I had forgotten how much $$$

[PuffPuffPass]

I broke down and went to the local B&M today. Tired of cleaning etc etc during juice testing. I broke down and grabbed a Mutation V4 and a few rolls of wire.

While I was there, ONE customer spent $136 on juice. JUST JUICE! And they comped her 2 more bottles. I just stared, because I was crying over my piddly ass $50 layout.

But, just damn! I'm so glad I DIY

 

[Zamazam]

The days of boning customers on juice prices is slowly coming to an end.

 

[PuffPuffPass]

The days of boning customers on juice prices is slowly coming to an end.

I've noticed that many who sell online have moved to the reduced pricing. And it's truly about time. While some people come to vaping to quit smoking. I don't see the need to break the bank while you have them. Before sub ohm, a customer might only do 2 bottles a week. But now, whoa doggie. A 30ml bottle a day isn't unheard of.

 

[Jimi]

That's why I love DIY and you know what's in it

 

[robot zombie]

The thing that I've never gotten about it is why they don't go for volume. It always seemed to me that with the high margin on premium priced juice, you could knock 7-10 dollars off of the price and probably double your volume, which means more money overall. People always talk about overhead when they talk about expensive juice, but I've never seen it that way.

The bottom line is that with the inherently high profit margin and market stability of juice sales, you could push for volume and make a ton more money than you can selling an expensive bottle here and there. If you set the price too high, people will buy far less overall. It's no wonder some of these guys can't afford to stay in business. People can't afford to buy their products!

Like, imagine the sales potential in marketing what was a $22 bottle of juice for $11. With the current state of the market, I think it's a safe bet that you would more than double your sales. People would flip for a ten-dollar bottle of premium juice right now.

I just don't get it, man... ...how do these juice makers not see how much they are losing in sales by gouging their customer bases for a 1000% mark-up? MtBaker gets it. I mean, their juice isn't exactly top-shelf, but look at how successful they've been just by being the cheapest supplier of e-liquid. Volume is their MO. They price to keep you buying more and buying more often. It's a very effective strategy that allows for much faster growth. Bigger returns for larger amounts of smaller sales.

The more you sell, the more you make. That's my take on the current market, anyway. If there is anything that clones and cheap juice vendors have taught us, it's that this strategy can work very well.

 

[PuffPuffPass]

The thing that I've never gotten about it is why they don't go for volume. It always seemed to me that with the high margin on premium priced juice, you could knock 7-10 dollars off of the price and probably double your volume, which means more money overall. People always talk about overhead when they talk about expensive juice, but I've never seen it that way.

The bottom line is that with the inherently high profit margin and market stability of juice sales, you could push for volume and make a ton more money than you can selling an expensive bottle here and there. If you set the price too high, people will buy far less overall. It's no wonder some of these guys can't afford to stay in business. People can't afford to buy their products!

Like, imagine the sales potential in marketing what was a $22 bottle of juice for $11. With the current state of the market, I think it's a safe bet that you would more than double your sales. People would flip for a ten-dollar bottle of premium juice right now.

I just don't get it, man... ...how do these juice makers not see how much they are losing in sales by gouging their customer bases for a 1000% mark-up? MtBaker gets it. I mean, their juice isn't exactly top-shelf, but look at how successful they've been just by being the cheapest supplier of e-liquid. Volume is their MO. They price to keep you buying more and buying more often. It's a very effective strategy that allows for much faster growth. Bigger returns for larger amounts of smaller sales.

The more you sell, the more you make. That's my take on the current market, anyway. If there is anything that clones and cheap juice vendors have taught us, it's that this strategy can work very well.

100 bottles at $5 each (least profitable)

Or 50 bottles at $10 (most profitable)

It's the seesaw of economics, push the price to the point sales slow marginally. Your production cost goes down, while profit remains equal or better. But we're way past that. This has become a market of greed. And making their money while the market is hot, and before regulation kicks in.

 

[barbaraann72]

Disclaimer: I vape Five Pawns.... everyday (just not ALL day).

I used to work for one of the world leading Luxury Brands. We sold leather goods that often sell for many thousands of dollars. My clients rarely thought twice about purchasing a $2000 handbag and a pair of $1200 shoes.

Yes, you can purchase shoes and purses at Walmart for $20. But, there truly is a difference that may or may not be evident at first glance. Also when purchasing a luxury product, you are also buying in to a lifestyle. Some people simply enjoy that aspect as well.

