Percentages when formulating recipes

[Comfygirl]

Hello, I've been pouring over old posts trying to figure out the "HOW" of determining percentages. I found an enourmously helpful video explaining high notes and main notes and supporting notes but it wasn't extrememly clear. Can someone point me in the direction of useful information regarding how you'd come to determine percentages? I do realize of course, that taste is perspectively determined; I can personally handle small alterations for personal taste (and variations between brands) but the overall concept.
For example... if I wanted to add Catalan Cream to Butterscotch. I'd want an overall percentage of 10%. How does one determine how much Catalan Cream to how much Butterscotch ration? And then if I wanted to add in a bakery note...say graham cracker clear or cookie... how do you factor that into the main percentage breakdown?
I'm not after someone giving me a personal tutorial (although that would be GREAT!!!) I'm not lazy, I'll pour though any videos and posts... I just feel like I'm spinning my wheels over the same information that gets me in the ball park but doesn't really explain the unassisted triple play...

 

[Heabob]

Hello, I've been pouring over old posts trying to figure out the "HOW" of determining percentages. I found an enourmously helpful video explaining high notes and main notes and supporting notes but it wasn't extrememly clear. Can someone point me in the direction of useful information regarding how you'd come to determine percentages? I do realize of course, that taste is perspectively determined; I can personally handle small alterations for personal taste (and variations between brands) but the overall concept.
For example... if I wanted to add Catalan Cream to Butterscotch. I'd want an overall percentage of 10%. How does one determine how much Catalan Cream to how much Butterscotch ration? And then if I wanted to add in a bakery note...say graham cracker clear or cookie... how do you factor that into the main percentage breakdown?
I'm not after someone giving me a personal tutorial (although that would be GREAT!!!) I'm not lazy, I'll pour though any videos and posts... I just feel like I'm spinning my wheels over the same information that gets me in the ball park but doesn't really explain the unassisted triple play...

Don't know if Catalan Cream would go well with Butterscotch.
And Butterscotch is a pretty mild delicate flavor that even needs some help to get there usually.
So Butterscotch would be the Primary flavor, and has to be used quite high to taste anything.
Flavors that might help push it: Caramel, Brown Sugar, Marshmallow, Jamaican Rum, FW Butter Pecan, etc.)
Mixing several different brands of Butterscotch sometimes helps too.
I usually run 3 different brands at 3% each, so a 10% limit only leaves 1% for others.
These are the types that need higher total flavorings, and could easily go 15-20%.
Made a Butterscotch Cakebatter that I thought was pretty good, but not at home to find it right now.

FYI: The Catalan has a spicy note that may conflict, you'd be better off picking a more neutral Cream, or a sweeter one.
Kinda have to think like your baking with different flavors, or notes.

1. Primary flavor (the main flavor/s you want to taste up front)
2. Secondary flavor (could be in tandem with the main flavor, or not)
3. Accent flavor (could be 1 or more, may include creams, vanillas, joy, nonna's, etc)
4. Minor flavor (could be 1 or more, things for fluff, body, sweetness, & baked effect)
5. Sweeteners (optional)

Most of the add-on flavors you really can't taste, but more like feel, or perception.
(Like 0.5% FA Marshmallow, 0.5% FA Coconut, 0.5% FA Meringue, etc.)

One of the reasons it takes some longer to find their preferred ratios.
Have to experiment to find it because recipes sometimes taste different for each person.
Some have trouble tasting fruits, creams, vanilla, etc.
And others are over sensitive to the same flavors.

If you can't find any recipes that work for you, you'll either have to tweak them to your liking, or start from scratch.
The other problem is some need 20% flavoring to taste and others use 2%.

 

[Comfygirl]

Thanks!! I wasn't really going to use Catalan Cream, it was just what came to mind. But, I've never heard of that type of cream until I started this so I'm not really sure how sweet it tastes. I think I read a few posts that recommended mixing butterscotch with irish cream.

