Flashlight battery explosions

[Robert B]

Being somewhat of a flashlight fan, I own 5, two which are highly modded, and have learned from the Vape industry to use only brand name batteries like Samsung & LG, and match the continuous discharge rates with the light being used. It seems as though the Flashlight crowd is just starting to catch on to the "high drain vs Mah" thing, that most vaper's have known for a long time.

Just as there are re-wrap batteries with exaggerated specs aimed at vapers, the same is true for Flashlight fans.

Once again, the villan is cheap chinese made batteries and charging units as this article points out. Although not publicized by the media, there are many incidences of battery venting and explosions in the flashlight world. Probably as many if not more than the vape world.

http://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...e-light-nearly-burned-down-this-riders-house/

 

[nophix]

It's been a problem in the RC world, too. Lots of guys buy high dollar rigs, and put cheap Chinese liPo packs in them.


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[nophix]

If people think these small batteries go bang, they should see the big boys! And guys will toss them into their backpacks and walk around banging them together up and down the trails all day.


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[Robert B]

It's been a problem in the RC world, too. Lots of guys buy high dollar rigs, and put cheap Chinese liPo packs in them.

The thing about lipo packs in RC's, is they get crashed into trees at 30mph, or flown into the ground from 1000 feet. Otherwise, lipo packs have proven to be pretty safe in the vape industry. I just bought my son a Traxxas RC truck for Christmas. You can be sure the pack will be charged in a charging bag out in the garage, and not inside the house.

 

[dr_rox]

Being somewhat of a flashlight fan, I own 5, two which are highly modded, and have learned from the Vape industry to use only brand name batteries like Samsung & LG, and match the continuous discharge rates with the light being used. It seems as though the Flashlight crowd is just starting to catch on to the "high drain vs Mah" thing, that most vaper's have known for a long time.

I don't know what flashlight/laser forums you hang out in, but candlepower and a couple others have been doing discharge curves and testing batteries for high output for those fire-starting leds.
The go-to battery and flashlight testing site was around long before vaping became popular, too.
They have even offered up circuits and chargers for the hi cap hi discharge lg's that need to be charged to 4.35v before they were on the market.

 

[dr_rox]

Once again, the villan is cheap chinese made batteries and charging units as this article points out. Although not publicized by the media, there are many incidences of battery venting and explosions in the flashlight world. Probably as many if not more than the vape world.

I would like to see the pix of unit, batteries and circuit inside light - otherwise there's just a lot of arm-waving.
I have some lights that have charging ports.
A few have absolutley no circuitry inside to monitor charge. They just use a ~5v wall wart.
These lights in all cases should only let you put in a battery with a button, which in normal circumstances means it is protected - there is a circuit for limiting current and stopping an overcharge condition. But, this is not the case. Some batteries, like the ones that end in 'fire', have the buttons but no circuit.
Problems arise when battery has no button (or protection) and light manuf. allows flat tops to work, or light is modified to use flat tops and are charged in the light's pack with a wall wart.
What may happen going forward, is to make them idiot proof. Cells will be spotwelded in and charger or internal circuit will assure safety. Which will suck.
Flat-top batteries were never meant to be end-user availablein that form - they were meant to be assembled into packs.
If you want to see something pretty amazing - pull apart a cell fone battery - they had issues early in their deployment with fires. Most batteries are just taped together inside a frame with an extremely compact protection circuit inside.

 

[Neunerball]

The thing about lipo packs in RC's, is they get crashed into trees at 30mph, or flown into the ground from 1000 feet. Otherwise, lipo packs have proven to be pretty safe in the vape industry. I just bought my son a Traxxas RC truck for Christmas. You can be sure the pack will be charged in a charging bag out in the garage, and not inside the house.

I have several R/C collective pitch Helicopters. However, the only time I'm worried about a LiPo pack "exploding" is after a really hard crash. Otherwise, I'm just charging the packs, maybe keeping an eye on them while charging.

 

[Robert B]

I don't know what flashlight/laser forums you hang out in, but candlepower and a couple others have been doing discharge curves and testing batteries for high output for those fire-starting leds.
The go-to battery and flashlight testing site was around long before vaping became popular, too.
They have even offered up circuits and chargers for the hi cap hi discharge lg's that need to be charged to 4.35v before they were on the market.

Both CPF and BLF. I realize there are a few guys doing power curve testing and such, and many who pay attention to batteries, but the majority seem to gloss over that info judging from the re-wrapped batteries they post about. Many recommend some of the most shit batteries I've seen.
Your right about them being around long before vaping, but vaping has long surpassed. They worry about an 8amp draw, we worry about 30amps.

