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ProlineVaper

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Just got a survey from one of the sites I visit often. One of the questions asked if flavored e-juice was banned would I consider pre-mixed flavor blends. I think this would be an excellent option if flavored e-juice were banned. Then just sell the unflavored juice separately. Or even sell VG, PG, nicotine seperately.

Do you think this could be an option for vape shops?

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Amber Petti

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I think it’d be a good option for vape shops to have. Maybe they should already start doing this?
 

SnapDragon NY

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" No person including, but not limited to, a person licensed under chapter 69.50 or 70.345 RCW, may sell, offer for sale, or possess with the intent to sell or offer for sale flavored vapor products or any product that he or she knows or reasonably should know will be used with or in a vapor product to create a flavored vapor product. "

I think you'd have a hard time persuading someone you didn't know they were going to create a flavored vape, with flavorings sold at a vape shop.
If you bought your own flavors for home use- then you'd be adding your own flavors at home.
 
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Jinx'd

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I think you'd have a hard time persuading someone you didn't know they were going to create a flavored vape, with flavorings sold at a vape shop.

this would be the easy part. word gets around, thats how all of this got started in the first place = hey, wanna try my cheap buz pod !
 

lordmage

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the trick to this is Vaping 2.0 is that nothing other then flavoring mixes for "soda" will be sold... everything else is from other sources so the flavoring is safe since your selling is for sodas...

then the buyer buys there" soda" flavoring... does what ever they want with it say adds a seperate Nic shot to it... making it a Flavored product but the deeming is written for expected use....

so the expect use for the "soda" Flavoring is soda....

The Nic shot is the item that must pass the PMTA for sale as a tobacco product...

unless it is sold as a solo item for "pest Exterminations..." such as what nic was and still is. again this is expected sales and use... so the end user is doing all the mixing for use not sale.
 

ProlineVaper

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I see what you are saying, but there are stores all over the US that sell "tobacco pipes", "glass" pens, "glass" tire gauges, etc which we (and the stores selling them) know are all drug paraphernalia. I have even seen **** pipes sold at some convenient stores.

These item all fall under similar laws.

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lordmage

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yes but those are sold and marketed "for tobacco only" as a tobacco accessory now

are use case is a bit harder to enforce.

order drink flavoring from a drink flavoring company see vaping 2.0 announcement or thread ... Deeming does not apply it is sold and marketed as a drink flavoring

order a *seperate nic shot or add your own Nic (*This falls under Deeming if "Sold or marketed" and can not be given when you order the above example to avoid the expectation of it being a nic flavoring)


The key here is SOLD AND Marketed for Vape or Tobacco products use

Vaping 2.0 Is a Hemp Drink flavor as it is market and sold will not come with nic, or sold with nic, or nic given with the sale so therefore the expectation is a Hemp drank flavoring.

the end user who wants to use this as something else must take extra steps to do it. so it can be expected to be used as a drink addictive.

Again the key points are how it is marketed and sold.
 

ProlineVaper

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Well we all know we can buy VG and PG (food or pharmaceutical grade) just about anywhere, so we don't really need a place to buy these. That leaves nicotine and flavors.

For us, there are places to buy flavors such as TFA, FW, CAP...
Flavah may be shut down under new legislation (they advertise specifically for e-juice). So nicotine is our worry... Stock up now and hope it will keep... hope they wind up NOT banning nicotine sales... or switch to 0mg

For the vape shops... really the only profitable market I really see is flavor blends for DIY "beverages, candy, deserts,"etc and marketed as such?


So no nicotine sales at all in US, or just overly taxed nicotine sales?

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Jinx'd

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if this actually just turns out to be 'only' a flavor ban. get used to the few offfered, 0 flavor, and/or addd flavoring to those.
 

lordmage

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Well we all know we can buy VG and PG (food or pharmaceutical grade) just about anywhere, so we don't really need a place to buy these. That leaves nicotine and flavors.

