MMVapors - Greece

[The Ocelot]

A.k.a. Metal Madness Vapors - makers of the Poldiac, et al.

This is ridiculous. I was all set to order a Poldiac and quite a few other things, so it would have been a fairly substantial order. However, it turns out that a friend just bought a Poldiac and was charged VAT (Value Added Tax). That was wrong. VAT is charged on merchandise sold between EU countries, not on exports to the US. He has sent them emails trying to get a refund and gotten no response.

Instead of placing an order, I sent them a message:

Hello

I would like to place an order, but I'm confused about the Value Added Tax. I am in the USA and it is my understanding I will not be subject to VAT if I order from your company. I would like to be clear on this before placing an order.

Thank you.

This is what I got back from MiriamWTH, MMVapors Support Team:

We can send it without VAT but you will have to pay customs & taxes. You will probably pay much more.

You have two options according to the Greek law, either we both pay for vat or we must do a commercial export, in that case you will have to pay the amount that your customs will decide and this is usually a lot higher.

I hope this helps.

Well, no it doesn't. MMVapors are required to affix a customs declaration to their packages that lists: the seller, the buyer, a description of the item, it's weight, how much the buyer paid for it and if it's merchandise, a gift, commercial or a sample (there may be additional options). In any case, there is a clear distinction between merchandise purchased for personal use and for commercial use. And even if a US customer paid VAT it wouldn't stop the US from charging an import duty if appropriate, since the two aren't related. Also, imported merchandise under $200.00USD is generally exempt.

I polled my friends who have bought from other Greek companies, like ByLeo and Gr-Modders, and none of them have been charged VAT. I then posted a question on a Poldiac fan thread on another forum, asking about VAT. It was essentially the email correspondence posted above.

Within minutes, guess who shows up on the thread? MiriamWTH! Interestingly, she lists her location as Tilburg (Netherlands). No wonder she has such stunning knowledge of Greek law.

MiriamWTH:

The Greek law states that the only way that no VAT has to be paid is when a commercial export is done.
The costs for a commercial export are higher plus customs will treat a commercial export differently than a normal package adding costs that are generally higher than the amount of VAT paid on goods with a total of less than 500 euro.

My friend who got ripped-off jumped in:

Yet other Greek suppliers are not charging VAT to non-EU customers. The commercial export exclusion only applies to shipments destined for other EU-member countries where VAT is applicable. VAT shouldn't apply to non-EU members regardless.

MiriamWTH:

I do not know how other Greek suppliers do it, all I know is that MMVapors is doing everything according to Greek law.

And you are welcome to have your order shipped as a commercial export so you do not pay for VAT. But as stated before the end-cost will be a lot higher.

My friend:

You can't make an exemption to a non-applicable circumstance, therefore the commercial export exemption would not apply to non-EU destinations. Apparently the other suppliers are just aware of this fact & aren't overcharging American customers. Also as a non-EU customer, I'm allowed to reclaim any VAT that I've been charged. Typically that would only happen with purchases made on EU soil since online purchases with non-EU destinations aren't supposed to have the VAT added to them in the first place, only customs duties. As Ocelot said, items valued at under $200 do not apply. With whom at MMV should I speak with about reclaiming these wrongly charged taxes?

PS I tried to solve this problem via email, but since my messages are being ignored I have no other choice but to pursue this on a public forum.

Me:

The "commercial" designation you describe sounds like something that is being purchased for resale, at least that is how US Customs interprets the term. What I would be purchasing is merchandise for personal use.

General overview - European commission

"VAT on imports and exports:

For the purpose of exports between the Community and non-member countries, no VAT is charged on the transaction and the VAT already paid on the inputs of the good for export is deducted - this is an exemption with the right to deduct the input VAT, sometimes called 'zero-rating'. There is thus no residual VAT contained in the export price." (Quoted from the site above)

I got the following information about international online purchases directly from the US Customs site.

Internet Purchases | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

"Note: It is important to know that foreign shipments that are not accompanied by a U.S. Customs and Border Protection declaration form and an invoice may be subject to seizure, forfeiture or return to sender."

