question about new regs

[Jai Haze]

Im calling forth some of the guru's here. I know that you cannot help set up a device for a customer or touch their device unless you file as a tobacco manufacturer. But I am having a really hard time finding that in the deeming regs. I find alot of this online

• Repairs of vaping and e-cig equipment via a firmware fix will no longer be readily available, unless the manufacturer chooses to pay the million-dollar PMTA fee.

But I cant actually find it in the regs. Any help here would be greatly appreciated. Then the next question if the answer is true; technically you cannot offer a return because youre touching their device yes?

 

[KDodds]

I don't recall any specific area either, even having read the whole thing. What I *do* remember is the part about making parts (coils) for devices or repairing devices requiring filing. Showing them how to coil and wick and letting them learn by example wouldn't qualify, but doing it for them would. But, showing them how to use the eVic AIO out of box? No, you're not doing anything at all that could be considered repairing, rebuilding, or modifying.

There's also another section about not being able to discuss health related issues. But there again, I didn't see anything about recommendations and advice from a technical standpoint. For example, it could be construed as "health advice" if you suggest a client try this or that new RDA if they want to chuck clouds. BUT, if you discuss the technical merits of the device's features with respect to producing vapor, I don't see how that can be related to health.

I think what a lot of people are doing is erring on the side of caution and forbidding employees from discussing or touching anything.

 

[Jai Haze]

yeah see thats the issue I am having. On here http://vaping.org/august-8-2016-mean-vaping/ they state this

"Traditionally, vape shop employees have educated new customers about proper care and usage of a device by physically assisting the customer with setting up their device or actively troubleshooting problems. This includes tasks like connecting a tank to a battery, screwing in a coil, filling a tank with e-liquid, etc. Some vape shops also offer to rebuild coils across a variety of devices to the individual specification of the user.

In the FDA’s view, these acts can no longer be performed by retailers — with very limited possible exceptions — because they constitute “manufacturing.” Retailers can continue to educate consumers on how to use the products, but it appears that employees cannot physically manipulate any product that is being sold."

where did they get that from? Are they interpreting it to their own words?

 

[sychosis]

yeah see thats the issue I am having. On here http://vaping.org/august-8-2016-mean-vaping/ they state this

"Traditionally, vape shop employees have educated new customers about proper care and usage of a device by physically assisting the customer with setting up their device or actively troubleshooting problems. This includes tasks like connecting a tank to a battery, screwing in a coil, filling a tank with e-liquid, etc. Some vape shops also offer to rebuild coils across a variety of devices to the individual specification of the user.

In the FDA’s view, these acts can no longer be performed by retailers — with very limited possible exceptions — because they constitute “manufacturing.” Retailers can continue to educate consumers on how to use the products, but it appears that employees cannot physically manipulate any product that is being sold."

where did they get that from? Are they interpreting it to their own words?

That seems to be a shit storm waiting to happen u know ! What happens when el cheapo hoes in a shit b&m and they Sella noon a mech tube and a tank not set up for it and then just hand them a pile of gear and wave !!!!

We are gonna have more accidents and battery issues tarnishing our names and savior because of these asshats.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

 

[KDodds]

I believe they are, and I believe that one particular article is probably the quoted resource for any number of folks parroting the information. I saw nothing in the regs that would prevent a shop employee from a) showing a customer how to use their device on a sample model or b) showing a customer who purchased devices how to use them. That interpretation would be akin to calling gas station attendants "auto makers", and I don't recall reading anything THAT stupid in the regs.

 

[Jai Haze]

That seems to be a shit storm waiting to happen u know ! What happens when el cheapo hoes in a shit b&m and they Sella noon a mech tube and a tank not set up for it and then just hand them a pile of gear and wave !!!!

We are gonna have more accidents and battery issues tarnishing our names and savior because of these asshats.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

right but everywhere you go they will tell you that they cant touch a device. I am not saying I agree with it, im trying to find the root of it

 

[Jai Haze]

I believe they are, and I believe that one particular article is probably the quoted resource for any number of folks parroting the information. I saw nothing in the regs that would prevent a shop employee from a) showing a customer how to use their device on a sample model or b) showing a customer who purchased devices how to use them. That interpretation would be akin to calling gas station attendants "auto makers", and I don't recall reading anything THAT stupid in the regs.

so would it be safe to say we CAN touch their devices? Man this is frustrating

 

[SMOKIE]

Guess you just have to send them to online sites to show how, and firmware fix is mostly from China anyway where they go to the MFG site for the link.

