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Very Alarming News Dr. Farsalinos found that diacetyl was in 74% of the e-liquids that were tested.

Mr.Mann

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Oh bullshit %74 ,there'd be diabetics falling out everywhere,and I know cause I'm a diabetic.Within one day that shit puts my sugar through the roof.


It wasn't 74% of ALL flavors, it was 74% of the flavors tested -- obviously, since it's not like they could buy every flavor. But the big thing to note here is that this study was clearly targeted toward what they suspected to have these properties -- likely if a liquid was described as "rich," "custard," "buttery," etc. So what that means is they went on a bit of a scavenger hunt of sorts by looking at the descriptions of liquids, or known qualities of liquids that seem like they may have these issues. [This is my interpretation of what Dr.F has said about how they decided on what flavors to mystery shop.]

I did donate to that study and have spoken to Dr.F about it on ECF. Although I differ with him about a few things regarding this study, it is what it is. I do think they went into this knowing good and well that they were not going to release names, though they said in their spiel on Indiegogo that:
  • The study and all details will be published in an international medical journal.
I don't see how the names of vendors and the specific liquids are not a detail. If anything, it is a major component, and barely a "detail." But, I still support Dr.F, I just wish they would've been more up front about whether we would actually see the test (or have to pay again), and whether we would be able to see that which was tested.

Paid for by vapers you.
 
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soulshine

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Man I'm gonna say this one more time and then I'm done because this feels like all the "fake outrage" about the FDA comments. Dr F didn't release the names because it would have ruined the businesses of people who honestly didn't know. Because you donated a few bucks to it, you feel that entitles you to a witch hunt? Has vapers dying of popcorn lung become a pandemic that needs to be stopped this very second? No, it hasn't. You, yourself stated....WE ALL KNEW. Do you think that's deterred the sales of Capella Custard V1 (V2 is available now but they still have V1 for sale so there must be a demand for it). If YOU don't want to be exposed to it, then go to other flavor profiles. Contact the companies that you buy juice from and ask for their testing results. Hold THEM accountable. If you don't like the fact that Dr F has ethics, don't donate to the next study. But don't cry about not being able to go on a witch hunt. Not cool. Not caring so much about if I offended anybody with this post quite frankly. Ok....let's keep beating the dead horse....aaaaaaaaaand GO......
 
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maddvaper

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Soulshine I'm 100 percent with you on this one.Either go buy a pack of smokes or S.T.F.U.
 

soulshine

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I'm not telling anybody to STFU man. That's not my point. I'm all for people expressing their opinions. My point is that we all knew about diacetyl. Some seem to feel like Dr F did harm with the study when he didn't. All he did was tell us what we already knew. Now it's "official" so they can't be in denial about it anymore. Some, like MrMann seem to want all the names and juice names so they can go on crusades about these vendors. Now some vendors SHOULD be crucified and that will come out. Listen to ClickBang from Tuesday night. But from what I understand most of those vendors were new to the industry and didn't realize the seriousness of the issue. Dr F just simply informed all the vendors and most have already started reformulating juices and some just plain discontinuing the ones that they can't (or aren't worth) reformulating. My point was that this is just something for most people to jump in on yet another vape drama. I'm not saying it's "no big deal"...but people are screaming like the sky is falling when in reality..all they gotta do is find a new flavor profile of juices to vape. It's not like there aren't a GAZILLION on the market. Most of us smoked for a LONG time...one flavor...allllllllllllll day everyday. Does it mean you lose a few flavor options? Yeah. NO BIG DEAL. Hell there are a few VERY smart people already among us like HIC that are already figuring ways around it. It's just the sky can't fall every week. I'm not the most positive person in the world..but even I REFUSE to allow that to happen. That's all.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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What truly needs to happen is for companies to either only make juice with flavorings that are confirmed to be free of diacetyl, or for them to not make explicit claims that their juice is 100% diacetyl free. That is that.

My current supplier makes said claim, and I'm doubting the truth of that now, wether it's naivety on their part, or a blatant lie. That is all, and that is a matter of ethics. If a flavoring has it, or the company providing it won't disclose it's ingredients, you don't use it, unless you want to include a disclaimer in the description, such as a tank cracker warning. Obviously, diacetyl is a way bigger issue than a cracked tank, but it's no different.

