Few questions on flavors from new DIYer

[BLiZZ]

Hoping for a bit of guidance here as I venture further into the flavor creation. I have about 6 flavors I make regularly that are really nice. I started branching out and have run into a problem. Here are my questions:

1. I made a flavor called caramel bites (should be like the caramel squares candies) it is 12% TFA Caramel and 2% TFA Ethyl Maltol. I have made it 4 times now in varying lengths of steeping (0-5 days) None of them taste like caramel, rather, they all taste like pecans or peanuts. It's very off putting to say the least. What am I doing wrong?

2. I made a strawberry-banana using TFA Ripe Banana and TFA Strawberry ripe, and I've also made an Orange-Pineapple-Banana using TFA Orange Mandarin, TFA Pineapple and TFA Ripe Banana. The smells are amazing, the hit is perfect and the taste when drawing is fantastic, however, after exhale the aftertaste is very perfumey, dare I say near floral. I am guessing this is the banana as it is the only thing that is common in the two mixes. If it wasn't for the perfume taste left over in my mouth these would probably be my most favorite flavors. Is there anything I can do to get rid of this after-taste?

And lastly, when I am creating new flavors, I try to follow a recipe, but sometimes I just have an idea, when I don't follow a recipe I try to stick to about 12% flavors total, 14% if there is 3 or more. I don't have any reason to back this up other than the recipes I have followed tend to stick to this measurement. Is this a good practice? I am basically teaching myself here. If I am using too much flavor or something that would help, as my stock of flavors does tend to go rather quickly (I usually make 100ml at a time of known/trusted recipes 10ml for my trials, lol). Advice on new, non-recipe flavors I create would be helpful.

 

[Whiskey]

Hi and welcome to VU, Blizz, We have a great DIY section here with members that are awesome at DIY, I will move the thread there so you can get help from the DIY pro's, Enjoy the forum!!

 

[kimsmm]

Hoping for a bit of guidance here as I venture further into the flavor creation. I have about 6 flavors I make regularly that are really nice. I started branching out and have run into a problem. Here are my questions:

1. I made a flavor called caramel bites (should be like the caramel squares candies) it is 12% TFA Caramel and 2% TFA Ethyl Maltol. I have made it 4 times now in varying lengths of steeping (0-5 days) None of them taste like caramel, rather, they all taste like pecans or peanuts. It's very off putting to say the least. What am I doing wrong?

2. I made a strawberry-banana using TFA Ripe Banana and TFA Strawberry ripe, and I've also made an Orange-Pineapple-Banana using TFA Orange Mandarin, TFA Pineapple and TFA Ripe Banana. The smells are amazing, the hit is perfect and the taste when drawing is fantastic, however, after exhale the aftertaste is very perfumey, dare I say near floral. I am guessing this is the banana as it is the only thing that is common in the two mixes. If it wasn't for the perfume taste left over in my mouth these would probably be my most favorite flavors. Is there anything I can do to get rid of this after-taste?

And lastly, when I am creating new flavors, I try to follow a recipe, but sometimes I just have an idea, when I don't follow a recipe I try to stick to about 12% flavors total, 14% if there is 3 or more. I don't have any reason to back this up other than the recipes I have followed tend to stick to this measurement. Is this a good practice? I am basically teaching myself here. If I am using too much flavor or something that would help, as my stock of flavors does tend to go rather quickly (I usually make 100ml at a time of known/trusted recipes 10ml for my trials, lol). Advice on new, non-recipe flavors I create would be helpful.

1. Have you tried using different atties? sub-ohms? Also, try varying temps. for example: I have a coffee vape that just peaks at 60watts on my Smok sub ohm tank that no other atty can get. At 60w, I taste a rich, almost chocolate caramel taste. I have tried RDA's RTAs and different atties and it just doesn't get it until I stick it in my Smok tank.
2. If you are getting perfumey taste then try lowering the percentage on the flavor culprit. That is the only thing I can offer on this.
3. That12-14% is not gonna hold up if you are using stronger concentrates. You will have to give us the name of the concentrates. For example, If you are mixing TPA or Capella that percentage is spot on....some recipes call for higher or lower percentages. If you mix stronger flavor concentrates like Flavour Art or say Inawera then that is really high IMO.

