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Vaping Militia should consider changing its name

tombaker

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Definition of Militia
FYI
mi·li·tia
noun \mə-ˈli-shə\ : a group of people who are not part of the armed forces of a country but are trained like soldiers

Full Definition of MILITIA
1
a : a part of the organized armed forces of a country liable to call only in emergency

b : a body of citizens organized for military service
2
: the whole body of able-bodied male citizens declared by law as being subject to call to military service
reading your link page....further down in the definition of the noun, it confirms what I and others have raised about the Marketing Aspects of the Militia term. I am NOT saying VM is this definition.

I am just showing what is part of the makeup of the word, which people will perceive. The problem is overcoming those ingrained perceptions, a huge hurdle, and the only after that, being able to ably be an activist for Vaping. What Webster's says is actually beyond what I believe is problematic with the word, I don't think they are being fair, or their content provider.

Per your link :
"Today various paramilitary organizations, from U.S. white supremacists to revolutionaries in the developing world, use the term militia to accentuate their populist origins."
 
Julius's selective quoting to get sympathy from something I said.
Hehehe now you're going to tell me how to talk...like I need your advice, no thanks. Oh and I am sooooo sorry I missed an 'o' in a word, please forgive me I promise never to do it again. Ah hell, yes I will, it will give you something to feel right about. Oh geez Joe, please don't ban me for missing an 'o', i promise to try not to do it again.Seems that those who know you here have you pegged. I think they're wrong though, I think you're BrianJ in purple sheep skin. Come on now, tell me I'm right, come on...you can't fool me.:rolleyes:

Hell yeah, now I am getting under your skin.... Love it! Don't know who BrianJ is and do I care? Nope. You try and be a troll, you get trolled. Do we continue this conversation, Vapo?
 

tombaker

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You know TomBaker, I will respond.

Take it for what it is. I posted in response to you on a Facebook thread about two weeks ago and asked you a question for a source. You repeatedly have stated that the FDA has said that they will not regulate hardware. I asked you for a source. You never answered. So in my mind and everyone else's mind that is either a lie, or a fabrication.

"Nacht NoirTom Baker Can you please find me the link to the info regarding a FDA comment that they CAN NOT regulate hardware? I simply have not heard or read that comment from any FDA source."
nachtnoir: So as VM team-leader you see me posting about the FDA Deeming documents, you know the source is the Deeming Documents, because I said as much, you are aware that Carl Phillips and others locked down threads there, BUT you don't see a reply. SOOOO from that exchange or exchangous interuptous after the closed thread, YOU conclude that I was either lying, or a fabricator, AND you are so sure of your conclusions, you deem them to be EVERYONE ELSE'S MIND too. Sorry guy, that just won't fly. I have an entire post that got me banned from ECF, posted here, and explaining on the APV Hardware topic. I posted a lot of proof here on the VU thread, but I have more.

How can you lead when you are so quick to conclude, and wrongly? I am a liar because YOU CAN NOT BE BOTHERED TO READ http://vapingunderground.com/thread...te-vaping-hardware-detailed-explanation.3743/ You knew I was posting.

Your next quote is part of a long exchange I attempted to have with the Public Policy expert at CASAA, Carl Philips. I asked him some questions, and tried to get responses....guess what, he just it the thread was locked down. He knows me, he got me temporarily banned off ECF, he even had all my messages removed within the thread, and even when quoted. I was fully vanished.

ANYWAY, YES I asked him questions. His math used to create the 99.99% of all products will be banned by the FDA per the FDA's own estimates. is wrong. I showed it to him, explained it to him, he won't reply.

Sorry if you think purported authority is unquestionable, I don't, and I ask questions to confirm things.


Tom Baker
"5. You know that no hardware without Nicotine is able to be regulated by the FDA, per the FDA. So how do you think that there are 100,000 products." from a post you wrote on the WeAreCASAA Facebook


Where do I belittle anyone, or attack them, by saying they are wrong? Take it as rehorical, because its BS, you won't show it.

When your comment is addressed and text was quoted directly from the proposed deeming regs, you belittle and attack implying that the person reading those regs don't read it the same way as you.

When you are given clear "King's English", you divert or insult with language that belittles the poster. So if you are gonna state something as fact. You should give the source. The FDA has released no concrete application process, nor have they stated what pathway will be present once these proposed regs are finalized. There is a concensus in the industry that there will be a process similar to what the FDA does with other non-drug product approvals. Why is it that you think you know better than everyone else?
Who said what where? Consensus? I know what I am saying. I know what I can show. Flavors are out, Hardware without Nicotine is out. FDA is not saying 99.99 of all products are going to get banned. There are real problems, but to go around and say "The FDA is saying" as if they have, is factually wrong.


