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Carambrda

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Yes that's pretty much how this country got started.
Christopher Columbus was a European, though, so I understand your frustrations. His dad was a wool merchant─the same wool that's now used for manufacturing cholecalciferol... and then there's also the fact that the guy who first described cholecalciferol was yet another European. :D

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1*V04eDmd_nzDcyMcXfsiaOg.jpeg
 
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MyMagicMist

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I have actually found lately that a Nurse Practitioner is more likely to take additional time to listen to and work with me than a doctor. Perhaps it's just plain luck, and certainly consulting an NP is not appropriate for all conditions, but for whatever it's worth, it's something to think about.

Find the same for general cases, myself. The nurse can then pass me off to a doctor if need be. Need the endocrinologist, or so I'm told, for Kallmann Syndrome. He prescribes testosterone, which accordingly to what I'm told I'll need all my life. I wonder but well, that's not for here. :)
 

Jimi

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I lol'd... Cholecalciferol is produced industrially for use in vitamin supplements and to fortify foods. As a pharmaceutical drug it is called cholecalciferol (USAN) or colecalciferol (INN, BAN). It is produced by the ultraviolet irradiation of 7-dehydrocholesterol extracted from lanolin found in sheep's wool.

Sauce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholecalciferol#Industrial_production

Here's how reliable doctors who, unlike you and those who love to think you're some kind of super intelligent voodoo oracle, aren't completely fucked up in the head normally talk about the subject:
Troll your own ass next time, bud. :luck:
Hey you looked it up. :stars2:

In the first place, TROLL, I don't and have never considered myself some kind of intelligent voodoo oracle. If someone were to ASK my opinion on something I give it but unlike YOU I was asked into this thread and ASKED my opinion to help out a fellow member and YOU, TROLL, come along and make an asshole situation out of it. LIKE I AM SURE A LITTLE HEAVIER DOSE WOULD OF HURT @inganeer while he got well from Covid, Oh that's right, you think vitamin D# is a addictive drug:rolleyes:. It's Trolls like YOU that ruins this forum for EVERYONE. I am NOT waisting anymore time on your TROLL bullshit, go Troll someone else.
You just came here to troll, I have seen you troll others.
 
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Jimi

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Christopher Columbus was a European, though, so I understand your frustrations. His dad was a wool merchant─the same wool that's now used for manufacturing cholecalciferol... and then there's also the fact that the guy who first described cholecalciferol was yet another European. :D

?

1*V04eDmd_nzDcyMcXfsiaOg.jpeg
Thank you for the history lesson but that's still illrelivent to the conversation of "if a heavier dose is going to be bad for a fellow member" , but yes we Americans did create this country BY NOT BEING SHEEPLE and NOT being totally dominated by someone in athority
 

eSMOKA

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These cute internet quotes and "facts" are usually bogus.

Got a link to that "survey"? Also, did they ask the doctors in that survey if they were sick and tired of living? Becuase doctors are highly stressed from work and bad investments. Could be if there is such a survery, most of those doctors hated their lives, but they didn't think to ask them about that ;)
 

MyMagicMist

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These cute internet quotes and "facts" are usually bogus.

Got a link to that "survey"? Also, did they ask the doctors in that survey if they were sick and tired of living? Becuase doctors are highly stressed from work and bad investments. Could be if there is such a survery, most of those doctors hated their lives, but they didn't think to ask them about that ;)

Not for me to provide anyone a defense. Not doing that in this case at any rate. Instead it is seeing a question and wondering for myself.

Think I found the surveys which are referenced. It was a case of a few surveys factually. Seems that there is roughly one third of oncologists which do not want to use chemotherapy.

Suppose I could find one third of devout Christians who do not believe Christ walked on water, too. Could also speculate I may find one third Hindu who don't believe Krishna and Shiva are the same being. What do any of these cases prove? What I have been saying all along regarding opinions.

People will believe what they choose, and there's no convincing them otherwise once they've made up their minds. People also have a right to a degree to speak their opinions, ideas, thoughts, beliefs. That degree usually falls under such speech not inciting violence, harm to others.

Not a lawyer myself so I'll not get any further into the degree of which one is free to speak. Suffice it to say that such a freedom seems capable of being narrowly defined. For example I can not go around suggesting gerbil enemas as a cure for having a corn cob up one's a**.

Now, let me address your signature line. You keep right on saying what you want. I'll gladly support your right to say it. Will also gladly support my right to not hear it.

That is not against freedom of speech. No, that rather is all for freedom of speech. My choosing to not hear what someone says is my action of speech, as much as their speech.

