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The Social Dilemma (documentary)

KingPin!

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Watched this documentary on Netflix and it struck a cord with me more info here or just Check it on Netflix https://www.thesocialdilemma.com/the-film/

so onto my post about the documentary (buckle up, top up the vape)

Profitability is the business model...social media depends on user engagement, retention and growth. If these factors are negatively impacted then a company’s value slides, the very opposite of what any social media company wants.

Whilst businesses in the private sector start out with this at the back of their minds (after all making money is what it’s all about at the end of the day) is it true to say these platforms started out with that as their primary mission statement...or was is something more innocent like “We want to positively connect people”, perhaps what’s lost along the way is that original vision when growth and investor pressure mounts...as they say in the documentary “if you don’t pay for the product, you are the product”

It was argued that the original designers and engineers of these platforms didn’t set out with a negative goal in mind; take the co-designer of the Facebook like button in the documentary:he now recognised its effects on instant gratification, sowing importance into how you are perceived by strangers, and it’s negative effects especially on the early to mid teens who didn’t know a time before social media, how it empowers your own biases and world views by giving you your own feed separate to everyone else...none of this was on his original radar, rather it was meant as just a positive sharing idea. It goes to show you what you design and how something is used take on a “life of its own” after the fact.

This is a really interesting topic for ethics in terms of what users do with the function, how Artificial Intelligence (A.I) learns to use it as a tool or nefarious actors using it to exploit a system for gain (political and public thinking) when designing applications, how you envision something to be used and what actually happens are often very different things.

The point here is how this ties into exploiting the “human condition” the general need to connect with other people, we are after social creatures for the most part, I also think it’s fair to say “most” people care at some level there are others out there who think like they do, it’s why we spend so much trying to argue our points across right?
We also know these things exists “it’s free so expect ads, getting sucked into social media rabbit holes, arguments with strangers over stupid things, ads popping up when you type or verbally speak moments later, the behaviours such as watching recommenced videos, picking up your phone when you get a notification, constantly refreshing the feed, looking for confirmations of your own beliefs...ultimately the collection of your data drives all of this, you are teaching the very thing you hate how to manipulate you with every click.

A.I is very good at learning how to exploit these human weaknesses and biases, it’s not out get you rather it’s been instructed by humans to find the most efficient way of keeping you “hooked” and this is at the centre of the documentary’s message, with the dilemma being “how do we address this in a business sustainable and ethical way“ because it’s effects are shifting from the original paradigm “we want to positively connect people”

What the documentary does lack, as is the case with many of these thought provoking key note speeches or documentaries” is how to address the problem or rather possible solutions....ok we now know the problem, we want to discuss but what’s next?

Zuckerbergs idea for Facebook was to introduce more A.I to snuff out the fake news the other A.I is pushing...but how does it learn what’s fake and what isn’t...also won’t there just be another A.I out there looking to exploit and get around the other one...we just end up with a de-facto A.I war of mans making trying to get your attention fixed and take action...and that to me is dangerous.

The people saying we can’t change so why care? Well thats certainly an option; see where the experiment takes us, although personally I don’t accept that...the first step to recovery is accepting there’s a problem.

The simplistic reactionary view of just get rid of it...that might be an option for you but it’s here to stay globally, if still affects you...because you are connected to people... your kids, friends, colleagues use it...and let’s not forget it can be a force for good as well.

it’s not even been lost on me, how do I know the documentary in itself is not designed to manipulate my thinking...clearly it has...deep stuff right

well anyway folks thought I’d open up the floor here, perhaps have a watch then let’s discuss your thoughts on it all...also what could be done to tackle this issue (other than trying to fool ourselves into thinking we can unplug and trick the system to not follow us)
 
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KingPin!

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I got plans to watch it tonight with the wife. She's super social. I'm just here and vape tool picture show. Lol

Sent from a pile of wood chips
When you do keep in the back of you mind at how that political thread developed as an echo chamber on VU mate, the affects of these other platforms slipped out over to VU, which in itself is a social platform I know ?

My intention is not to spark up a political debate here but that particular process of what was happening as a thing and how behaviours were in that area...getting chased out if you held differing views...because clearly all this stuff was telling you you were right and not them pack mentality ...documentary covers all that too.

this feeds into the other thread “vent” on the creation of private groups surrounding yourself with like minded people and the like
 

hellcatrydr

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Is this the same Netflix who is making soft-core kiddie porn?

cutiesmovie.jpg
 

The Cromwell

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As a lifelong social anxiety disorder afflicted human/alien hybrid, social media in not an issue with me.
Here at VU is pretty much my extent.
Even watch very little TV and only certain shows..
Read most all the news so that I am not visually influenced by the commontaters and such.
"news' is 90% commentary now. And so much slant one way or the other.