Now again below: YES my dear, I did tell Carl that he was wrong. And is wrong. I explained it. And I have shown him that the FDA does have a measure of Public Health Benefit defined. Its when I quoted that back to him, he only talks around me now. Perhaps he will rejoice if minions can get me banned. This thread has tons of posts from 1 day old VU members


This is a sample of one of those replies where you belittle and attack.
"Tom BakerCarl Phillips, I am telling you that you have bad data, bad conclusions, and knowingly presenting a false narrative. I am informing you that you are wrong, and doing it specifically to which items. Whoop, insult, and holler, but you ignoring responding each time. I have put out clearly where you are wrong, your work, wrong. I laid out the points. Why crumble when your work is reviewed? Your math is wrong, and the FDA found that, you have completely missed see the criteria for public health benefit inside the deeming. Unlike Glantz's theory dual usage is a net positive. You know or should know that getting approval is not going to be 10 Million dollars for each item, will you acknowledge you know better? You know your claims that only Cartomizers (ie Cigalikes) will exist after the Deeming, is wrong, and that E-Liquids will be approved just like any product. All Vaping, includes E-Liquid. So why act as if raw E-Liquid approval is different. Carl, have the intellectual honesty to respond with substance. Are you able?"

Do you think there is a reason that you were banned from ECF? Other than the one you have created in your mind? It seems like there are many members here that know your hijinx and history.
LOLOLOL do I think there is a reason why I was banned from ECF? YES. Is it the one in my mind, well yes again, its also what Chris Price told me. Its seems that there are 5 or 6 new posters here, just joined, to post on this of all threads, and you are quoting them as saying that they know my history.....OK fine. But you are the guy saying how proud you were to be getting new members, as if me, 1 guy, alone, army of one thing, is some sort of checkpoint. LOLOL, dude honestly I have just actually done the homework, read the documents.

www.soundcloud.com/vp-live/the-wrath-of-tom-baker-hanamodz-debacle-nyc-lawsuit-update

Maybe this thread did go a little off topic. But I think I will end it now. You can be upset that I called you a Liar and that you Misdirect/Misrepresent/Fabricate.
Oh OKay.....you are OKay with calling me, a liar. Dupe dooopie doooo. I am not, and you can not lead effectively by disregarding what I can show as objective truth. When the FDA says they can not ban flavors in any Tobacoo products EXCEPT Cigarette......am I lying? You think I am. I am not.


I do apologize for one thing, I didn't find the post about Greg Conley, so substitute Carl Phillips there instead. I think referring to CASAA as "Astroturf" will prove an example of attacking them.
I did not attack Philips. Is saying someone is wrong, an attack? What are you the PC police too? I said that CASAAs concerns about Astroturf on FTV were no different than their means of going after the FDA. And FWIW the entire astroturf thing is a meaningless. Comments are comments. Right now CASAA has got 34 comments in total being able to be found on Regulations.gov I hope people comment. You may, but I not with U though.

Forgive my not addressing all of your numbered issues. This should be enough of a response.​
 
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The Ocelot

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tattoo_design_phoenix_by_nerafinuota-d2ts0u0.jpg
220px-Kleines_Bundessiegel_BAZ.jpg
3f1493b9dfe51a803f144b3feb74c0bb.jpeg


One of these is a Phoenix.
 
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Joe Barnett

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Well thanks for letting me see that Facebook Group, which I had looked for and was not able to find. Now of course you think that I was trying to make myself look foolish and clearly I had to know, yada yada yada.

Well sorry, there is something wrong with the SEO or whatever, because I was able to at least duplicate the problem and confirm it with your screen shot. The third link is https://www.facebook.com/pages/Vaping-Militia/197779013763881, that is what pops up, a dead group on Facebook, and no suggestions otherwise. Your screenshot shows the problem.

I actually did look for the group, but yes I am clearly wrong, but if nothing else by me saying what I found, and with your confirmation of the issue, hopefully VM can do whatever tweaks are necessary to correct the missed linking opportunities Or whatever is the right lingo for fixing SEO issues.

A google seach on the Vaping Militia, won't find the actual facebook page, anywhere near the top results. Won't show it on suggestions in facebook on the link Google gives, unless you specifically type "The" in before Vaping Militia, in the Facebook search side.

Thank you for noticing that I will be working in that today
 

Vapo

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Hell yeah, now I am getting under your skin.... Love it! Don't know who BrianJ is and do I care? Nope. You try and be a troll, you get trolled. Do we continue this conversation, Vapo?

Just continue to follow me and have a good time, I am. It's been a long time since I was in jr high but for nostalgia it might be fun to go back for a while. Oh...please check my spelling and make sure I didn't miss anything..it's the one and only thing I've found you're good at.

M3rma1d!?!?! I have a FOLLOWER!!! Please meet me at Grandma's IMMEDIATELY!!!!!
 
Just continue to follow me and have a good time, I am. It's been a long time since I was in jr high but for nostalgia it might be fun to go back for a while. Oh...please check my spelling and make sure I didn't miss anything..it's the one and only thing I've found you're good at.

M3rma1d!?!?! I have a FOLLOWER!!! Please meet me at Grandma's IMMEDIATELY!!!!!

Grandma's it is, you ready for some crow pie? For someone who keeps bringing up junior high playgrounds, you sure like to stay and play on this one. So is it TACKLE football, or do you want to wimp out and play FLAG football. I am ready! Are you?

Of course I am gonna follow you, you are my friend now....friends stick together. What would you do without friends? Oh, Vapo, still checking your spelling.... so far so good. ;)
 

kelli

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Vapo

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Grandma's it is, you ready for some crow pie? For someone who keeps bringing up junior high playgrounds, you sure like to stay and play on this one. So is it TACKLE football, or do you want to wimp out and play FLAG football. I am ready! Are you?