"Hint: To speed a package through CBP examination at a port's International Mail Branch, the seller should affix a completed CN 22 or CN 23 (U.S. Customs and Border Protection Declaration Form) to the outside of the package. This form may be obtained at local post offices worldwide."

Me again:

Here's another one: EUROPA - Cross-border VAT: buying & selling inside and out of the EU - Your Europe

"Special rules apply if you buy or sell goods/services from or to other countries."

"If you sell goods to customers outside the EU, you do not charge VAT, though you may still deduct the VAT you yourself have paid on your related expenses (goods/services bought in specifically to make those sales)."

Greek law has been brought up in this discussion, but in this case it's my understanding the policies regarding VAT are under the rules of the EU, not the individual countries themselves.

When preparing the export documentation what kind of transaction does MMVapors list when it's a "regular" rather than "commercial" purchase?

MirianWTH:

I think the catch is right there regarding the Greek law: "If you sell goods to customers outside the EU, you do not charge VAT, though you may still deduct the VAT you yourself have paid on your related expenses (goods/services bought in specifically to make those sales)."

In order for a Greek company to still deduct the VAT they have to do a (what translates to) "commercial export" in order to prove to the Greek government that the goods are indeed leaving the EU in order to deduct the VAT. This special export brings more costs for orders up to 500 euro. Since this special export comes with a lot more paperwork, there is a delay in customs in the US and customs in the US will then also charge the end consumer for these extra costs they make.

In order to avoid extra costs for the customer MMV decided to go the first route described and that is to just add the VAT.

In response to my friend's last post Miriam replied:

Your messages have been answered by me personally.... I am sorry you did not like the answer in them, but they have been answered.

This is complete and utter BS. Value Added Tax is assessed by the EU. EU trumps Greece.

(continued to next post)

 

[The Ocelot]

The saga continues (there were too many characters in the first one)


My friend made the last post:

Originally Posted by MiriamWTH
I think the catch is right there regarding the Greek law: "If you sell goods to customers outside the EU, you do not charge VAT, though you may still deduct the VAT you yourself have paid on your related expenses (goods/services bought in specifically to make those sales).

There's no catch there, nor does it have any relevance to your "explanation". That simply says any business selling goods outside of the EU isn't responsible for the VAT. E.g. if you don't collect the VAT, you don't have to pay it on those goods.

Originally Posted by MiriamWTH
In order for a Greek company to still deduct the VAT they have to do a (what translates to) "commercial export" in order to prove to the Greek government that the goods are indeed leaving the EU in order to deduct the VAT. This special export brings more costs for orders up to 500 euro. Since this special export comes with a lot more paperwork, there is a delay in customs in the US and customs in the US will then also charge the end consumer for these extra costs they make.

In order to avoid extra costs for the customer MMV decided to go the first route described and that is to just add the VAT.

And yet you use vague language & provide no proof. All the while many other Greek and EU companies sell to individuals daily without these mysterious export charges you keep referring to but can't seem to name. I've waded through dozens of pages on Greek export law & can find nothing that says a non-VAT transaction must be to a commercial enterprise or exported under the rules that apply to a commercial enterprise, or any other "special export" for that matter. The recipient's address appears to be proof enough that the destination is indeed outside of the EU.


What the bloody hell?! It almost sounds like a threat - you pay VAT or we'll send it as a commercial export and you will have to pay more. What does she mean "more paperwork" to prove the merchandise went to a non-EU customer? Isn't my address (affixed to the required customs declaration form) good enough? You'll notice she didn't answer my question about what they put on the customs declaration for their "regular" sales. How would she know anyway? The packages are mailed from Greece and she's in the fucking Netherlands.

It is also possible MMVapors are double-dipping. Charging VAT to non-EU customers, then deducting the VAT they have paid because the merchandise was exported to a non-EU country.

VAT in Greece is 23%, that's right, 23%. That kind of makes their current "99 Euros" sale a joke, when you'll really be paying 122 Euros, plus shipping (which, by the way, is more than the other Greek vendors).

I'm disappointed. I wanted a Poldiac, but now I don't want to support their company in any way - including buying from a US vendor, since MMVapors would ultimately profit. And they not only lost my sale, but two other sales from friends who were going to order, but changed their minds due to this issue. I might revisit the idea of getting a Poldiac if MMVapors changes their illegal policy, but in the meantime I bought a bOd MECHA.