Tried reality shows early on and decided NOPE for me.
Those who want to be a Twit or be Facedbook are welcome but not for me.

I resist programming always have, why most consider me a bit strange I suppose, but I detest the new normal.
I treat those around me with respect until they show they do not deserve it.
I make no worries at all about trying to fit in.
I fit me just fine.

I make my own decisions based on my filtering of the 'news' and follow my own nose not the misleading of any party or religion.

Being truly independent is pretty scary to most it seems....

Even in my vaping I go for what suits me not what someone else promotes.
I do chuckle at vaping elitists, but elitists exist in everything, from socks to cars...
But I think people should be able to do as they desire as long as it does not negatively impact me or innocents.

My friends are based on them not their status or such.
 
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MrMeowgi

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Porn actresses? I thought we were not getting into politics?
could cause a stormy reaction?
It's a movie about young kids dancing. One of my daughters watched it and said this scene isn't even in the movie. She did say some of it is was inappropriate for such young kids.

Sent from a pile of wood chips
 

The Cromwell

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It's a movie about young kids dancing. One of my daughters watched it and said this scene isn't even in the movie. She did say some of it is was inappropriate for such young kids.

Sent from a pile of wood chips
Yeah I know the story about it and so should the one who posted it in their effort to diss a source they did not like something from.

there was another movie quite a while back similar in that respect. Little miss something or I forget the title...
 

hellcatrydr

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Porn actresses? I thought we were not getting into politics?
could cause a stormy reaction?

Netflix is the pedophilia network. They're sexualizing 10 year old girls.
They're trying to normalize child rape by creating content that specifically appeals to pedos.

This is a HUMAN issue, not a political one.
Keep Hollywood's hands OFF the children.

....annd know who you're listening to. These people are sick.
.
 

KingPin!

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Is this the same Netflix who is making soft-core kiddie porn?

cutiesmovie.jpg

dunno you tell me


So is this your way of saying I won’t watch the documentary because it’s a Netflix one? is the purpose of that post to discredit the documentary out of hand before even watching it?

even if you don’t watch it no probs, I outlined the topic in the OP, wanted to discuss that really ?
 
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hellcatrydr

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So is this your way of saying I won’t watch the documentary because it’s a Netflix one?

Not really... If company X knowingly employs or promotes these (imo) sickos, then that company needs to be exposed so people can decide for themselves whether they want to support the Netflix/Hollywood agenda and by extension, the pedophile community.

It's my way of saying that ANYthing on Netflix should be watched through that lens of the lifelong psychological pain that comes with being raped by adults as an 11 year old.
.
 

MrMeowgi

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Make like a baby and head out. Lol

Sent from a pile of wood chips
 

KingPin!

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Not really... If company X knowingly employs or promotes these (imo) sickos, then that company needs to be exposed so people can decide for themselves whether they want to support the Netflix/Hollywood agenda and by extension, the pedophile community.

It's my way of saying that ANYthing on Netflix should be watched through that lens of the lifelong psychological pain that comes with being raped by adults as an 11 year old.
.

Fair enough..... “knowingly” employing pedos would have to be proven though then i’d stand by that! All I can say is the shows I have watched on the platform that sort of thing with kids isn’t in the agenda at least I don’t recall at a conscious level.

still interesting not one single comment so far about the OP lol

kind of expected as much anyway what have we got left 20 active members?

10 stuck to mixing
9 are arguing in venting
And a Partridge in a pear tree

these other social media giants have disrupted the traditional forum based platforms there is no doubt
 
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DaBunny

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Fair enough..... “knowingly” employing pedos would have to be proven though then i’d stand by that! All I can say is the shows I have watched on the platform that sort of thing with kids isn’t in the agenda at least I don’t recall at a conscious level.

still interesting not one single comment so far about the OP lol

kind of expected as much anyway what have we got left 20 active members?

10 stuck to mixing
9 are arguing in venting
And a Partridge in a pear tree

these other social media giants have disrupted the traditional forum based platforms there is no doubt
DON'T BE PICKING ON DA PEAR TREES!
der in season now. so keep da damn BIRD out of da Tree will ya.

am gonna watch netflix da social media dilemma.
THANKS looks interisting..

thanks for the suggestion..


{Just don't want my canned pears go to da birds ya know}
 

The Cromwell

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On the film/documentary.

