INGREDIENTS TO AVOID USING IN DIY

[gopher_byrd]

Cite?

Don't believe there is a single case of that...just a lot of fear-mongering mentions of diacetyl and popcorn lung and e-juice in the same bullshit "news".
I mean, feel free to cut out or cut back on daicetyl, but I don't think there is any actual evidence that it's harmful the way we use it.

And of course the "News" will not report that there is more diacetyl in tobacco cigarettes than in e-liquid...

That's one of the great things about DIY, we have the choice of using flavors with diacetyl or not.

Now where is that mod with the custard in it...

 

[jjdell]

Easy peasy. Worried about whats in the flavour? Go to wizardlabs and punch the makers flavour into the search and it'll give all the info of whats in it. I use it all the time to check.

 

[monsterlove]

And of course the "News" will not report that there is more diacetyl in tobacco cigarettes than in e-liquid...

Do you, or anyone else have any figures and sources for this? If there was any thread where posting that would be appropriate and useful this would be it.

I was listening to this podcast that interviews Dr. Farsalinos, the guy behind the study that talks about diketones and ecig/cigarette levels. He mentions those figures are based on 3ml of liquids at 6.5 watts on an egostyle battery. From this site you can see some figures Dr Farsalinos without listening to the whole podcast.

Based on an analysis of 159 e-liquids and concentrated flavors expected to contain the chemicals, the study found that around 74 percent contained either DA or AP. The median daily exposure for vapers was calculated to be 56 μg (1 μg = 1 millionth of a gram) per day for DA and 91 μg per day for AP, which are 100 times and 10 times lower than the exposure for a smoker, respectively.

That's what is often heard from vapers, that cigarettes contain far more of the bad stuff than ejuice. So, all is good right? Well, remember, this is based on an average useage being 3ml a day at 6.5 watts. How many of us use 3ml a day now? Recommendations are given for safe levels of inhalation of these chemicals:

the authors used recommendations from the National Institute for Occupation Safety and Health (NIOSH) to determine what could class as “acceptable” levels of the chemicals in e-liquid, calculating 65 μg for DA and 137 μg per day for AP

Also, when I look at the suicide bunny/five pawns 'scandal' you can see that not all e liquids even test as low as the ones from that test. Further in the article it mentions this:

Absolute Pin, in particular, came in with 40 μg/ml of DA and an incredible 2,500 μg/ml of AP. In other words, according to the results, if you had 2 ml of the stuff you’d be over the recommended intake for DA and more than 36 times over the recommended daily limit for AP. It’s the highest result that’s ever been found in e-liquid.

If you vaped 2ml of that liquid you will be 36 times over the limit. Another test that sticks out to me is when a Canadian vendor sent off samples of Flavor West Butterscotch, that was supposed to contain no diketones, and found it had 1700 ppm of acetoin. Now, personally I vape around 60ml of liquid a week, and that is I think fairly conservative today. We no longer use 6.5 watts and 3ml a day (well, maybe pbusardo...). I can vape 3.5ml in a minute or less on my baby beast. The trend has increased juice consumption and driven the average wattage up tremendously, this obviously increases the risk. Again, further in the article:

they repeat this common argument: “It is important to note however, that high levels of both diacetyl and AP are present in cigarettes, yet there has been no link to bronchial obliterates” (i.e. popcorn lung).

This seems like a fair point, but unfortunately – as covered in Dr. Farsalinos’ study – it isn’t a valid one, since there is (obviously) more than one element in cigarette smoke that causes lung damage (which is why COPD is common in smokers), and the condition is often misdiagnosed. In simple terms: smokers probably do get it; it’s just hidden underneath all the other crap smoking does to you.

This worries me, personally. At first I saw the comments like 'cigarettes contain 100/400/750 times more diketones than e liquid' and thought it was just more propaganda (and the propaganda is real, admittedly), but when I looked a bit more in depth and saw things like the tests done on FW Butterscotch and the suicide bunny/five pawns liquid and then thought about how much juice I consume and the wattage I use I realised I am not comfortable with the extra risk and now look for openly tested flavor vendors like FA and TFA/TPA. There are so many other flavours I would love to vape but I am just not comfortable with it, personally.

Now, if anyone has anything to add to this, please do. I have not looked into this extensively, I do work full time and information is actually sort of hard to find on this - maybe I got something wrong, maybe there is new information which may assuage any doubts, maybe certain flavor manufacturers or juice vendors are now openly testing and publishing results and showing safe limits. For now though, I am steering clear of untested favours.