The Poldiac is a beautiful device, but heads up to anyone who decides to order from MMVapors.

 

[Hermit]

VAT in Greece is 23%, that's right, 23%. That kind of makes their current "99 Euros" sale a joke, when you'll really be paying 122 Euros, plus shipping (which, by the way, is more than the other Greek vendors).

Actually no - the 99 EUR includes the 23% VAT already.

I have no clue why they do this when, as you say, there are other Greek companies that don't. Not even sure where EU VAT rules end and individual countries rules begin, but I believe most of it is still up to each country, with the EU just specifying the cross-border-within-EU stuff and a minimum rate (which no EU country is anywhere near anyway). Not prepared to pass judgment without knowing the details of Greek tax rules, but it's a shame that it's an issue at all because in other respects it's hard to fault them.

 

[Gonzi]

Thank you for taking the time to compile that information and share it with us. I have been contemplating getting a nanos but will clearly avoid this company all together. I'm sorry you and your friend had to be involved in this mind blowingly ignorant and criminal dispute and I hope your friend gets his money back.

 

[The Ocelot]

Actually no - the 99 EUR includes the 23% VAT already.

I have no clue why they do this when, as you say, there are other Greek companies that don't. Not even sure where EU VAT rules end and individual countries rules begin, but I believe most of it is still up to each country, with the EU just specifying the cross-border-within-EU stuff and a minimum rate (which no EU country is anywhere near anyway). Not prepared to pass judgment without knowing the details of Greek tax rules, but it's a shame that it's an issue at all because in other respects it's hard to fault them.

I could be wrong about the 99 Euro sale, but my friend was charged VAT on his purchase, which was before the sale. In one of my links (the one to EUROPA) seems to suggest the policy is across the board. The site is focused on explaining to EU businesses how import/export works, now that they are one big happy family. My last post on the subject was a declaration of the info in Greek (EUROPA has all the languages) clearly stating that sale to non-EU countries are not to be charged VAT.

This post was followed by another person advising MMVapors that they had lost another sale. To that MiriamWTH posted:

There are other issues at work here besides VAT, I will update you all as soon as I have more information from the company lawyer.

For now know that MMVapors always has the best interest of the customer in mind and want to get the products to the customer in the cheapest way possible.

So at least now we got her attention. Hopefully, it turns out well, since other than this (as far as we know) MMVapors is a good vendor and the Poldiac is beautiful. I have to say, however, that I'm getting excited about getting the bOd Mecha! It has good reviews and what I was looking for was a mod that didn't have a bottom switch, but didn't look like a plumbing part.

 

[Gonzi]

I have to admit, I haven't heard anything about the bOd Mecha nor seen any pictures. Please do share!

 

[Hermit]

I think calling it criminal is going WAY too far. There's a price shown on the site, and that's what you pay. There's nothing except speculation saying they don't pass the tax to their Inland Revenue.

Re. ByLeo, I just went there and entered my address first as being in New York, and then for my home address in the UK. The final price was the same in both cases, meaning that ByLeo also do not take off the VAT for sales to the US. They simply don't list VAT seperately in the final step of checkout!

(BTW, it's normal for prices to be listed inclusive of VAT in the EU, which AFAIK is not the case in the US for sales tax).

So I dunno - I could forgive a startup for avoiding the burden of dealing with complex paperwork (which does have costs), but on the other hand MM have been around for a while now and seem to be doing fairly well. It probably is time they worked something out to solve this, but I don't think we should damn them for they've been doing. (Could I be more on the fence, LOL!).

(I am in no way connected with MM except for having bought a mod from them).

 

[Hermit]

I could be wrong about the 99 Euro sale, but my friend was charged VAT on his purchase, which was before the sale.

No difference between the two cases - both prices would have the VAT already in them, so 80.49 + VAT = 99 vs 129.27 + VAT = 159 (or whatever the price was at the time). Your friend would not have been charged 23% on top of the listed price, but would've seen it in the breakdown of charges on the invoice.

