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samsung 25r help
- Thread starter jsr27
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NemesisVaper
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150W ÷ 6.4V = 23.44A so if you're vaping at 150W with near dead cells then technically no, you're outside the CDR of a 25R.
With a 25R if you want to be within 20A then stick to 128W or lower. This doesn't include losses at the board from conversion so you may want to aim lower, say 115W or so. You can also charge your batteries sooner, before they get as low, and thus draw less amps. However you'd be charging them quite often, as you'd need to maintain about 3.8V per cell to hit 20A at 150W.
Saying that, the 25R can handle some Hugh amp pulses, 45A for 5 seconds and 30A for 6 seconds, so you're not doing anything dangerous in my opinion.
In short, depends on the max wattage you will Vape at. Use the formula of wattage ÷ 6.4 (cutoff voktage) to determine your amp draw.
With a 25R if you want to be within 20A then stick to 128W or lower. This doesn't include losses at the board from conversion so you may want to aim lower, say 115W or so. You can also charge your batteries sooner, before they get as low, and thus draw less amps. However you'd be charging them quite often, as you'd need to maintain about 3.8V per cell to hit 20A at 150W.
Saying that, the 25R can handle some Hugh amp pulses, 45A for 5 seconds and 30A for 6 seconds, so you're not doing anything dangerous in my opinion.
In short, depends on the max wattage you will Vape at. Use the formula of wattage ÷ 6.4 (cutoff voktage) to determine your amp draw.
25r's are some of the best batteries you can buy. You will be fine.
If you do consider to get VCT4, consider VCT5. They are back on the market. However, get them from a reputable vendor, e.g. http://liionwholesale.com/collections/batteries/Sony or others.
They are back, two or three months now.
I have yet to see any proof that Sony is still making any 18650's. I would at least like to see a box of Sony batteries with their logo on it like these LG & Samsung boxes of batteries. Not saying 25r's have never been faked, but the only Samsung batteries I've ever heard of being faked were cell phone batteries. Authentic 25r's are so inexpensive anyway.
We can prove it to ourselves with very demanding battery tests and are trying to work up a good way to write up the tests to explain them in a big blog post and show the results. But outside of that I'm not sure how you would show the proof. Sony doesn't write the model number on the outside of their packages. Here's a pic of the box, see attached.
And by the way, Samsungs have definitely been faked as well. https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/houston-woman-sentenced-year-prison-selling-counterfeit-batteries
Attachments
To answer the original question, I'd go with VTC4's ideally. The VTC4's can handle higher current than the VTC5. You're just a little outside of the VTC5 and 25R continuous ratings if you're using it at full power. At the same time as NemesisVapor mentioned a 25R or VTC5 should work just fine since you're easily within the pulse ratings and so close on the continuous rating that even if you did get a shorted button or something it should be able to handle it continuous just fine.
If you bought them direct from Sony, you or someone would have an invoice or packing slip. But that box does look pretty convincing. Thanks for posting it.
Those counterfeit batteries were Samsung Galaxy cell phone batteries being sold on ebay.
Thanks for the update on the counterfeit batteries story, I thought someone had confirmed that they were 18650s but must have been mistaken. None of the news articles I had found specified what they were.
As for the Sony thing, it's complicated because Sony is very aggressive that these are not products to be sold to consumers because they don't want to deal with the potential liability concerns and will not allow sales to consumers from any of their direct customers. So generally the only way to get them is by having a battery pack manufacturer contact to buy them from. That's where our testing comes in though because of course that manufacturer could stick in fakes since there's no way to verify authenticity the normal ways.
If that is truly the case, it sure seems like the battery pack manufacturers don't care what Sony thinks since everybody and their brother sells them. Would be just as easy to print Sony's logo on a cardboard box as it is a battery. Other than the letter from Sony saying they discontinued all 18650's, I have seen no proof from anyone including battery pack manufacturers that they are back in production. Heck, I'd be willing to buy a new tool battery pack to tear apart just to see, except nobody seems to know what battery packs, if any, are being produced with Sony 18650's either.
Yes, pretty much everyone who own's a samsung cell phone is aware of the the fakes that were sold on ebay, and peddled on Amazon. My Brother worked for ICE, and told me about the fake battery problem also. I'm sure the reason the new Galaxy S6's have non-replaceable batteries like the iPhone is because of this. There were a lot of phones frying
Of course it would be easy to print Sony on a box which is why I haven't posted any pics of boxes but you specifically asked for it, so I figured I'd oblige.
As for "everyone and their brother" selling them, many are actually fake. As for the others, many are bought from wholesalers. We're a wholesaler and we sell them wholesale to many shops after they pass our testing. So you can buy them that way as well.
If you're referring to the raw quantities you have to understand that vaping is still a small market relative to the enormous lithium ion pack market. All it takes is a couple mid-sized manufacturers deciding to sell a small percentage of their stock and you have enough to supply every vape shop in north america.
What I can verify 100% is that the battery we sell meets all the specs in the Sony tech documents, even high discharge tests. That's really all that matters in the end.
Samsung, LG, Sanyo, NEC, Hitachi & Panasonic are also in the cutthroat battery pack business. Still trying to find a business article I read either in Bloomberg or Forbes talking about Sony Energy devices, and how they were losing 10's of millions of dollars quarterly and were looking to divest or shut down the battery operation. The Bloomberg article went into more depth, but here is a 2012 Reuters business article. This kind of corresponds with the letter Sony put out saying they were no longer manufacturing 18650's.