It's obvious that it's out there, and I just expect at the least, for companies to not make false claims. That is all. It's just honesty and ethics, but that's apparently too much to ask. Unfortunately as vapers, we can't test these things. My multimeter can tell me almost everything I need to know regarding my gear, and thus safety, but it has no diacetyl probe insert, so for now I'm in the dark. I accept that, and I plan on entering the DIY world soon, as it appears that there are a couple companies who have lines that cater towards us.

The sky is not falling. And ultimately we are choosing to vape, and unfortunately now choosing to take a potential risk.
 

Mr.Mann

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Man I'm gonna say this one more time and then I'm done because this feels like all the "fake outrage" about the FDA comments. Dr F didn't release the names because it would have ruined the businesses of people who honestly didn't know. Because you donated a few bucks to it, you feel that entitles you to a witch hunt? Has vapers dying of popcorn lung become a pandemic that needs to be stopped this very second? No, it hasn't. You, yourself stated....WE ALL KNEW. Do you think that's deterred the sales of Capella Custard V1 (V2 is available now but they still have V1 for sale so there must be a demand for it). If YOU don't want to be exposed to it, then go to other flavor profiles. Contact the companies that you buy juice from and ask for their testing results. Hold THEM accountable. If you don't like the fact that Dr F has ethics, don't donate to the next study. But don't cry about not being able to go on a witch hunt. Not cool. Not caring so much about if I offended anybody with this post quite frankly. Ok....let's keep beating the dead horse....aaaaaaaaaand GO......

Uh, huh?

Witch hunt? Which?! How is wanting to know if I am vaping one of the liquids tested a witch hunt? Why does it have to be that = When we donated to a cause that promised "all details" will be revealed, but withheld data, I don't see how bringing that up is a problem. I have said all this to Dr.F too. Crowd funding opens one up to what the crowd has to say. I am in that crowd.

Now, not all the liquids tested were just "custards"! So the point of it all is that we thought we knew which liquids were the problematic, or at the very least, liquids in concern. It turns out that the lay person may not know exactly which liquids are going to carry these properties, but Dr.F and his team can pick 7+ out of 10.

And BTW, in his study on the Cytotoixicity of tobacco eliquids, he named which liquids tested were cytotoxic and those that were not. I used that study -- his previous study -- as my as my archetype for how the next study would be conducted. Dr.F answered me as to why the two are different in his mind, but I wonder about the vendor that "failed" his test that he named outright (in that previous study). That vendor went on about their business and is doing fine -- that's how they felt. The same woudl've happened here IMO (but in the previous study it is was basically one vendor that that got named, along with their eliquid names, and they didn't have the cover of others in its company -- it was almost like singling out one vendor). As far as I am concerned, this is not a witch hunt, this is wanting transparency like in that previous study -- oh, and I had those liquids that failed the test from that previous study! So I appreciated knowing. And the same would've applied here too.

I get why some think we should not know, but you've got to be kidding yourself if you think there is no merit for us that want to know.

And I still support Dr.F, but I don't have to agree 100% with whom I support.
 
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Mr.Mann

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I'm not telling anybody to STFU man. That's not my point. I'm all for people expressing their opinions. My point is that we all knew about diacetyl. Some seem to feel like Dr F did harm with the study when he didn't. All he did was tell us what we already knew. Now it's "official" so they can't be in denial about it anymore. Some, like MrMann seem to want all the names and juice names so they can go on crusades about these vendors. Now some vendors SHOULD be crucified and that will come out. Listen to ClickBang from Tuesday night. But from what I understand most of those vendors were new to the industry and didn't realize the seriousness of the issue. Dr F just simply informed all the vendors and most have already started reformulating juices and some just plain discontinuing the ones that they can't (or aren't worth) reformulating. My point was that this is just something for most people to jump in on yet another vape drama. I'm not saying it's "no big deal"...but people are screaming like the sky is falling when in reality..all they gotta do is find a new flavor profile of juices to vape. It's not like there aren't a GAZILLION on the market. Most of us smoked for a LONG time...one flavor...allllllllllllll day everyday. Does it mean you lose a few flavor options? Yeah. NO BIG DEAL. Hell there are a few VERY smart people already among us like HIC that are already figuring ways around it. It's just the sky can't fall every week. I'm not the most positive person in the world..but even I REFUSE to allow that to happen. That's all.