 

[The Ocelot]

I think calling it criminal is going WAY too far. There's a price shown on the site, and that's what you pay. There's nothing except speculation saying they don't pass the tax to their Inland Revenue.

Re. ByLeo, I just went there and entered my address first as being in New York, and then for my home address in the UK. The final price was the same in both cases, meaning that ByLeo also do not take off the VAT for sales to the US. They simply don't list VAT seperately in the final step of checkout!

(BTW, it's normal for prices to be listed inclusive of VAT in the EU, which AFAIK is not the case in the US for sales tax).

So I dunno - I could forgive a startup for avoiding the burden of dealing with complex paperwork (which does have costs), but on the other hand MM have been around for a while now and seem to be doing fairly well. It probably is time they worked something out to solve this, but I don't think we should damn them for they've been doing. (Could I be more on the fence, LOL!).

(I am in no way connected with MM except for having bought a mod from them).

You need to read a bit more about VAT. The Value Added Tax has been around for quite awhile. I spent time in the UK, which while not part of the EU, has had a VAT for many years covering merchandise sold within their country for products that stay in the country. When buying items like a leather jacket, I filled out a form at the shop and showed my passport. I was not charged VAT.

The Value Added Tax, or VAT, in the European Union is a general, broadly based consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services. It applies more or less to all goods and services that are bought and sold for use or consumption in the Community. Thus, goods which are sold for export or services which are sold to customers abroad are normally not subject to VAT. Conversely imports are taxed to keep the system fair for EU producers so that they can compete on equal terms on the European market with suppliers situated outside the Union .

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/index_en.htm

Think of it as something this: If I sell merchandise to another country, EU or not, they are not required to pay sales tax assessed in my city/county/state, or pay US customs. They may, however, have to pay import fees (to their country), based on the policy of their government. Similarly, f I buy from another country, I am not responsible for whatever taxes are levied on their citizens, but am subject to US importation fees, unless the transaction is exempt (for things like the type of product and/or the amount I paid for it). California sales tax is not applicable if I sell to Germany and VAT is not a applicable if, from the US, I buy something online from Germany or buy something in Germany that I can prove will be taken out of the country.

 

[The Ocelot]

No difference between the two cases - both prices would have the VAT already in them, so 80.49 + VAT = 99 vs 129.27 + VAT = 159 (or whatever the price was at the time). Your friend would not have been charged 23% on top of the listed price, but would've seen it in the breakdown of charges on the invoice.

Yet, he was charged. And saw it included on the online order break down, unaware at the time he shouldn't have paid it.

 

[The Ocelot]

I have to admit, I haven't heard anything about the bOd Mecha nor seen any pictures. Please do share!

It's an interesting little puppy:

It's a telescopic (18350 to 18650) with a top firing button.

GrimmGreen also has a review, but Field of Vapor knows more about it.

 

[Hermit]

You need to read a bit more about VAT.

No, I understand it well enough, I'm just trying to clear up the confusion about how it relates to the prices listed, as far as MM (and ByLeo) is concerned.

I agree that you normally shouldn't have to pay it. But if we're to have a big Hall of Shame rant about it, let's make sure all the facts are 100% correct

 

[Gonzi]

That's definetly a looker Ocelot, hope you love it!

 

[The Ocelot]

No, I understand it well enough, I'm just trying to clear up the confusion about how it relates to the prices listed, as far as MM (and ByLeo) is concerned.

I agree that you normally shouldn't have to pay it. But if we're to have a big Hall of Shame rant about it, let's make sure all the facts are 100% correct

I never write short rants. Lol! Being The Ocelot, some call them "Rawrs."

I try very hard to be factual and cite sources. I also update my posts should I find something more current or definitive. I have no problem being wrong or having something I have written pointed out as being incorrect. I strive to avoid passing on misinformation, which is why I'll be watching how this matter unfolds, albeit from a distance, since my personal involvement is at an end (unless I can somehow help my friend to get his money back).

It's been many years since I lived in the UK, so you have more current knowledge of the VAT scheme; yet, I wonder if the VAT is collected differently from the UK or perhaps what you ordered was under some threshold? That's a rhetorical question. I have no interest in belaboring the point, but I do have an insatiable curiosity about everything on the planet and will do further reading.