It's not for everyone, but don't expect "high end" liquids to change the way they run their business. There will always be a market for luxury goods - no matter the current economic climate. The company I worked for has been in business for over 150 years.

While many, if not most if us, here on the forums cannot fathom vaping $30 liquid exclusively - it does indeed occur. Five Pawns (for example) has an impressive following of devoted fans.




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[robot zombie]

100 bottles at $5 each (least profitable)

Or 50 bottles at $10 (most profitable)

It's the seesaw of economics, push the price to the point sales slow marginally. Your production cost goes down, while profit remains equal or better. But we're way past that. This has become a market of greed. And making their money while the market is hot, and before regulation kicks in.

Valid points. I also agree that it's more a problem of anxiety about the future and greed. These guys probably just want to have money left over to invest in a new start-up in the event of a regulatory meltdown.

I do still think that it is possible to boost sales enough to overcome production costs. It's difficult, but possible with effective marketing, streamlined distribution, vendor incentives... ...the list goes on. I bet it's entirely doable to manufacture juice in bulk for less per ml. It's just a matter of making those goals and sticking to them. It just takes a lot of planning and attentiveness that I think manufacturers are either uneasy about doing, or not experienced enough to know how to go about.

Yes, you can purchase shoes and purses at Walmart for $20. But, there truly is a difference that may or may not be evident at first glance. Also when purchasing a luxury product, you are also buying in to a lifestyle. Some people simply enjoy that aspect as well.

I understand all of that with certain types of products. Expensive handbags are made of better materials and have all around better craftsmanship. There is also a social perception of luxury and prestige that comes from owning something from a top brand.

But this is juice we're talking about, here. It's cheap and easy to make premium quality juice. Juice is juice. It's all made roughly the same way, using the same ingredients. I have vaped 10-dollar 30's that were just as high-quality as juices that sell for double that. Knowing that, why would I buy the more expensive juice?

The point I'm getting at is that sooner or later, people are gonna start swooping in with premium juice at reasonable prices and probably usurp a lot of business right out from under other premium sellers. It's hard to justify a higher price point when the guy next-door is offering what is literally the exact same thing for cheaper. That's probably the easiest way to break into the market right now.

I get that there will always be a niche market for the pricier juices, but up until recently, they have pretty much dominated the market. It'd be like if you went to wal-mart and their cheapest purse was $400. It's been artificially inflated to a point where something just has to give.

 

[PuffPuffPass]

....

While many, if not most if us, here on the forums cannot fathom vaping $30 liquid exclusively - it does indeed occur. Five Pawns (for example) has an impressive following of devoted fans.
Sent from my SM-T217T using Tapatalk

Very true. I actually do have ONE juice I pay high dollar for. But I only vape about 1 bottle every six months. It's very good, but it's also very sweet. And I can't do extremely sweet for more than an hour.

I like to think the quality of mine, is as good as the majority of juice makers. (I know it's not) Afterall, we're not looking for "close enough". We're looking for something we can get satisfaction from on a daily basis. I don't think any of us entered this looking at it as a luxury. We're looking at it as a means to an end of a costly (bad) habit.

 

[barbaraann72]

I understand all of that with certain types of products. Expensive handbags are made of better materials and have all around better craftsmanship. There is also a social perception of luxury and prestige that comes from owning something from a top brand.

But this is juice we're talking about, here. It's cheap and easy to make premium quality juice. Juice is juice. It's all made roughly the same way, using the same ingredients. I have vaped 10-dollar 30's that were just as high-quality as juices that sell for double that. Knowing that, why would I buy the more expensive juice?

I don't necessarily diagree. But, we aren't probably the type of clientele that these lines are targeting. If you have a look at a photo Five Pawns tasting bar, you'll completely understand who their clients are. Comparing an equally as good competitors liquid is basically irrelevant to Five Pawns devotees. These people really and truly are buying into the lifestyle.

The point I'm getting at is that sooner or later, people are gonna start swooping in with premium juice at reasonable prices and probably usurp a lot of business right out from under other premium sellers. It's hard to justify a higher price point when the guy next-door is offering what is literally the exact same thing for cheaper. That's probably the easiest way to break into the market right now.

The vapors that they will take away from the luxury brands are people like me. Those of us that want those premium ymmies without the premium prices (until I'm full time DIY ). It will be enough to keep the new lines in business, but it probably won't be hugely noticed by these Top Shelf brands.