This turned into a very long post...this has been concerning me for some time though and I have trouble finding appropriate places to discuss it. Many vapers have simply embraced diketones fully - a personal choice, of course - but I have also seen people be quite aggressive and dismissive when even broaching this topic - or even just asking for diketone free recipes - due to fear of bans or harsh regulations, or just simply losing the juice they love. I hope none of you are prickled by my post and can take it for what it is - genuine concern and a wish to discuss and learn.

EDIT: I found this blog that cites certain studies and says:

Fujioka and Shibamoto conducted a study to measure the diacetyl exposure from active smoking. They found that the average diacetyl content of the cigarettes tested was 335.9 micrograms per cigarette. Assuming that a smoker consumes one pack per day (20 cigarettes), the average daily inhaled does of diacetyl associated with smoking is therefore 6718 micrograms.

Now, I am not sure if diacetyl and AP are directly comparable, but if I take the worst juice I mentioned here, Absolute Pin, that had 2500ppm of AP, and if you use 20ml of that a day, then you are consuming 50,000ppm of AP. As for a direct comparison, the diacetyl in that liquid is 40 μg/ml, so for 20ml a day you would consume 800ppm. That still doesn't sound good, but in terms of diacetyl alone that is certainly better than cigarettes. AP is unknown as I don't know how much AP is in cigarettes (if any?). But, the reccomended safety limits for AP are just 91μg a day. This liquid would give you 50,000μg.

There are other comments on there that make good arguments for the levels of diketones in e liquids, but unfortunately I am not scientifically minded enough to follow some of it, or to examine how sound the arguments are.

EDIT EDIT: the tl;dr of my main post is the study that examined diketone levels in e liquid was based on 3ml a day at 6.5 watts. If you use this much and you use the right e liquid you are just under the recommended safety limit. If not, you are over, and depending on what juice you use and how much you could be really far over. We don't fully know the consequences, but saying no smoker ever got sick from diketones is potentially misleading as they often suffer complicated illnesses due to other smoking factors or are just plain misdiagnosed.

 

[vapegears]

NEVER USE ANYTHING WITH INGREDIENTS YOU CANT EVEN SAY!!!

There is a lot of really good info in this post but this excerpt seems a little extreme... Even a chemist who knows of every possible chemical and solution in the world might have trouble with phonetics. I feel like not being able to say what all the ingredients are does not make something unsafe.

 

[jjdell]

• I'd avoid using arsenic!

 

[vapegears]

• I'd avoid using arsenic!

Yeah, I'd avoid arsenic too but I don't know of any flavors that include arsenic

 

[OCVaper]

Do you, or anyone else have any figures and sources for this? If there was any thread where posting that would be appropriate and useful this would be it.

I was listening to this podcast that interviews Dr. Farsalinos, the guy behind the study that talks about diketones and ecig/cigarette levels. He mentions those figures are based on 3ml of liquids at 6.5 watts on an egostyle battery. From this site you can see some figures Dr Farsalinos without listening to the whole podcast.



That's what is often heard from vapers, that cigarettes contain far more of the bad stuff than ejuice. So, all is good right? Well, remember, this is based on an average useage being 3ml a day at 6.5 watts. How many of us use 3ml a day now? Recommendations are given for safe levels of inhalation of these chemicals:



Also, when I look at the suicide bunny/five pawns 'scandal' you can see that not all e liquids even test as low as the ones from that test. Further in the article it mentions this:



If you vaped 2ml of that liquid you will be 36 times over the limit. Another test that sticks out to me is when a Canadian vendor sent off samples of Flavor West Butterscotch, that was supposed to contain no diketones, and found it had 1700 ppm of acetoin. Now, personally I vape around 60ml of liquid a week, and that is I think fairly conservative today. We no longer use 6.5 watts and 3ml a day (well, maybe pbusardo...). I can vape 3.5ml in a minute or less on my baby beast. The trend has increased juice consumption and driven the average wattage up tremendously, this obviously increases the risk. Again, further in the article:



This worries me, personally. At first I saw the comments like 'cigarettes contain 100/400/750 times more diketones than e liquid' and thought it was just more propaganda (and the propaganda is real, admittedly), but when I looked a bit more in depth and saw things like the tests done on FW Butterscotch and the suicide bunny/five pawns liquid and then thought about how much juice I consume and the wattage I use I realised I am not comfortable with the extra risk and now look for openly tested flavor vendors like FA and TFA/TPA. There are so many other flavours I would love to vape but I am just not comfortable with it, personally.