I don't know you and you don't know me (even if you think you do). I won't claim to know your intentions, so don't think you "seem" to know mine.
 

soulshine

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I didn't say "just custards" if you read my posts and I'm not gonna argue symantics with you dude. Sorry you feel like you didn't get "your money's worth" from your donation to the study. And sorry that you want to grab the lanterns and pitchforks for these vendors but I'm glad they got the chance to fix their problems. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to give it away because I don't do stuff like that. But if you want to do know ONE of the vendors....GO LISTEN TO CLICKBANG from Tuesday night. If it'll make you feel better to participate in crucifiction of one of the vendors who probably deserves it, Russ served it up on a platter. And it's a BIGGIE. Which is interesting because it's gonna force quite a few hypocrites to make a reeeeeeeeal choice in how important this issue really is to them as vapers. Now I'm done with this...REALLY.
 

Mr.Mann

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I didn't say "just custards" if you read my posts and I'm not gonna argue symantics with you dude. Sorry you feel like you didn't get "your money's worth" from your donation to the study. And sorry that you want to grab the lanterns and pitchforks for these vendors but I'm glad they got the chance to fix their problems. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to give it away because I don't do stuff like that. But if you want to do know ONE of the vendors....GO LISTEN TO CLICKBANG from Tuesday night. If it'll make you feel better to participate in crucifiction of one of the vendors who probably deserves it, Russ served it up on a platter. And it's a BIGGIE. Which is interesting because it's gonna force quite a few hypocrites to make a reeeeeeeeal choice in how important this issue really is to them as vapers. Now I'm done with this...REALLY.


Relax and learn to converse as if you are an adult. No pitchforks. No lanterns. Just a vaper with liquid and mods. What are you talking about? Jesus you are tripping off of what exactly? LOL. Too funny.

And no, you didn't say "just custards" but you did say to choose another profile as if there is only ONE profile that is problematic. Newsflash: there is more than ONE "profile" here that came back as problematic..

I still support Dr.F and his team.
 

cherrycakes

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I didn't say "just custards" if you read my posts and I'm not gonna argue symantics with you dude. Sorry you feel like you didn't get "your money's worth" from your donation to the study. And sorry that you want to grab the lanterns and pitchforks for these vendors but I'm glad they got the chance to fix their problems. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to give it away because I don't do stuff like that. But if you want to do know ONE of the vendors....GO LISTEN TO CLICKBANG from Tuesday night. If it'll make you feel better to participate in crucifiction of one of the vendors who probably deserves it, Russ served it up on a platter. And it's a BIGGIE. Which is interesting because it's gonna force quite a few hypocrites to make a reeeeeeeeal choice in how important this issue really is to them as vapers. Now I'm done with this...REALLY.


We don't want to attack anyone
We just want to know personally what is going in our body
 

AmandaD

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We don't want to attack anyone
We just want to know personally what is going in our body

And unfortunately even IF all the juice you vape has diacetyl in it, you still won't know 'what's going on in your body' because the correlations have not become hypotheses for specific studies. At this point is is not know if it is in fact diacetyl that causes these (very rare) cases of popcorn lung.
 

glassgrl

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Most if not all of the flavoring manufacturers don't produce their products for us vapers. We were not (and probably still aren't) their main customers or money makers. When I started DIY, it was like they didn't even want to know that you were using their flavorings for e-liquids. They didn't have clue one about inhalation risks on that grand a scale. TFAs and FAs compliance and embracing the vapor culture is very recent. We're the guinea pigs here and there's going to be growing pains. There may be e-liquid vendors out there who know and just don't give a shit about what is in the flavorings, but I think for the most part it's just ignorance that they don't KNOW and don't have the funding to find out the flavorings they buy are not good for inhalation.

We're guinea pigs, like it or not. The alternative sucks. Growing pains? Big time. I agree with @soulshine except for we didn't all know. Neither did the vendors. Neither did Dr. F until recently. I believe he is a huge advocate for us and that may include things we don't want to hear.
 

soulshine

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Thank you glassgrl and let me clarify that one statement. When I say "we knew"....it's been talked about and speculated about since 2009...that's what I meant. And it is in fact why Dr F did the study and knew just right where to look...LOL
 

Mr.Mann

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Well, since I have been interested in this issue for a while, I have had some evolving positions. I am now basically on the side that says that we can't ever, with certainty, know what exacty is in what we vape -- and I am okay with that. But I do believe, did believe, and will believe that vendors ought not put up bold disclaimers on their site saying their liquids is bonafied "free" of something unless they are certain (and not just off the words of another site!). That is the catch here. There is no reason to mention it at all if one is not certain. Oh, and I never stopped supporting Vaperite when they explicitly said they sold liquids that contained diacetyl -- and I did try some too (just briefly. hehe).

p.s. Vaperite has recently stopped selling those liquids. It mattered very little to me because I knew that they were trying to inform the customer.
 