As for as this:
1. Primary flavor (the main flavor/s you want to taste up front)
2. Secondary flavor (could be in tandem with the main flavor, or not)
3. Accent flavor (could be 1 or more, may include creams, vanillas, joy, nonna's, etc)
4. Minor flavor (could be 1 or more, things for fluff, body, sweetness, & baked effect)
5. Sweeteners (optional)

Would you generally follow some sort of guideline that says the primary flavor should be 9% and the secondary 4% and accents 2% and like you said the add-ons .25-1%

 

[Heabob]

Would you generally follow some sort of guideline that says the primary flavor should be 9% and the secondary 4% and accents 2% and like you said the add-ons .25-1%

Really depends on what the flavors are, and what brands.
Not all flavors/brands will work at the same amounts
For example: INW Shisha Strawberry 2%, but TFA Strawberry Ripe is usually 7% or more.
Typical secondaries are 1-3%, but like VBIC it's usually 4-5%.

 

[Comfygirl]

Here's a question in the ball park.
If you want to make blueberry glazed donut and you have blueberry and glazed donut. Occum's razor says to mix 50/50 for a 10% range?
But, so you're saying that because I have TFA Wild Blueberry and Capella's Glazed donut that I wouldn't need to tinker because TFA is not as strong as Capella?

 

[AndriaD]

Thanks!! I wasn't really going to use Catalan Cream, it was just what came to mind. But, I've never heard of that type of cream until I started this so I'm not really sure how sweet it tastes. I think I read a few posts that recommended mixing butterscotch with irish cream.

As for as this:
1. Primary flavor (the main flavor/s you want to taste up front)
2. Secondary flavor (could be in tandem with the main flavor, or not)
3. Accent flavor (could be 1 or more, may include creams, vanillas, joy, nonna's, etc)
4. Minor flavor (could be 1 or more, things for fluff, body, sweetness, & baked effect)
5. Sweeteners (optional)

Would you generally follow some sort of guideline that says the primary flavor should be 9% and the secondary 4% and accents 2% and like you said the add-ons .25-1%

No... the main flavor, 50%-ish.... all supporting flavors (creams/vanillas/sweetener) combined, another 50%-ish. As to the exact ratio of each of the supporting flavors, that's where you have to experiment, and see what hits your tastebuds right -- it might take a few tries to get it just right.

A total of 10% flavoring is so little that it will almost certainly need a long steep, so you won't know for several weeks if you've hit it right or not -- a better idea is to initially try about 25% flavoring, so that you can taste-test it right away, and see how the ratios hit you; if you find a mix that you like, you can THEN bring it down to 10%-15% flavoring, because the steep time won't be wasted time.

Andria

 

[Heabob]

A total of 10% flavoring is so little that it will almost certainly need a long steep, so you won't know for several weeks

I don't base my steep time on total flavoring, but just on what flavors are being used.
If anything, some flavors used in high amounts need more steeping just to calm down.

Keep in mind you're not really an average flavor amount user like most of us.
No offense meant of course.

 

[AndriaD]

I don't base my steep time on total flavoring, but just on what flavors are being used.
If anything, some flavors used in high amounts need more steeping just to calm down.

Keep in mind you're not really an average flavor amount user like most of us.
No offense meant of course.

That's true, and though I don't know one way or the other about the OP, it's often true that when we first start out,. after years of abusing our tastebuds, they just don't work right, often for a considerable time after quitting -- which is another reason to use higher amounts of flavoring, when first starting, so you can actually TASTE it, instead of just smell it. Mine are finally starting to wake up, so it might be possible to eventually get to a more normal sense of taste. But when one is first trying to get the feel of the various flavors, of the right proportions for mixing, it DEFINITELY needs to be tastable, and not have to wait around with your thumb up your butt, not knowing if the mix worked or not; it's just a waste of time, which can be avoided simply by using enough flavoring. Absolutely they can be scaled back, once you have the right mix; being able to taste it is how you know it's good or not, worth being worked on further.

Andria

 

[Heabob]

Here's a question in the ball park.
If you want to make blueberry glazed donut and you have blueberry and glazed donut. Occum's razor says to mix 50/50 for a 10% range?
But, so you're saying that because I have TFA Wild Blueberry and Capella's Glazed donut that I wouldn't need to tinker because TFA is not as strong as Capella?

I usually test a recipe I've found at the percents listed first, some exceptions if there too high tho.
Then make adjustments on second batch if needed.
So you should try it "as is" first.
This is all part of "learning your flavors", or should I say, "learning your flavor tolerance/preference".

