SOMETHING WE ALL SHOULD READ

[Saddletramp1200]

I believe about 60% of what I see, & almost nothing I read on the Internet. As being in a "Herd" the closest I get is Riding with friends. Years ago I read a study claiming sex causes cancer. I then knew what I was going to die from.

 

[Whiskey]

Lulzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Zamazam]

Your an Attorney? Well I will try to sit up straight when I post. I am amazed by the cheap shots from other industry people for their efforts to keep people smoking. Low blows with trumped up study's, and other things that are downright lies. Parents are the responsible party in knowing what their children are involved it. Nothing in this world is safe. Vaping is an ADULT hobby. Not amassed for the enjoyment of Children. Anything is better than smoking.

No, Whiskey posted a letter from an attorney.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

No, Whiskey posted a letter from an attorney.

Cool, I wasn't going to sit up straight anyway.

 

[Whiskey]

I was going to say "at ease soldier"

 

[Saddletramp1200]

Happy 4th Everyone! Were rockin' in Houston. Know why sharks don't attack Lawyers? Professional Courtesy.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

If You guys are having 1/2 the fun I am, You might wind up in jail.

 

[Zamazam]

Why are lawyers buried 12 feet deep when they die instead of the normal six feet? Because deep down they are really good people.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

Biker died & was facing judgment. You have two choices. Jump into this pool of sharks, or spend eternity with these Lawyers. I'll take the sharks, he exclaimed! Them Lawyers are Mean Fuckers!

 

[skoony]

If I'm the consumer that bought your juice, we'll call it Dipsy Doozle Delight, and you told me it was diketone free... then you are absolutely at fault if it has diketones in it. I assume you are not putting a complete list of flavorings on your bottles because the recipe is your secret, so yes you lied to me the consumer if it does indeed have diketones in the flavorings. This is very simple. If that flavoring manufacturer lied to you about what is in their flavorings then you have an issue with them, but I would not have an issue with them because I have no idea what flavors are in Dipsy Doozle Delight. How could I have an issue with a manufacturer I'm not even aware of and that you haven't revealed. The flavor manufacturer is your problem and you are my problem.

Sorry, you don't get a free pass on this one by claiming ignorance. You are a juice manufacturer and have to accept the responsibility of making sure what you are selling me matches what you said you were selling me.

You might consider listing all the ingredients of the recipe on the bottle of Dipsy Doozle Delight if you don't want to assume the responsibility of believing the flavor manufacturers. At least that way I could do my due diligence if I choose to and you could say you have been forthcoming about what was in the juice from the beginning. If you are like most juice manufacturers though, you will not want to give out your recipe so it is incumbent upon you to make sure you are knowledgeable about what you are selling and truthful to your customers about the juice.

Or even better yet, just put a disclaimer on each bottle of juice you sell saying "May contain ingredients with diketones" if you don't want to even deal with what you are selling and then you can say you were truthful about the product you sell with no further liability or effort on your part.

it is not lying in any way shape or form if it is common practice in the industry.

 

[outwest]

it is not lying in any way shape or form if it is common practice in the industry.

So, if it's common to sell 12K or 13K gold as 14K, 70% or 80% silver as 92.5% silver, fake gemstones as real (all of which happens a lot in jewelry industry) it's not lying?

And with eliquid we're talking about your health, not your pocketbook

Sent from my Z970

 

[Barbara E.]

it is not lying in any way shape or form if it is common practice in the industry.

It's not lying if the person saying it honestly believes it to be true. They might be 'wrong' but they're not 'lying'.

That's the situation I think most juice makers have found themselves in. And I believe most flavor manufacturers have found themselves in the same situation. By law, they have to test their product 'x' levels of 'y'. The test is negative so, legally, they can say the flavor contains no 'y'.

But the test isn't designed and won't pick up levels at 1/10th 'x' or 1/100th 'x' or 1/100,000,000th 'x'. The flavor manufacturer has no idea that any 'y' is present at all. All they know is that their test said negative.

So when they tell the eliquid manufacturer that their flavors contain no 'y', they are legally correct. If the flavor does indeed contain 'y' at 1/10th 'x', they are factually wrong but still legally right. But they are not 'lying' because - since they don't test to that level of precision, they honestly don't know 'y' is present.

So now the eliquid manufacturer believed what the flavor manufacturer said (no 'y' in flavor). They use that flavor to make eliquid and they say their eliquid has no 'y'. But now someone tests their eliquid with a test that can measure to a higher level of precision and they find that - guess what? - it does contain 'y'. Whose fault is it?

As an eliquid manufacturer who is trying to 'do things right', I'm a bit peeved at people who say things like I don't 'get a pass' by 'claiming ignorance'. I'm not saying that there aren't eliquid manufacturers who are deliberately lying but I suspect most of them are operating out of ignorance rather than malice.