RyGon

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And unfortunately even IF all the juice you vape has diacetyl in it, you still won't know 'what's going on in your body' because the correlations have not become hypotheses for specific studies. At this point is is not know if it is in fact diacetyl that causes these (very rare) cases of popcorn lung.
Is this true, not knowing about the cause of "popcorn lung"? From what I read there were hundreds of cases within that industry and results had been replicated with diacetyl inhalation on animals.

For the effects of flavored e-juice on the body I was really encouraged by the live cell testing they were doing in the clearstream project. I thought that was a good step in the right direction.
 

AmandaD

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Is this true, not knowing about the cause of "popcorn lung"? From what I read there were hundreds of cases within that industry and results had been replicated with diacetyl inhalation on animals.

For the effects of flavored e-juice on the body I was really encouraged by the live cell testing they were doing in the clearstream project. I thought that was a good step in the right direction.

Let me find some links - no, I don't think that is true.
 

cherrycakes

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And unfortunately even IF all the juice you vape has diacetyl in it, you still won't know 'what's going on in your body' because the correlations have not become hypotheses for specific studies. At this point is is not know if it is in fact diacetyl that causes these (very rare) cases of popcorn lung.

I said what's going in my body
not what's going on in my body
but thanks

If someone put a diabetic snack food in grocery stores
stating that there was no sugar in it
and then we find out that there was sugar in it
they could be sued for false advertising, no?
 

AmandaD

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I said what's going in my body
not what's going on in my body
but thanks

If someone put a diabetic snack food in grocery stores
stating that there was no sugar in it
and then we find out that there was sugar in it
they could be sued for false advertising, no?

I don't disagree with that at all. Saying something is free of something and finding it is not is of course wrong.

Rygon, here is the abstract I was referring to:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24635357

I think the point is that we don't here about cigarette smokers getting this disease, which is where there's some confusion.
 

glassgrl

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That's a good point @Mr.Mann. The fact that some of the flavor houses get their supplies from other manufacturers notwithstanding, so even they didn't know for sure, why be all schmear campaign about it? I still agree that this has the aroma of a witch hunt. Do we know for sure that Dr. F has or hasn't contacted these vendors to advise them of these scientific results? We don't. I'm sure we'd all like to know, and on the DIY end, I would LOVE to know. That would involve proprietary recipes (which I'm not interested in), I don't think that's going to happen.
 

RyGon

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Mr.Mann

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Is this true, not knowing about the cause of "popcorn lung"? From what I read there were hundreds of cases within that industry and results had been replicated with diacetyl inhalation on animals.

For the effects of flavored e-juice on the body I was really encouraged by the live cell testing they were doing in the clearstream project. I thought that was a good step in the right direction.

They, at best, are only able to link it to certain things, but it hasn't exactly been ruled the cause. There have
I said what's going in my body
not what's going on in my body
but thanks

If someone put a diabetic snack food in grocery stores
stating that there was no sugar in it
and then we find out that there was sugar in it
they could be sued for false advertising, no?


Great analogy.

Business 101. At the very least, instead of a bold claim, make a disclaimer: we are not certain if our liquids contain any diacetyl, though we have been told by are flavor suppliers that the flavors they make, that we use, are diacetyl free. But this is not a claim we can make.

Easy breezy.
 

Mr.Mann

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That's a good point @Mr.Mann. The fact that some of the flavor houses get their supplies from other manufacturers notwithstanding, so even they didn't know for sure, why be all schmear campaign about it? I still agree that this has the aroma of a witch hunt. Do we know for sure that Dr. F has or hasn't contacted these vendors to advise them of these scientific results? We don't. I'm sure we'd all like to know, and on the DIY end, I would LOVE to know. That would involve proprietary recipes (which I'm not interested in), I don't think that's going to happen.

Hell, the more I DIY the more I don't care at all. Which is crazy to me. But, DIYing is just too fun right now for me to be overly pressed. The main reason is because I am certain that when I DIY I am sailing on my own! (Though I have to read ingredient lists -- like whether a flavor contains added sugar or not -- and expect the list to be legit!)

