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UPS AND FED EX MUST CHANGE THEIR DECISIONS TO STOP VAPE MAIL! Petition
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lordmage
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added but the biggest cause of the vape mail ban was the pact act law signing done by trump with the $600 budget stimulus so the only fix would be to lobby them to adjust their policy's to allow for exclusion's in addition to calling and writing to your state reps about having those same exclusions in ta modern updated pact act.
gopher_byrd
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Me and the Mrs. both signed.
Signed. It's almost up to 7,500. I wish it like was ten times that..
The pact act only affects usps. The rest of them, fedex, ups, dhl - that's on them. Unfortunately I don't see lobbying them (the gov) to be effective. The way things stand, vaping is a 'tobacco' product. The vape industry fought for that and fucked themselves because they were quick to show up the fda. Now that it's deemed a tobacco product it's regulated like other tobacco. Njoy, sotterra and them agreed it was for recreational tobacco use and agreed it wasn't cessation, harm reduction or anything else at the time. Sometimes the vape community (or businesses) are their own worst enemy.
You don't have whiskey regulated one way as alcohol and beer regulated another. They're regulated together as 'alcohol'. And while it sucks, this is no different. Cigs, vaping, tobacco/tobahco. In order to keep it fair not only would we be fighting to reverse the pact act on vaping, we'd have to do so on the part of tobacco and cigs to keep it fair. The predecessor to the pact act and what the pact act updates is the Jenkins act. That's been in effect for 70 years.
The PACT Act applies to all involved in the shipping process.
You'll have to cite that because I've read it and it applies to usps solely.
Delivery RequirementsCommon carriers or otherdelivery services must have the purchaser placing the delivery sale order or another adult sign to accept delivery of the shipping container at the delivery address. They must also obtain proof from the person who accepts delivery of the shipping container—in the form of a valid, government-issued identification bearing a photograph of the individual—that the person is at least the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery. Delivery sellers shall not accept a delivery sale order from a person without:
51.Obtaining the full name, birth date, and residential address of that person; and2.Verifying that information using a commercially available database or aggregate of databases regularly used by government and businesses for age and identity verification and authentication.RecordkeepingThe PACT Act requires that a common carrier or other delivery service:1.Maintain for 5 years any records kept in the ordinary course of business relating to any delivery interrupted because the carrier or service determines or has reason to believe that the person ordering the delivery is in violation of the Jenkins Act; and2.Provide that information, upon request, to ATF or to the attorneygeneral or chief law enforcement official or tax administrator of any State, local, or tribal government.Excise TaxThe PACT Actprovides that a delivery seller may not sell or deliver to any consumer, or tender to any common carrier or other delivery service, any cigarettes or smokeless tobacco pursuant to a delivery sale unless, in advance of the sale, delivery, or tender:1.Any cigarette or smokeless tobacco excise tax that is imposed by the State in which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are to be delivered has been paid to the State;2.Any cigarette or smokeless tobacco excise tax that is imposed by the local government of the place in which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are to be delivered has been paid to the local government; and3.Any required stamps or other indicia indicating that the excise tax has been paid are properly affixed or applied to the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco.
None of that prevents transport of vape things outside of the USPS. It adds regulations, signature verification, records keeping. But it does not block it.
Here's text I was able to find from the omnibus bill. And from 18 USC 1716E Tobacco products as non mailable. Notice it's highlighted where it says 'the mails' however all legal definitions I was able to find pertaining to 'mail' directly relate to the sanctioned US Postal Service.
Obtained as definitions from lawinsider.
I do realize it sounds like I'm taking the government's side, I'm not. I'm looking at things objectively and looking at what the law is stating, how it's implemented and playing devils advocate. Because these are all things the vaping community needs to sort out getting their shit together before just blindly kicking and screaming expecting change. Which sadly is what the community often does without gathering the actual documents and fighting this on legal merits.
"Because it sucks" isn't going to fly unfortunately. We try to come off half cocked at the government and accuse them of 'banning all vape' because of the pact act, we're already fucking ourselves and will get our asses handed to us and clowned on the legal front. Much like already happened when we insisted vaping be a 'tobacco product' in the first place. We retaliate on knee jerk instincts rather than a well thought out game plan.
"Because it sucks" isn't going to fly unfortunately. We try to come off half cocked at the government and accuse them of 'banning all vape' because of the pact act, we're already fucking ourselves and will get our asses handed to us and clowned on the legal front. Much like already happened when we insisted vaping be a 'tobacco product' in the first place. We retaliate on knee jerk instincts rather than a well thought out game plan.
thats the omnibus bill, which is usps, the Pact act is separate and if you look at the bill at sec 602 it modifies the Jenkins act (Pact act) as toadding vape goods as tobacco
It does get confusing as they did both modify the pact act and in the next section banned usps from delivering. the pact act covers delivery of tobacco products.