 

[Robert B]

I have several R/C collective pitch Helicopters. However, the only time I'm worried about a LiPo pack "exploding" is after a really hard crash. Otherwise, I'm just charging the packs, maybe keeping an eye on them while charging.

I don't know enough about the RC world to speak about it to much, but shouldn't one worry about collective impact damage done to lipo packs over a period of time? I saw a guy take an F1 RC car doing about 50mph crash it head on into a concrete curb. The car disintegrated. The lipo pack ended up about 100 feet away in someone's front yard. He thought nothing about using that lipo again. Didn't occur to him the possibility of internal damage to the cell. Should he have been concerned? heck, I don't know. But I have seen quite a few videos of lipo's, not exploding, but on fire while venting. Hence my thoughts about charging in the garage inside a charge bag !!

 

[Neunerball]

I don't know enough about the RC world to speak about it to much, but shouldn't one worry about collective impact damage done to lipo packs over a period of time? I saw a guy take an F1 RC car doing about 50mph crash it head on into a concrete curb. The car disintegrated. The lipo pack ended up about 100 feet away in someone's front yard. He thought nothing about using that lipo again. Didn't occur to him the possibility of internal damage to the cell. Should he have been concerned? heck, I don't know. But I have seen quite a few videos of lipo's, not exploding, but on fire while venting. Hence my thoughts about charging in the garage inside a charge bag !!

That's why I'm worried after a crash. Actually, you want to get the LiPo out of the Helicopter ASAP. It happens, that they can start burning, due to the internal damage.

 

[MrScaryZ]

Being somewhat of a flashlight fan, I own 5, two which are highly modded, and have learned from the Vape industry to use only brand name batteries like Samsung & LG, and match the continuous discharge rates with the light being used. It seems as though the Flashlight crowd is just starting to catch on to the "high drain vs Mah" thing, that most vaper's have known for a long time.

Just as there are re-wrap batteries with exaggerated specs aimed at vapers, the same is true for Flashlight fans.

Once again, the villan is cheap chinese made batteries and charging units as this article points out. Although not publicized by the media, there are many incidences of battery venting and explosions in the flashlight world. Probably as many if not more than the vape world.

http://www.singletracks.com/blog/mt...e-light-nearly-burned-down-this-riders-house/

Most Flashlights are not high drain and the vaping industry did not teach the flashlight crowd at all.

 

[Robert B]

Most Flashlights are not high drain and the vaping industry did not teach the flashlight crowd at all.

Your right, most flashlights are low drain. I didn't say the vape industry was teaching the flashlight crowd anything. I did say, from my observations, it seems like the vape industry has surpassed the light industry about battery knowledge in general, and for that very reason.

 

[dr_rox]

Your right, most flashlights are low drain. I didn't say the vape industry was teaching the flashlight crowd anything. I did say, from my observations, it seems like the vape industry has surpassed the light industry about battery knowledge in general, and for that very reason.

If you've realy watched this industry evolve, it is a symbiotic relationship with other industries, with the same growing pains, failed experiments and assumptions, and the same problems with humans that still can't operate a remote control for their tv. SETI would find nothing.

First boost circuits in mods were borrowed pwm for led lights.
Cartos were 1.8 to 1.5 ohms.
Then rebuildables appeared, and the 'new' driving circuits were borrowed from the r/c crowd.
We are finally seeing purpose built stuff for this industry. oorah.

It took several years for power tool manufacturers to embrace lithium tech because of safety issues. They waited. Their packs are carefullay designed and assembled and with dedicated chargers, lower possibility for misuse and problems.
NO LOOSE CELLS.
Humans will put them in wrong, charge them wrong, or just do things they weren't designed for. Let me say engineers aren't immune to fuckups. Boeing was warned by a company I did some work for about the Lithium packs they used on their jets. Didn't take long for fires to appear, despite our warnings.

 

[Robert B]

I don't think mech mods were borrowed technology from anything other than lighting up an estes toy rocket nichrome wire.. lol

Was talking about battery safety more than anything, which appears to have sunk in more with the vape crowd than the flashlight crowd judging from the amount of battery malfunctions that frequent the flashlight world and never get media attention.

 

[MrScaryZ]

I don't think mech mods were borrowed technology from anything other than lighting up an estes toy rocket nichrome wire.. lol

Was talking about battery safety more than anything, which appears to have sunk in more with the vape crowd than the flashlight crowd judging from the amount of battery malfunctions that frequent the flashlight world and never get media attention.

I do believe your intentions are good but LI-Ion technology and its safety was thought out long before anyone sported a vape mod of any type the technology was invented long ago and is constantly being worked on for number one Industrial purpose

 

[dr_rox]

I don't think mech mods were borrowed technology from anything other than lighting up an estes toy rocket nichrome wire.. lol

Note i said boosted circuits.
Jeez. some of the first mods were flashlights with 510's on them.
Pocket penlights resemble first ego's.
That estes thing substitutes nichrome wire for a bulb.

