the whole idea is to boost the chance of these kids becoming a dual user.
 

The Cromwell

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And on sweeteners and tobacco flavored ejuice...
I use a bit of Brown Sugar Extract in my Cromwell's Camel ejuice.
It apparently is real sugar as it crystallizes in the freezer but allowed to warm up and shaken it is fine again.
 

Smigo

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I cannot tolerate any artificial sweetener either in vape or food/drink. I have issues with the horrible after taste and it causes physical issues as well. Especially if vaped.
I use Nu Naturals Nu Stevia liquid. Like it very well. I use 6 drops in a 120 ml bottle of Cromwell's Custard.
I dunno probably 1 ml?

Thanks. Sounds good. I'll look that up and get some. ?
 

Smigo

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@The Cromwell
Hi. So have found where to get it. Cheapest for that bottle I can source is $25 Aud. Not too bad as I've spent more for stevia before.
I see it contains 20% grain alcohol. How long do you leave the top off of your mix for it to evaporate out? None of the ones tried had alcohol in them to know.
 

The Cromwell

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Hi. So have found where to get it. Cheapest for that bottle I can source is $25 Aud. Not too bad as I've spent more for stevia before.
I see it contains 20% grain alcohol. How long do you leave the top off of your mix for it to evaporate out? None of the ones tried had alcohol in them to know.

Actually that is strange for me on the alcohol content. I basically do not drink because I am one of the rare ones who can actually taste alcohol and it tastes really bad to me. I have the bitter Gene.
However with that stevia I do nothing special for the alcohol and taste nothing.
There is also a non alcohol version of the NU stevia, but I cannot vouch for it as I have only used the alcohol one. I just found the alcohol version first and it worked so well, why try something else?
 

The Cromwell

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It will be interesting with the FDA and GRAS food/beverage flavorings being used in vaping...
GRAS is Generally Regarded As Safe to eat not inhale though.
Example one can eat Vitamin E very safely but as we saw inhaling it was Very bad.

And for me personally I can eat the GRAS flavorings just fine but inhaling some of the ingredients could turn into a life threatening allergic reaction.
I now I am in the minority on that as with most things :)
 

Smigo

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It will be interesting with the FDA and GRAS food/beverage flavorings being used in vaping...
GRAS is Generally Regarded As Safe to eat not inhale though.
Example one can eat Vitamin E very safely but as we saw inhaling it was Very bad.

And for me personally I can eat the GRAS flavorings just fine but inhaling some of the ingredients could turn into a life threatening allergic reaction.
I now I am in the minority on that as with most things :)
I have flavouring allergies. Had no issues with Flavour Art except for when I first started and tried Flash for the throat hit. Whoah, had me reaching for an inhaler badly that one. It contains capsaicin, any wonder!
Nic River so far are all fine with me. So far FLV too.
Had a few chocolates that gave me asthma but cant recall exactly which brand they were. Was either Wonder Flavours or Mollinberry.
 

The Cromwell

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I have flavouring allergies. Had no issues with Flavour Art except for when I first started and tried Flash for the throat hit. Whoah, had me reaching for an inhaler badly that one. It contains capsaicin, any wonder!
Nic River so far are all fine with me. So far FLV too.
Had a few chocolates that gave me asthma but cant recall exactly which brand they were. Was either Wonder Flavours or Mollinberry.

thing is I have no other allergies and am not asthmatic.
heck poison ivy does not even bother me.
 

Smigo

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thing is I have no other allergies and am not asthmatic.
heck poison ivy does not even bother me.
I read once a couple of years ago a person like yourself saying they had no allergies but some flavours made them feel ill and affected the throat. You are not alone, there is at least another one out there somewhere. As I recall they were in Europe or the UK. At first when the person mentioned it he tried varying VG & PG ratios but ended up narrowing it down to the certain flavours he was using. Main thing as you know is to narrow it down and avoid.
?
 

The Cromwell

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I read once a couple of years ago a person like yourself saying they had no allergies but some flavours made them feel ill and affected the throat. You are not alone, there is at least another one out there somewhere. As I recall they were in Europe or the UK. At first when the person mentioned it he tried varying VG & PG ratios but ended up narrowing it down to the certain flavours he was using. Main thing as you know is to narrow it down and avoid.
?
Yep have chatted with a handful online.
I suspect my problem has to do with artificial sweeteners. As I can tolerate no cotton candy, funnel cake, etc flavorings and most fruit flavorings give me grief.

Actually with artificial sweeteners I cannot tolerate for the horrible after taste for eating or drinking either.
I have the bitter gene and am a bit of a super taster and virtually ANY cayenne/hot stuff causes me extreme pain. Not just hot but pain.

And due to the bitter gene I also actually taste alcohol, horrible stuff. NO alcoholics among us with the bitter gene.
Actually researching alcoholism is what led to the discovery of the bitter gene.
Wine would be good if not for the alcohol taste.
And hops in beer is just horrible esp when combined with alcohol flavor.
 

The Cromwell

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Oh and if I vape 3-5 ml of an offending flavoring I get serious oral, throat and lung inflammation and oral and throat swelling. Not sure about lung swelling but breathing becomes more labored...
Also TOTAL loss of taste for maybe 2 days. The inflammation/swelling takes a bit less to go down as long as I stop the problem flavorings.

I have a theory that vapers tongue is a very less severe reaction to the same ingredient/s.

I never get vapers tongue vaping juice made with flavorings that I have found to be safe for me.
 

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