To support both means I defend both equally. That doesn't mean not hearing something designates one as lying. It simply means they can choose their own right to speech through the action of not hearing.

Again it boils down to what I've said of opinions. Everyone has one and most are aware theirs stinks just like anal orifices. So please do believe, think, opine, speak as you choose, all you choose.

Not everyone wants to bother confronting you. (You used in the general case here to mean anyone.) Not everyone is dumb enough to debate opinion, knowing there's never a winner. Instead some of us are content to simply not listen to you. (Same general case you, used again. Matter of fact that's intended through this whole post, a general case you to mean anyone.)

Why do I address your signature line? It's germane to the whole of the subject matter discussed. It seemed fitting to address it, in my opinion of course.

Have a good one. And come to think of it, not sure why I can not suggest gerbil enemas. Know a few what might benefit from the vitality evoked from such an affair.
 
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nadalama

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Not for me to provide anyone a defense. Not doing that in this case at any rate. Instead it is seeing a question and wondering for myself.

Think I found the surveys which are referenced. It was a case of a few surveys factually. Seems that there is roughly one third of oncologists which do not want to use chemotherapy.

Suppose I could find one third of devout Christians who do not believe Christ walked on water, too. Could also speculate I may find one third Hindu who don't believe Krishna and Shiva are the same being. What do any of these cases prove? What I have been saying all along regarding opinions.

People will believe what they choose, and there's no convincing them otherwise once they've made up their minds. People also have a right to a degree to speak their opinions, ideas, thoughts, beliefs. That degree usually falls under such speech not inciting violence, harm to others.

Not a lawyer myself so I'll not get any further into the degree of which one is free to speak. Suffice it to say that such a freedom seems capable of being narrowly defined. For example I can not go around suggesting gerbil enemas as a cure for having a corn cob up one's a**.

Now, let me address your signature line. You keep right on saying what you want. I'll gladly support your right to say it. Will also gladly support my right to not hear it.

That is not against freedom of speech. No, that rather is all for freedom of speech. My choosing to not hear what someone says is my action of speech, as much as their speech.

To support both means I defend both equally. That doesn't mean not hearing something designates one as lying. It simply means they can choose their own right to speech through the action of not hearing.

Again it boils down to what I've said of opinions. Everyone has one and most are aware theirs stinks just like anal orifices. So please do believe, think, opine, speak as you choose, all you choose.

Not everyone wants to bother confronting you. (You used in the general case here to mean anyone.) Not everyone is dumb enough to debate opinion, knowing there's never a winner. Instead some of us are content to simply not listen to you. (Same general case you, used again. Matter of fact that's intended through this whole post, a general case you to mean anyone.)

Why do I address your signature line? It's germane to the whole of the subject matter discussed. It seemed fitting to address it, in my opinion of course.

Have a good one. And come to think of it, not sure why I can not suggest gerbil enemas. Know a few what might benefit from the vitality evoked from such an affair.

One can do all that thinking....or one can simply walk away.

Myers Briggs testing tells me I am INFJ. And all my cognizant life, well before I knew of Myers Briggs, I had mastered the INFJ Door Slam.
 

Carambrda

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Hey you looked it up. :stars2:

In the first place, TROLL, I don't and have never considered myself some kind of intelligent voodoo oracle. If someone were to ASK my opinion on something I give it but unlike YOU I was asked into this thread and ASKED my opinion to help out a fellow member and YOU, TROLL, come along and make an asshole situation out of it. LIKE I AM SURE A LITTLE HEAVIER DOSE WOULD OF HURT @inganeer while he got well from Covid, Oh that's right, you think vitamin D# is a addictive drug:rolleyes:. It's Trolls like YOU that ruins this forum for EVERYONE. I am NOT waisting anymore time on your TROLL bullshit, go Troll someone else.
You just came here to troll, I have seen you troll others.
First off, I looked it up a very long time before this thread was even posted. Apparently you did not, else you would have known the fact that it is a pharmaceutical drug, which means you're the one who is trolling, not me. Secondly, last time I checked, it isn't against the forum rules to post reliable information in order to show that one part of your opinion is bust. Lashing out at me like this isn't going to change that fact. Rather, it just confirms that you're the one trolling with useless BS. Thirdly, I never wrote anything about vitamin D being addictive so, again, add more useless trolling. Fourthly, I'm only posting this so everyone who might be reading this thread can more easily see who is posting useless BS. Fifthly, could you and everyone who is defending your useless BS cry me a huge river, please? Thank you! :facepalm:
 

Carambrda

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I just call it like I see it. If I were to find a modern day so called doctor that ACTUALLY CARED ABOUT THEIR PATIENT then and only then will I change my opinion on them.
I just call it what it factually is: your dangerous attemps at playing Mr. Voodoo...
 