I guess my biggest reason for wanting to know was so that I could *try* and notice the diacetyl note, even when in a liquid that didn't seem all that buttery, custard-y, rich or whatever -- like in certain fruit vapes that apparently do contain it. I just like having a better understanding -- that's all. But then again, maybe the study will reveal all of that? Like how to notice it??? Don't know.
 

AmandaD

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Thanks AmandaD, quid pro quo here is the animal study I saw. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2669658/

Yup, forgot about that one! But as that study was conducted on mice and hasn't been replicated in humans (by which I mean, for instance, studied in smokers), it doesn't necessarily mean that the levels in juice will cause this.

I suppose all I'm trying to say is that I think it's something to be aware of, as there is a choice which juice you can use (or even vape unflavored for extra safety - if that's even safe). But the worst case is that we have hysteria and the FDA shuts down the ejuice industry altogether. Of course if someone chose to go back to smoking, they would be vaping not only diacetyl but a gazillion other chemicals as well ;)
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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I said what's going in my body
not what's going on in my body
but thanks

If someone put a diabetic snack food in grocery stores
stating that there was no sugar in it
and then we find out that there was sugar in it
they could be sued for false advertising, no?
A quick off topic, the irony of what you mention on diabetic snacks is that they substitute sugar for Maltitol and Maltitol Syrup, which happens to be as high on the glycemic index as sugars, and thus spikes blood sugar and messes with insulin in a similar way. I'm not diabetic, just a health nut, and that perplexed me. It will give you the runs, too, lol.

@soulshine , great song by the way wether performed by the Allman Brothers, Gov't Mule, or my favorite and the meaning of my handle, The Black Crowes. On topic, As far as this vendor who was exposed, could you please name them. I will seek it out if I have to, but this is not defamation, but rather providing info to this wonderful community that could help our safety. That's more important in my opinion, and I'd guess I'm not the only one who'd like to just know. They deserve to be named, it's a matter of safety.

If someone else has this knowledge, please do share. Not a personal attack, I'm not getting into this thread to argue, I just think it's the proper thing to do to name them, especially if as per your post, the info is out there. You will be doing good, not harm, and fuck a vendor who is knowingly using these irresponsible practices. Thanks in advance! :)
 

HeadInClouds

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Unfortunately as vapers, we can't test these things. My multimeter can tell me almost everything I need to know regarding my gear, and thus safety, but it has no diacetyl probe insert, so for now I'm in the dark.

You do not need to stay in the dark, you know. You CAN learn to detect diacetyl/subs yourself in a couple of days, if you want to. Homebrewers (beer and wine) learn how, and so can you. It's actually fun!

For any DIY'er who is interested and has some TFA flavors already (or is willing to buy them for some experiments), give it a try:

Start with TFA Vanilla Swirl and TFA Vanilla Custard. Vanilla Swirl is the same formula as Vanilla Custard, but with the custard note ingredients removed. First lick 1-2 drops of Vanilla Swirl flavoring (not diluted) off your finger and squish it around the roof of your mouth with your tongue while you breathe in and out through your nose. Take your time. Notice how it tastes and smells. Then do the same thing with Vanilla Custard. Do them in that order; no need to wait or clean your mouth out before you do the second one. You will notice the difference, for sure. Brush your teeth, have a meal, come back later.... Open both bottles without checking the labels and sniff. You should be able to identify by sniffing which one has the diacetyl subs. If not, repeat the taste test and try again. You'll get it. When you do, move on to harder tests:

Click here to open the spec sheet on TFA's website. Grab a random TFA flavor and smell it. (Taste if you want.) Compare it to Vanilla Custard and Vanilla Swirl. Do you detect that distinctive diacetyl scent in your random flavor, the same note as in Vanilla Custard? On the website's spec sheet, click 'list' to the right of that flavor name. Look for acetoin and acetylpropionyl. See how many you can get right. Practice makes it easier. Make a note of which ones you got right and wrong. You may miss some with smaller amounts of the chemicals. Repeat the test in the previous paragraph, then re-try the ones you missed. Most people can get nearly all of them right after a round or two. Do not be surprised if you occasionally detect it in a flavor that the spec sheet says has none. Check the spec sheet again in a month or two; you're probably right. This has happened to me a few times.

You can do all of those tests in vape version instead of tasting, but it takes more time and of course you'll be inhaling diacetyl/subs.