Back when lithium cells first came out, YOU COULD NOT BUY FLAT TOP LI CELLS. Only nimh unless you were a manuf or remanuf of packs.
Two reasons - manuf did not want the liability, and there were legal restrictions/guidelines since people were found to be cooking these batteries for lithium happy pills.
I've been around this battery biz for a while.
The chinese opened the floodgates, so vapers must tread carefully. The chinese are not concerned w/ end user safety, just making money (hence the button top unprotected '-fire' batteries). They can operate outside of the law and manuf restrictions. Many people do not understand electronics and they want to protect their hobby and health. I do commend the way that knowledgeable vapers are trying to educate others as to battery safety. It is necessary to protect the industry.
Furthermore, it all depends upon what level and where you have expertise in, when you say 'FL'ers are just realizing the safety issues'. Just like the casual users that get a kick out of blinding peeps with their lights (or lasers), the vape world has the cloudchasers that irritate the same way. Forgive them, as they do not know why, how or what they are doing. IMHO, they are just abusing a tool and do not understand the consequences, until something bad DOES happen. Call me an old fart, I don't give a shit.

 

[Robert B]

Note i said boosted circuits.
Jeez. some of the first mods were flashlights with 510's on them.
Pocket penlights resemble first ego's.
That estes thing substitutes nichrome wire for a bulb.

Back when lithium cells first came out, YOU COULD NOT BUY FLAT TOP LI CELLS. Only nimh unless you were a manuf or remanuf of packs.
Two reasons - manuf did not want the liability, and there were legal restrictions/guidelines since people were found to be cooking these batteries for lithium happy pills.
I've been around this battery biz for a while.
The chinese opened the floodgates, so vapers must tread carefully. The chinese are not concerned w/ end user safety, just making money (hence the button top unprotected '-fire' batteries). They can operate outside of the law and manuf restrictions. Many people do not understand electronics and they want to protect their hobby and health. I do commend the way that knowledgeable vapers are trying to educate others as to battery safety. It is necessary to protect the industry.

I wasn't talking about boosted circuits, battery tool packs, history of vaping, or anything of the sort. I guess I didn't make myself clear enough. Was simply talking about when a battery incident happens with a vape mod, it gets a lot of media attention, but when a flashlight blows, it gets none. Having been on the FL forums for some time, I've seen more reported battery incidences, than I have on VU, and reddit combined. I also see a lot more cheap batteries sported there than here, which leads me to believe, vaper's seemed to have in general, learned ohms law and how to apply it at a very rapid pace. Perhaps by necessity since bad things can happen quicker. In some of the FL threads talking about battery safety, I see some people talk about "the vapers use this or that, maybe we should do the same".

It was just an observation, nothing more.

 

[dr_rox]

It was just an observation, nothing more.

Understood.
I see it as evolution.
Some mutations become dead ends.
R?C crowd abandoned cylindrical cells because of load limitations, vaping is headed that way.
I went down that evolutionary path a long time ago before all these boosted circuits appeared. No regrets.
Circuits can be retrofitted as weak/unreliable link has been the cells.

The casual LED crowd is now interested in battery safety, since their 'coils' have evolved into sub-ohm loading.
Vapers got to that adaptive pressure quicker.
I love COB leds.

I had to deal with manuf stuff in china.
We had to get stuff CE, UL and RoHs compliant. Back then they did not want to use UL rated wiring or 94vo circuit board material.
Why?
Because they didn't have any, was hard to get, and their biz model was do it cheap.
And, you had to keep hi-potting product since they would change shit without notification (we ran out of wire but wanted to make deadlines).
Unacceptable. You should expect to get what you pay for.

Which leads to the chinese messing witht the gene pool and Darwinism. Look athe the hoverboard fires.
Seems as though the non-UL and non-RoHs clones have the telomere issues.
Educated consumers makes sure the product has those ratings. They are not handed out lightly.
So now the lawsuits begin.
"we never said they were safe"
LOL.
"but there was an expectation of safety"
"no, that was an assumption"

Don't assume anything.
Rewrapping sucks without diligent testing.
I have to tip my hat to Jon that does this while wading in shark infested water.

Don't think you will see legit safety compliance on flat top cells like this:

 

[dr_rox]

I do believe your intentions are good but LI-Ion technology and its safety was thought out long before anyone sported a vape mod of any type the technology was invented long ago and is constantly being worked on for number one Industrial purpose

Exactly. The common thread in many emails people report from Sony inquiries is that the batteries were not intended to be sold as single consumer cells. The safety is employed via assembled pack systems by a manuf.