Of course I am gonna follow you, you are my friend now....friends stick together. What would you do without friends? Oh, Vapo, still checking your spelling.... so far so good. ;)
I have to admit this is my introduction to those in the "vaping militia" and so far all I see is that playground. I don't mean to repeat myself but when the conversation (talk) elevates (raises) some maybe it'll stop reminding me of it. Tackle, flag, snertball, whatever your fancy (likes). I'm here for the fun even at the primate (ape) habitat (dwelling, home). I'm sure you make a great crow pie, everyone should make a diet (food) they can digest (bodily absorb)
 

tombaker

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.....
Step aside because we will keep on doing as we are doing with the help of those who can think for themselves ......You are with us or against us, yours to decide. ......

Art B.
aka TruckCentral
Co-Founder and Financial Director
The Vaping Militia LLC

 

Joe Barnett

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I have to admit this is my introduction to those in the "vaping militia" and so far all I see is that playground. I don't mean to repeat myself but when the conversation (talk) elevates (raises) some maybe it'll stop reminding me of it. Tackle, flag, snertball, whatever your fancy (likes). I'm here for the fun even at the primate (ape) habitat (dwelling, home). I'm sure you make a great crow pie, everyone should make a diet (food) they can digest (bodily absorb)

This thread has little to do with what we actually do, come visit us over at http://thevapingmilitia.org/ so you can see what we do. Thank you for your interest
 

tombaker

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This thread has little to do with what we actually do, come visit us over at http://thevapingmilitia.org/ so you can see what we do. Thank you for your interest
Joe Barnett:
1. Sure this thread has little to do with Vaping Militia, its was some non-group members, thinking using a Militia name, might not be the best message for the goals. Barnett you understand the historical usage of the word? And you understand that most living humans are using the CURRENT definitions? Words gather new meanings over time, it way cool and totally sick....you get that?

2. Why did the majority of Vaping Militia's founders and for lack of better word, management, come over, call me a liar, attempt to discredit me, on this thread.....THEN, literally hoop and holler telling me they are getting more interest in your Vaping Militia, by acting like that. Pummeling me, to get new members, you top staff seems to think that this thread is a VERY effective Recruitment tool. I don't think you disagree with them.

3. The bombardment on this thread got this moved into a Mud Pit, and the OP we all agree remains well intentioned and thoughtful.

4. Barnett, HOW COULD YOU NOT know the history of that insignia? I honestly think your entire group is ignorant entirely of that Eagle. Of all this historical art, why would you choice that symbol of conquest, for Vaping? I for one, think its just a massive fuck up, and you and the rest VM are clueless how the history. Can you guys just call it mistake, and get new graphics and such?

5. Lastly, the senior management of Vaping Militia was asked some basic questions on what you all mean by:
"The Vaping Militia's task is not to stand in front of City Coucils and testify. Our task is to alert vapers where the threats are, to prepare them with documentation and education so that they can stand and defend themselves. We have never and will never annouce ourselves as members of the Vaping Militia in that way. When we do have to testify we do so as private citizens. The people we have helped wih their defense will tell you that we never ask them to state that they are members of the Militia. We are the alert system to warn that the enemy is coming."​

The alert side is redundant to other organizations, and just a basic aggregation at best, though no evidence that CASAA is not the entire source repository. What is this stuff about being a secret group, that will never announce itself. The same Militia guy say that, had also just published a list of names, for some unknown fucking reason, so what the heck is up this?

Yes we can go to your website, I have, but I am asking you about what your senior staff has shared on this thread. What YOU guys have said here.
If Truckcentral, and nachtnoir are going to just be turn-tails, so be it, at this point after asking you to respond here, IF YOU AND CREW don't support or are unable to support your conduct and comments, I am certainly able, and my thread won't be mud pitted....adapt.
 

Warhawk-AVG

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Wait..what? Are you saying the phoenix insignia is eeeevil?

Perhaps you should go look up the history of the swastika BEFORE the daggum nazi's screwed it all up.

Unfortunately due to some jackballs that corrupted the symbol...it took on a whole new meaning, kinda like rainbows
 

tombaker

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Wait..what? Are you saying the phoenix insignia is eeeevil?

Perhaps you should go look up the history of the swastika BEFORE the daggum nazi's screwed it all up.

Unfortunately due to some jackballs that corrupted the symbol...it took on a whole new meaning, kinda like rainbows
We agree, on some. It was screwed up, it has a new meaning from the forgotten historical, history moved on, using it now must reflect the corrupting that occurred, toothpaste is out of the tube people are fools to say I can easily just put it back, Rainbows are now used as means to separate, instead of melting pot. The word Dreamer, is the latest word being "worked on" to change the meaning. I oppose re-purposing words to create wordspeak.

But that is not a Phoenix, you know better.
 
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jae

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oh fuck it, this whole thread has devolved into pure unbridled human ugliness.

why can't you people just talk to each other rationally without being nasty and shitty? or making snide, insipid comments belittling those who don't agree with yourselves? are we not all on the same side of something here? this is just ridiculous and embarrassing.
 
