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Wire for claptons

Vapin_4_Real

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I am finally going to give in to the clapton hype and start building them. The question I have is about the types of wire to use. I am well stocked on Kanthal 24g-28g. What should I be using for the outer wrap? It seems most are using N80 but a lot use Kanthal as well. I like to vape at around the 40-50 watt range and dont like a hot vape. From what I have seen building 26/32 seems to be the best way to start on these. I am just trying to figure out if I should be ordering 32g N80 or 32g Kanthal for the outer. Or should I be using a different gauge all together? Whatever is gonna give me a nice mid warm vape without getting hot is what I am looking for. Thanks ahead of time for your responses
 

robot zombie

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I personally don't notice much of a difference between kanthal and nichrome for the outer. Some people find it easier to work with. I personally prefer kanthal because its what I'm used to working with. Nichrome is too soft for me. I will say that it looks really nice when pulsed, though :D I also prefer kanthal because I have a source for kanthal D, which is similar in composition to A1 and no lower in quality/safety, but it's significantly cheaper for me to get the higher gauges I prefer as kanthal D in 1000ft+ quantities.

You're gonna have to make a judgement call there. Maybe experiment with both. There is no definitive better or worse... ...there is only what you prefer.

The gauge is gonna make a bigger difference. It's generally a good idea to have a range of gauges in case you want to experiment. It takes some trial and error playing with different gauges and coils to get what you want out a clapton setup. Things don't always go how you think they will.

It bears mentioning that if you vape at around the 40-50 watt range, you will need to up the wattage for the clapton equivalent, heat-wise. The outer wire is almost completely electrically inactive, as it has an extremely high resistance. This means that the core has to do all the heating and it will need some extra power to do that. The outer section is just a big heat-sink. A lot of people, I feel, try claptons not knowing this and are underwhelmed when they choose the wrong wire or run at the wrong power levels.


But anywho... ...gauges. 32g is in the upper spectrum of outer wire thicknesses. It will work just fine, but it limits your building options. It's pretty bulky and probably overkill for a coil you want to run at mid-power. If you're going to run singles, it may work out, but otherwise, the ramp up will be slow and when it does get going it will be hot because all of that extra mass is holding onto a lot of extra heat.

Using thinner outer wire allows you to run at lower wattage for a cooler vape that still ramps-up quickly. Or conversely, it will allow you to run a hot, high-powered vape that doesn't hold onto so much heat that it gets TOO hot. Plus, if you ever decide you want to clapton that 24 or do any kind of fused clapton, you will wish you had much thinner wire than 32g. I can assure you of that much.

I would recommend that you get an assortment of gauges for the outer wire... ...maybe 32g, 34g and 36g. Maybe even 34g, 36g, and 38g instead. 500ft each - that's actually a small amount. It goes fast. The range I use is 34g-42g, but the super-thin wires aren't absolutely necessary and sometimes harder for a beginner to work with. I know that I personally had to work my way up to that. If you want to save a little money and just want to see what its all about, then get 34g and 36g. If you're serious about making claptons and intend to do a lot of experimenting, get every even gauge from 32g to 40g.

Now, if you just want to try claptons and see if its worth the trouble, you may want to hold off on buying the wire to make them and buy some pre-made wire/coils.
 
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Vapin_4_Real

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Wow bro thanks for that writeup. It should even be stickied somewhere. I went ahead and ordered 100ft of 32g, 34g, and 36g Kanthal. It was less than 11 bucks shipped so I decided to just do that instead of buying the premade clapton wire since it was about the same price. Looks like I am going to have some experimenting to do. I almost went ahead and ordered some N80 but I figured I will stick with Kanthal for now since that is all I have ever worked with on all my twisted, parallels, verticals, etc. Cant wait to slap a build on my Velocity. Thanks again for the detailed response. There isnt really an explanation like that anywhere and trust me... i did a LOT of research.
 

robot zombie

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Wow bro thanks for that writeup. It should even be stickied somewhere.
Haha, not this one. I do want to do a comprehensive write-up on the fundamentals of claptons and maybe even coil theory in a broader sense... ...from the basics all the way up to the nitty-gritty intricacies. I have the knowledge of several years of reading, experimenting, and discussing that I want to get out there. If I'm even gonna attempt to compile it at all, then I wanna make sure I do it right. I will probably wind up doing several in the end :p

Truth be told, I really don't mind just doing more specific write-ups on a case-to-case basis in the meantime. I'm one of those people who never stops writing, so it's easy enough for me to consistently put the info out there. I enjoy doing it.

