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The Science of Subbing

jambi

jambi

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Not sure how to start with this...

Example...4 different Bavarian Creams from 3 different manufacturers. TFA original, TFA DX, CAP, FW. They're all popular...a ton of recipes call for this flavor, so what do you do? Keep them all in inventory? Pick a favorite and sub it wherever BC is called for in a recipe, regardless of what brand the chef used? And if you sub, do you alter the %? If so, why? Do you think it makes a difference in the final mix if you sub FW for TFA?

For BC, I have all of them. I made 4 Unicorn Milk clones with 4 different BCs, and learned 2 things... 1. I don't like TFA DX BC and 2. The other 3 tasted almost exactly the same, with the FW just barely edging the other two out, due to...IDK. Slightly more creamy maybe. Regardless, it was a very very minute difference, but there you have it. So now I sub FW BC for all recipes that call for BC. I do it for pure practicality...can't have 4 different BCs cluttering up my drawers.

But BC is pretty basic. Now we've got strawberry. Every vendor has at least one, many have 2 or more. A single vendor has 3 damned strawberries; Ripe, Organic, and just strawberry. Really? I have to keep a shelf full of strawberries just so I can exactly match someone's recipe? There Has To Be Another Way.

So how do you good folks handle this with a really common flavor like Strawberry? Me, I'd rather spend my limited funds on new, different flavors than on a collection of 10 strawberries.

Am I missing out? I mean, is there enough of a difference between ripe strawberry and CAP sweet strawberry that it's going to adversely affect my mix. Maybe my tastebuds are shot...I've tried CAP sweet, TFA ripe and x, and FW and noticed very little difference. I went with TFA Ripe because...I don't know, just felt right.

The shitty thing is that my favorite strawberry is actually INW Shisha. Problem is it's a bitch to sub it for CAP/TFA/FW because it's way more concentrated, and I have a lot of recipes that call for the weaker brands

How do you folks handle substitutions? In a case like INW vs. TFA, how do you work out a change in percentage. Is there some general rule of thumb, ie; 10% TFA = 3% INW. That's going to depend on the specific flavors being subbed, right? Which means I've got to have those flavors and experiment with them, which defeats the purpose of subbing. What is the Science?
 
Heabob

Heabob

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jambi said:
So how do you good folks handle this with a really common flavor like Strawberry? Me, I'd rather spend my limited funds on new, different flavors than on a collection of 10 strawberries.
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I just use INW Shisha Strawberry in everything now, 2-3% for 2-3 flavor recipes.
If you start getting up higher with many other flavors, or using higher amounts of the others, you need to raise it more.
Or you need to make other adjustments to the recipe, experimentation is key.

Bavarian Cream is a rather useless flavor for me, cause I like TFA Dairy Milk & HS Cream much better.
(Try subbing the Bavarian in your Unicorn Milk with TFA Dairy Milk sometime)

DIYFS French Vanilla & INW Shisha Vanilla are the best IMO, and I could most likely throw all the rest out.

Some hate FA Condensed Milk but it comes in handy sometimes.
Pick the one(s) you like best, or pick a commonly used combo like CAP Sweet SB & TFA SB Ripe.
 
jambi

jambi

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Heabob said:
Pick the one(s) you like best, or pick a commonly used combo like CAP Sweet SB & TFA SB Ripe.
Click to expand...

Mixing extracts, that's a great idea. Gonna try it with the too many blueberries I have.
 
Heabob

Heabob

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jambi said:
Mixing extracts, that's a great idea. Gonna try it with the too many blueberries I have.
Click to expand...

Some prefer one particular Blueberry over another.
My favorite is TFA Blueberry Wild, think its a little sweeter.
Some like the taste of FW Blueberry better.
CAP is OK but its a bit of a darker/stronger tasting version.
Don't bother with Hangsen as its not so good IMO.
FA Bilberry is like perfume to me, but some seem to like it just fine.

Best Blackberry is VZ-SC, but the FE brand from ECX is damn close, if not identical, 2% usually.
And you can even add a little bit to the Blueberry(s).
 