For us, there are places to buy flavors such as TFA, FW, CAP...
Flavah may be shut down under new legislation (they advertise specifically for e-juice). So nicotine is our worry... Stock up now and hope it will keep... hope they wind up NOT banning nicotine sales... or switch to 0mg

For the vape shops... really the only profitable market I really see is flavor blends for DIY "beverages, candy, deserts,"etc and marketed as such?


So no nicotine sales at all in US, or just overly taxed nicotine sales?

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you almost right

Right on the stock up the nic nothing will hurt you there... or the flavorings....

switch to 0 if you can is also a way to go

for the vape shops there kind of stuck selling approved pmta products or glass "tobacco accessories" remember the rules are on the marketing and sale
if they sell a unflavored Nic and those flavored drink blends then the expectation is that both are for Tobacco product consumption especially if Vape is in the name of the shop and they sell Vape Gear. which is why a company like flavah would officially shut down but could open a new company called flavors are us. sell only flavors and market for cooking or baking such as capella and be fine

The local brick and mortar will be hit the worse from the Deeming a "Vape shop " could sell just about anything but if enforcers come along then so do fines unless every thing they have sold or will sell either has FDA approval per the Deeming or has applied and is still waiting for there denial or granted status or is clearly separated from the Vape and Tobacco gear and Marketed and Sold under "some other classification " such as "drink flavors"
they must be sold separately and the accounting must be separate as well ie a second register and license to sell under a different company with separate employees.
there is nothing wrong with "renting" out space for a drink flavor vendor you just can not sell it with nic other wise the expectation is that it is a nic product.
 
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ProlineVaper

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This is CRAZY.....Makes me want to just mix up a bunch of kick ass e juice and hand it out to my fellow vapers who don't know the DIY scene yet...

Or let me guess....you can't give a friend a bottle of your DIY E-juice either....lol



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ProlineVaper

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Even though I know DIY and have enough nicotine pretty much for life. (I've been on the same 120ml of 100mg for 8 months) I am frustrated for the new people trying to make the transition from smoking to vaping! And also for the vape shop owner or online vape site who are most likely going to go out of business. And all for what??? BLOOD MONEY FOR BIG TOBACCO, BIG PHARMA, GOVERNMENT GREED!


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Jinx'd

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Even though I know DIY and have enough nicotine pretty much for life. (I've been on the same 120ml of 100mg for 8 months) I am frustrated for the new people trying to make the transition from smoking to vaping! And also for the vape shop owner or online vape site who are most likely going to go out of business. And all for what??? BLOOD MONEY FOR BIG TOBACCO, BIG PHARMA, GOVERNMENT GREED!

yeah, pretty much. vote democratic and this is what happens.
 

ProlineVaper

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yeah, pretty much. vote democratic and this is what happens.
vote anything anymore ant this is what it's like! They should put someone in office that has actually had to survive in today's world with today's wages...
...I say put an average,everyday citizen in office who has no ties with corporate America and we might get some changes....but then you also got to take into consideration all the other crooked, influenced politicians....

...damn...

...it's a no win situation...

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Jinx'd

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vote anything anymore ant this is what it's like! They should put someone in office that has actually had to survive in today's world with today's wages...
...I say put an average,everyday citizen in office who has no ties with corporate America and we might get some changes....but then you also got to take into consideration all the other crooked, influenced politicians....

...damn...

...it's a no win situation...

true. but this "started" in the democratic cities, then states. the people running those areas have "no idea" what it is to be financially responsible, or even moral . they are about nothing but greed. just look at the chitcago teachers union.
 

The Cromwell

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the trick to this is Vaping 2.0 is that nothing other then flavoring mixes for "soda" will be sold... everything else is from other sources so the flavoring is safe since your selling is for sodas...

then the buyer buys there" soda" flavoring... does what ever they want with it say adds a seperate Nic shot to it... making it a Flavored product but the deeming is written for expected use....

so the expect use for the "soda" Flavoring is soda....