If you want to thank anyone, thank the awesome people on this forum for facilitating the exchange of ideas that makes it all possible. They've made it great place to learn and share what you know. I owe a lot to this forum for that, myself.

So I'm glad that I could help, but it's really not a big deal!
I went ahead and ordered 100ft of 32g, 34g, and 36g Kanthal. It was less than 11 bucks shipped so I decided to just do that instead of buying the premade clapton wire since it was about the same price. Looks like I am going to have some experimenting to do.
Have fun! Hope it goes well for you. I know it can be frustrating at first. I promise its worth the trouble, though! Seeing what the fuss is about is one of those "oooooooohhhhKAY!" moments. You'll be buying more wire soon if that happens though lol. Assuming you waste a minimal amount of wire, you'll get 20-30 attempts, which I suppose is reasonable starting off...

Cant wait to slap a build on my Velocity.
You will like fused claptons a lot in that RDA. People prize them for their fused claptons and aliens. :)

There isnt really an explanation like that anywhere and trust me... i did a LOT of research.
Yeah, that's always been weird to me. It's floating around out there if you talk to the right people. People who clapton all of the time KNOW this shit. I think a lot of people just come to understand it so intuitively as they go on that they don't realize it. Perhaps they just don't consider that other people just beginning to delve into what they do all of the time aren't going to know these things innately. When you get to a certain point in your understanding of something, it's easy to forget that there are people who don't have that knowledge.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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So I'm glad that I could help, but it's really not a big deal!
Well its a big deal to me and I appreciate it.

You will like fused claptons a lot in that RDA. People prize them for their fused claptons and aliens
Yea those fused claptons are all I hear about at vape meets and on the forums. Cant wait to start trying some of these out. Honestly right now my goal is to build something that will surpass my Crowns. I am really loving them but surely it doesnt stop there. And judging by vendors even sending claptons with the prebuilt tanks nowadays I know it can get better.

I think a lot of people just come to understand it so intuitively as they go on that they don't realize it. Perhaps they just don't consider that other people just beginning to delve into what they do all of the time aren't going to know these things innately.
I am telling you I searched for days trying to find out what type of wire and gauge to use for the outer wrap. There just wasnt enough detailed info for me to really understand it. Someone should actually make a chart showing the general ohm reading for each type of clapton build and how much wattage is required along with how warm/cool the vape is. I know its impossible to be exact but something very general would help a LOT of newer builders such as myself. For instance if there was some sort of chart showing the ohms with each type of build, including the type of wire, it would have really helped me out. I guess there could be one somewhere hidden deep in a forum.

Anyways, i bought a drill today so I am gonna go ahead and start messin around with some twisted builds and stuff until my higher gauge wire gets here. I will let ya know how it goes! Thanks again man for taking the time to help me out. If there is anything else I should know then feel free to post. I am like a sponge right now soaking up all this up. A year ago I was still on a Nautilus Mini thinking people were crazy for building all these coils and there couldnt possibly be a better tank lol.
 

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Just received a care package from Raymo (member here)....loaded with various Clapton's....can't wait to coil some new attys.

Bought some premade Clapton wire from UD, its definitely good wire, but after looking at Raymo's Clapton's I'd have to say there is no comparison.

Wish I had the time and patients to build my own, but I don't have either.

Good luck with your builds @Vapin_4_Real ....!
 

Vesuvius

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What type of wire do you use?
Kanthal A1 from UD, Pure Atomist, Lightning Vapes or right from the source which is from Temco. Can also get from eBay.

The only time I use SS, which is 316L, is when I use it in combination with Kanthal like in this build I did this evening. I twisted the SS in with the Clapton.

image.jpg
 

Vapin_4_Real

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@Vapin_4_Real dont forget to post your builds dude
Here we go. My very first twisted coil. 9 wrap 28g 3mm K A1. Not too pretty but I will get better.
IMG_2513_zpsxrjv9zj1.jpg
IMG_2515_zpsbhj6ywbf.jpg

The problem I am having is when I wrap them they want to come unwound like bad. Ended up having to use my coilmaster jig. It helped a good bit but I still cant get them tight. What am I doing wrong there? Also when I am twisting the wire it always breaks at the drill end. Why is it doing that. Shouldnt it be breaking on the other end where I am holding it with my pliers? And one more thing. I have always had a problem with the leg that goes thru the top post hole always being long. See how long it is in my pic. Is that normal or what can I do so that the leg isnt so long? I have tried wrapping it a lil more but it still ends up being long. Its never affected my vape quality so I have always just left them like that.
 