 

[The Ocelot]

That's definetly a looker Ocelot, hope you love it!

One of the things that attracted me to the Poldiac was that it didn't have a bottom button and the side button didn't remind me of a plumbing part as so many of the other mods do. I really wanted the Aname - silver with brass accents. The more reviews I watch about the bOd Mecha, the more excited I am (plus the person who told me about it loves hers), but the icing on the cake is that I discovered ByLeo sells some kind of brass ring thingy for it, so I will get at least one little brass accent bit.

 

[Hermit]

I never write short rants. Lol! Being The Ocelot, some call them "Rawrs."

I try very hard to be factual and cite sources. I also update my posts should I find something more current or definitive. I have no problem being wrong or having something I have written pointed out as being incorrect. I strive to avoid passing on misinformation, which is why I'll be watching how this matter unfolds, albeit from a distance, since my personal involvement is at an end (unless I can somehow help my friend to get his money back).

It's been many years since I lived in the UK, so you have more current knowledge of the VAT scheme; yet, since Great Briton isn't part of the EU (Praise God! As I still have business there), I wonder if the VAT is collected differently or perhaps what you ordered was under some threshold? That's a rhetorical question. I have no interest in belaboring the point, but I do have an insatiable curiosity about everything on the planet and will do further reading.

I think the only wrong fact is here:

That kind of makes their current "99 Euros" sale a joke, when you'll really be paying 122 Euros, plus shipping

since you'd actually pay 99 plus shipping.

In practical terms, you may as well buy it if you like it, because it's the price you thought it would be to begin with! Your principles are stopping you getting the mod for almost 50 bucks less than your friend would've paid, even if he/she hadn't paid VAT! (/devilsadvocate)

UK is part of the EU. We just don't use the EURO - thank god for that, at least.

 

[The Ocelot]

I think the only wrong fact is here:


since you'd actually pay 99 plus shipping.

In practical terms, you may as well buy it if you like it, because it's the price you thought it would be to begin with! Your principles are stopping you getting the mod for almost 50 bucks less than your friend would've paid, even if he/she hadn't paid VAT! (/devilsadvocate)

UK is part of the EU. We just don't use the EURO - thank god for that, at least.

You caught the EU/UK mistake before I changed it. I was married to an Englishman and I think we just ignored the EU connection. As far as GBP vs. Euros - dodged a bullet on that one (as if it really would have ever passed).

 

[MiriamWTH]

To respond to all the recent questions regarding VAT and export, MMVapors has made the following statement:

In order to not pay VAT as a company in Greece to the Greek tax authorities, the company has to provide 3 documents to the Greek tax authorities proving that the products leave Europe. The first 2 documents are the invoice and the packing list. The last document however is a customs declaration form that can only be prepared (according to Greek law) by an official Greek customs office. This process costs us as a company 50 euro for every single package.

With the normal shipping of a package we try to keep the customer in mind and we try not to declare the value of the contents to be over a certain amount (this varies per country, for the USA for instance this is 200 USD) because any shipment over a certain amount is automatically subject to inspection by the destination country’s customs resulting in customers having to pay extra in custom fees.

When sending a package as an export however, accompanied by the papers of the Greek customs office, we have no choice but to declare the complete value of the package. In other words the customer may end up having to pay even more in charges by their country’s customs office.

The Greek government however does not complain when we add (and pay them) VAT on our shipments even when they do leave Europe.

Because of this we as a company, saw this as the only way not to pay and charge for the expensive export costs since this is cheaper for the customer for any order that is below a certain value (roughly 250 euro depending on country).

http://www.taxheaven.gr/laws/circular/view/id/2424


ps. On a personal note to Ocelot: There was no reason to bastardize my name. My name is Miriam with the Hat, or in short MiriamWTH and not "MiriamWhatTheHell" or "MiriamWTF".

 

[The Ocelot]

Sorry about playing with your name. I went back and edited my posts, I hope I got all of them.

In the meantime, I got another beautiful Greek mod. It's a Gus Kiss Qorax (limited) Edition. I have gotten over my nervousness about bottom buttons, at least with this one.