If you've gotten to here, you probably want to avoid diacetyl/subs. If so, pick a few flavorings you have that you can detect diacetyl in. Buy the nearest flavoring that FlavourArt makes or that TFA makes without custard notes. When it comes, compare it to your old version. By now you should be able to tell them apart with a sniff, or a taste, or a vape. So now you're a diacetyl-detector.

Check other flavorings, especially Capella (anything not 'version 2) and Flavor West (especially caramel, butterscotch, toffee, creamy, and bakery flavors) and Nature's Flavors Organics. You will detect diacetyl in many. Give 'em the sniff taste. Taste a drop. If you're unsure, compare it to a similar flavor you've correctly identified before.

Go to the DIY area here and start a new thread, something like "my diacetyl-detection experiments" - and tell us how it went! I'd love to hear all about it, and we can all swap notes.

If you want to be a diacetyl-super-detector, you can go further. You can compute your personal threshold of diacetyl detection by purposely adding a known diacetyl amount to a custard-note-free flavoring, but that's a post for some other day, if anyone (as geeky as I am) is interested.
 

Cloudy Peak Vapes

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@HeadInClouds thank you for that info. I am not yet DIY'ing, but have been planning on it and this might be the final kick in the ass I needed. I truly think I can drop to 0 nic at this point, and it may sounds stupid, but messing with nicotine was my main concern in DIY. I just placed a large order from Vista Vapors, and still have a good bit of liquid left, so I have to wait a bit no matter what. I will be keeping this all in mind and thank you again for that... I would've had no clue at all what I was looking for in taste.

Please oh please don't be Vista that is the exposed vendor, they claim to be 100% diacetyl free! but now I know that is to be taken at best with a grain of salt. I vape a ton of dessert, bakery, candy, and fruit flavors, so I'm probably fucked no matter what. In fact butterscotch currently is one of my favorites. I have birthday cake in one of my kayfuns ATM, probably been inhaling some diacetyl.
 

glassgrl

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Hell, the more I DIY the more I don't care at all. Which is crazy to me. But, DIYing is just too fun right now for me to be overly pressed. The main reason is because I am certain that when I DIY I am sailing on my own! (Though I have to read ingredient lists -- like whether a flavor contains added sugar or not -- and expect the list to be legit!)

I guess my biggest reason for wanting to know was so that I could *try* and notice the diacetyl note, even when in a liquid that didn't seem all that buttery, custard-y, rich or whatever -- like in certain fruit vapes that apparently do contain it. I just like having a better understanding -- that's all. But then again, maybe the study will reveal all of that? Like how to notice it??? Don't know.

Yeah, its the 'whatever' part that gets me too. The buttery notes of diacetyl in custards, vanillas, etc., is easy for me. It gives me vapors tongue big time so it's not hard to know it's there. Fruits? What?!? Not so easy there is it? I know you like to get to the bottom of things from reading your posts on the other board. Maybe it's not so much as not caring at all but being the captain of your own ship. KWIM?
 

Mr.Mann

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Yeah, its the 'whatever' part that gets me too. The buttery notes of diacetyl in custards, vanillas, etc., is easy for me. It gives me vapors tongue big time so it's not hard to know it's there. Fruits? What?!? Not so easy there is it? I know you like to get to the bottom of things from reading your posts on the other board. Maybe it's not so much as not caring at all but being the captain of your own ship. KWIM?


Hey, I like how you flipped that! Captain of our own ship! Nice. And yes, I do want to get to the bottom of things -- if possible. Sometimes I find out that there is no bottom, or that the bottom is where I've been the whole time, in which case I rethink my position. I have had to rethink my position often and have no problem doing so.

Yeah, exactly! When Dr.F broke it down to me about blueberries (and other fruits) I was completely dumbfounded. I never thought it was that far reaching. Welp, I do like fruit vapes -- a lot! So, some will vape custard if they wish and I am gonna go back to my fruit vapes. Will it be in there? Maybe. Probably? At this point, I just care that vaping will be there for others.
 

AmandaD

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Hey, I like how you flipped that! Captain of our own ship! Nice. And yes, I do want to get to the bottom of things -- if possible. Sometimes I find out that there is no bottom, or that the bottom is where I've been the whole time, in which case I rethink my position. I have had to rethink my position often and have no problem doing so.