 

[Mattp169]

It's not lying if the person saying it honestly believes it to be true. They might be 'wrong' but they're not 'lying'.

That's the situation I think most juice makers have found themselves in. And I believe most flavor manufacturers have found themselves in the same situation. By law, they have to test their product 'x' levels of 'y'. The test is negative so, legally, they can say the flavor contains no 'y'.

But the test isn't designed and won't pick up levels at 1/10th 'x' or 1/100th 'x' or 1/100,000,000th 'x'. The flavor manufacturer has no idea that any 'y' is present at all. All they know is that their test said negative.

So when they tell the eliquid manufacturer that their flavors contain no 'y', they are legally correct. If the flavor does indeed contain 'y' at 1/10th 'x', they are factually wrong but still legally right. But they are not 'lying' because - since they don't test to that level of precision, they honestly don't know 'y' is present.

So now the eliquid manufacturer believed what the flavor manufacturer said (no 'y' in flavor). They use that flavor to make eliquid and they say their eliquid has no 'y'. But now someone tests their eliquid with a test that can measure to a higher level of precision and they find that - guess what? - it does contain 'y'. Whose fault is it?

As an eliquid manufacturer who is trying to 'do things right', I'm a bit peeved at people who say things like I don't 'get a pass' by 'claiming ignorance'. I'm not saying that there aren't eliquid manufacturers who are deliberately lying but I suspect most of them are operating out of ignorance rather than malice.

Here Here!!!!

This has been my issue. Everyone ASSUMED IMMEDIATELY 5P was deliberately lying. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't.

You see the test results and decide you don't want to buy 5P any more, thats your choice, but to immediately assume they were up to no good is what boggles me.

How many DIYers do you think make juice with AP or DA or Both and think it contains none. My guess is alot. We are all still learning and this whole thing is still evolving. Mistakes will be made.

I am the type of person who gives most people the benefit of the doubt to start with. And I think thats all the original OP is asking for in these situations, the benefit of the doubt and stop fueling the opposition.

 

[MadMeathead]

The tests for 5P, as released BY 5P, on their blog are dated 2014. Any claims of no DA or AP made since 5P received those tests would in fact qualify as deceitful.


Pulled directly from my arse using Tapatalk. That's right I post from the Throne Room.

 

[Drone]

it is not lying in any way shape or form if it is common practice in the industry.

When is lying not lying? When @skoony says it's not...lol Sorry bro, you'll need Chuck Norris on your side to make that one stick.

 

[Saddletramp1200]

Rats ass, South Cal, I love it so. TV people are the norm here. Bakersfield. Again. Don't be related to No Body.

 

[Barbara E.]

The tests for 5P, as released BY 5P, on their blog are dated 2014. Any claims of no DA or AP made since 5P received those tests would in fact qualify as deceitful. <snip>

This is absolutely true. In this case, where they knew their liquids contained DA/AP, they would have been deliberately lying to claim otherwise.

But that does not mean all eliquid manufacturers are doing the same thing.

 

[RobbieR]

The fact that they have KNOWN about it since 2014 and have done nothing about is what I have a problem with.

A smaller Canadian Juice maker just tested all of their juices for ECTA approval and some of their popular flavors failed. They did not have crazy high numbers like Five Pawns, but they where over the ECTA's acceptable range. They immediately stopped selling all of the flavors that failed and warned their customers about it on their Facebook Page. I will happily buy from them in the future because they where honest and open about it.

Five Pawns sat on their test results for a year and did nothing about it until someone else discovered it.

 

[skoony]

So, if it's common to sell 12K or 13K gold as 14K, 70% or 80% silver as 92.5% silver, fake gemstones as real (all of which happens a lot in jewelry industry) it's not lying?

And with eliquid we're talking about your health, not your pocketbook

Sent from my Z970

who's health? whom has been harmed?

 

[skoony]

When is lying not lying? When @skoony says it's not...lol Sorry bro, you'll need Chuck Norris on your side to make that one stick.

first of all who lied? i want names,dates,times and places.
who did the lying,name please.who was lied to,name please.

 

[outwest]

who's health? whom has been harmed?

Potentially everyone that used 5 pawns products. Damage from diacetyl is permanent, from my understanding.

 

[skoony]

Potentially everyone that used 5 pawns products. Damage from diacetyl is permanent, from my understanding.

apparently to a statistically meaningless amount of people in very distinct sub groups in the
food processing industry diacetyl was damaging. i say was because since the initial incidents
only two have appeared in recent times in a coffee roasting plant in Texas.

 

[VinceV1]

Potentially everyone that used 5 pawns products. Damage from diacetyl is permanent, from my understanding.

This is what I undertand as well.