JERUS

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I am telling you I searched for days trying to find out what type of wire and gauge to use for the outer wrap. There just wasnt enough detailed info for me to really understand it. Someone should actually make a chart showing the general ohm reading for each type of clapton build and how much wattage is required along with how warm/cool the vape is. I know its impossible to be exact but something very general would help a LOT of newer builders such as myself. For instance if there was some sort of chart showing the ohms with each type of build, including the type of wire, it would have really helped me out. I guess there could be one somewhere hidden deep in a forum.

Anyways, i bought a drill today so I am gonna go ahead and start messin around with some twisted builds and stuff until my higher gauge wire gets here. I will let ya know how it goes! Thanks again man for taking the time to help me out. If there is anything else I should know then feel free to post. I am like a sponge right now soaking up all this up. A year ago I was still on a Nautilus Mini thinking people were crazy for building all these coils and there couldnt possibly be a better tank lol.
First Robot Zombie is one of the guys I love to read from on this forum, I consider myself quite knowledgeable but he still pops in and teaches me something every so often, good guy indeed.

But, for outer wrapping. Few things to know. First the additional resistance it adds is negligible, probably even unreadable by most ohmmeters. Simply it's resistance is so high that the current travels through the core wires almost exclusively (current finds the path of least resistance like we all do :D).

So any of it's properties don't need to be considered really other than mainly durability.

That said you want as high of gauge (thinnest) wire possible as it will decrease the ramp up dramatically. A 40g wrap has almost no impact on ramp up time, while the standard factory made claptons use 32g which is a very noticeable ramp up addition. But, thinner wire is harder to work with and takes longer to wrap, so that's worth considering with starting, which is why many suggest starting lower and working your way up. Personally I'm a "dive in and sink or swim" kind of guy so I jumped from 32g (which I didn't feel was worth the trouble at all) to 40g which I found very enjoyable (though I also jumped to fused claptons which is again a big jump, so I made a large leap which paid off). I think that's about it for wraps, I don't know if I'd recommend Ti or Ni200 but any other metal should be fine for claptoning (I do wish I could find SS 40g).

Here we go. My very first twisted coil. 9 wrap 28g 3mm K A1. Not too pretty but I will get better.
IMG_2513_zpsxrjv9zj1.jpg
IMG_2515_zpsbhj6ywbf.jpg

The problem I am having is when I wrap them they want to come unwound like bad. Ended up having to use my coilmaster jig. It helped a good bit but I still cant get them tight. What am I doing wrong there? Also when I am twisting the wire it always breaks at the drill end. Why is it doing that. Shouldnt it be breaking on the other end where I am holding it with my pliers? And one more thing. I have always had a problem with the leg that goes thru the top post hole always being long. See how long it is in my pic. Is that normal or what can I do so that the leg isnt so long? I have tried wrapping it a lil more but it still ends up being long. Its never affected my vape quality so I have always just left them like that.
Twisted is known for it's springiness. One thing that helps is torching it before wrapping, takes some of that spring out. But, you're not doing anything wrong it just is what it is. Just keep it tight and wrap and wrap. Then get it aligned right, toss it in, fire it up, and then insert your rod that you wound with and pull, this'll tighten it up, then pull the leads back through to get it placed right again, fire again, and repeat until it's set correctly. The springiness can take what you wrap around a say 2.5mm post and make it a 3.5mm+ Inner diameter. It can get nuts. So fire to make the wire more pliable, then stretch it with your rod and that'll tighten it up, the rinse and repeat is for better results. I've had the leads extend an overall 15mm before (the 2 combined) which is pretty nuts, just loosen the securing screws and pull the leads back in for placement. Nice looking twisted though. :stars2: (and can't be easy with a bandaid on, done a few like that and it's a pain both literally and figuratively!)
 