Now, if anyone has anything to add to this, please do. I have not looked into this extensively, I do work full time and information is actually sort of hard to find on this - maybe I got something wrong, maybe there is new information which may assuage any doubts, maybe certain flavor manufacturers or juice vendors are now openly testing and publishing results and showing safe limits. For now though, I am steering clear of untested favours.

This turned into a very long post...this has been concerning me for some time though and I have trouble finding appropriate places to discuss it. Many vapers have simply embraced diketones fully - a personal choice, of course - but I have also seen people be quite aggressive and dismissive when even broaching this topic - or even just asking for diketone free recipes - due to fear of bans or harsh regulations, or just simply losing the juice they love. I hope none of you are prickled by my post and can take it for what it is - genuine concern and a wish to discuss and learn.

EDIT: I found this blog that cites certain studies and says:



Now, I am not sure if diacetyl and AP are directly comparable, but if I take the worst juice I mentioned here, Absolute Pin, that had 2500ppm of AP, and if you use 20ml of that a day, then you are consuming 50,000ppm of AP. As for a direct comparison, the diacetyl in that liquid is 40 μg/ml, so for 20ml a day you would consume 800ppm. That still doesn't sound good, but in terms of diacetyl alone that is certainly better than cigarettes. AP is unknown as I don't know how much AP is in cigarettes (if any?). But, the reccomended safety limits for AP are just 91μg a day. This liquid would give you 50,000μg.

There are other comments on there that make good arguments for the levels of diketones in e liquids, but unfortunately I am not scientifically minded enough to follow some of it, or to examine how sound the arguments are.

EDIT EDIT: the tl;dr of my main post is the study that examined diketone levels in e liquid was based on 3ml a day at 6.5 watts. If you use this much and you use the right e liquid you are just under the recommended safety limit. If not, you are over, and depending on what juice you use and how much you could be really far over. We don't fully know the consequences, but saying no smoker ever got sick from diketones is potentially misleading as they often suffer complicated illnesses due to other smoking factors or are just plain misdiagnosed.

@monsterlove, I want to address one point, that seems to come up by a lot of vape haters:

This seems like a fair point, but unfortunately – as covered in Dr. Farsalinos’ study – it isn’t a valid one, since there is (obviously) more than one element in cigarette smoke that causes lung damage (which is why COPD is common in smokers), and the condition is often misdiagnosed. In simple terms: smokers probably do get it; it’s just hidden underneath all the other crap smoking does to you.

They postulate some sort of Silent Epidemic, where millions of smokers are dying every year of BO that is misdiagnosed as the "expected" COPD. This is simply not credible. It is a variant of "I dare you to prove a negative", I dare you to prove that millions of smokers aren't dying of BO.

Let's do some back of the envelope calculations. There are around ONE BILLION smokers worldwide. If the average lifespan of those smokers is 50 years past the year they started smoking, then TWENTY MILLION smokers are dying every year. Let's say that the autopsy rate on those dead smokers is a paltry 1%. Then 200,000 smokers lungs are being autopsied EVERY YEAR. Yet, not a single smoker (who didn't work in a popcorn factory) has ever been diagnosed with BO, or it is so rare that the medical community is unanimously in agreement that there is no connection between BO and smoking.

Smoking related illness is a multi-multi-billion $$$ industry. Go quibble with my numbers. Cut my numbers by 10, by 100. An entire industry devoted to smoking related diseases totally missed this one? While BO could be misdiagnosed as COPD in a living patient, it is obviously very different than COPD in an autopsy. If my back of the envelope numbers are off by a factor of 100, then they missed 2,000 autopsies per year in just the last 50 years, or 100,000 out of 100,000 bungled autopsies?

Once you come to understand that there is no basis for a Silent Epidemic of BO then you have to wonder where the standards for inhalation came from, and the context they can be reasonably applied. Was it a number pulled out of thin air by a gov't bureaucrat looking for a safe number, or was it based on hard science (and "I dare you to prove a negative" is not science, it's politics)?