First notice is the short attention span feel of the film which the net has instilled in people. Ironic? Naah the new normal which has been induced by the net.
Is this new normal better? Nope.

The programming aspect of people/viewers/participants in social media is nothing new. governments and religions have been doing this throughout human history. Many/most are eager to be programmed/told what to do. It is much easier than being independent and gives many the feeling of being included.
Tech has just made it more seductive and effective.
Kind of the beginning of the zombie apocalypse?

Will the USA survive?
Not in it's current form and not for the betterment of it's citizens.
The net is the tool of industry, politics, scams and government to control their citizens.
The net CAN be used as a productive tool but few have the intelligence/resolve to recognize the seductive/programming side of it and resist that side.

Anyone thinks that what they do on the net is private in any way are somewhat delusional.
All your activities are noted and used to market items/pages with ad revenue, etc.
Users are all lab rats for marketing enhancements.

I worked in bleeding edge tech for 15 years.

And yes the US government does have several tie in's to the backbone net to monitor activity.
It was originally known as carnivore but was exposed and the name changed but not the program.
Data Centers with a locked off section that only people with certain ID's from a government agency were allowed access to...

Sadly those of us who have a decent degree of understanding about the net using users against their own best interests are unfortunately in the minority.

Cellphone and social media addiction is a very real thing....
And not a good thing for our future.

Heck even death by selfie has become a thing...
 
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KingPin!

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Interesting parallels with history there and agree about the re-programming aspect, having said that as a tool tech can be controlled via the hands of a small select few rather than armies and deep structured belief systems ...also the speed at which it can react and adapt is frightening in comparison.

you don’t need to raise armies anymore just encourage so much anger and distrust populations do it all themselves...civil unrest it seems has become much easier to start...Whilst this is nothing new (again a repeat of history) the bit that is troubling is the employment of AI whith potential bias creep is well documented...selecting people for jobs, controlling stock markets, controlling what people think, the list goes on....fuck we are actually in the matrix!

which pill was it again?
 

JuicyLucy

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still interesting not one single comment so far about the OP lol

Here you go KP - I gave it a shot last night, got maybe half way through

It really didn't tell me anything I didn't already know about the evils of modern tech and AI and how it exploits human frailties

Didn't watch it right away when it came out because it looked like the kind of content that would just get me pissed off - and I was right, that is what happened

Great docu for anyone that is unaware of how social media works

Also, Cromwell hit the nail on the head
 

The Cromwell

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Interesting parallels with history there and agree about the re-programming aspect, having said that as a tool tech can be controlled via the hands of a small select few rather than armies and deep structured belief systems ...also the speed at which it can react and adapt is frightening in comparison.

you don’t need to raise armies anymore just encourage so much anger and distrust populations do it all themselves...civil unrest it seems has become much easier to start...Whilst this is nothing new (again a repeat of history) the bit that is troubling is the employment of AI whith potential bias creep is well documented...selecting people for jobs, controlling stock markets, controlling what people think, the list goes on....fuck we are actually in the matrix!

which pill was it again?
Worse than the matrix. Eat the reality pill and nothing changes.
 

KingPin!

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Think the Corona virus has wreaked havoc on US society?
It would pale in comparison to the suffering if cellphones all just stopped working.

I reckon you’d see all these pale human like creatures working out how to look up again haha

serious though I recognise I’m addicted to my phone, I show some the traits outlined in the show pointless scrolling and rabbit hole searching - I think it’ll be harder than cigarettes to kick as well which is scary :(
 

The Cromwell

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Been grumping and bitching for a few days over a related thing...

My old flip phone will stop working at the end of this month due to network upgrades...
Had this phone for around 12 year or more and well satisfied with it...
Got an email and texts for a FREE upgrade to a new flip phone.
wife did the up grade for me. Got the new phone and in the box was a bill for $149...
Called em up and raised hell think I got it straightened out...
Told em if not I was going with another carrier.
Do not like the new flip phone as much, larger and does not appear to be as durable...
Been punching in my calling list...
also looks like I will be charging more often than my old phone which had a 12 yr old battery in it...
And since it is a flip phone 5G offers me no benefits....
Oh well I can still get my your car warranty calls, CBD and political calls and such....
with cell or land line I PAY for my phone service for MY convenience not for marketers and such.
All marketers should be required to pay .25 or such for each call to MY phone.
for them to use service that I pay for for their benefit is just corporate socialism.

For myself I would not even have a cell phone but because of wifes health and mobility issues...
 
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KingPin!