Maybe best to have all these guides in here at the VU so any vendor can direct customers here.

 

[Jai Haze]

I mean where does it even say we cannot build coils?

 

[SMOKIE]

As a forum, and regular members we are allowed to answer any help questions, plus we do have access to a live video if needed like skype, and Vsee for hands on help. But would need volunteers or maybe vendor sponsors.

 

[KDodds]

so would it be safe to say we CAN touch their devices? Man this is frustrating

LOL. As with just about everything in the regs, the FDA seems to want to reserve the right to apply their own interpretation to their own words which can clearly not mean anything close to what they mean in real English. In other words, anything that can go into a device that could possibly be used to contain nicotine is a tobacco product. So, if you sell eliquid with no nicotine in it, it's deemed a tobacco product according to the regs. Yet, when challenged on this is court, the FDA states that they can not be challenged because the challenger doesn't know if its product is subject to the deeming regs. And, yes, they said, "doesn't know" (in paraphrase, I didn't memorize verbatim). They did NOT say that the product WASN'T subject to the deeming regs. They are bing intentionally obscure in order to reinterpret their own words at a later date to make them mean whatever they want them to mean when they want that meaning to apply.

Personally, if I owned a vape shop, I would stay away from mentioning anything health related and I would cease making liquids and coils on site. I would outsource these to a Chinese manufacturer. I would also implement a hobbyists program and hold classes on various subjects from electronics to DIY. But that's me. Only you can decide what's right for you, and, if you own a shop, your lawyer should help you with those decisions, not me.

 

[KDodds]

As a forum, and regular members we are allowed to answer any help questions, plus we do have access to a live video if needed like skype, and Vsee for hands on help. But would need volunteers or maybe vendor sponsors.

This is also a very good point. I have, in the past, routinely pointed people having trouble in PetCo's fish department to specific forums for actual help, advice, and so on.

 

[SMOKIE]

I mean where does it even say we cannot build coils?

Jai if you need real questions answered contact Greg on Facebook, he will answer all your questions. Tell him your a friend of mine, and have a shop in NJ. Greg is from NJ. PM sent to you

 

[Jai Haze]

Guess you just have to send them to online sites to show how, and firmware fix is mostly from China anyway where they go to the MFG site for the link.

Maybe best to have all these guides in here at the VU so any vendor can direct customers here.

but thats the thing brother, where does it say in the regs we cant touch the device? If we are going to warrant a return arent we going to touch it to see if its broke which would be against FDA according to oooo just about everything online

 

[Jai Haze]

Jai if you need real questions answered contact Greg on Facebook, he will answer all your questions. Tell him your a friend of mine, and have a shop in NJ. Greg is from NJ. PM sent to you

yeah i speak to greg on the regular, he hasnt been able to answer this question though. The single coil selling he said is ok like atomizer head but he cant find it or doesnt know the answer to that one

 

[SMOKIE]

yeah i speak to greg on the regular, he hasnt been able to answer this question though. The single coil selling he said is ok like atomizer head but he cant find it or doesnt know the answer to that one

That is strange, then I say then do as normal until someone tells you different

 

[Jai Haze]

lol @SMOKIE I could do that, but you heard about the list and the fines they put out right? I dont want to get hit with fines and people telling me YOU Cant do it. I cant even find the legitimacy of not being able to build coils. Man this is such a headache

 

[SMOKIE]

lol @SMOKIE I could do that, but you heard about the list and the fines they put out right? I dont want to get hit with fines and people telling me YOU Cant do it. I cant even find the legitimacy of not being able to build coils. Man this is such a headache

OK then there are always ways around things, like in one shop I know a cash paid employee sits around like a customer all the time in that shop with helping customers, lol

 

[KDodds]

lol @SMOKIE I could do that, but you heard about the list and the fines they put out right? I dont want to get hit with fines and people telling me YOU Cant do it. I cant even find the legitimacy of not being able to build coils. Man this is such a headache

Actually, the first time is a warning, iirc, second is a fine up to $275 (I think, not sure). And they're specifically looking for "underage sales" anyway, not coil sellers. So even if you get nabbed, you're a first timer, and then the word can be spread.