The Nic shot is the item that must pass the PMTA for sale as a tobacco product...

unless it is sold as a solo item for "pest Exterminations..." such as what nic was and still is. again this is expected sales and use... so the end user is doing all the mixing for use not sale.
Actually nicotine has not been commercially available in the US in pesticides since 2014 from what I read recently. And was prohibited for use on organic crops too.
I could find no current uses for nicotine in the US outside of Human consumption in one way or another.
I may well be wrong on this but from what I read.
 

lordmage

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think you might be right on that but so long as a lab can sell it to a consumer i dont see it hard to get. Tax rate could make it un-worth it thou. but like you i could go 0 if i had to
 

The Cromwell

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think you might be right on that but so long as a lab can sell it to a consumer i dont see it hard to get. Tax rate could make it un-worth it thou. but like you i could go 0 if i had to
Yep so long as a lab can sell to an average consumer...
As I have stated before I expect that to change esp if the new nic tax law passes.
The tax law does not seem to differentiate between synthetic nic, tobacco nic or nic derived from other means. Just nic.
The deeming regs does. But only if in approved sealed pods and such.
 

lordmage

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a bit old but a good read about synthetic nic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6329380/ a few snips Published online 2018 Jul 11.

The deeming rule applies only to e-cigarettes that contain nicotine “made or derived from tobacco."
This Article argues that the FDA can, and should, address this problem by regulating synthetic nicotine products as drugs.
One company asked the FDA for clarification on whether synthetic nicotine products would fall within the deeming rule’s scope. Although the FDA explained that synthetic nicotine products must be evaluated on a “case-by-case basis,” it also acknowledged that “it’s possible [such products] would not be regulated by the FDA as [] tobacco product.
 

The Cromwell

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a bit old but a good read about synthetic nic https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6329380/ a few snips Published online 2018 Jul 11.

The deeming rule applies only to e-cigarettes that contain nicotine “made or derived from tobacco."
This Article argues that the FDA can, and should, address this problem by regulating synthetic nicotine products as drugs.
One company asked the FDA for clarification on whether synthetic nicotine products would fall within the deeming rule’s scope. Although the FDA explained that synthetic nicotine products must be evaluated on a “case-by-case basis,” it also acknowledged that “it’s possible [such products] would not be regulated by the FDA as [] tobacco product.
Yep and I recall something about a sealed package approved by the FDA.
 

gsmit1

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The way I see things, and as usual, I hope I'm wrong, if they really want to make it impossible to vape flavored nic juice legally, they will close every technicality and loophole and make it impossible. Unless something changes drastically, I fully expect unflavored nicotine concentrate and even round cell lithium based batteries outside of a protected pack for commercial use to be made illegal to sell or even posses.

Do they want to make it impossible? If money and political ambition are the motivations for all this then yes, they most assuredly do.

Many people don't mind that nanny state. As long as it nannies somebody else.
 

The Cromwell

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Ahh but 18650 cells are used in flashlights. although I do expect them to jump on batteries marketed by the manufacturer as for use in vaping. And especially the rewrappers, most of which deserve to be smacked up the head with a board anyway for their lies on their wrappers.

Sony, LG and Samsung all say their cells are not to be used for vaping, so they are in the clear.

Vaping totally banned? Nope it just has to be approved. Although initially at least I only expect them to approve cigalikes and sealed pod type systems with built in batteries.
How will the gummit get their vape taxes if it is totally banned?

Just like everything else in the USA the small vape outfits will be pushed out and only a few big ones will exist.
Bigger is better in the US after all.
 

The Cromwell

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and that is exactly what most of the kids like. they are easy to hide.
And I also expect a max nic level of 18-20 mg.
That will cut into the buzz phreaks a bit.
And if they quit selling at convenience stores and such...
Raise the nationwide age to buy to 21.
Ohh and a nice fine for trying to buy or possession when underage.
Same restrictions/punishments for tobacco or vape.
those are my recommendations.

Yep no totally solving the problem of kids vaping but it can be reduced a bit. All we can hope for when dealing with kids.
.
 

ProlineVaper

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Ahh but 18650 cells are used in flashlights. although I do expect them to jump on batteries marketed by the manufacturer as for use in vaping. And especially the rewrappers, most of which deserve to be smacked up the head with a board anyway for their lies on their wrappers.