Blueberry Wild I consider to be a "mid-high range" flavor.
Meaning at 5% it's pretty mild, but fine for stand alone or with a small amount of light cream added.
But 7-10% is better when mixing a bunch of other flavors, or flavors that may be stronger.
CAP Glazed Doughnut may need adjusting, and isn't sweet at all IMO.
Or lower the Blueberry if you can't taste enough Doughnut.
(Or add a tiny bit of INW Biscuit, FA Cookie, or CAP Sugar Cookie)

If I had to guess at a starting point for me anyway:
7% TFA Blueberry Wild
3% CAP Glazed Doughnut

1-2 drops sweetener in 15ml
OR
0.5% FA Nonna's Cake
0.5% FA Marshmallow

 

[Heabob]

That's true, and though I don't know one way or the other about the OP

Don't recall her other posts talking about not being able to taste things very well, although I might be wrong...

 

[Heabob]

No... the main flavor, 50%-ish.... all supporting flavors (creams/vanillas/sweetener) combined, another 50%-ish.

That's pretty close to what I do myself, great for a starting point, and/or making things with 2-4 flavors.
Some exceptions for recipes with 10 flavors, or those using a stronger main flavor.

 

[Comfygirl]

No... the main flavor, 50%-ish.... all supporting flavors (creams/vanillas/sweetener) combined, another 50%-ish. As to the exact ratio of each of the supporting flavors, that's where you have to experiment, and see what hits your tastebuds right -- it might take a few tries to get it just right.

A total of 10% flavoring is so little that it will almost certainly need a long steep, so you won't know for several weeks if you've hit it right or not -- a better idea is to initially try about 25% flavoring, so that you can taste-test it right away, and see how the ratios hit you; if you find a mix that you like, you can THEN bring it down to 10%-15% flavoring, because the steep time won't be wasted time.

Andria

Ok. thanks! That makes sense.

 

[Comfygirl]

I usually test a recipe I've found at the percents listed first, some exceptions if there too high tho.
Then make adjustments on second batch if needed.
So you should try it "as is" first.
This is all part of "learning your flavors", or should I say, "learning your flavor tolerance/preference".

Blueberry Wild I consider to be a "mid-high range" flavor.
Meaning at 5% it's pretty mild, but fine for stand alone or with a small amount of light cream added.
But 7-10% is better when mixing a bunch of other flavors, or flavors that may be stronger.
CAP Glazed Doughnut may need adjusting, and isn't sweet at all IMO.
Or lower the Blueberry if you can't taste enough Doughnut.
(Or add a tiny bit of INW Biscuit, FA Cookie, or CAP Sugar Cookie)

If I had to guess at a starting point for me anyway:
7% TFA Blueberry Wild
3% CAP Glazed Doughnut

1-2 drops sweetener in 15ml
OR
0.5% FA Nonna's Cake
0.5% FA Marshmallow

So much info! Thanks!!! I'm eternally indebted to you.

Check on learning...
I've read that the Sheesha strawberry is quite strong... I should probably drop the fruit percentage to 2 for this particular brand of strawberry right?

 

[Redchigh]

My method, is to look up 'starting percentages' for flavors.

Primary flavor- use 75% of reccomended.
Secondary- 50% of reccomended.
All other flavors, 10% of start.

Im usin hiliq flavors, which might just be weird...
But i notice, for example, it takes about 10% of a single flavor. (For this conversation, we'll say its blueberry.)

If I reduce for a blend and make it 50% (of reccomended) blueberry, 25% (of reccomended), and various other creams and a dash of cookie, I cant taste a whole lot of anything even after steeping. I have to use 75-100% of reccomended for the main flavor, and increase the others proportionately... I end up with a decent flavor, but it ends up being almost 25% flavor total in the mix. Seems intense.

 

[Redchigh]

So much info! Thanks!!! I'm eternally indebted to you.

Check on learning...
I've read that the Sheesha strawberry is quite strong... I should probably drop the fruit percentage to 2 for this particular brand of strawberry right?

I wouldn't worry about your total flavoring percentage. Maybe if you think of it as a reduction of the starting percentage?

 

[AndriaD]

So much info! Thanks!!! I'm eternally indebted to you.

Check on learning...
I've read that the Sheesha strawberry is quite strong... I should probably drop the fruit percentage to 2 for this particular brand of strawberry right?

Most folks seem to use shisha strawberry at 1%-4%, because yeah it's pretty strong -- I'm the odd duck who uses more than 14% of it, and started at 16%, I've brought it down 9% from that!