I don't think there is much of a demand for 18650's in the laptop business anymore either. Laptops and tablets are mostly using lipo's now as they are too thin to house an old style 18650 pack.
"Sony produced 74 million lithium-ion battery cells in July-September - almost 40 percent fewer than in the first quarter of 2008, when its output topped Samsung SDI Co Ltd's 110 million and LG Chem Ltd's 54 million, according to Techno System Research in Tokyo. Sony's market share is now 7 percent, dwarfed by Samsung SDI's 27 percent, Panasonic's 21 percent and LG Chem's 17 percent" I believe this statement was in 2012.
"The battery business is a prime example of the company's loss-making and unwanted assets. It doesn't make sense for them to keep it," said one of the banking sources"
I honestly don't believe Sony is producing 18650 batteries anymore. The world wide vaping industry is getting very large, and the hype and demand for these unicorns is such that counterfeiters will go to the end of the earth to keep these alive. That's all I'm going to say about it. People will believe what they want to believe, and buy what they want to buy.
I don't think there is much of a demand for 18650's in the laptop business anymore either. Laptops and tablets are mostly using lipo's now as they are too thin to house an old style 18650 pack.
"Sony produced 74 million lithium-ion battery cells in July-September - almost 40 percent fewer than in the first quarter of 2008, when its output topped Samsung SDI Co Ltd's 110 million and LG Chem Ltd's 54 million, according to Techno System Research in Tokyo. Sony's market share is now 7 percent, dwarfed by Samsung SDI's 27 percent, Panasonic's 21 percent and LG Chem's 17 percent" I believe this statement was in 2012.
"The battery business is a prime example of the company's loss-making and unwanted assets. It doesn't make sense for them to keep it," said one of the banking sources"
I honestly don't believe Sony is producing 18650 batteries anymore. The world wide vaping industry is getting very large, and the hype and demand for these unicorns is such that counterfeiters will go to the end of the earth to keep these alive. That's all I'm going to say about it. People will believe what they want to believe, and buy what they want to buy.
Good discussion. You have to understand the Japanese mindset though. Just because some analysts think that division should be sold doesn't mean they will actually do it, especially if no other company inside Japan wants it. Anyway if they had actually sold it or shut it down you would have seen an article about it.
Their website still shows 18650 batteries for "power tools" as one of their products which are the batteries we're talking about. Of course this is not proof, it could be out of date, but it's more evidence.
The biggest proof for me is that for example the VTC4 outshines everything running them at 30A. I can't imagine that some counterfeiter company would be able to make a battery that beats every other battery out there including Samsung SDI and the ridiculous amount of money they're pouring into R&D.
Their website still shows 18650 batteries for "power tools" as one of their products which are the batteries we're talking about. Of course this is not proof, it could be out of date, but it's more evidence.
The biggest proof for me is that for example the VTC4 outshines everything running them at 30A. I can't imagine that some counterfeiter company would be able to make a battery that beats every other battery out there including Samsung SDI and the ridiculous amount of money they're pouring into R&D.
I'm fully aware of the Japanese mindset. Very proud People. Have gotten to know many of them through x-pat employees at Dow Chemical. They don't take shuttering manufacturing facilities lightly.
They did shut down the Tochigi plant where the power tool packs (18650) were made (see "made in Tochigi" part of article). However they do mention consolidation, but don't mention if these particular (power tool) batteries are going to be produced again. In the huge realm of liion batteries, the cylindrical 18650 form factor is probably not first on their list.
Whatever the case, the company can not continue to bleed 10's of millions of dollars and expect to stay alive. Their stock is already reduced to junk status. The consolidation is obliviously a reaction to this.
They did shut down the Tochigi plant where the power tool packs (18650) were made (see "made in Tochigi" part of article). However they do mention consolidation, but don't mention if these particular (power tool) batteries are going to be produced again. In the huge realm of liion batteries, the cylindrical 18650 form factor is probably not first on their list.
Whatever the case, the company can not continue to bleed 10's of millions of dollars and expect to stay alive. Their stock is already reduced to junk status. The consolidation is obliviously a reaction to this.
Hey to each his or her own , but all I see is a cardboard box . No invoice or shipping slip or any result of a test . If I want to prove a point I would have the invoice in hand or the results of a test here and now . But all I see is a cardboard box , and another vendor . The only reason I post anything here is because anyone would think , a box is proof of anything ........ Really .? I would like to think before a vendor sold anything , they would have the proof on hand . Do you also sell unicorns and rainbows !
I wasn't giving you comprehensive proof. Robert B explicitly said he wanted to see a box. I could provide that quickly so I did. I didn't say you should believe it based on a box, in fact if you read my posts I explicitly said it really means almost nothing. It's just one small piece of evidence. Same thing with an invoice - that would be even more easily faked. The only thing that's real is test results. I'll be publishing test results soon but I'm not sure if I'll finish before going on vacation so if that happens it'll be a couple weeks. Feel free not to order any in the meantime.
And no I work for a battery company so we don't sell unicorns. Rainbows though I think I could special order...