Congress Amends the PACT Act to Apply to All Vaping Products, Placing Huge Burden on Small Manufacturers as Third-Party Common Carriers Refuse to Ship Products
Background on the PACT Act
Straight from the ATF link I was given -
"Delivery Requirements Common carriers or other delivery services must have the purchaser placing the delivery sale order or another adult sign to accept delivery of the shipping container at the delivery address. They must also obtain proof from the person who accepts delivery of the shipping container—in the form of a valid, government-issued identification bearing a photograph of the individual— that the person is at least the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery. Delivery sellers shall not accept a delivery sale order from a person without:"
"2. “Common Carrier” means any person—other than a local messenger service or the United States Postal Service (USPS)—that holds itself out to the public as a provider for hire for the transportation of merchandise by water, land, or air. This applies whether or not the person actually operates the vessel, vehicle, or aircraft that provides the transportation between a port or place and a port or place in the U.S."
So we're talking about other carriers, other than USPS (which is strictly pointed out in the Pact/Jenkins act). Fedex, UPS etc. And it lists restrictions and guidelines yes. Bans? No. Which is exactly as I said above. "None of that prevents transport of vape things outside of the USPS. It adds regulations, signature verification, records keeping. But it does not block it."
Giving clear instruction as to what the 'common carrier' (other than USPS) must do in order to deliver to consumers or customers shows they do in fact allow delivery to customers by 'common carriers'. Or delivery instructions and regulations would be moot and it would just be 'No'.
"Delivery Requirements Common carriers or other delivery services must have the purchaser placing the delivery sale order or another adult sign to accept delivery of the shipping container at the delivery address. They must also obtain proof from the person who accepts delivery of the shipping container—in the form of a valid, government-issued identification bearing a photograph of the individual— that the person is at least the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery. Delivery sellers shall not accept a delivery sale order from a person without:"
"2. “Common Carrier” means any person—other than a local messenger service or the United States Postal Service (USPS)—that holds itself out to the public as a provider for hire for the transportation of merchandise by water, land, or air. This applies whether or not the person actually operates the vessel, vehicle, or aircraft that provides the transportation between a port or place and a port or place in the U.S."
So we're talking about other carriers, other than USPS (which is strictly pointed out in the Pact/Jenkins act). Fedex, UPS etc. And it lists restrictions and guidelines yes. Bans? No. Which is exactly as I said above. "None of that prevents transport of vape things outside of the USPS. It adds regulations, signature verification, records keeping. But it does not block it."
Giving clear instruction as to what the 'common carrier' (other than USPS) must do in order to deliver to consumers or customers shows they do in fact allow delivery to customers by 'common carriers'. Or delivery instructions and regulations would be moot and it would just be 'No'.
lordmage
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to add recording keeping and reporting to the states ATF and insure the tax is collected on the items transported and those items are why most carrier's outside of usps are going the were not gonna do it route... basically anyone transporting tobacco products which now include vape must ensure the receiving agent or person has the correct license either to resell or and id to buy it. then they must collect the tax or ensure the proper tax stamp is on the items and relay and report it to the state agency's both ATF and whoever else and must keep said records for at least 6months or something like that...
it is all the added work on the transporting carrier that has banned aka stopped vape mail. so the only way i see getting third party carriers to pick up the ball (boycott until they do) would not work since other people would still use them. we as a community did are selfs over by not fighting the tobacco product label and i did years ago say that if we didnt we would be rolled into the pact act at some point and the congress distracted us over flavor bans and other agenda and we missed the biggest issue due to the add on to the spending bill. now we must look for a third way which will take a long time to sort out unless vendors as a whole merge into a national chain where a user can pick up local... which someplaces would he worse off and this would take a while before anything we need a large scale legal importer and freight company all this will take time and money that we dont have
it is all the added work on the transporting carrier that has banned aka stopped vape mail. so the only way i see getting third party carriers to pick up the ball (boycott until they do) would not work since other people would still use them. we as a community did are selfs over by not fighting the tobacco product label and i did years ago say that if we didnt we would be rolled into the pact act at some point and the congress distracted us over flavor bans and other agenda and we missed the biggest issue due to the add on to the spending bill. now we must look for a third way which will take a long time to sort out unless vendors as a whole merge into a national chain where a user can pick up local... which someplaces would he worse off and this would take a while before anything we need a large scale legal importer and freight company all this will take time and money that we dont have
I agree, there's a lot of added burden. But the same burden as existing tobacco. Which is precisely what all this 'vape mail ban' stuff was for. To update existing tobacco laws to reflect modern tobacco usage. Same with other stuff like all the ebikes and escooters. Existing regulations and provisions were for motor vehicles, foot traffic, pedaled bikes. Electric bikes and scooters kind of fell outside the existing realm, they weren't a thing when the laws were initially written. So they had to figure out and are still figuring out how to deal with them.