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lirruping

lirruping

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Heabob said:
Some hate FA Condensed Milk but it comes in handy sometimes.
Click to expand...
What's the highest percentage you've had success with fa condensed at? Also, what percentage would you say you generally use it at? I have some but have only used it at one drop per 15ml, one time (so far) because of all the comments I read about how intense, and to some, weird it can be. In my recipe, it didn't stand out at all--I couldn't taste it.
 
Heabob

Heabob

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lirruping said:
What's the highest percentage you've had success with fa condensed at? Also, what percentage would you say you generally use it at? I have some but have only used it at one drop per 15ml, one time (so far) because of all the comments I read about how intense, and to some, weird it can be. In my recipe, it didn't stand out at all--I couldn't taste it.
Click to expand...

I've used the FA Condensed Milk only at 0.5%, but it's added in with 2% TFA Dairy Milk & other Vanillas/VBIC, (or Yogurt mixes).
 
lirruping

lirruping

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jambi said:
is there enough of a difference between ripe strawberry and CAP sweet strawberry that it's going to adversely affect my mix. Maybe my tastebuds are shot...I've tried CAP sweet, TFA ripe and x, and FW and noticed very little difference. I went with TFA Ripe because...I don't know, just felt right.
Click to expand...

You have a lot of good questions in your post. I'll just try to address this one, since I'm familiar with all three and tfa Strawberry. I would say there's a very definite difference (to my buds) between tfa Strawberry, tfa Strawberry ripe, and --even more different-- Cap Sweet Strawberry.

Both tfa Strawbs ( ripe and regular) are fairly mild and easily overpowered by other flavors in a mix. Having said so, ripe on its own has more of a "green" flavor to me... I know it doesn't make much sense given the name, but maybe it's a "leaf" impression I'm getting. They are both useful, though and I like having them both in my arsenal. Cap Sweet Strawb is distinctly different and more artificial tasting. I say that with no bias against it--just by way of knowing it's better for different types of recipes. You know, it all depends on what you're going for.

I would be lost without FA Strawberry. It is not a strong flavor as flavors in general go--and certainly not as FA flavors tend to go. But it's a lovely--if relatively subtle--realistic strawberry taste. There is a little bit of that "green" flavor in there, but it doesn't stick out for me as much as with tfa ripe.

Strawberry is one of the few flavors I feel like it's important to have in multiple manifestations! I like having the five or six I have and I plan soon to get INW Strawberry Shisha and INW Strawberry to add to the collection.
 
lirruping

lirruping

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Also, re fa strawb--there are cool things you can do to pump up the strawberry flavor in it, to make it more apparent. Check out HIC's uses of it in the recipes section for some examples of this. HIC's Creamy Strawberry Malt (possibly my fave HIC mix) comes to mind as an excellent example of this.
 
Heabob

Heabob

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lirruping said:
Another reason for me to BOLD tfa dairy milk in my to-get list!
Click to expand...

FW Milk is another one that's rarely mentioned but its more Milk and less sweet than TFA Dairy Milk, which I would have named "Dairy Cream" instead.
I tend to use Dairy Milk more but sometimes use both together.
 
C

Chrispdx

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Substituting is an art form. It's not exact science. It takes practice, sweat, tears and reading.

It is true. An arsenal of strawberry allows you to create a variance of strawberry tidbits. There is the ripe strawberry, sweet, natural, candied, green, dense, and so on. From there it's reading the recipie and going from there.

The key is getting to know your flavors and doing your best when you don't have everything to adapt to make something great.

As for parting comments. Yes. Some are close enough between manufactures (vbic cap vs tfa. Sorta). But it is true, to get the best vape from the recipie you sometimes need all the ingredients...to get the best final result. That means having 2 different marshmallows, 6 different orange flavors (for me), two or three blueberries, two kiwi, and so on...especially if you want that complete vape....

Like try kiwi FA and kiwi double tfa. (I think it's a double). But those two together or so yummy. But kiwi FA all on its own is a rock star.
 
EarnestAccord

EarnestAccord

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Heabob said:
Some hate FA Condensed Milk but it comes in handy sometimes.
Pick the one(s) you like best, or pick a commonly used combo like CAP Sweet SB & TFA SB Ripe.
Click to expand...
What do you use your FA Condensed Milk for? I've mainly been using it in my bakery items at .12-.25%. Very concentrated flavor!
 