Vapin_4_Real

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Twisted is known for it's springiness.
When I watch youtubers wrap them they have no issue at all. SO there has to be something I am doing wrong. It shouldnt be as springy as it is. Like it just wants to come unwrapped. I make sure to straighten it before I twist it also. Using the coilmaster jig helped a lot tho. Meh I guess lots of trial and error and I will figure it out.
 

JERUS

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When I watch youtubers wrap them they have no issue at all. SO there has to be something I am doing wrong. It shouldnt be as springy as it is. Like it just wants to come unwrapped. I make sure to straighten it before I twist it also. Using the coilmaster jig helped a lot tho. Meh I guess lots of trial and error and I will figure it out.
Maybe they pull really hard as they wind it? Either way what I said has been my method for solving that issue and it hasn't been an issue. They might also just accept the larger ID and account for it or ignore it?
 

mach1ne

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i have had success using two different tricks. one is to just wrap your coil on a smaller jig and let it expand. try to make it so its still a bit too small after expanding so you have to force your jig through it and stretch it out to the right size. that seems to help it stay pretty good.

second, if you are using the coilmaster jig, do a bunch of extra wraps and wrap all the way to the end of your wire (dont save a leg). then pull back the first and last couple extra wraps and keep your desired amount from the middle. i find they are always much tighter and closer in the middle.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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Thanks for the tips. Gonna be doing a whole bunch of coil wrapping this evening. Hopefully I can get it nailed down.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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looks great man. how did it feel? a bit smoother? a little easier every time?
Yea i think I have it down now. Still using the jig to twist them. I am sure I will get the hang of twisting them free hand soon enough. And the vape is great man on my velocity. Cant wait to try claptons soon. My wire will be here Tuesday so I can get to work on those.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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They pop and spit a lot too but I assume thats normal from twisted wire.
 

mach1ne

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awesome. keep going at it and posting pics. i dunno about anyone else here, but i love seeing peoples first this or that as much as i love seeing the fancy shit the pros make. we are lucky to have some real pros here, and even luckier they are willing to teach us :) i am stillllll waiting for my real wire (its been long enough to warrant all the extra llllls) but my desire to build is killing me so i just spent a ton of money on wire at the vape shop today (its prolly ten times the ebay price there)...i got ribbon and some 32. gonna take a crack at a staple of some kind once the weekend rush at work is over and i can calm down and focus.

yeah i find the twisted spits a bit more than other coils too...
 

Vapin_4_Real

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Yea man I cant wait to start building fused claptons and stuff. I want to thank @robot zombie for giving me all the info he did. That helped me out a lot. Now if this wire would just hurry up and get here. I am gonna have to order some more 28 gauge soon lol.
 

mach1ne

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yeah dude @robot zombie is a champ, i see him helping people out a lot here. he has good taste in music too. check out the 'what are you listening to' thread in the non-vaping related forum, he posts music to build coils to almost every day :)
 

Iliketurtles

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Someone should actually make a chart showing the general ohm reading for each type of clapton build and how much wattage is required along with how warm/cool the vape is

This is a difficult proposition, because so many variables. Every time you clapton you are increasing the id of the core wire wraps as well as the (effectively parallel) outer wrap slightly lowering resistance. If you wrap on a 2.5mm mandrel and the clapton wire is 44 awg (.05mm) you have only changed the core's id by .1mm so it is 2.6mm. If you use 32awg however (.2mm) it has changed the id of the core wire wraps to 2.9mm. Then you also have the different wire types and combinations of them to consider. So what I am saying is - it would be a big chart. Thats even without the addition of the many variations of clapton coils with ribbon wires / three cores / multistrand cores / helixed wraps or cores etc... it would end up like a telephone directory.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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Yea I know. I just meant like a very generic chart on single core Kanthal builds as something for us newer builders to go off. It would take forever to try and go thru every type of wire, cores, etc
 

Iliketurtles

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Mostly people use 26 / 28 guage for cores and 34 36 38 guage wraps, These are the guages that are easy to work with and still produce a good result :)
 

JERUS

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Yea I know. I just meant like a very generic chart on single core Kanthal builds as something for us newer builders to go off. It would take forever to try and go thru every type of wire, cores, etc
To overly simplify it, you can use Steam-engine.org. Coil Building area, then slot it up as a "parallel/twisted" build with 0 pitch, it'll calculate for a parallel coil. The wrap of a clapton adds basically no resistance as almost all the current goes through the cores (Current like most things chooses the path of lease resistance).