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tombaker

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As for you TomBaker, I am smiling now, because in a way you legitimize our work by trolling us. You have attacked (Carl Phillips), CASAA and almost every leader in advocacy so we become more relevant when you troll us. I would also like to thank you because we have added about 15 new members today. Thank you for the publicity. I would like to point out that in almost every case of your trolling you have fabricated information or misquoted people, or all out made up information in every possible way.....You misdirect vapers from the important information and tear down the work of those greater than you.
nachtnoir, I got it, you think you got benefit. Fine.
I have started a different thread, where I am the OP.
Jeremy your last post caused me so reflection, but I can say 5 tons of Flax, is still correct.

nachtnoir and crew: If you would like to reply to my thread, its fine.
But remember I don't need you or your crew to.
I do want to not get it Mud Pitted so I just ask you oblige on that front.
The post is worth about 20,000 words, so how much can be said additionally.

You can see my Thread, different Topic here.
http://vapingunderground.com/thread...earn-history-realize-others-wont-forget.6956/

It's designed in mind for Visual learners, not a lot of text needed.
 

Myk

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oh fuck it, this whole thread has devolved into pure unbridled human ugliness.

why can't you people just talk to each other rationally without being nasty and shitty? or making snide, insipid comments belittling those who don't agree with yourselves? are we not all on the same side of something here? this is just ridiculous and embarrassing.

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
 

tombaker

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"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Your best post ever, and I will keep it in mind.
 
He knows me, he got me temporarily banned off ECF, he even had all my messages removed within the thread, and even when quoted. I was fully vanished.
I got banned from ECF! I got banned from ECF! Boo hoo hoo hoo! That all you cry about, Thomas! Shut up already about getting banned. What is so important about ECF! You love that forum so much or what? SHUT UP ABOUT IT! Any my goodness, you even posted it on your profile page. Damn, dude you are too much! You make such long posts, that it seems on the surface, "Damn, this guy knows what his is talking about!" But then when you really read it, it is just regurgitated nonsense. IMO. I don't really care about this Vaping Militia. If they are doing something good for the community so be it. If not, then they will crash and burn (like you did on ECF). Why worry about what they use on their logo. Major of people seem to like what they are doing. German symbols this and German symbols that... who cares! Oh that is right, you do... a troll always cares enough to troll his very best!
 
Was that ringo starr on the drums
The music video, directed by David Leland, was shot on March 22 and 23, 1989 on a sound stage at Pinewood Studios and released on April 24, 1989. Traveling Wilburysbandmates George Harrison and Jeff Lynne appear in the video. Mike Campbell and Harrison's former Beatles bandmate Ringo Starr are also featured in the video along with George's famous painted stratocaster "Rocky". Starr is depicted in the video as playing the drums on the song, though in reality, drumming was performed by Phil Jones.
 

Ellipsis

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i have a headache now, thank you very much:confused:
 

Joe Barnett

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Just to be clear neither the symbols used nor the name is up for debate. What ever your interpretation is it is yours. Thank you for your concerns they were heard regardless of the tone.
 

tombaker

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I got banned from ECF! I got banned from ECF! Boo hoo hoo hoo! That all you cry about, Thomas! Shut up already about getting banned. What is so important about ECF! You love that forum so much or what? SHUT UP ABOUT IT! Any my goodness, you even posted it on your profile page. Damn, dude you are too much! You make such long posts, that it seems on the surface, "Damn, this guy knows what his is talking about!" But then when you really read it, it is just regurgitated nonsense. IMO. I don't really care about this Vaping Militia. If they are doing something good for the community so be it. If not, then they will crash and burn (like you did on ECF). Why worry about what they use on their logo. Major of people seem to like what they are doing. German symbols this and German symbols that... who cares! Oh that is right, you do... a troll always cares enough to troll his very best!
Morrow: Carl Philips has a PhD in Public Policy, and is the director of Science for CASAA. When on ECF, I showed his creative representation of the safety of Chewing Tobacco were false, and the math was wrong. I was doing this because Vaping was being anchored to the well known understanding that Chew is cancer causing. And Vaping is not. I was banned for saying that. It's not getting banned for insulting, its being banned for ideas.

Doing research on E-Cig laws and regulations does not require special clearance or pre-approval. It requires one thing, being correct. When The Vaping Militia comes here, and calls me a liar, for things they have not bothered to checkout or verify. That's a problem of group think, or being lead by the nose with blind faith.

Prior to a crew of the Vaping Militia coming on here and calling me a liar, and inexplicably thinking doing such was good for creating new membership, my comments were essentially the Name was a big turn-off to the intended audience. I explained why, but the opinion on the demerits of the name are majority, not unique to me at all.

After which I am told to either step aside, join the VM, or be against them. Well Barnett and company, you should realize I can be none of the above. And as American I won't just shut up, and be lied about, and told what to do, because VM thinks they can get new members by taking those actions.

And when I tell you that the FDA regulations contain things, instead of calling me a liar, perhaps you should do some work understanding. Activists without comprehension, are lemmings to the cliff. Adapt.
Don't tread on me.
 

Joe Barnett

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I am glad you will not shut up, thank you for your incite and evaluation, it has been noted.
 

tombaker

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Just to be clear neither the symbols used nor the name is up for debate. What ever your interpretation is it is yours. Thank you for your concerns they were heard regardless of the tone.
Of course they are up for debate. Nobody can force you to do anything, I can tell you that rekindling stains from the past, could easily create negative impressions for vapers and advocay, but its your choice. Nobody will decide except you and your group....but it is up for debate, that's why 5-7 of you guys are posting on this thread.