Carambrda

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Thank you for the history lesson but that's still illrelivent to the conversation of "if a heavier dose is going to be bad for a fellow member" , but yes we Americans did create this country BY NOT BEING SHEEPLE and NOT being totally dominated by someone in athority
Correction: you're the one who is trying to dominate medical sciences with your persistent denial of the fact that 25,000 IU per day may not entirely be safe and should therefore not be recommended to anyone until after a blood test has been conducted in order to reliably diagnose the deficiency.
 

Carambrda

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I recommend visiting Dr. Pol─he is a veterinarian who became famous on National Geographic Channel, and, he is a European so most likely he is going to be always reliable. Maybe he has a cure for headless chicken. :question:
 

Jimi

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First off, I looked it up a very long time before this thread was even posted. Apparently you did not, else you would have known the fact that it is a pharmaceutical drug, which means you're the one who is trolling, not me. Secondly, last time I checked, it isn't against the forum rules to post reliable information in order to show that one part of your opinion is bust. Lashing out at me like this isn't going to change that fact. Rather, it just confirms that you're the one trolling with useless BS. Thirdly, I never wrote anything about vitamin D being addictive so, again, add more useless trolling. Fourthly, I'm only posting this so everyone who might be reading this thread can more easily see who is posting useless BS. Fifthly, could you and everyone who is defending your useless BS cry me a huge river, please? Thank you! :facepalm:
This is my Final responce to you, I am tired of waisting my time on you. So going to bunch them all together.

Firstly: apparently you didn't look it up far enough. These are examples of who makes Vit D



THEY ONLY FALL INTO THAT CATAGORY BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ARE, VITAMINS. what else are they going to class them as, footwear? :rolleyes:

Secondly: No one said you broke any rules and MAYBE why I lashed out MIGHT have been because YOU said
"you're some kind of super intelligent voodoo oracle"
Geee imagine that:rolleyes:

Thirdly: On that point you are right, wrong choice of words, for that I feel remorse.

Fourthly: That's is exactly the reason I am posting this, so people can see your BS.

Fifthly: Sure we will so you can have something to swallow all your big pharma chemical pills with.

I just call it what it factually is: your dangerous attemps at playing Mr. Voodoo...
Call it what you want, I have given myself more life with my natural stuff than your so called doctors ever would of, so who's the real quack here. You just can't stand seeing some one help themselves without being controled by big pharma, told ya Americans aren't sheeple, like some think:rolleyes:


Correction: you're the one who is trying to dominate medical sciences with your persistent denial of the fact that 25,000 IU per day may not entirely be safe and should therefore not be recommended to anyone until after a blood test has been conducted in order to reliably diagnose the deficiency.

Call it what you want but I am healthier and happier since I started my natural treatments and I didn't recomend anyone to take 25000 units, I SAID A HIGHER DOSAGE, AND THAT I, ME, I TAKE25000 UNITS A DAY

OK I AM DONE TALKING TO YOU. Have a nice life.


And I want to say sorry to all the rest of the membership for having to read all this and to Inganeer for my part in the hijack of his thread.
 
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Jimi

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These cute internet quotes and "facts" are usually bogus.

Got a link to that "survey"? Also, did they ask the doctors in that survey if they were sick and tired of living? Becuase doctors are highly stressed from work and bad investments. Could be if there is such a survery, most of those doctors hated their lives, but they didn't think to ask them about that ;)
I want to ask you a question.
How many oncologists have you asked that question??????

I have asked four so far and have yet to have one look me in the eye and say "YES I WOULD"
Till then I am believing it.
 
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JuicyLucy

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I just call it what it factually is: your dangerous attemps at playing Mr. Voodoo...

You have not educated yourself enough about alternative medicines to understand shit

Western medicine is not the only way, and Jimi helps me and others here when western medicine has failed us - no need to be a dick about that fact

Christopher Columbus was a European, though, so I understand your frustrations.

And for the record, Columbus never step foot on North American soil and had zero to do with the founding of the USA
 

Carambrda

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You have not educated yourself enough about alternative medicines to understand shit

Western medicine is not the only way, and Jimi helps me and others here when western medicine has failed us - no need to be a dick about that fact



And for the record, Columbus never step foot on North American soil and had zero to do with the founding of the USA
Copaiba trees grow in Brazil.
 