Check your dual/single coil option. The core wire gauge and all that jazz. Estimate your Inner Diameter as what you wrap around plus the diameter of the wrapping wire. Play with the desired Ohm setting until it has the wraps you're intending to use.

So say I want to do dual 24g KA1 cored claptons with a 2.5mm ID using 40g wraps. I'm going to use 6 wraps. So I set it up as Kanthal A1 set to twisted/parallel, jump down to the gauge setting and put it to 24g. Set to Dual coil, and take a guess at .15Ω to start. Hop back up to the next column and set the Inner Diameter, I'm wrapping on a 2.5mm rod, and 40g is .08mm so 2.58mm is what I use. Generally in dual coil horizontal setups I don't have that much leg length so I typically just don't bother with that, I'll push the coil till it's touching the posts tighten then pull to get any slack, and then reset it back in if the legs end up too long... so the default 5mm is something I just don't bother with, I'm just looking for an estimate anyways.

I do all that and it says 7 wraps, ok, so I know it's going to be lower than .15, so lets change that desired ohms to .12. Now it says 5.53 wraps and under it "rounded to full wraps 6, (0.26Ω)" That ohm reading is per individual coil, dual coil you cut that in half, so that'd be .13Ω at 6 full wraps, .12Ω at 5 and a halfish.

Again gives a good estimate but it's not exact. Gives you an idea of what different core options are going to do, and factoring in the clapton to the Inner Diameter gets it closer.

As for wattage, there's no distinct right answer, it's preference and a lot of factors outside the coil. But, I've always started my experimenting on these things this way for fused claptons(based on experience for my preferences): .4Ω coil start at 40w, .3Ω start at 50w, .2Ω start at 70w, .1Ω start at 90w. From there I usually go higher, but it's where I start it as I prime the wick and get it all set up to vape. I have a .68Ω coil running 40w, a .37Ω coil at 70w, a .48Ω at ~110w (mech so no absolute), a .13Ω coil at ~105w, and a .08Ω coil at 150w as my current setups I'm vaping. As you can see it's a pretty wide spread and you even have a lower ohm coil running at a lower wattage than a higher ohm coil, the wicking oh that .48Ω coil is simply way better than the one with the .37Ω coil. So on my regulated devices I have a generalized starting point but it doesn't really mean all that much. Vaping is physics, but sitting and doing the calculations is simply silly a lot of the time, experience will let you better guess, but in the end you're going to want to find the personal sweet spot for every device, and you'll never be able to do ALL the math to determine the exact right setup. That .08Ω coil can be vaped at 200w, but I don't like it. Likewise that .37Ω coil I wouldn't mind putting as much power as I put through the .48Ω coil into it, but the wicking can't keep up. So it's a bit of guess and check, just guess low and work your way up until you're happy, that's the best way to do it IMO.
 

Iliketurtles

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2.5mm rod, and 40g is .08mm so 2.58mm
It will be 2 x clapton diameter - if you take a cross section it will be between the core and mandrel both sides so thats why x2. Not that it makes much difference with 40 gauge ha ha
 

JERUS

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It will be 2 x clapton diameter - if you take a cross section it will be between the core and mandrel both sides so thats why x2. Not that it makes much difference with 40 gauge ha ha
Hmm, a bit confused on this. Why X2? I have the diameter of the wrap in between the cores and the rod, so it should only space the cores out by the single diameter. The resistance is based on the length of the cores mainly, with wraps your inner diameter means more length, and that ID is added on to by it being spaced out from the rod by the clapton, but where is the second diameter coming from?
 

Iliketurtles

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Lets say you wrapped the mandrel with the clapton would it be .08 wider or .16 wider afterwards?
 

JERUS

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Lets say you wrapped the mandrel with the clapton would it be .08 wider or .16 wider afterwards?
Well where are you measuring from? If it's the center just .08mm wider, if you're measuring from the outside (which defeats the purpose of INNER diameter) it'd be .16mm wider.
 