My impression is one of common sense. The governing entities that Vaping activists can have positive effects upon, have certain sensibilities. As do reporters writing articles on Vaping. Having threatening graphics and historical imagery on your logo, and website, when reporters do research can give a bent to an article that won't be postive. Its entirely unlcear if you have considered this. The majority of people see the Militia angle as a net negative. Its not a debate. The activity for activists is not benefited in any way by having those historical graphics, the antagonistic graphics, it does not help with ANYONE who is in government or reporters. No benefit, and lots of possible downside. That means only downside. I absolutely want to hear of The Vaping Militia positive help, but I am not confused by attendance equaling accomplishment, or dead on arrival bills that never stood a chance but are used by Politicians to raise funds on and campaign with.

When I informed people on ECF that Hayward CA was going to zone out the existing vape shops, I watched vendor say they were going to attend the hearing, only to have ECF ban them for life, for not being an registered as a vendor. I think that because you can have a dry county, still in the USA, that the local implications are significant to stores, more so than being able to Vape in a restaurant or not. So when The Vaping Militia comes to knock me down call me a liar, you compelled me to research. And if nothing else, I am a research monkey.

SO AFTER THAT LONG PREAMBLE:
Explain for your Group, what and why:

1. Why did you choose to use on your original (retro) Banners and Pins to have a Skull (totenkopf) and a gun target sight? What is the point of the Skull? The only large and formal usage of a military or militia using that symbol was the SS. (I know, fuck me, why did you make me look at the pins you are selling on your website). Explain your choice of imagery on the first revision of your logos. Is the skull a warning, a promotion, meant to strike fear? Whats the reason for the Skull and Gun sight?????

2. Why are you using the Germanic Eagle (Coat of Arms) on your current logo. What is it you want to convey? What should your audience think when they see it. Why that image instead of using the United States of America's Bald Eagle. You understand the military's usage of that image, and it undenyable you are using THAT eagle. Why. Why not change it, if you did not know. You are able to view the other thread, there is NO CONFUSION.
So why do you think its going to go away? When a reporter see it, unless many will recognize it.

3. If you don't join the discussion, if you don't want to "debate" ---> it does not solve the problem. So why would you not Consider it?

4. If you are not considering it, What is the MESSAGE OF THE IMAGES?
1a3d2492d3fe5a8c4c6c7c4647ce8339.jpg
fdce173fdc4f19832dc3094b1642f6c9.jpg


Thank you for answering the above in advance, and regardless of the tone, please don't be Tone deaf to the topic, and how you may be perceived by the very people you want to come the side of Vapers.

So can you explain the images? If not, consider an image-makeover.
 
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RynoSerious

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I have been a member of the VM for a bit now, and in all honesty, they are covering local and state advocacy now, and freed casaa up to cover the national scene.

Judge a book by its cover, thats fine.. But always remember, if you dont advocate, noone will. We the VM will continue to do our due diligence, and bring you the information, and education you ned to advocate for our industry.


tags up.



RYNO.
 

RynoSerious

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And tombaker, im just curious, as you disect, and incriminate on your assumptions. Have you seen the work that the VM has done for the PV industry? And what all if anything have you done in order to advocate for our industry?
 

tombaker

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And tombaker, im just curious, as you disect, and incriminate on your assumptions. Have you seen the work that the VM has done for the PV industry? And what all if anything have you done in order to advocate for our industry?
For the simple reason that I think the Militia moniker is more of a liability to the effort of swinging government officals to the correct side, I responded to this thread, with my rationale. Its not any different that a whole bunch of people. Its been said to Joe Barnett when he has been interviewed, and the interviewer said they disagreed with the jargon of the name, and it was not going away.

From there I get Nacht Noir saying:
As for you TomBaker, I am smiling now, because in a way you legitimize our work by trolling us. You have attacked Greg Conley, CASAA and almost every leader in advocacy so we become more relevant when you troll us. I would also like to thank you because we have added about 15 new members today. Thank you for the publicity. I would like to point out that in almost every case of your trolling you have fabricated information or misquoted people, or all out made up information in every possible way.
Now, I am not a liar, nor troll, (unless you consider disagreement to questionable authority) and after being banned, and thread locked, I won't sit quietly, to something like the above.

I responded back to Nacht Nor, and Truckcenteral, who caved quickly, and would not reply.

As far as advocay, back in 2013, after reading all the "Bill Godshall says" stickies on ECF, I posted a thread called, along the lines of the FDA is not the issue, local and State bans are the big problem. Went into detail, thread had like 13,000 views. As I recall the 4th poster was Greg Conoly, asking to have the thread shut down. It was shut down, but not until there were like 800 replies. I am going off memory right now.

This is where I am happy to see, the formation of Vaping Militia, after that. I don't think that CASAA is going to have a huge impact on the Federal side. And its clear on how they dropped the ball on the commenting to the FDA. As I have said on Click Bang, if I were to have one clear message, its the local bans and State bans that are the biggest thread in the near term. Near term, is like the next 4 years. So how am I so fucked up then? I don't like the name, I voted on this thread, I got pushed back by the management of Vaping Militia. Well I do my own work, I read the documents myself, I don't just listen. I had seen that Eagle in my time, and I knew it was historical. After the attacks, I went and looked, and sure enough, its the insignia of the Third Riech. So yah, I think Barnett is a off-base on knowing history, which is what he said was the explanation of the Militia name during his interviews.on history. Maybe Barnett great on the Colonial stuff, but that is over 200 years old. WWII vets are alive today, dying off at about 600 a day. So when I get the crazy story the Coat of Arms, is now a Phoneix, Rising again, I know its junk.