Carambrda

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This is my Final responce to you, I am tired of waisting my time on you. So going to bunch them all together.

Firstly: apparently you didn't look it up far enough. These are examples of who makes Vit D



THEY ONLY FALL INTO THAT CATAGORY BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ARE, VITAMINS. what else are they going to class them as, footwear? :rolleyes:

Secondly: No one said you broke any rules and MAYBE why I lashed out MIGHT have been because YOU said
"you're some kind of super intelligent voodoo oracle"
Geee imagine that:rolleyes:

Thirdly: On that point you are right, wrong choice of words, for that I feel remorse.

Fourthly: That's is exactly the reason I am posting this, so people can see your BS.

Fifthly: Sure we will so you can have something to swallow all your big pharma chemical pills with.


Call it what you want, I have given myself more life with my natural stuff than your so called doctors ever would of, so who's the real quack here. You just can't stand seeing some one help themselves without being controled by big pharma, told ya Americans aren't sheeple, like some think:rolleyes:




Call it what you want but I am healthier and happier since I started my natural treatments and I didn't recomend anyone to take 25000 units, I SAID A HIGHER DOSAGE, AND THAT I, ME, I TAKE25000 UNITS A DAY

OK I AM DONE TALKING TO YOU. Have a nice life.


And I want to say sorry to all the rest of the membership for having to read all this and to Inganeer for my part in the hijack of his thread.
Let me set this straight. The first link you gave points to a website that has a blog section on which they recently posted this blog article:
Now scroll down to the bottom of that article, look at the sources that they reference. That's exactly right... each and every last one of them is from a bunch of, err... doctors. LOL!

I didn't bother to read the rest of your post. You very clearly don't know when you've lost an argument. Your posts are killing me with laughter. Killing me is very bad for my health so, here's hoping that you meant what you said about this being your final attempt at that. :wave:

EDIT: Okay, I decided to do you one last favor by clicking on the second link you gave. Here's what:

What Differentiates Us from Other Vitamin Manufacturers?

Our team {snip...} will work with you {snip...} to maximize your sales.
:bingo:
 
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Carambrda

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Brazil is SOUTH America. @JuicyLucy is correct Columbus did not step onto North American soil. How can anyone claiming such vast knowledge, great intellect be so foolish? That's a rhetorical question which you needn't proffer reply.
Where in my posts do you see me claim that Brazil isn't South America or that Columbus stepped foot onto North American soil? :question:
 

MyMagicMist

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Christopher Columbus was a European, though, so I understand your frustrations.
Where in my posts do you see me claim that Brazil isn't South America or that Columbus stepped foot onto North American soil?

You appear to be inferring, or implying as much in the statement above. Granted what appears and what is intent may be different things. Often though as you're certainly aware what appears becomes the reality. That noted I apologize if what appeared was not what you intended. I misread what was stated possibly.
 
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gadget!

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I feel for all of you that have been effected by Covid-19 but unfortunately I'm unsubscribing from this thread.
It seems to have turned into a pissing match.

Sent from a Galaxy far far away
 

Carambrda

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You appear to be inferring, or implying as much in the statement above. Granted what appears and what is intent may be different things. Often though as you're certainly aware what appears becomes the reality. That noted I apologize if what appeared was not what you intended. I misread what was stated possibly.
Are you now trying to tell me that @Jimi didn't appear to be inferring, or implying a lot of things about vitamin D that not only appear to be excellent fantasies, but can in fact be shown to be that, merely by visiting those links that he gave, as they both point to websites the information on which speaks volumes about what exactly it is that went on here? I'll just link to my post again, just in case you had missed it:

Bottom line: I laughed my ass off. Please send help fast... I really need to find a way to get my ass back on!
 

MyMagicMist

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Are you now trying to tell me that, ...

No, not saying that at all. What I've been saying all along. "Buyer Beware" We are on a forum open to the public, freely. We all can post opinions. It's up to each person to make up their own minds either based on opinions, or other data.

It isn't a double standard that I do not cajole @Jimi's posts. I see how he posts stuff. He does not blatantly attack others with his opinions. You can take or leave what he posts with or without a grain of salt.

You on the other hand seem content to affront others with your opinions. What I'm calling you on is that fact demonstrated by your posting, the manner of your posts, their tone. As I said once before you seem to believe that only your opinion matters. Sure, it's the only one that matters to you.

Other people have opinions as well. We don't need your permission to have them, express them. We also don't need you berating us for having them. You continually seem to do this. We're not any better or less for having them, nor are you any better or less having your own.

