Mixing Wire Types

[SirRichardRear]

anyone have experience mixing wire types? Been building for years now but never mixed material. My thought process was If i mix kenthal with another metal i can raise the resistance but have less of the "kenthal flavor" So i did some twisted kenthal 26 guage with some SS430 .44mm Wire. 9 wrapos dual coil at .16 ohms. the SS and kenthal temp modes didn't really work right but i was able to use it in xxx mode on a G2 16% FSK curve and it works really well and taste great. Has anyone else tried doing this?

 

[StephenGeo]

I haven't, but I'll be interested to see what/ if anyone else has tried,

Sent from my HTC M8

 

[Jimi D]

21:11 will show you how it heats up mixing metals

 

[SirRichardRear]

21:11 will show you how it heats up mixing metals

yeah they fire great. Was more looking into how it effects TC and resistance. I would think that resistance would fall somewhere between the values of the wires used, hence using kenthal allows resistance to be higher. I'll probably try a triple twist next time with SS430, NiFe 52, and Kenthal A1 and see what I get

 

[CrazyChef]

Mixing wires is fine - unless you're using them in TC mode. TC is determined by a set of pre-determined values coded into the firmware of the mod. So, if you use SS316L, then when you set the resistance, the mod knows how to set the TC. Not so with kanthal, nichrome. If you mix the 2 (or more) wire types, you're no longer in actual TC mode. You're just running current through the wire - nothing more.

 

[SirRichardRear]

Mixing wires is fine - unless you're using them in TC mode. TC is determined by a set of pre-determined values coded into the firmware of the mod. So, if you use SS316L, then when you set the resistance, the mod knows how to set the TC. Not so with kanthal, nichrome. If you mix the 2 (or more) wire types, you're no longer in actual TC mode. You're just running current through the wire - nothing more.

Well my theory is that the twisted wire would fall somewhere between the 2 values of the wires themselves. Somewhat like an average. By adjusting the fsk curve on the G2 it actually does work in TC mode. I've been running it at 20% now

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[fq06]

I guess that's because your using the fsk chip but that wouldn't relate to every other chip on the market that does TC (exception being the assholio).

For what you're trying to do, based on what I've read the fsk will do some sort of TC or flavor control or whatever on any wire so mixing wires shouldn't be an issue.

 

[SirRichardRear]

I guess that's because your using the fsk chip but that wouldn't relate to every other chip on the market that does TC (exception being the assholio).

For what you're trying to do, based on what I've read the fsk will do some sort of TC or flavor control or whatever on any wire so mixing wires shouldn't be an issue.

Yeah it's working good. I'm just wondering if there is anyway to program mixed wires into a dna. Or find a tcr value. I couldn't find any options on steam engine. And I don't think an exact average would work

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[fq06]

Probably just setting it on the temp you like and play with tcr number till it gives you the heat you want but it probably won't be the same accurate TC experience that your used to when you use a single TC wire type.

Just guessing the different wires will mess with the algorithms or whatever are programed into the chip to interpret the rise in resistance equating that to a temp to regulate to.

Won't hurt to mess around with it though

In the end, mixed wire types may just be for the fsk chip and not the dna or any other TC chip

 

[SirRichardRear]

Probably just setting it on the temp you like and play with tcr number till it gives you the heat you want but it probably won't be the same accurate TC experience that your used to when you use a single TC wire type.

Just guessing the different wires will mess with the algorithms or whatever are programed into the chip to interpret the rise in resistance equating that to a temp to regulate to.