I posted another thread, that proves beyond a doubt, its the wrong symbol to use, and especially in conjunction with a Militia. Then today to find out the original "retro" banners for VM feature a totenkopf, instead of that Eagle. I really don't want to post the officer hats that feature both symbols together, and the lapels. The graphics and the name, is damaging to crediblilty. Well on this thread NachtNoir says the VM folks will never self identify, so its really a WTF. He won't answer the questions about that mode of advocay, which I don't understand. So that is about this thread.

So Nacthnoir, who does not know anything about what I have done whenever, gets spoon fed some information from one of guys who Hacked the www.FreetoVape.org website. Give him an earful. So he says I attacked Carl Phillips on CASAA's Facebook with this:

I am telling you that you have bad data, bad conclusions, and knowingly presenting a false narrative. I am informing you that you are wrong, and doing it specifically to which items. Whoop, insult, and holler, but you ignoring responding each time. I have put out clearly where you are wrong, your work, wrong. I laid out the points. Why crumble when your work is reviewed? Your math is wrong, and the FDA found that, you have completely missed see the criteria for public health benefit inside the deeming. Unlike Glantz's theory dual usage is a net positive. You know or should know that getting approval is not going to be 10 Million dollars for each item, will you acknowledge you know better? You know your claims that only Cartomizers (ie Cigalikes) will exist after the Deeming, is wrong, and that E-Liquids will be approved just like any product.​
I said all that, and if you read it, I am saying Phillips is wrong on very specific things. Such an attack, gosh. Now look how long this stinking reply is, you know I am going to back up what I said. Notice what I said "Whoop, insult, and holler, but you ignoring responding each time." Yes I did say that for cause.

Here is the message than spawned my reply you see above.

Wow. It is clear that Michael started this thread for a clear focused purpose, and it was well said. He did not set out to generally argue how clueless and egocentric (a defined technical term, btw, like astroturf) Baker is. But Baker decided to jump in and make that point too. If he were a somewhat more disciplined troll, he would have stayed far away from this one. But since he did not, it makes a pretty good thread to bookmark and point to any time someone wants to point out the utter non-productiveness of his role in our world.
So I replied on the facts. Myk on this thread, is the Michael who started a thread about me on CASAA, which I had replied to, Philips like to do stuff like that, real Ivory Tower type of insulter. Today he is attacking Dr. Michael Siegel, because the Chewing Tobacco corporations that have been paying Phillips are not pleased with Dr. Siegel on Chew. CASAA is multiple focuses, they don't like the fact I think because CASAA is nearly entirely supported by Vapers, that they should only work on Vaper Issue, Carl is not a vaper, you can watch him in a video holding an EGO, like a prop, not dragging on it, drops in down the recliner, and does not bother to fetch it....a Vaper does not do that.

So NachtNoir did exactly what Phillips asked, but he took my reply after what he said, I think the thread is gone now.

So yes I can show on the advocacy side that the FDA has defined a critera of public health Benefit, which has dual usage as a net positive....so the people jumping up that hill, could be on a better fight.

Its looking like Vaping Militia is going to be a simple appendage to CASAA. Their grunts. Which I have concern on, because I already know folks are spinning wheel to take hills, that are purposeless.

Nachtnoir, Truckcentral, and the rest of the crew, taunted me, called me a liar, I back it up. I was forced to research more.
Explain this: http://vapingunderground.com/thread...earn-history-realize-others-wont-forget.6956/ If Barnett is going to not understand history, justify thing based history, and then turn tail, and not explain what is obvious. I won't follow TruckCentral by stepping aside.
You explain the graphics if Barnett can not muster up any response, beyond don't debate.

On M*A*S*H, I guess you can insult Radar, why though?
 
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Joe Barnett

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Tom we are an appendage to every advocacy movement out there for vaping, if the idea might help this industry, we pick it up and run with it. To any thing else you have bought up I yes my romance with military history of colonial nature. My service to the country and status as a disabled vet proves my dedication to it. You ask for justification.... simple if fired up 4700 move people to get active, plain and simple. a different marketing approach, the ones the don't like it will get active with the more PC imaged groups. Some like yourself will even revile us, mistaking us as some form of hostile democracy hating radicals .... we all love this country and are trying to participate in the representative democracy by getting people up and on their feet. I respect your passion, I don't agree with your tactics but if this gathers more to be active in the process going on.... great job.
 