 

[Jai Haze]

OK then there are always ways around things, like in one shop I know a cash paid employee sits around like a customer all the time in that shop with helping customers, lol

I love this workaround. I may do that. I even heard you cant even do discounts on liquids. I wish there was a cut and dry list of the laws so everyone can understand them fully INCLUDING myself. I hate not knowing or even guessing on what can or cannot be done. I guess I will continue to assit people as there is nothing saying I cannot

 

[KDodds]

You can't give away free samples, but as long as your discount is "fair", you're good. IOW, I wouldn't try to sell below cost. They can't tell you how much profit you must make.

 

[Jai Haze]

You can't give away free samples, but as long as your discount is "fair", you're good. IOW, I wouldn't try to sell below cost. They can't tell you how much profit you must make.

very true brother. Very true. I know the free samples is a def. I mean its on their flyer. But I dont see anything about not making coils or even touching a device anywher eon their flyer. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/Labeling/ProductsIngredientsComponents/UCM499168.pdf

 

[SMOKIE]

I love this workaround. I may do that. I even heard you cant even do discounts on liquids. I wish there was a cut and dry list of the laws so everyone can understand them fully INCLUDING myself. I hate not knowing or even guessing on what can or cannot be done. I guess I will continue to assit people as there is nothing saying I cannot

For the most part regular customers you know is no problem, just watch for the new vaper, sell him but do not show how. Get a TV going with a list of reviews and how to videos by others to play in the shop when asked.

 

[SMOKIE]

Or whip out a tablet for the customer to watch, lol It's not you showing.

 

[KDodds]

Shop near me uses an iPad set up for their register. Nothing says you can't browse to YouTube for a favored tutorial or review and spin the tablet around.

 

[mikeyboy74]

Anything to prevent the shops from holding events, where experienced customers can help everyone? Maybe after hours, by invitation? A customer should be able to help another, without acting as an employee....or so I would hope.

In our area, usually no problem finding vapers in the shops, so the population base would be there. However, we can still vape in vape shops in our state....not true everywhere. I remember buying an Arctic in Boston last year, and by law, I had to go outside to try it out. Not a way to build community.

 

[Eskie]

The problem is you have 500 pages of regulations that are ambiguous and subject to interpretation. Clearly the first steps they're taking in enforcement relate to underage sales. That's a straightforward issue, especially in a shop rather than an online transaction. Ask for and look at the ID and you're done.

Other aspects will be implemented over time. The next step will be the beginning of next year, when you will be required to register and supply a list of all ENDS products sold and/or made by you, i.e. a coil. If you make something, a coil, a juice, etc you are a manufacturer. That opens the door to require you to file a formal application for approval documenting essentially why your product is safe and a benefit to public health (yes, I know, why is a coil safe and a net benefit to public health ).

The biggest problem for shops will be those that mix their own juice. Then you are definitely a manufacturer. You would be required to file a PMTA for every juice mix offered at every strength. Good luck with that.

The current debate, or source of anxiety, is whether or not assembling a product for a customer to use would make you a manufacturer, and subject to all the high hurdles required. Will placing a tank on a mod or inserting a battery for a customer be regarded as manufacturing by the FDA? Answer? No one really knows how the FDA will interpret their vague and ambiguous regulations when it comes to stuff like that. They do want to differentiate a retailer from manufacturer, so if you are a shop owner, remaining a retailer is probably going to have far fewer headaches than being labeled a manufacturer.

The absolute safest thing to do? Hand a shrink wrapped item to a buyer and have them pay for it, and if they then open it and have a problem, tell them to go call/write/email the manufacturer. The reasonable thing to do? Help a customer put their kit together after they buy it. By then the transaction is complete, and they own it. You're not "manufacturing" it. The normal thing to do? Go about opening and demonstrating the product according to the manufacturer's guidelines, but do not offer or sell some "aftermarket" product to them that your shop "made". Then you're a manufacturer, not a retailer.

And any house juices? Well, there it's not so ambiguous. You will be considered a manufacturer, and for now, subject to an excessive, time consuming, expensive application process with no guarantee of approval. Maybe that will change, but probably not.