Won't hurt to mess around with it though

In the end, mixed wire types may just be for the fsk chip and not the dna or any other TC chip

True

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[gbalkam]

I guess my question is similar enough to not require a separate thread. I am wondering, totally ignoring any TC going strictly by wattage, how twisting 20ga stainless steel and 21ga nichrome would affect resistance / conductivity. Since current follows the path of least resistance, would the 2 wires combine to increase resistance (avg between the steel and nichrome) or would it be roughly the same as steel wire only. (such as would be the case if i claptoned the nichrome around the steel wire? The outcome I am trying to reach, is more wraps at the same resistance. For example..
Nichrome 21ga = 10 wraps on a 2.5mm core = 0.3 ohm. Stainless steel 20ga = 16 wraps on 2.5mm core = 0.29 ohm

Would twisting these together give me (aprox) 13 wraps on 2.5mm core at 0.15ohm OR 0.12 ohm (as it would be if i had only used 1 strand of stainless steel) for the same 13 wraps?

The result I am looking for, is increase the surface area of the coil, but also increase the heat per watt. The easiest way would be to use a different type of wire, but I wouldn't even know where to start looking for a wire safe for vaping which would come out to between 0.3 and 0.24 ohms for 8 wraps on a 2.5 mm core. (knowing of course that dual coils would give 0.15 - 0.12 ohm). 0.12 is my lowest comfy resistance, slightly lower than the 0.15

Any ideas, based on actual values rather than on theories? Theory is fine, but I would need definite values before attempting to build, since having to low a resistance could be dangerous on a mechanical mod, and my regulated will not fire below 0.1 ohm. ( I try to build between 0.15 and 0.12 allowing for resistance fluctuation caused by heating or cooling)

 

[SirRichardRear]

I guess my question is similar enough to not require a separate thread. I am wondering, totally ignoring any TC going strictly by wattage, how twisting 20ga stainless steel and 21ga nichrome would affect resistance / conductivity. Since current follows the path of least resistance, would the 2 wires combine to increase resistance (avg between the steel and nichrome) or would it be roughly the same as steel wire only. (such as would be the case if i claptoned the nichrome around the steel wire? The outcome I am trying to reach, is more wraps at the same resistance. For example..
Nichrome 21ga = 10 wraps on a 2.5mm core = 0.3 ohm. Stainless steel 20ga = 16 wraps on 2.5mm core = 0.29 ohm

Would twisting these together give me (aprox) 13 wraps on 2.5mm core at 0.15ohm OR 0.12 ohm (as it would be if i had only used 1 strand of stainless steel) for the same 13 wraps?

The result I am looking for, is increase the surface area of the coil, but also increase the heat per watt. The easiest way would be to use a different type of wire, but I wouldn't even know where to start looking for a wire safe for vaping which would come out to between 0.3 and 0.24 ohms for 8 wraps on a 2.5 mm core. (knowing of course that dual coils would give 0.15 - 0.12 ohm). 0.12 is my lowest comfy resistance, slightly lower than the 0.15

Any ideas, based on actual values rather than on theories? Theory is fine, but I would need definite values before attempting to build, since having to low a resistance could be dangerous on a mechanical mod, and my regulated will not fire below 0.1 ohm. ( I try to build between 0.15 and 0.12 allowing for resistance fluctuation caused by heating or cooling)

Unfortunately all I have is theory. I'll know more when I start twisting more wire. I would assume that it would be a value between the 2. I mean if you melted the wire together to make 1 wire, it would have a different resistance, however you make a good point with the path of least resistance. I checked steam engine to compare with my actual results. I have 9 wraps dual twisted coil 3mm ID twist pitch of about 2mm. My resistance on the device itself is reading .21 According to steam engine if I used only SS430 wire it would be 14 wraps, If I used only Kenthal it would be 6 wraps. It's a small sample size i know, I'll do more testing later in the week, but so far it appears not to be an average, but close to it

 

[gbalkam]

Unfortunately all I have is theory. I'll know more when I start twisting more wire. I would assume that it would be a value between the 2. I mean if you melted the wire together to make 1 wire, it would have a different resistance, however you make a good point with the path of least resistance. I checked steam engine to compare with my actual results. I have 9 wraps dual twisted coil 3mm ID twist pitch of about 2mm. My resistance on the device itself is reading .21 According to steam engine if I used only SS430 wire it would be 14 wraps, If I used only Kenthal it would be 6 wraps. It's a small sample size i know, I'll do more testing later in the week, but so far it appears not to be an average, but close to it