Sony, LG and Samsung all say their cells are not to be used for vaping, so they are in the clear.

Vaping totally banned? Nope it just has to be approved. Although initially at least I only expect them to approve cigalikes and sealed pod type systems with built in batteries.
How will the gummit get their vape taxes if it is totally banned?

Just like everything else in the USA the small vape outfits will be pushed out and only a few big ones will exist.
Bigger is better in the US after all.

Yep...that sounds about right...if your business isn't big enough to pay the mob, uh I mean the taxes, then you can't do business in their territory, I mean country. Sounds almost like the Government is taking lessons from the mob...lmao

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ProlineVaper

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And I also expect a max nic level of 18-20 mg.
That will cut into the buzz phreaks a bit.
And if they quit selling at convenience stores and such...
Raise the nationwide age to buy to 21.
Ohh and a nice fine for trying to buy or possession when underage.
Same restrictions/punishments for tobacco or vape.
those are my recommendations.

Yep no totally solving the problem of kids vaping but it can be reduced a bit. All we can hope for when dealing with kids.
.
There are laws already in place to prevent underage sales that ARE NOT BEING ENFORCED! What makes you believe they are going to enforce the laws (in regards to underage sales) to come such as raising the legal age to 21? I don't really think that underage sales or underage vaping has anything to do with it. The more underage people they can get addicted to nicotine...the more future consumers for the nicotine market...whatever that product will be.

Watch and see. Once they can find a successful way to make money off of vaping products, whether it be by taxes or pharmaceuticals or both...then they will start to lighten up on all this bullshit. Unfortunately, by that time a 30ml bottle of juice may cost $50-$60+.

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Jinx'd

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Raise the nationwide age to buy to 21.
Ohh and a nice fine for trying to buy or possession when underage.
Same restrictions/punishments for tobacco or vape.



.

this is the only common sense solution. but the libs and their bribers don't profit from that.
 

The Cromwell

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There are laws already in place to prevent underage sales that ARE NOT BEING ENFORCED! What makes you believe they are going to enforce the laws (in regards to underage sales) to come such as raising the legal age to 21? I don't really think that underage sales or underage vaping has anything to do with it. The more underage people they can get addicted to nicotine...the more future consumers for the nicotine market...whatever that product will be.

Watch and see. Once they can find a successful way to make money off of vaping products, whether it be by taxes or pharmaceuticals or both...then they will start to lighten up on all this bullshit. Unfortunately, by that time a bottle of 30ml bottle of juice may cost $50-$60+.

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Except for FL I think there is no laws to punish the underage who possess or attempt to buy cigs or vapes.
And I think FL is a possession thing and not sure it is state wide.
 

The Cromwell

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Yep...that sounds about right...if your business isn't big enough to pay the mob, uh I mean the taxes, then you can't do business in their territory, I mean country. Sounds almost like the Government is taking lessons from the mob...lmao

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Pretty much same with all businesses in the USA.
I have over the years seen the small retailers go under because of big outfits moving in with mass buying deals and such to run the little guys out of business.
I remember 5 and dime stores, Western Auto, Radio shack, small mom and pop groceries and clothing and shoe stores.
America is the land of bigger is better.
Same in agriculture, the large corporate farmers have run the little family farms out of business.

One has to assume that the same transitions will take place in the vaping retail/production market.

One of the very few reversals lately have been in the micro brewery game.
But given time most of them will be acquired or consolidated or run out of business....
Quite probably by some of the micros that have already grown to macro...
 

Jinx'd

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There are laws already in place to prevent underage sales that ARE NOT BEING ENFORCED! What makes you believe they are going to enforce the laws (in regards to underage sales) to come such as raising the legal age to 21? I don't really think that underage sales or underage vaping has anything to do with it. The more underage people they can get addicted to nicotine...the more future consumers for the nicotine market...whatever that product will be.