I'm not much of a creator...I am like you are - as I try and stick to a recipe and vary a little. But just from trying to keep up with my reading and learning from the good people here, this much I can feel good on offering some advice. Good luck!

 

[Heabob]

TFA Ripe Banana

That one is quite a powerful flavor and many here, including myself, prefer others.
It will also melt the rubber inside your syringes, so you may be tasting rubber...
Or, if you must, keep it at or below 1% and use drops, measure by weight, or glass syringes.
TFA Banana Cream is better, and more forgiving I think.
Anywhere from 5-10%.
And you could even add a drop or 2 of the Ripe Banana if needed.

Caramel is kind of tough for me to taste also.
TFA Caramel Original is my fav so far.
You can add some FW Natural Butterscotch to help it out.
And some TFA Brown Sugar.
I'd drop the EM down to 0.5-1% though.

 

[BLiZZ]

Thanks for the help and advice. I am stuck on this caramel and may just scrap it from my list. Not a real loss as I was only using it to get away from my more favorite fruits for a day or two.

I will check with my vendor if they have the banana cream. I am sure they do. I may mess around with the caramel since I have it, and just try different things. Who knows, I may come up with the new best flavor ever recipe. *snicker* Nothing with the mods seems to change the taste, and that's what's important to me. I am not going to switch mods tanks or dip to sub-ohms for a single flavor. If it doesn't work with my set up, I just won't make it

Until I get the banana cream shipped I will try with lower doses, maybe add some enhancers or ethyl maltol. I guess it's time to play around some more.

Thanks again guys, I am sure I'll have more Qs later on.

 

[PreparationHero]

Thanks for the help and advice. I am stuck on this caramel and may just scrap it from my list. Not a real loss as I was only using it to get away from my more favorite fruits for a day or two.

I will check with my vendor if they have the banana cream. I am sure they do. I may mess around with the caramel since I have it, and just try different things. Who knows, I may come up with the new best flavor ever recipe. *snicker* Nothing with the mods seems to change the taste, and that's what's important to me. I am not going to switch mods tanks or dip to sub-ohms for a single flavor. If it doesn't work with my set up, I just won't make it

Until I get the banana cream shipped I will try with lower doses, maybe add some enhancers or ethyl maltol. I guess it's time to play around some more.

Thanks again guys, I am sure I'll have more Qs later on.

I wouldn't use EM in recipes like a crutch, it takes away from flavors and just makes it sweeter, so if you have a recipe that doesn't work, its just going to make a recipe that doesn't sweeter. UNLESS it's a cheesecake/yogurt flavor, it will cut the cheesy foot flavor. I was going to say more but bob read my mind and said what I was thinking nearly word for word, so his advice is solid. Also you could just get tfa caramel candy flavoring and say fuck it.

The perfume is just too much concentrate. You should be checking flavor notes on here,elr, reddit etc to find recommend mixing percentages.

But another way to tone it down may be to add tfa smooth in VERY low percentages, try one drop per ten ml.

Low percentages can be more potent than high percentages, it just depends on the recipe, concentrate, etc. Like I said, read flavor notes, it will save you time and money. Also if you want to get into making recipes from scratch, you should really try solo flavor mixes first to get used to concentrates.

 

[BLiZZ]

I will find those flavor notes, thank you. I have a stable of about 5 or 6 flavors that are always spot on and easy to make. I used some left over flavors to try and make the Orange/Pineapple/Banana because I have always liked that mix of juices. Needless to say my first attempt wasn't as expected. The second attempt, however, I did follow a recipe. Same result. This is how I concluded the perfume was from the banana.

Oddly, the recipe I followed (using the same flavors I had - all TFA) used more banana and less pineapple. I will try again and cut the banana way down. See how that works while I order some banana cream.

Thanks for the input and advice.

P.S. I don't use EM... didn't even know what it was to be honest. It was called for in the caramel recipe, so that's why I have it. I have no plans of using it like a chef uses garlic.

 

[PreparationHero]

I will find those flavor notes, thank you. I have a stable of about 5 or 6 flavors that are always spot on and easy to make. I used some left over flavors to try and make the Orange/Pineapple/Banana because I have always liked that mix of juices. Needless to say my first attempt wasn't as expected. The second attempt, however, I did follow a recipe. Same result. This is how I concluded the perfume was from the banana.