Andria

 

[Heabob]

So much info! Thanks!!! I'm eternally indebted to you.

Check on learning...
I've read that the Sheesha strawberry is quite strong... I should probably drop the fruit percentage to 2 for this particular brand of strawberry right?

Your Welcome.

Yes the typical, or normal, starting point for Shisha SB is 2% for many, including myself.
So the total percents can go out the window sometimes.
You can easily add another 5% of certain other flavors and it won't even dent the Strawberry.
Make it 10% and you may need to raise the SB to 3%, but it really depends on which flavors are added.

 

[Comfygirl]

I usually test a recipe I've found at the percents listed first, some exceptions if there too high tho.
Then make adjustments on second batch if needed.
So you should try it "as is" first.
This is all part of "learning your flavors", or should I say, "learning your flavor tolerance/preference".

Blueberry Wild I consider to be a "mid-high range" flavor.
Meaning at 5% it's pretty mild, but fine for stand alone or with a small amount of light cream added.
But 7-10% is better when mixing a bunch of other flavors, or flavors that may be stronger.
CAP Glazed Doughnut may need adjusting, and isn't sweet at all IMO.
Or lower the Blueberry if you can't taste enough Doughnut.
(Or add a tiny bit of INW Biscuit, FA Cookie, or CAP Sugar Cookie)

If I had to guess at a starting point for me anyway:
7% TFA Blueberry Wild
3% CAP Glazed Doughnut

1-2 drops sweetener in 15ml
OR
0.5% FA Nonna's Cake
0.5% FA Marshmallow

Holy smokes I just made this with marshmallow and it's insanely good!
I wanted to try it with Nonnas cake but I'm out...of...bottles... I have to finish one to make a new one! CFO says I have to wait until my next pay day to gett more haha!!

 

[Heabob]

Holy smokes I just made this with marshmallow and it's insanely good!
I wanted to try it with Nonnas cake but I'm out...of...bottles... I have to finish one to make a new one! CFO says I have to wait until my next pay day to gett more haha!!

Great job, see, experimenting sometimes pays off.
Some of the simple 2-3 flavor mixes are quite good.

1% INW Biscuit(or 2% FA Cookie) + 0.75% INW Shisha Vanilla also go well with Blueberry and most other fruits.
Probably could even keep the Marshmallow.
And FA Maple Syrup goes well with Blueberry.
And Vanilla Bean Ice Cream...
And Yogurt
And...

If you like Blueberry I'd bet you'd like (ECX)FE Blackberry too, 1.5-2%, strong one.

FYI: Be careful with flavors like Cherry, Raspberry, Tiramisu, Coffee, Bilberry, Cappuccino, & Caramel Cappuccino.
Even at 1% some of these may be too strong.
Probably missed a few.

 

[Comfygirl]

Great job, see, experimenting sometimes pays off.
Some of the simple 2-3 flavor mixes are quite good.

1% INW Biscuit(or 2% FA Cookie) + 0.75% INW Shisha Vanilla also go well with Blueberry and most other fruits.
Probably could even keep the Marshmallow.
And FA Maple Syrup goes well with Blueberry.
And Vanilla Bean Ice Cream...
And Yogurt
And...

If you like Blueberry I'd bet you'd like (ECX)FE Blackberry too, 1.5-2%, strong one.

FYI: Be careful with flavors like Cherry, Raspberry, Tiramisu, Coffee, Bilberry, Cappuccino, & Caramel Cappuccino.
Even at 1% some of these may be too strong.
Probably missed a few.

I have three different Tiramisu recipes sitting in my cabinet. At 1% they are too much. I'm thinking of bombarding them with caramel t o sweeten them up.

 

[Heabob]

I have three different Tiramisu recipes sitting in my cabinet. At 1% they are too much. I'm thinking of bombarding them with caramel t o sweeten them up.

Some Sweet Cream, Marshmallow, and/or Sweetener/Stevia may help too.
Or by diluting the mix 50%.
Had to dump a few tho, I just couldn't fix them

 

[Comfygirl]

Some Sweet Cream, Marshmallow, and/or Sweetener/Stevia may help too.
Or by diluting the mix 50%.
Had to dump a few tho, I just couldn't fix them

I'm thinking 3 bottles isn't bad for a beginner...
What's the difference between sweet cream and Bavarian and Vienna cream? Is there a detailed description of creams besides that which HIC wrote?