Yeah, exactly! When Dr.F broke it down to me about blueberries (and other fruits) I was completely dumbfounded. I never thought it was that far reaching. Welp, I do like fruit vapes -- a lot! So, some will vape custard if they wish and I am gonna go back to my fruit vapes. Will it be in there? I just care, now, that vaping will be here.

Even if it is, your lungs may be healthier two years from now than they were when you were smoking.......LOL

At least that's what I choose to believe (can't stand that diacetyl taste in any event - but not sure I can taste it in fruit hmmm...)
 

BigNasty

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Even if it is, your lungs may be healthier two years from now than they were when you were smoking.......LOL

At least that's what I choose to believe (can't stand that diacetyl taste in any event - but not sure I can taste it in fruit hmmm...)

Hmm what worries me is he found diaceytl in NET, I guess I am going to have to research what flavors I use a bit more closely.
 

AmandaD

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Hmm what worries me is he found diaceytl in NET, I guess I am going to have to research what flavors I use a bit more closely.

Because it's in tobacco, which is why the levels are higher in cigarette smokers - see where I'm going with this? LOL
 

Mr.Mann

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OK I had a special ed moment.

His previous study (that I liked to in post #56) may be worth a read too if you haven't read it (as it's mostly about natural tobacco in eliquid). I really like that previous study and I couldn't believe that I had those same liquids they tested!
 

BigNasty

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His previous study (that I liked to in post #56) may be worth a read too if you haven't read it (as it's mostly about natural tobacco in eliquid). I really like that previous study and I couldn't believe that I had those same liquids they tested!
Thats what I am saying.
It is making me look skewed at my flavor arsenal debating tossing or pouring out a good chunk of them.


didya know about this one? http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ecc3130c-2894-478e-b525-0228b5b82916
That's about actually eating it; I've never found an answer concerning inhalation.
HOLY fucking shit...that would explain metric dump truck loads about some of the people I worked with that ate and burnt microwave popcorn like it was a religion.

But wait it is safe the FDA said so.
 

Mr.Mann

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Thats what I am saying.
It is making me look skewed at my flavor arsenal debating tossing or pouring out a good chunk of them.

It's tough. I still vacillate on it. But I will tell you that I dialed back my consumption of natural tobacco liquids a lot. Now I just vape them sometimes, not all the time like I once did!
 

BigNasty

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ECF Refugee
More worried about those secret commie super chemicals they keep producing. Somehow I think they are living in a Marvel comic book world where chemical x and gama rays makes you super human instead of super dead.

Melanin in baby formula, lead in paint on kids toys, lead in milk, nearly lethal amounts of lead and other heavy metals in chicken.. not to mention the tens of thousands of pets those little bastards poisoned with their death voodoo pet treats.
 

BigNasty

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That one worries me much more......

Wait, what was I about to say?:D

But nicotine is supposed to help with concentration - so maybe not all is lost!
Could have fooled me I was a mentally foggy disaster when I cut the WTA out of my nic consumption. More than a few people I could barely stand when I smoked almost got stabbed in the eye with a machinist scribe.
 

HeadInClouds

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(can't stand that diacetyl taste in any event - but not sure I can taste it in fruit hmmm...)

Amanda, I'll bet you'd easily detect it in TFA Huckleberry, because you know FA Bilberry (similar flavors, but the FA has no custard notes).
And to you (since diacetyl smells pukey to you) Capella's Peaches and Cream would probably smell like peaches and barf. mmm-mmm...lol!
 

AmandaD

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Yum.....

Guess that's why I moved to mostly FA flavors - lots of others tasted funky to me, and I could never figure out why!
 

Mr.Mann

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Can it be easily detected in natural flavors (foodstuff extracts), or just when it is added? Or, is it a case, like Dr.F and Kurt made it seem, that we just have to know that many natural (actual natural) flavors are most likely going to have it? I *think* i can taste detect it in DIY flavorings, and I can surely detect custard notes, but I have some extracted fruit flavors (Medicine Flower) and I can't taste it at all -- but I bet there's as much possibility as any that it's in there.
 

AmandaD

Platinum Contributor
Member For 4 Years
yup, much like caffeine. That's why I'm a coffee and caffeine fiend. Without them I have the attention span of a gnat...fairly amusing to observers.

Interesting, I was much more hooked on coffee when I smoked. Now I do have one or two cups every morning, but it's not quite such a 'need' thing anymore. Must have been part of my smoking/procrastinating routine!
 

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