KatyLoo

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I have no interest in joining an organization called Vaping Militia. To me it denotes force and violence - no way to solve a problem. I have no idea who is in the majority here but either way they have alienated a substantial number people who are actually on the same side.
 

kelli

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oh fuck it, this whole thread has devolved into pure unbridled human ugliness.

why can't you people just talk to each other rationally without being nasty and shitty? or making snide, insipid comments belittling those who don't agree with yourselves? are we not all on the same side of something here? this is just ridiculous and embarrassing.

well that certainly made a difference didn't it? not. thanks for trying anyhoo. ;)
 

Joe Barnett

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I have no interest in joining an organization called Vaping Militia. To me it denotes force and violence - no way to solve a problem. I have no idea who is in the majority here but either way they have alienated a substantial number people who are actually on the same side.
I am sorry you feel that way, I do hope you do stay active in the efforts tho
 

Warhawk-AVG

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To me a militia is a group of people standing against tyranny...in whatever form it comes (the moniker vaping mafia...now that kind of makes me think of "Fat Tony" and the "For you wanna me whack this guy" kinda mentality...but who cares...someone has to take a stand for vaping...otherwise the government due to ignorance and fear will run roughshod over our freedom from cigarettes.

4983622660_cb62a609e5_z.jpg
 

tombaker

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Tom we are an appendage to every advocacy movement out there for vaping, if the idea might help this industry, we pick it up and run with it. To any thing else you have bought up I yes my romance with military history of colonial nature. My service to the country and status as a disabled vet proves my dedication to it. You ask for justification.... simple if fired up 4700 move people to get active, plain and simple. a different marketing approach, the ones the don't like it will get active with the more PC imaged groups. Some like yourself will even revile us, mistaking us as some form of hostile democracy hating radicals .... we all love this country and are trying to participate in the representative democracy by getting people up and on their feet. I respect your passion, I don't agree with your tactics but if this gathers more to be active in the process going on.... great job.
Joe Barnett: Let's just be straight, and on the merits.
A. I did not ask you for any justification, none. You know better. I also responded clearly that I think the local ban and state issues, are significant, and that people do need to work on them. There is absolute need and justification to work to stop agressive legislation. (If they want to ban it in local libraries, around under-18 year old schools, or at that level, its not a fight worth fighting, slippery slope is often BS)
B. You interest in colonial military history was used to explain the Militia moniker, fine. I and others gave you feedback on that. I asked you specifically about the banners and emblems, which you should be able to address. Especially because you are not considering it Politically Correct, or at least less PC than others. Makes you usage of Germanic symbols more confusing because the Germans were on the other side, they were with King George. 30,000 Hessian "mercenaries" too, and they were part of the rational of and written in the Declaration of Independence. Yet you use the Coat of Arms. What is up with that?
C. I am a member of the VM Facebook group, and not a member of the Vaping Militia, there are HS students with 5000+ friends on facebook too. You have said that your group of members is about 500. 499 more than me, and more significant by far in ability, with 500. But I am a detail person, so, 500ish by your count. I did not ask you for justification of the need or goals of your group.
D. Don't play the victim card on me, with fabrication that I revile you and think you are a form of Democracy hating radicals. I have expressed at the start of this thread, the way that Militia is used in the 21st century, not the end of of the 18th. I talked about how it would be perceived by city councils, on the name Militia itself. The title of the book, not even the cover, ears alone.
E. We agree in our Republic, that Democracy is carried by electing representatives of the people, who can be lobbied and given feedback to act in the interests and wants of the people. What I began with, is the name of Militia, is a liability in convincing those representatives to act in ways Vapers want. I think, vote them out, is a not timely solution. If I have a Rose, and its called "Shit" its gonna smell the same way, but Nobody is going to sniff it, or buy it. That's just reality.

So I have again responded to all of your points, and responded in detail to RynoSerious.

Please respond to my questions, because the lack of understanding on them, is my confusion. I have no interest in creating definition because of my lack of understanding. I got to this place because your founders, sought it, and made the mistakes about me, that I have clarified.

Please clarify the following. You should be able to explain this, or is screwing around with me, so salivary that you want to continue? The message of the the Vaping Militia images and graphics.

1. Why did you choose to use on your original (retro) Banners and Pins to have a Skull (totenkopf) and a gun target sight? What is the point of the Skull? The only large and formal usage of a military or militia using that symbol was the SS. (I know, fuck me, why did you make me look at the pins you are selling on your website). Explain your choice of imagery on the first revision of your logos.
Is the skull a warning, a promotion, meant to strike fear? Whats the reason for the Skull and Gun sight?????

2. Why are you using the Germanic Eagle (Coat of Arms) on your current logo. What is it you want to convey?
What should your audience think when they see it?
Why that image instead of using the United States of America's Bald Eagle?
You understand the historical Military usage of that image? And it undeniable you are using THAT eagle. Why?
Why not change it, if you did not know its history?
Why not use the Bald Eagle of these United States?
So why do you think its going to go away? When a reporter see it, are you banking they have no knowledge of history?

Thanks in Advance.
 
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Roger Schaeffer

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Back in the 60's The term Underground was used by some controversial groups. Funny this thread pops up here-but its all Good-Times Change and we need some change to the Political and Journalistic Atmosphere surrounding Electronic Ciggattes presently. So I support the Militia-SAFATA-VistaTruth-The American Vaping Assc. to name some.