There is probably more diacetyl at you local Starbucks then in your vape. There is even a study that looked at the diacetyl produced from coffee grinding in coffee shops. Not to mention in your own kitchen if you grind your own beans. But you'll never hear much about that study. Why? Follow the money. There's no money in shutting down the coffee industry, but there is huge money to be made shutting down the vape industry. And interestingly enough, no one ever cared about diacetyl except microwave popcorn makers. Until vaping came along.... hmmm.

 

[monsterlove]

@OCVaper you definitely have some good points. In the end it is each to their own, I know a lot of vapers don't worry at all and that's their choice, I don't worry too much but I try to minimise risk. And yes, there is definitely a xxxxxx madness type thing going on with vaping and whatever the media can find to paint it as dangerous.

 

[gbalkam]

AVOID BUTTER FLAVOR , IT has been known that a chemical reaction occurs with this flavor that produces
Di acetyl = The United States National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health has suggested diacetyl, when used in artificial butter flavoring (as used in many consumer foods), may be hazardous when heated and inhaled over a long period.
tpa Q & A link on this topic

If you consider 6 cases out of 8,000,000,000 people as "may be hazardous" What may be hazardous is working in a popcorn factory in the area where the flavoring is added by the ton without a filter mask for extended periods. By the way.. with all the concern about diacetyl and popcorn lung.. guess how many cases are actually confirmed. SIX and guess which 6 those are? The 6 working in the popcorn factory. It's time to stop spreading the click bait media scare tactics of gloom and doom and focus on actual facts. Fact. there is 100 to 650 time the amount of diacetyl in a cigarette as vape juice, no smoker ever got popcorn lung. No movie theater concession stand worker, ever got popcorn lung. No person eating microwave or movie theater popcorn ever got popcorn lung. The fact is, at aprox 1 in 1.3 billion odds, you are more likely to be killed by a frozen turd dropping off an airplane on your way to the vape shop to buy your juice. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ice_(aviation)

 

[Huckleberried]

That was a 5 year old post.

 

[Jinx'd]

If you consider 6 cases out of 8,000,000,000 people as "may be hazardous" What may be hazardous is working in a popcorn factory in the area where the flavoring is added by the ton without a filter mask for extended periods. By the way.. with all the concern about diacetyl and popcorn lung.. guess how many cases are actually confirmed. SIX and guess which 6 those are? The 6 working in the popcorn factory. It's time to stop spreading the click bait media scare tactics of gloom and doom and focus on actual facts. Fact. there is 100 to 650 time the amount of diacetyl in a cigarette as vape juice, no smoker ever got popcorn lung. No movie theater concession stand worker, ever got popcorn lung. No person eating microwave or movie theater popcorn ever got popcorn lung. The fact is, at aprox 1 in 1.3 billion odds, you are more likely to be killed by a frozen turd dropping off an airplane on your way to the vape shop to buy your juice. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ice_(aviation)

turd bombs !

 

[gbalkam]

That was a 5 year old post.

and the thread is still open and people are still asking about popcorn lung, we update as new information becomes available.

 

[Rhianne]

and the thread is still open and people are still asking about popcorn lung, we update as new information becomes available.

That’s because they’re doing research in the wrong places. I wonder if the vape juice is anti freeze thing will revive again, too.

On a few review vids I’ve seen on YT, there are some comments like you’ll get popcorn lung, you’ll get pneumonia or you’re still addicted to nicotine, or it’s a worse addiction than smoking. From anti vapers who know nothing about vaping, and prolly aren’t shills but just misinformed. And want to share the bad vibes!


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[gbalkam]

you’ll get pneumonia

HA! I haven't had pneumonia since I started vaping 3 1/2 years ago, where I used to get it 2 to 3 times a year while smoking.
As for

anti vapers who know nothing about vaping

They should keep their mouth shut until they can make an intelligent argument.

 

[Rhianne]

HA! I haven't had pneumonia since I started vaping 3 1/2 years ago, where I used to get it 2 to 3 times a year while smoking.
As for


They should keep their mouth shut until they can make an intelligent argument.

It’s nice when a new quitter is really happy about vaping, and some dickhead comes along and says, what’s the difference, you’re still addicted, you just replaced one for the other. They quit smoking and they’re being downed for it for not having the willpower to cold turkey from smokes! Achtung, quitting nazis!

The pneumonia thing is a sad argument. These folks don’t really know what vaping is, but it’s like they’re jealous or something. Why spread bad vibes like that when you’re misinformed?

The only cough I get nowadays is if the PG in juice doesn’t agree with me. It’s a dry cough, but annoying.


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