So from this, it appears to be doing what I was thinking about. Requiring more wraps than the kanthal, but less than would be needed with SS. A bit more playing around might show if it is because of more SS in the twists or if it is combining an avg resistance. For now, we'll call this "The Bunny Coil"
.
.
.
"Never trust a bunny"---Twitchy the Squirrel. (Hoodwinked)

 

[SirRichardRear]

So from this, it appears to be doing what I was thinking about. Requiring more wraps than the kanthal, but less than would be needed with SS. A bit more playing around might show if it is because of more SS in the twists or if it is combining an avg resistance. For now, we'll call this "The Bunny Coil"
.
.
.
"Never trust a bunny"---Twitchy the Squirrel. (Hoodwinked)

I do like the name bunny coil

 

[gbalkam]

I do like the name bunny coil

Bunny Wire--
25" of 20ga Stainless steel wire (SS) @ 1.16 ohm
25" of 21ga NiChrome wire (NiCr) @ 1.71 ohm
twisted until wire breaks on power drill (twistedmesses method)
Yield:
20" of SS+NiCr @ 0.70ohm

So.... the math...

(SS) /2 = 0.58 *which would be the twisted value of SS only using identical 25" lengths*
(NiCr) /2 = 0.86 (rounded from 0.855) *which would be the twisted value of NiCr only using identical 25" lengths*
allowing aprox 1/4' (parallel) inch wire loss from cutting scrap from end

we get

((SS/2)+(NiCr)/2) = "BW" (Bunny Wire) (20" @ 0.70ohm)

And once again, nerdery triumphs!!!

 

[SirRichardRear]

Bunny Wire--
25" of 20ga Stainless steel wire (SS) @ 1.16 ohm
25" of 21ga NiChrome wire (NiCr) @ 1.71 ohm
twisted until wire breaks on power drill (twistedmesses method)
Yield:
20" of SS+NiCr @ 0.70ohm

So.... the math...

(SS) /2 = 0.58 *which would be the twisted value of SS only using identical 25" lengths*
(NiCr) /2 = 0.86 (rounded from 0.855) *which would be the twisted value of NiCr only using identical 25" lengths*
allowing aprox 1/4' (parallel) inch wire loss from cutting scrap from end

we get

((SS/2)+(NiCr)/2) = "BW" (Bunny Wire) (20" @ 0.70ohm)

And once again, nerdery triumphs!!!

I'm gonna do some measuring when i make one and test this theory out
All hail the bunny wire, it makes fluffy white clouds

 

[gbalkam]

I prefer this one...
Never trust a bunny!

Hopefully, this will also help answer the OP question a bit as well.
Wire properties.. higher resistance then SS but lower than NiCr yet should heat faster than SS but not as fast as NiCr.

According to research, the SS provides a crisp range of mid-high flavor notes, and the NiCr provides low to mid notes with a bit of the high.
Using Kanthal instead of the NiCr would pronounce the low notes, avg mid, and subtle high and the SS would give nice low notes, but bring up the middle and crisp high notes.

LOL.. it is also fairly fitting.. since the 20ga SS I used in the "Bunny Wire" is actually Snare Wire from the hunting dept of the local Canadian Tire Store. (hardware/automotive/ and repair store)

 

[SirRichardRear]

I prefer this one...
Never trust a bunny!

Hopefully, this will also help answer the OP question a bit as well.
Wire properties.. higher resistance then SS but lower than NiCr yet should heat faster than SS but not as fast as NiCr.

According to research, the SS provides a crisp range of mid-high flavor notes, and the NiCr provides low to mid notes with a bit of the high.
Using Kanthal instead of the NiCr would pronounce the low notes, avg mid, and subtle high and the SS would give nice low notes, but bring up the middle and crisp high notes.

LOL.. it is also fairly fitting.. since the 20ga SS I used in the "Bunny Wire" is actually Snare Wire from the hunting dept of the local Canadian Tire Store. (hardware/automotive/ and repair store)

My name is tim

 

[gbalkam]

My name is tim

Tim the Enchanter!!!