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Here you go KP - I gave it a shot last night, got maybe half way through

It really didn't tell me anything I didn't already know about the evils of modern tech and AI and how it exploits human frailties

Didn't watch it right away when it came out because it looked like the kind of content that would just get me pissed off - and I was right, that is what happened

Great docu for anyone that is unaware of how social media works

Also, Cromwell hit the nail on the head

what could be done to change it you reckon?
 

KingPin!

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Been grumping and bitching for a few days over a related thing...

My old flip phone will stop working at the end of this month due to network upgrades...
Had this phone for around 12 year or more and well satisfied with it...
Got an email and texts for a FREE upgrade to a new flip phone.
wife did the up grade for me. Got the new phone and in the box was a bill for $149...
Called em up and raised hell think I got it straightened out...
Told em if not I was going with another carrier.
Do not like the new flip phone as much, larger and does not appear to be as durable...
Been punching in my calling list...
also looks like I will be charging more often than my old phone which had a 12 yr old battery in it...
And since it is a flip phone 5G offers me no benefits....
Oh well I can still get my your car warranty calls, CBD and political calls and such....

For myself I would not even have a cell phone but because of wifes health and mobility issues...

this might actually help get a “retro” phone with nothing on it but the basics of course does mean I’d lose contact with friends your side of the pond, work colleagues etc
 

The Cromwell

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what could be done to change it you reckon?
less flighty short attention span jumping around I think.
but since the producers are obviously of the same group that have developed short attention span as the norm...
 

The Cromwell

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this might actually help get a “retro” phone with nothing on it but the basics of course does mean I’d lose contact with friends your side of the pond, work colleagues etc

I like a dumb phone and a smart desktop/tablet.
I do no social media on my phone and just a bare minimum of texting.
One thing I do like about cell phones is basically no long distance charges.
LD charges to back home for an alien are a bitch.
 

JuicyLucy

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what could be done to change it you reckon?

Not a lot as all powers that be have an agenda - whether is corporations seeking profits or politicians seeking power (which leads to personal profits)

And humans being humans, most enjoy mind control sadly
 

Wb80

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Watched it with the wife last night. i already knew most of the info it stated. I unplugged from social media bs almost 8 years ago( vu is the closest i come now).
Good film, i hope millions of people watch it and mayb 1% at least unplug.
 

DaBunny

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well saved da pears from da Birds yet could not stop da wind.
pear tree.jpg
watched the social dilemma...
interesting doc.
all go's under the sub text progress..
ONLY social media account i have is here or netflix
unless you concider the grocery store pick up to be social media.
{{ WELL ya getta look at da folks threw the car window ya know? }} an dats being social aint it?

other den dat not so much.

yet always wondered about the so called fake news??
and this answered a lot about that.

i bassicaly look at it this way..
we are all given choices..
CHOOSE WISELY.
 

KingPin!

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Watched it with the wife last night. i already knew most of the info it stated. I unplugged from social media bs almost 8 years ago( vu is the closest i come now).
Good film, i hope millions of people watch it and mayb 1% at least unplug.

did you find it a struggle to start with? or just that’s it done no turning back?
 

Wb80

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did you find it a struggle to start with? or just that’s it done no turning back?
It was easy for me once i figured out all my "friends on fb" weren't really friends. And i was waisting time every day pretending i gave a shit looking at their fake bs posts. Like i need to see what they ate for dinner or what theyr wearing.
Deleting my fb account was a task though. That option is well hidden. I wish i could get my wife off it. But no luck there yet.
 

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I have not watched the flick in question as I don't subscribe to Netflix. That said, I rarely go to FB, maybe 1 once a week sometimes longer and then it's only for real friends and my church's page. There was a period where I was on FB daily having gotten suckered into some ridiculous game. I finally said enough. I don't have a twitter account. I don't tic or tok. I don't remember the last time I went on IG. I've never snapped or chatted or whatever that BS is.

If VU is considered social media then that's all I do. And now that I'm traveling for work again I'm only here on weekends.

I rarely use my phone to go on the internet. I use it for talking to or texting my wife when I'm on the road and a few apps I use for work.

So I guess my answer is I don't need to be connected 24/7.
 

KingPin!

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I have not watched the flick in question as I don't subscribe to Netflix. That said, I rarely go to FB, maybe 1 once a week sometimes longer and then it's only for real friends and my church's page. There was a period where I was on FB daily having gotten suckered into some ridiculous game. I finally said enough. I don't have a twitter account. I don't tic or tok. I don't remember the last time I went on IG. I've never snapped or chatted or whatever that BS is.

If VU is considered social media then that's all I do. And now that I'm traveling for work again I'm only here on weekends.