It does all go back to vaping being classed as tobacco, without that there would be no ecigs update to the pact act. And I realize at the time the bigger issue was the fda outright blocking vape imports from even making it into the docks. But as long ago as that was, what 2006, 2007? That was well after the original Jenkins act in 1949. So whoever cooked up the scheme to just call vaping 'tobacco' and ran with it had ample access to information that would have given them insight as to the kind of restriction they'd be signing themselves up for. This didn't come out of the blue, wasn't a new law thought up simply to attack vaping. If this was in fact done with the mindset of squashing vaping, well - the vaping industry handed them the bullet. On a silver platter.
It is a means to control and tax the items, also in line with all tobacco items. Even outside the industry, outside of lawyers. Just average users, customers, the typical 'Joe'. Anyone who smoked shocked to find out tobacco and cigs are heavily taxed? Or regulated? Anyone surprised to find out that on every pack of smokes is a little tax stamp denoting the state in which that particular product was authorized to be sold? Preventing things like say lower taxed cigs from Arkansas being sold in a higher taxed area like Illinois? If laypeople aren't shocked by this I'm hard pressed to think this totally escaped the vaping industry when they sued the FDA. And demanded vaping be considered 'tobacco'. I'm far from the smartest cookie in the jar and I figured that out with like 20min and google. So what's their excuse? Or did they just not care or figure they'd kick that can down the road for another day? I mean so long as you get them $$'s today right.
Most if not all the fights I see brought against all these various control measures basically reside in the concept of turning back everything. Turning back the clock in an attempt to get vaping where it was even a few years ago. To where though, a point of no oversight, no regulation, no taxation? Does that legitimately sound like any industry within the US or free world? Ideally sure, let's turn it back to the way things were. But it's like when you're at the store and realize they have 2 tv boxes taped together charging the customer for just one. Get it while it's good, get in on while it lasts. But you know it's only a matter of time before it's caught and an end is put to it.
Same with amazon, they bucked the system. No one was getting taxed. It was unfair to the local brick and mortars who were all bound to the headache of taxing their items. And who had to charge a higher final price. Buying online everywhere? What's that? It wasn't a thing. Amazon dodged it here and skirted it there. And customers had a free for all purchasing stuff straight to their doorstep tax free. For awhile. Until the regulatory bodies got a chance to look it all over and come up with a solution. And now? When I make a purchase on Amazon I'm charged sales tax. Free rides don't last forever. Looking at the vape industry is it even logical to think that in some way realistically our industry would somehow be the one unicorn to exist outside of the regulations and taxation everyone else falls under? Oh the suck is very real, but the reality is anything but shocking.
The grim reality is that Donald Trump signed into law the bill that ultimately will stop all vape mail. If you really want that repealed, write your congressmen, senators, and Joe Biden. They might not do anything about it, but you don't know if you don't try. Apparently the US Post Awful doesn't give a shit what you like. They seem more interested in wasting money and whining to Congress that they need more... just like any special interest group.
If the PMTA can be repealed, FedEx and UPS can resume delivering vape mail, and perhaps (as a form of peer pressure) the post awful can follow suit.
If the PMTA can be repealed, FedEx and UPS can resume delivering vape mail, and perhaps (as a form of peer pressure) the post awful can follow suit.
lordmage
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agreed and to add the amazon tax thing works only if amazon had a building in your state i was tax free until they built a local warehouse... after that it was taxed which may be the rework of tax code you speak of... now i imagine they have a warehouse in most if not all state so that is why most people get taxed... now if only the vape industry worked like amazon there would be a local warehouse that users could pick up from....
Signed it from a link on FB.
Sign on to tell shipping companies to reverse the vape ban!
docs.google.com
Sign on to tell shipping companies to reverse the vape ban!
March 15, 2021 Ladies and Gentlemen, I write today on behalf of the Smoke-Free Alternatives Trade Association (SFATA), the largest U.S. trade association representing small businesses in the vapor products industry. We respectfully request that you pull back your vapor shipping ban policy in...
docs.google.com
DoneSign on to tell shipping companies to reverse the vape ban!
Sign on to tell shipping companies to reverse the vape ban!
March 15, 2021 Ladies and Gentlemen, I write today on behalf of the Smoke-Free Alternatives Trade Association (SFATA), the largest U.S. trade association representing small businesses in the vapor products industry. We respectfully request that you pull back your vapor shipping ban policy in...