Hmm now to coil or dual coil it..
The Holy Hand Grenade Coil!!!

 

[SirRichardRear]

Bunny Wire--
25" of 20ga Stainless steel wire (SS) @ 1.16 ohm
25" of 21ga NiChrome wire (NiCr) @ 1.71 ohm
twisted until wire breaks on power drill (twistedmesses method)
Yield:
20" of SS+NiCr @ 0.70ohm

So.... the math...

(SS) /2 = 0.58 *which would be the twisted value of SS only using identical 25" lengths*
(NiCr) /2 = 0.86 (rounded from 0.855) *which would be the twisted value of NiCr only using identical 25" lengths*
allowing aprox 1/4' (parallel) inch wire loss from cutting scrap from end

we get

((SS/2)+(NiCr)/2) = "BW" (Bunny Wire) (20" @ 0.70ohm)

And once again, nerdery triumphs!!!

Ok so math doesn't seem to make sense. Here is what I did

I have 3 wires twisted them and did 7 wraps. using steam engine a single 7 wrap coil is
Kenthal A1 26G 1.0 ohm
SS430 .44mm .36ohm
NiFe48 .3mm .44 ohm
Which gives me 1.8 ohms total divided by 3 coils = .6 ohm per twisted coil. /2 for a dual coil and it should be around .3ohms? However the result is .09ohms

Now if we went path of least resistance which would be the SS430 and divided it by 6, it would be .06 so thats not it either
the Nife 48 divided by 6 would be .07
The Kenthal divided by 6 would be .17

again I get a number in the middle of all 3 but not quite an average

If i use your formula
(1.0/2) + (.36/2) + (.44/2) = .9 ohms which isn't right either.

Does anyone know of the actual formula to calculate resistance of mixed wire types twisted?

On a sidenote, it is working great in my avacado 24

 

[gbalkam]

Ok so math doesn't seem to make sense. Here is what I did

I have 3 wires twisted them and did 7 wraps. using steam engine a single 7 wrap coil is
Kenthal A1 26G 1.0 ohm
SS430 .44mm .36ohm
NiFe48 .3mm .44 ohm
Which gives me 1.8 ohms total divided by 3 coils = .6 ohm per twisted coil. /2 for a dual coil and it should be around .3ohms? However the result is .09ohms

Now if we went path of least resistance which would be the SS430 and divided it by 6, it would be .06 so thats not it either
the Nife 48 divided by 6 would be .07
The Kenthal divided by 6 would be .17

again I get a number in the middle of all 3 but not quite an average

If i use your formula
(1.0/2) + (.36/2) + (.44/2) = .9 ohms which isn't right either.

Does anyone know of the actual formula to calculate resistance of mixed wire types twisted?

On a sidenote, it is working great in my avacado 24

Is that 0.09 or 0.9 ohms in this line..
Which gives me 1.8 ohms total divided by 3 coils = .6 ohm per twisted coil. /2 for a dual coil and it should be around .3ohms? However the result is .09ohms

Lets compare to what I did and see if we can figure this out.

I measured 25" of SS 20ga and 24" of NiCr 21 ga. I measured the resistance of each wire. All 24 inches, non-coiled.

25" of 20ga Stainless steel wire (SS) @ 1.16 ohm
25" of 21ga NiChrome wire (NiCr) @ 1.71 ohm

then divide each by 2 (2 wires)
0.58 SS
0.86 NiCr
total 1.40 /2
0.70 ohm

LOL I should have read this the other day when we posted in the first place. Now Im trying to remember why I divided the finished wire by 2.