Hope I'm still making sense and not just rambling. I love a good debate!

 

[robot zombie]

I don't necessarily diagree. But, we aren't probably the type of clientele that these lines are targeting. If you have a look at a photo Five Pawns tasting bar, you'll completely understand who their clients are. Comparing an equally as good competitors liquid is basically irrelevant to Five Pawns devotees. These people really and truly are buying into the lifestyle.

That's not something I was aware of. I guess it makes sense when you consider that there are $300 mech mods out there.

The vapors that they will take away from the luxury brands are people like me. Those of us that want those premium ymmies without the premium prices (until I'm full time DIY ). It will be enough to keep the new lines in business, but it probably won't be hugely noticed by these Top Shelf brands.

For the most well-established ones, probably not. However, if you are meaning to imply that a drop in juice prices wouldn't be a big deal, then I'd have to disagree.

Judging by the constant outcry from vapers, I'd bet that a very large percentage of people paying for premium juices would not do so if they weren't under the impression that they had no choice. Like puffpuff was saying, it's just a means to an end. Companies who are willing and able to meet that demand may wind up pushing other manufacturers of similar juices out of business. At the very least, they will have to evolve or die. That's what I think we're coming to. I think a lot of the more established vendors see it this way too and hopefully they are already preparing for it. They're probably the ones paying the most attention to the gradual shift that's taking place.

What I want to see is a more enticing market for your everyday vaper. If a juice that I consider a treat is $22 a bottle, that's fine. It becomes a problem when even juices that are merely average or maybe even delicious, but common cost just as much. I think a clearer line needs to be drawn when it comes to what warrants a much higher price point. Very few are actually worth the money for your average vaper... ...especially for the drippers out there. With e-liquid, better flavors don't cost more to make. You're selling the proprietary recipe. To sell it as premium, it needs to be held to a certain standard.

Hope I'm still making sense and not just rambling. I love a good debate!

Haha, well now you've got me confused. I thought we were just having an open-ended discussion. To be having a debate, all of us would need to know what we're talking about. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not in a position to form logical, factual arguments. I can only spout conjecture.

 

[barbaraann72]

Waaaaaaaait... we actually have to understand and have knowledge of a subject PRIOR to a debate? Clearly, I want too many Political Debates to understand the rules.

 

[VapeRN]

I guess I'm spoiled, my preferred B&M is basically a giant DIY setup with nearly every flavoring out there. They have house clones of all the big brands and sell me my 120ml bottles for 20$. Fantastic juice, fantastic pricing. More shops should go this route, the place is always packed with clients. Custom juice, personal service, amazing. Shout out to Elephant Vapor of Las Vegas.


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[barbaraann72]

I guess I'm spoiled, my preferred B&M is basically a giant DIY setup with nearly every flavoring out there. They have house clones of all the big brands and sell me my 120ml bottles for 20$. Fantastic juice, fantastic pricing. More shops should go this route, the place is always packed with clients. Custom juice, personal service, amazing. Shout out to Elephant Vapor of Las Vegas.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's fantastic!

 

[Joshua Iles]

The one thing we have in juice is options that aren't really there in say the soda market. For example coke and Dr pepper have clones sure, not near as good but cheaper. There's only one or 2 off brands at the store or buy the original. Juice is a whole different ballgame. I like strawberry vapes. How many strawberry juices are being made? I couldn't even begin to count them all. From levels of sheer awesomeness to utter toilet water and every level in between. Juice makers are going to have to realize this is not the soda industry where u have a few mainstream options and that's it, I'm talking gas station type selection not specialty stores. There are a lot of folks yes who solely buy juice in stores, me I buy in stores for necessity when I have to, I'm sure most folks here who don't diy or have an awesome shop that sells for good prices does the same thing I do, we buy online. That said that opens up endless options for whatever u want. Mt baker is a prime example of this. People who don't research like we do and visit forums or watch reviews have Google. And I'm sure Google brings them to the sites that pay or however it works. Mt baker pops up a lot I'm sure next to premium shops. So people click and they see the price differences and based solely on advertising and pricing baker wins. I have a friend who has very little vape knowledge who may still order from baker, don't blame him, its cheap and better than most of the juice out here in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure I'm not expressing my thoughts as clearly as they are in my head, but if I were these $20 for a 15ml bottle folks I would be afraid right now, some have like 3 flavors which I guess is fine, but when someone can go on mechsauce for example and order 20+ whatever flavors for half the price or less I see folks starting to see that they can satisfy their vaping needs by spending way less and still be satisfied. My novel for the day, albeit a very confused and drunken one I'm sure.