Heabob

Heabob

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EarnestAccord said:
What do you use your FA Condensed Milk for? I've mainly been using it in my bakery items at .12-.25%. Very concentrated flavor!
Click to expand...

It adds just a touch more Milk flavor when using with other Milk/Cream types.
And it helps add something to Yogurts that seems to be missing, at least the Yogurts I've tried.
But I haven't tried FA Yogurt yet.
 
Daintanee

Daintanee

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Heabob said:
Lol, BTW it might have been @Teresa P who said the regular INW Strawberry was bad.
Think we were discussing it in the INW Must Haves thread.
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I have a small amount of it, the regular inw strawberry, I'll mix some up to taste and let you know my thoughts. I am in love with the Inw Raspberry.
 
Teresa P

Teresa P

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Heabob said:
Lol, BTW it might have been @Teresa P who said the regular INW Strawberry was bad.
Think we were discussing it in the INW Must Haves thread.
Click to expand...
Nope, not me, I love their strawberry. I like the shisha better, but their regular one is very good to me. ;)
 
RonJS

RonJS

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Heabob said:
Lol, my memory banks at their finest...
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I've not tried it, but I can't recall having read a positive thing regarding the INW Wild Strawberry. :gaah:
I've used the INW Strawberry when I desire a more baked strawberry flavor..

Ron
----
"With the shape I'm in you could donate my body to science fiction."-Thornton Melon
 
Heabob

Heabob

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RonJS said:
I've not tried it, but I can't recall having read a positive thing regarding the INW Wild Strawberry.
Click to expand...

Thinking that was maybe the one that a couple people didn't like, now that you mentioned it:confused:.

I've got the Strawberry Kiss but haven't tried it yet, drip taste is way stronger Yikes.
Seems to have a mint background or something, can't quite put my finger on it yet, but it's different than the Shisha for sure.
 
lirruping

lirruping

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where is this inw must haves thread? can somebody send a dumbass a link?

Heabob said:
Thinking that was maybe the one that a couple people didn't like, now that you mentioned it.
Click to expand...
And the award for understatement of the year re inw wild strawberry goes to.... Heabob! :sneaka:Seriously, there are no words to describe how gross that flavor is. I get shuddery just thinking about it.
 
jambi

jambi

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lirruping said:
where is this inw must haves thread? can somebody send a dumbass a link?


And the award for understatement of the year re inw wild strawberry goes to.... Heabob! :sneaka:Seriously, there are no words to describe how gross that flavor is. I get shuddery just thinking about it.
Click to expand...
I haven't tried it in mixes yet. I did test it single at 2% and didn't find it awful, (based on my lack of notes). It certainly smells fine. I'll try it again. What is it about it that you find gross?
 
lirruping

lirruping

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jambi said:
I haven't tried it in mixes yet. I did test it single at 2% and didn't find it awful, (based on my lack of notes). It certainly smells fine. I'll try it again. What is it about it that you find gross?
Click to expand...

When I first smelled it, I too thought it seemed nice, maybe a little peculiar, but I figured that was just the overwhelming flavor of the straight concentrate. You know sometimes perfectly great flavors smell weird in-bottle. But then I added it at around 3% to a mix with another strawberry, messing around trying to make a strawberry shortcake and when I tried to vape it (at 3% in a mix of around 12-14% total flavor, if I recall) it tasted just like shampoo. So I tried a few more times with lesser amounts. Initially I thought it was the cap cake batter in there (which I found out at the same time that I also dislike) that may have wrecked that particular juice. I have tried it as low as a single drop per 30ml and still felt I was able to taste it and that it ruined the experience of the vape. There's always the possibility I was olfactorily traumatized from that first time at 3% with cap cake batter and that I'll never be able to appreciate it for that reason alone.

Really, don't let my abhorrence of the flavor make you prejudiced. I've read reports of people liking it fine, normally at much lower % - maybe 0.5 - 2% tops. Just go easy, my friend!
 
Elites

Elites

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I agree with @lirruping I didn't have nice experience with INW Wild strawberry, Even after diluting to 10% formula (1ml Wild Strawbery + 9 ml PG) then used 1% and just taste :eek:.

I need to test as @Jimi D suggested low 0.75. Who knows :rolleyes:
 
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