Try the math again, using /3 rather than 2. (3 wires)
0.33
0.12
0.147 (0.146666666)
0.60 total

/2 wires (in my case, it would be 12" each) IM BRAGGING... lol

But yeah, it should be 0.30 ohm per wire minus any extra you did not use in your coil... so if you wrapped the full 12 inches, it SHOULD come to about 0.28 / 2 = 0.14 ohm per coil. ( used 0.28 to allow for legs)
now say you only use 8 inches of wire, it should come out at roughly 0.20 per coil, less what goes into the legs. Say, 1 inch total, so about 0.175 ohm per coil (8 inches at 0.20 /8 (1/8th or 1 inch at 0.025ohm per inch)

VERY IMPORTANT.. This is all figurative math on a work in progress, so test your wires and coils before using them. (to all readers)

"However the result is .09ohms" Now this has me wondering... how could we get this number??? It is by far to low. even if we twisted 3 strands of your lowest resistance wire, (SS430 .44mm .36ohm), it is far above 0.09. (0.36 /3 = 0.12) right?

 

[SirRichardRear]

Is that 0.09 or 0.9 ohms in this line..
Which gives me 1.8 ohms total divided by 3 coils = .6 ohm per twisted coil. /2 for a dual coil and it should be around .3ohms? However the result is .09ohms

Lets compare to what I did and see if we can figure this out.

I measured 25" of SS 20ga and 24" of NiCr 21 ga. I measured the resistance of each wire. All 24 inches, non-coiled.

25" of 20ga Stainless steel wire (SS) @ 1.16 ohm
25" of 21ga NiChrome wire (NiCr) @ 1.71 ohm

then divide each by 2 (2 wires)
0.58 SS
0.86 NiCr
total 1.40 /2
0.70 ohm

LOL I should have read this the other day when we posted in the first place. Now Im trying to remember why I divided the finished wire by 2.


Try the math again, using /3 rather than 2. (3 wires)
0.33
0.12
0.147 (0.146666666)
0.60 total

/2 wires (in my case, it would be 12" each) IM BRAGGING... lol

But yeah, it should be 0.30 ohm per wire minus any extra you did not use in your coil... so if you wrapped the full 12 inches, it SHOULD come to about 0.28 / 2 = 0.14 ohm per coil. ( used 0.28 to allow for legs)
now say you only use 8 inches of wire, it should come out at roughly 0.20 per coil, less what goes into the legs. Say, 1 inch total, so about 0.175 ohm per coil (8 inches at 0.20 /8 (1/8th or 1 inch at 0.025ohm per inch)

VERY IMPORTANT.. This is all figurative math on a work in progress, so test your wires and coils before using them. (to all readers)

"However the result is .09ohms" Now this has me wondering... how could we get this number??? It is by far to low. even if we twisted 3 strands of your lowest resistance wire, (SS430 .44mm .36ohm), it is far above 0.09. (0.36 /3 = 0.12) right?

Yes .09 is what the actual resistance is. Not .9

I divided by 6 in my examples because it's technically 6 wires. I have. Only clue where .09 comes in. Except if it made you coils of each material 2 were lower and 1 was higher. I'm sure there has to be a logical formula I just don't know it and steam engine doesn't seem to have data for it

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Edit: I think I see the pattern. If you take each wire type and divide it by total number of wires to get the resistance then average out all 3 numbers. In my case it would be .1 and the actual resistance is .09 but since steam engine isn't exact I think a .01 difference is explained by that.

 

[gbalkam]

I think you can actually manually enter the exact resistance, like 0.055ohm just as a random number as example. LOL.. I just went on facebook and sent a call out to the cavalry. Some of my cousins of cousins are electricians! I'm just that one guy that used to nap in math class, and solve the problem posted on the chalk board in my head if called on. LOL.

 

[laurie9300]

I have had a lot of luck with twisted nickel/kanthal. I started doing it because nickel was so hard to coil with.

I use it it nickel mode, and just adjust the temperature down to what I'm used to. If you treat the temperature setting as just s number instead of an actual temperature it works well.

I did find this a while ago, long before I knew what it was, I can't remember where......

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3DNipO8Q1hFYlhKX1JiSGU3bjA/view?usp=drivesdk

It's the csv files for mixed materials, but I can't speak for its accuracy......