I rarely use my phone to go on the internet. I use it for talking to or texting my wife when I'm on the road and a few apps I use for work.

So I guess my answer is I don't need to be connected 24/7.

Only reason I joined Facebook was to get
Hold of some atties I looked at my usage last night average time spent on it is 28 minutes a week so not too bad I guess though I’m getting to the point of if it’s not in a shop I don’t care all that much... like WB said it’s all the fakery and ball tickling that goes on it really grates on me hence my low usage, even so I don’t need it at all really...like wb said I need to figure out how to purge my account and be done with it entirely.....my first proper social media was VU too and to be honest it’s the only one I actually still enjoy and would want to use, it’s not intrusive in terms of getting my attention I choose to look at it......I was pushed into reddit at one time but hated the format to post anything so stopped using that though I do read content sometimes in lurk mode
 

The Cromwell

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imho this 'dilemma' is not a dilemma but a fundamental change in US and world society and is not recoverable.
At best we will have to adapt to learn to coexist with it.
Well those of us who are not part of the problem anyway ;)

some of us are not as susceptible to social opinion or the mind numbing commercials, which most seem to be aimed at grade schoolers...

I see this difference in my own home. The wife unit is much more susceptible to commercials and such than I am.
I am convinced that psychiatrists and such are involved in marketing efforts.

I have become convinced over the years that if the latest wonder product performs at a 50% level of what is shown in an advertisement one is lucky.
 
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Carambrda

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imho this 'dilemma' is not a dilemma but a fundamental change in US and world society and is not recoverable.
At best we will have to adapt to learn to coexist with it.
Well those of us who are not part of the problem anyway ;)

some of us are not as susceptible to social opinion or the mind numbing commercials, which most seem to be aimed at grade schoolers...

I see this difference in my own home. The wife unit is much more susceptible to commercials and such than I am.
I am convinced that psychiatrists and such are involved in marketing efforts.

I have become convinced over the years that if the latest wonder product performs at a 50% level of what is shown in an advertisement one is lucky.
What's a social opinion?
 

KingPin!

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Well maybe not "social" social... but anyway IMO less antisocial than Farcebook and Titter.

A forum is a nice format ...room style discussion, open a discussion everyone chimes in good, bad or indifferent of course does mean you risk a thread going any which way and evolving into a different thing entirely at times but if you like following a discussion in this way it’s great unless of course moderation is overzealous Which at VU I don’t think it is.

Reddit tried to fix this issues with the up/down vote to bring the most related discussions to the top of course it doesn’t always work out that way and can turn into an echo chamber of sorts due to groups pushing stuff they agree with to the top, it also allows you to hop all over the place not to dissimilar to tap talk I guess

twitter, instagram, Facebook post something in the sea of noise to get peoples attention different beast entirely imo...drives different behaviours less about content more about scrolling fast and drawing people in to look
 

KingPin!

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Very Apt timing but anyway A.I bias as outlined above is well documented, very difficult to remove as it learns first from a core set given by the developers. They may not knowingly go about trying to corrupt it but just goes to show we aren’t there yet, but still employ these tools as a way of life these days

Twitter investigates racial bias in image previews https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54234822
 

Carambrda

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A forum is a nice format ...room style discussion, open a discussion everyone chimes in good, bad or indifferent of course does mean you risk a thread going any which way and evolving into a different thing entirely at times but if you like following a discussion in this way it’s great unless of course moderation is overzealous Which at VU I don’t think it is.

Reddit tried to fix this issues with the up/down vote to bring the most related discussions to the top of course it doesn’t always work out that way and can turn into an echo chamber of sorts due to groups pushing stuff they agree with to the top, it also allows you to hop all over the place not to dissimilar to tap talk I guess

twitter, instagram, Facebook post something in the sea of noise to get peoples attention different beast entirely imo...drives different behaviours less about content more about scrolling fast and drawing people in to look
Forums like this place are the only way to pick up and navigate through discussions in an organised, sensible manner. The other formats are just chaotic ways to disrupt the flow that should naturally spontaneously occur with any attempt to have a normal conversation: chronologically structured coherence.
 

The Cromwell

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Twits of the world rejoice in your revolution.

I expect that you will just twit and whine about the outcome though :)

Everything will be someone else's fault.

There was a fair bit of that in the video on this topic.
 

KingPin!

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Twits of the world rejoice in your revolution.

I expect that you will just twit and whine about the outcome though :)

Everything will be someone else's fault.

I don’t twit, so I’ll have to blame you in here Cromwell... is that ok?
 

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