The Weather Underground Organization (WUO), commonly known as the Weather Underground, was an American radical left organization founded on the Ann Arbor campus of the University of Michigan. Originally called Weatherman, the group became known colloquially as the Weathermen. Weatherman organized in 1969 as a faction of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS)[2] composed for the most part of the national office leadership of SDS and their supporters. Their goal was to create a clandestine revolutionary party for the overthrow of the U.S. government.[3]

With revolutionary positions characterized by Black power and opposition to the Vietnam War,[2] the group conducted a campaign of bombings through the mid-1970s and took part in actions such as the jailbreak of Dr. Timothy Leary. The "Days of Rage", their first public demonstration on October 8, 1969, was a riot in Chicago timed to coincide with the trial of the Chicago Seven. In 1970, the group issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, under the name "Weather Underground Organization".[4]

The bombing attacks mostly targeted government buildings, along with several banks. Most were preceded by evacuation warnings, along with communiqués identifying the particular matter that the attack was intended to protest. No persons were killed in any of their acts of property destruction, although three members of the group were killed in the Greenwich Village townhouse explosion. Former members of the group robbed a Brink's armored car in 1981, which resulted in the deaths of three people including Waverly Brown, the first black police officer on the Nyack police force.[citation needed]

For the bombing of the United States Capitol on March 1, 1971, they issued a communiqué saying that it was "in protest of the U.S. invasion of Laos". For the bombing ofthe Pentagon on May 19, 1972, they stated that it was "in retaliation for the U.S. bombing raid in Hanoi". For the January 29, 1975 bombing of the United States Department of State building, they stated that it was "in response to the escalation in Vietnam".[4]

The Weathermen grew out of the Revolutionary Youth Movement (RYM) faction of SDS. It took its name from Bob Dylan's lyric, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows", from the song "Subterranean Homesick Blues" (1965). "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows", was the title of aposition paper that they distributed at an SDS convention in Chicago on June 18, 1969. This founding document called for a "white fighting force" to be allied with the "Black Liberation Movement" and other radical movements[5] to achieve "the destruction of U.S. imperialism and achieve a classless world: world communism".[6]

The Weathermen began to disintegrate after the United States reached a peace accord in Vietnam in 1973,[citation needed] after which the New Left declined in influence. By 1977, the organization was defunct.
 

tombaker

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...Funny this thread pops up here-but its all Good----Times Change and we need some change to the Political and Journalistic Atmosphere surrounding Electronic Ciggattes presently. So I support the Militia-SAFATA-VistaTruth-The American Vaping Assc. to name some......
Alright, but lets hear from them, Joe Barnett, Nachtnoir, Truckcentral and the lesserman, are able to clarify.
 

RynoSerious

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@tombaker
I have to agree with you on the local and state bans are what we have to worry about as far as consumers are concerned.. After all it is the militias organization that assisted our advocacy group in the state of georgia to get fulton county (one of the top 6 counties in the state) to classify eciggs as a vapor product and not as tobacco. (Thus preventing them as ever being taxed as tobacco products). The state of georgia is following suit now. And THIS was a result of the VMs assistance in getting the word out. (As this is what it is for)

Your argument over the images of the logo are plain and simply silly. It appears to me that you feel the need to associate the VM with nazi germany. Repeatedly.

Whats funny is even the swastika was a religious symbol a long time prior to the third reichs use..

Here is a link for your investigation.. (But i think you know this as i take it you are very well educated in this topic)
http://altreligion.about.com/od/symbols/a/Swastika.htm


For whatever reason, i feel as though your attempting to discredit an organization with false accusations, and projections of what YOU think the symbols mean. Because in the end.. History did not begin with nazi germany. And we all saw what became of it.

A picture is a picture.. And assumptions are assumptions.. And when you lay a foundation of falsehoods, and start to build a house upon it (the argument). You never even get off the ground, with out sinking.
 

RynoSerious

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@tombaker said "After the attacks, I went and looked, and sure enough, its the insignia of the Third Riech. So yah, I think Barnett is a off-base on knowing history, which is what he said was the explanation of the Militia name during his interviews.on history. "

I see vast difference in the VMs logo and the nazi symbolism..

As Germany used a similar coat of arms, right up until 1935 when the nazis took it over and changed the symbol to the second image.. which means, this particular image was in use during the weimar republic. ( or the FIRST REICH, IF YOU WILL)


But again. You know this.. Because you are well versed in this history..

Why would you project bullshit and false hoods. (Or a straight out lie) and attempt to associate/project this bullshit..


GERMANY WAS A " republic" during this particular period in history. (The weimar republic) hence why it is the weimar coat of arms..

Just like us right here in the good old USA. Well, according to the history books..


Let me drop another little FACT on this argument.

"By reason of a decision of the Reich's Government I hereby announce, that the Imperial coat of arms on a gold-yellow shield shows the one headed black eagle, the head turned to the right, the wings open but with closed feathering, beak, tongue and claws in red color. If the Reich's Eagle is shown without a frame, the same charge and colors as those of the eagle of the Reich's coat of arms are to be used, but the tops of the feathers are directed outside. The patterns kept by the Federal Ministry of the Interior are decisive for the heraldic design. The artistic design may be varied for each special purpose."

— President Ebert; Minister of the Interior, Koch, Announcement concerning the federal coat of arms and the imperial eagle of November 11, 1919[4]


That quotation was from the president at the time denoting the use of this symbol, as being in color.. And in a certain configuration..



Why would you say it was the symbol of the third reich, when in your first statement it was the germanic coat of arms?
*drops mic, walks away*
 

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