 

[Lotus Insane]

I'm thinking 3 bottles isn't bad for a beginner...
What's the difference between sweet cream and Bavarian and Vienna cream? Is there a detailed description of creams besides that which HIC wrote?

Best way to tell the difference is to make a batch of the flavor by itself (of course with pg and vg) at a percent around 4%ish? (Correct me if I am wrong) That way you know what the flavor will be. And you will also be able to tell what steeping times it will need.

 

[AndriaD]

I'm thinking 3 bottles isn't bad for a beginner...
What's the difference between sweet cream and Bavarian and Vienna cream? Is there a detailed description of creams besides that which HIC wrote?

Sweet cream is just that, cream. Bavarian is more like custard. No idea what vienna cream is, nor catalan. I once tried to get people to tell me the diff between bavarian cream and custard, and nobody could, and I still don't see a lot of diff; I would have thought that bavarian would be sweeter than custard, but with TFA flavors, Vanilla Swirl (their diketone-free version of vanilla custard, which is great) is actually a smidge sweeter than their DX Bavarian.

Andria

 

[freemind]

Here's a question in the ball park.
If you want to make blueberry glazed donut and you have blueberry and glazed donut. Occum's razor says to mix 50/50 for a 10% range?
But, so you're saying that because I have TFA Wild Blueberry and Capella's Glazed donut that I wouldn't need to tinker because TFA is not as strong as Capella?

Since I mix this, I will tell you a few things.
1 CAP doughnut is a cake batter flavor, not a doughnut.
2 TFA is the only doughnut flavor I have found so far that tasted like doughnut.
3 I use blueberry extra.
TFA doughnut 8%
TFA blueberry extra 5%

It's not a in your face flavor juice, but I like it.

If you went 50/50 , I feel you would tone out the doughnut flavor.

 

[Heabob]

I'm thinking 3 bottles isn't bad for a beginner...
What's the difference between sweet cream and Bavarian and Vienna cream? Is there a detailed description of creams besides that which HIC wrote?

Well I don't use Vienna at all anymore as it's kinda sour, but not the tart kind.
I like Sweet Cream the best and I use it way more than Bavarian.
Strange to because I think TFA Dairy Milk is maybe sweeter than the Sweet Creams, lol, go figure.
@Andria noted that Bavarian was like Custard but I don't think it can even come close to CAP Vanilla Custard v1 myself.
But I never really gave it much thought for using as a Custard, may have to experiment more.
Although I've found Bavarian needs a long steep just like Custards do.
TFA Bavarian has kind of a "bite" to it that I had to steep for a month to get rid of it.
CAP, FW, and TFA DX Bavarian seem to have way less, if any, of that effect.

 

[Heabob]

TFA is the only doughnut flavor I have found so far that tasted like doughnut.

Had to put this one on my list as I really don't like the CAP version too much.
Also noticed Blueberry Extra seems a bit stronger than Blueberry Wild, unless it's faded some.

Looks like a good base for Blueberry Doughnut you listed tho, thanks, made a note of it to try.

 

[Vaperyan]

My method, is to look up 'starting percentages' for flavors.

Primary flavor- use 75% of reccomended.
Secondary- 50% of reccomended.
All other flavors, 10% of start.

Im usin hiliq flavors, which might just be weird...
But i notice, for example, it takes about 10% of a single flavor. (For this conversation, we'll say its blueberry.)

If I reduce for a blend and make it 50% (of reccomended) blueberry, 25% (of reccomended), and various other creams and a dash of cookie, I cant taste a whole lot of anything even after steeping. I have to use 75-100% of reccomended for the main flavor, and increase the others proportionately... I end up with a decent flavor, but it ends up being almost 25% flavor total in the mix. Seems intense.

Hello Redchigh, Blueberry is very potent. There are flavors which are very strong that may overpower others resulting to the blends we don't expect. So it is important for us to learn on the flavors potency. Hope you can find a good mix among our flavors! Let me know if you need help.

 

[Redchigh]

Holy smokes I just made this with marshmallow and it's insanely good!
I wanted to try it with Nonnas cake but I'm out...of...bottles... I have to finish one to make a new one! CFO says I have to wait until my next pay day to gett more haha!!

SAME! I've starting vaping more just to use up fluid so ill have more bottles... Lol.