Iliketurtles

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Diameter is a straight measurement from one side to the other through the center - half that is the radius. So the inner diameter of the core wire wraps is made .16 bigger by a .08 clapton wrap.

circle2.gif
 
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JERUS

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Diameter is a straight measurement from one side to the other through the center - half that is the radius.
But the Inner diameter is not the measure of the coil but the measure vacant space inside the coil. The diameter of the coil would be what you're talking about, but that's different than the inner diameter.
zl13_tcm_12-6149.gif

The large cross in the center to the inner circle is the "inner diameter" The outer circle is the overall diameter, the smaller cross lines would be the diameter of the wire. (image just pulled off a quick google search). So the difference between a strait parallel build and a fused clapton would just be the addition space that the diameter of the outer wire would add as far as inner diameter. For overall diameter of the coil it would add both sides and be X2 that wrap diameter.

Now if you know Steamengine works ... well stupidly... then that'd change things, but I'm of the assumption that it's looking at the actual inner diameter and potentially factoring in the diameter of the wire, so maybe measuring from the center, but in either case you'd just count 1X the wrap diameter in addition to the item you're wrapping around.
 

Iliketurtles

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Diameter is not a measurement from the center - it is one side to the other through the center.
 

JERUS

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Diameter is not a measurement from the center - it is one side to the other through the center.
Diameter is the measure of a circle from one side to the other through the center. However we're working with a circle with a width. Where you measure that circle makes a difference. The outer diameter of a coil is the measure from the outside of that width through the center to the outside of the other side of the circle. The inner diameter is the measure of the inside of the circle to the inside of the other side through the center. The reason you add the clapton wrap diameter is because it's negligible in resistance but does add to the inner (and outer) diameter of the coil. But, you only add 1X it's diameter for the Inner diameter as it only adds it's diameter once to the inner diameter before you get to the coil that is taking the resistance which is the cores.

Same reason when picking a washer for some job you look at both the inner and outer diameters. A washer that has a larger inner diameter than the bolt you're using is useless. The outer diameter isn't as much in play, but you don't want something crazy large also. When you're working with a circle with a width you have to measure both, the same is done with pipes. It's why standard calipers have two different sides, the "wrench" looking side is for outer diamether, the more pointed side is for inner diameter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calipers (scroll down to vernier calipers)
 

Iliketurtles

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concentric-circles.jpg

So I copied one and put labels on it, it was easier. The core wire inside diameter increase from the mandrel....and why its x2 clapton dia + mandrel dia.
 

JERUS

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View attachment 47815

So I copied one and put labels on it, it was easier. The core wire inside diameter increase from the mandrel....and why its x2 clapton dia + mandrel dia.
Bah you're right, sorry, silly me. My head was thinking about radius the whole time apparently. Thanks for taking the time for the diagram. :D Drunk me at 3AM ain't all that smart.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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Mostly people use 26 / 28 guage for cores and 34 36 38 guage wraps, These are the guages that are easy to work with and still produce a good result
Yea I have an order of 32g , 34g, and 36g arriving Tuesday and I can get to work.
 

raymo2u

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I cant wait to some some more talent in the forum, you guys seem to be doing very well!
 

Vapin_4_Real

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I cant wait to some some more talent in the forum, you guys seem to be doing very well!
I am still tryin to see whats the best way to spin these. I have tried then pen method and the ole kanger bvc coil method using swivels. The pen seems to work best out of the 2. Kept having spacing issues using the coil. Cant wait to move on to fused.
 

raymo2u

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I am still tryin to see whats the best way to spin these. I have tried then pen method and the ole kanger bvc coil method using swivels. The pen seems to work best out of the 2. Kept having spacing issues using the coil. Cant wait to move on to fused.
With normal Claptons I like pinching just before the wire would wrap on the core and then blast the drill on full speed, make sure to lube fingers with VG as they can get friction burned...Let the wire wrap itself and move itself forwards but dont hold it in place tightly as it can wrap back on itself...find that perfect medium.
For Fused Claptons and up I think Swivels and holding the spool is best (For me anyways), it almost wraps itself using 34g-42g and there is less tension on the cores and wrap.
 

Vapin_4_Real

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Do you hold the spool at a 90 degree angle, forward towards the swivels, or backwards towards the drill?
 

mach1ne

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looking great dude. i got a few days off coming up, and my black goon clone apparently arrived today (ordered with a buddy, its at his place now)....time to open that ribbon i bought the other day and take a crack at greatness :devil:
 

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