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[Alter]

All I can say in my 8 months of DIY juice, how sweet commercial juices are compared to what I'm vaping now, I cant even vape them no more. The biggest pro so far for DIY juice is that I now drink a fraction of the water I use too drink vaping commercial juices so I'm not up pizzing a couple times a night anymore. I just vape HS highway, desert ship and No5 with a tobacco absolute....good vape. I use or add no sweetener and the sweetness of the vg makes it sweet enough. I've spent the dollars already, with DIY juice now, I can be totally self sufficient and its now time to ride the wave.

 

[PuffPuffPass]

All I can say in my 8 months of DIY juice, how sweet commercial juices are compared to what I'm vaping now, I cant even vape them no more. The biggest pro so far for DIY juice is that I now drink a fraction of the water I use too drink vaping commercial juices so I'm not up pizzing a couple times a night anymore. I just vape HS highway, desert ship and No5 with a tobacco absolute....good vape. I use or add no sweetener and the sweetness of the vg makes it sweet enough. I've spent the dollars already, with DIY juice now, I can be totally self sufficient and its now time to ride the wave.

Exactly right. I have only 3 commercially sold juices in my possession right now. 2 of which will probably never be vaped. Because they are so sweet.

My juices won't win any prizes. But they're sufficient enough for me. And since that's who pays for, and uses them. I guess they're all winning recipes.

 

[scalewiz]

Nic is available now for 50 bucks a liter for 100 mg/ml strength. If you can get VG and PG by the gallon, it's pretty cheap. At those prices, DIY unflavored can be made for really cheap. My cost comes out to be 1.1 cents per ml for 9 mg base. Usually I add 1 or 2 drops of flavoring in 30 ml to hide the bland sweet taste of VG. Cost of juice doesn't end up being more than minor pocket change.

But, my problem is those 24 battery holders sitting behind me. They're lonely. I can't use but 1 at a time. Guess I need to get them a new friend. More $$$ !

 

[PuffPuffPass]

The one thing we have in juice is options that aren't really there in say the soda market. For example coke and Dr pepper have clones sure, not near as good but cheaper. There's only one or 2 off brands at the store or buy the original. Juice is a whole different ballgame. I like strawberry vapes. How many strawberry juices are being made? I couldn't even begin to count them all. From levels of sheer awesomeness to utter toilet water and every level in between. Juice makers are going to have to realize this is not the soda industry where u have a few mainstream options and that's it, I'm talking gas station type selection not specialty stores. There are a lot of folks yes who solely buy juice in stores, me I buy in stores for necessity when I have to, I'm sure most folks here who don't diy or have an awesome shop that sells for good prices does the same thing I do, we buy online. That said that opens up endless options for whatever u want. Mt baker is a prime example of this. People who don't research like we do and visit forums or watch reviews have Google. And I'm sure Google brings them to the sites that pay or however it works. Mt baker pops up a lot I'm sure next to premium shops. So people click and they see the price differences and based solely on advertising and pricing baker wins. I have a friend who has very little vape knowledge who may still order from baker, don't blame him, its cheap and better than most of the juice out here in the middle of nowhere. I'm sure I'm not expressing my thoughts as clearly as they are in my head, but if I were these $20 for a 15ml bottle folks I would be afraid right now, some have like 3 flavors which I guess is fine, but when someone can go on mechsauce for example and order 20+ whatever flavors for half the price or less I see folks starting to see that they can satisfy their vaping needs by spending way less and still be satisfied. My novel for the day, albeit a very confused and drunken one I'm sure.

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Once regulations and taxes hit. You're going to see a lot of small vendors eating each other for their slice of the pie. And more people just looking at the cost of buying in, and just sticking with cigarettes.

If vendors don't start pricing realistically. They'll be forced to eat the tax increase, or pass it to the consumer in the form of even higher priced juice. I see the smarter ones have already started dropping prices dramatically. So when (not if) the tax man comes. They can tack it onto the current price. And people will be paying the same price once more.

Except those of us who DIY, and have plenty of supplies on hand.