Oddly, the recipe I followed (using the same flavors I had - all TFA) used more banana and less pineapple. I will try again and cut the banana way down. See how that works while I order some banana cream.

Thanks for the input and advice.

P.S. I don't use EM... didn't even know what it was to be honest. It was called for in the caramel recipe, so that's why I have it. I have no plans of using it like a chef uses garlic.

Sorry I should have explained, em is a flavored sweetener, and like all sweeteners some people think that by adding as much as possible, it's making a better recipe. 9/10 premium juices follow this route.

Also remember banana cream is also cream. Orange and pineapple are citrus, and mixing citrus doesn't always go with cream, so I would small batch it.

 

[nightshard]

Too much EM mutes the flavor.
Also what a lot of people don't realize is that quite a lot of flavors contain EM as an ingredient.

Here's a list of all TFA flavors containing EM:
https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=4940-11-8

 

[kimsmm]

Too much EM mutes the flavor.
Also what a lot of people don't realize is that quite a lot of flavors contain EM as an ingredient.

Here's a list of all TFA flavors containing EM:
https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/specsheetlist.aspx?cas=4940-11-8

Makes me wonder if this is why people use such high percentages of TFA

 

[nightshard]

Makes me wonder if this is why people use such high percentages of TFA

A lot of flavors from a lot of different manufacturers contain EM.
I just presented the TFA list because that's what I have access to.

 

[Heabob]

Makes me wonder if this is why people use such high percentages of TFA

Many recipes I've seen posted elsewhere that were 20%+ total flavoring usually have both EM & sweetener added.
Usually in percents rather than drops, which is why, I suspect, the higher amounts of flavorings are needed.
Generally I can cut the total amount used in half, at least, just by reducing the EM and/or sweetener to 1-2 drops per 15ml, or not using any at all.
But normally I don't use EM anyway, but sometimes just use diluted Stevia, or Sweetener in drops.
Kind of prefer using some Marshmallow, FA Meringue, and even Strawberry Ripe in small amounts, instead.
Many flavors are kinda sweet already, and for those using higher VG, it will also contribute to the sweetness.

 

[BLiZZ]

Y'all are great. I have so much to learn. The learning is fun though! Thanks for all the input so far!

 

[VinceV1]

0-5 days of steeping is not a lot.

 

[PreparationHero]

0-5 days of steeping is not a lot.

Not enough for some, more than enough for others.

 

[nightshard]

Even if all the flavors you use have 5% EM (which they don't) and you use 10% flavor, you would end up with 0.5% EM in the mix.
I would say that max EM percentage to use is 1%, which means you can still add 0.5% on top of the flavors.
If you like it sweeter you can use 0.5% stevia on top of that.

 

[BLiZZ]

Again, I appreciate the replies and information. As for the EM, I do not add it to anything. As y'all have said and I have researched it is just a sweetener, and at that, not always the best choice. So far, with the flavors I have made (mostly fruit flavors) they are sweet enough as they are (well, as they are mixed anyway) But the caramel recipe I had called for it, so I got it. Again, the main problem was the caramel didn't taste like caramel, it tasted like a handful of mixed nuts. Which... when expecting a nice sweet caramel, is not a good thing. Also note, that the EM I have is a flavor, like the caramel, from TFA (or CAP, I can't remember at the moment) and not the crystals to make my own. I'm not that brave of a chemist.

As for the steeping, I understand (somewhat) that it is mainly to allow the flavors to be absorbed by the VG, which makes sense. I have also come to understand that there is no universal method for steeping and that there are just as many opinions as there are methods of steeping. All the recipes that I follow have a steep time and so far all of them have been 1 - 5 days. I have seen flavors that call for 14+ days but I haven't attempted them as of yet. I am more of an instant gratification guy

 

[Heabob]

Again, the main problem was the caramel didn't taste like caramel, it tasted like a handful of mixed nuts. Which... when expecting a nice sweet caramel, is not a good thing.

You may need to try several different brands to find one that works.
I like TFA Caramel Original best myself, but Caramel & Butterscotch flavors are not quite like the read deal tho.