Watch and see. Once they can find a successful way to make money off of vaping products, whether it be by taxes or pharmaceuticals or both...then they will start to lighten up on all this bullshit. Unfortunately, by that time a 30ml bottle of juice may cost $50-$60+.

^ this^. though, around here, they do enforce stuff. but yeah, a $.60 bottle of juice will be $60. and forget about buying nic.
 

Jinx'd

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Want to keep on vaping? Buy nic now and properly freeze it.

i think there is still some time. but what do i know, as i bought mine cause i was worrried. hey, maybe i should buy a bunch of ltr's. then resell them for a huge profit ! = i couldn't sell ice cubes in hell.
 

The Cromwell

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lol. i did the nic usage calculator (does anyone have that ?). and at 100mg, thats close to enough. but most of that is 250mg.
and i know i am going to be cutting back on my daily nic usage. so if i outlive that, idk if i will be lucky or unlucky.
Hmm dying with nic or living without it.
A common smokers dilemma.
 

ProlineVaper

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This is what I've diluted down from 99.5% (995mg) pure nicotine

top shelf...1740ml 100mg nicotine in 120ml bottles /w argon to eliminate oxygen

middle shelf...120ml 325mg nicotine... 1560ml 250mg nicotine in 120ml bottles /w wine preserver to eliminate oxygen


Private Preserve SS-TRU-1026 1026 Wine Preserver, The Original Inert Gas Aerosol 1 EA Multicolor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IB7PHSE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_GQ5RDbFYF9Y7E


I figure I should have enough for me and my wife for years to come and then some. We are still on the same 120ml bottle of 100mg nic we opened a little over 8 months ago.

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Grandpa

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I see what you are saying, but there are stores all over the US that sell "tobacco pipes", "glass" pens, "glass" tire gauges, etc which we (and the stores selling them) know are all drug paraphernalia. I have even seen **** pipes sold at some convenient stores.

These item all fall under similar laws.

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Something I remember from about 10 years ago. I was buying my cigs over the river in Nebraska (I live in Iowa). A lot of folks were buying cigarette tobacco and making their own cigs with those machines and tubes you can get online. State decided they wanted the tax revenue so they jacked up the tax on loose cigarette tobacco 10x what it had been. Suddenly, loose cigarette tobacco became "pipe" tobacco overnight. Same tobacco, same packaging with different use listed on the package. And the old tax rate because the state never jacked up the rate on pipe tobacco.

Where there's a will, there's a way. Vaping products are no different. I have bought hardware from Fast Tech recently that was manifested as "electronic components".
 

gsmit1

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Something I remember from about 10 years ago. I was buying my cigs over the river in Nebraska (I live in Iowa). A lot of folks were buying cigarette tobacco and making their own cigs with those machines and tubes you can get online. State decided they wanted the tax revenue so they jacked up the tax on loose cigarette tobacco 10x what it had been. Suddenly, loose cigarette tobacco became "pipe" tobacco overnight. Same tobacco, same packaging with different use listed on the package. And the old tax rate because the state never jacked up the rate on pipe tobacco.

Where there's a will, there's a way. Vaping products are no different. I have bought hardware from Fast Tech recently that was manifested as "electronic components".
Of course I'm on your side, but how are you going to spin "liquid nicotine in pg/vg"? What else can it be for?
 

gsmit1

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i have never had something from them labled vape. faucet parts was one of them.
Yeah, the Chinese vendors seem to always label stuff as something else, which is good. :)
drain cleaner ! :giggle::facepalm:
I can think of a dozen ways they can make it impossible to vape nicotine legally (without a prescription). If I can think of them, they can certainly think of them too. The only way to stop them from doing that is to stop them from wanting to do it. Which means, it will have to become more politically expedient to support it and or more politically damaging to oppose it.

As long as there are hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, they will not think twice about banning liquid nicotine in all it's forms and banning for private use the batteries we use. Including internals and lipos where there is a reasonable expectation that they will be used for vaping.
 

The Cromwell

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I order quite a few electroic parts from China.
the custom descriptions are nonsense. IC's may be labelled 'plastic sheets'...
 

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