What degrades you, in my opinion, to a point I no longer care to read most of your posts is your manner. I am allowed to feel/think/believe that too. Which reminds me.
 

f1r3b1rd

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Jesus fucking Christ...

first off- I am feeling bettter.

secondly and a huge giant thank you and hugs out to Lucy and Jimi. I used a combination of zinc and quercetin both times I had the covid. Kind of got the shakes this last time but the alternative medicines recommended worked well.

Thirdly, I’ve known jimi for quite a few years now, and I remember a time when we were very scared to lose him. I applaud him and look up to him for his knowledge on alternative medicine. He has every reason to feel the way he does about the medical
Industry. Bashing him for thinking the way he does is like bashing a person for their religious beliefs, and I have zero respect for anyone that would do so. Have you walked a mile in his shoes? The man deserves your respect and if you were smart enough to shut up and listen, you might learn a few things from him.
love ya Jimi and Lucy thank you both for the help and advice.

Lastly, for a European to try and educate a bunch of educated Americans on American history is fucking hilarious. Seriously though, after the morning I had I needed that laugh.
 

f1r3b1rd

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Noticed as well, vaccines will start becoming available between 12-12 and 12-15.
I’ve seen some mixed opinions and possible side effects. One such side effect that I’ve seen are autoimmune diseases like Guilin Barrè. Not sure that it’s enough fo a risk for me to avoid taking it. I’m too high a risk to not to take advantage of the vaccine.

 

nadalama

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Noticed as well, vaccines will start becoming available between 12-12 and 12-15.
I’ve seen some mixed opinions and possible side effects. One such side effect that I’ve seen are autoimmune diseases like Guilin Barrè. Not sure that it’s enough fo a risk for me to avoid taking it. I’m too high a risk to not to take advantage of the vaccine.


Bird, I'm really glad to hear that you're feeling better. I agree with you about the vaccines. If I get a chance to get one, I'm doing it.

Secondly, thank you for speaking up as you did. The confidence behind your response lends credence. We're not all morons here, as some seem to assume.

Now, we'd all like to hear from @inganeer and see how he's feeling. I have seen that he's given "likes" in various places around the forum in the last few days, so he has been around. I just hope he hasn't let all the bullshit in this thread run him off. It very nearly justifies the existence of a "Stalker" badge.
 

inganeer

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I have been given the all clear to go back to work.
How ever I am having shortness of breath and I'm very tired all the time. Theses may linger for awhile. I guess I was a lot sicker than I noticed. It's the worst ass whoopin I've ever had. It's one day at a time right now.

I am extremely happy that I didn't give this to my wife and stepson. My stepson has spinabifada along with other medical issues.

It's has been a rough year. I lost my mom in May to severe COPD and my wife just lost her oldest son about a month ago. He also has spinabifada but not as bad as his little brother. I can't remember off the top of head what he died from right now.

And if that isn't enough almost six hours to the minute after my mom's passing her brother passed away. He also had severe COPD. He was my hero. He was a retired marine special forces for 16 years in Vietnam. He also suffered from the effects of agent orange.

Anyway life goes on. At times it seems really hard just got to appreciate what I still have.

I really appreciate the advice that some of you have given. I am trying some of it. Thanks everyone from the bottom of my heart for your kind words.

Sent from my LGL722DL using Tapatalk
 

f1r3b1rd

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I have been given the all clear to go back to work.
How ever I am having shortness of breath and I'm very tired all the time. Theses may linger for awhile. I guess I was a lot sicker than I noticed. It's the worst ass whoopin I've ever had. It's one day at a time right now.

I am extremely happy that I didn't give this to my wife and stepson. My stepson has spinabifada along with other medical issues.

It's has been a rough year. I lost my mom in May to severe COPD and my wife just lost her oldest son about a month ago. He also has spinabifada but not as bad as his little brother. I can't remember off the top of head what he died from right now.

And if that isn't enough almost six hours to the minute after my mom's passing her brother passed away. He also had severe COPD. He was my hero. He was a retired marine special forces for 16 years in Vietnam. He also suffered from the effects of agent orange.

Anyway life goes on. At times it seems really hard just got to appreciate what I still have.

I really appreciate the advice that some of you have given. I am trying some of it. Thanks everyone from the bottom of my heart for your kind words.

Sent from my LGL722DL using Tapatalk
My deepest sympathies, condolences and prayers for your loss. Glad to hear you’re doing better. I know every case is different, the first time I had it, it took about a month for me to get my energy back. This last time wasn’t nearly as bad. Hopefully you’ll be back in the swing of things sooner than you think.
 

nadalama

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I have been given the all clear to go back to work.
How ever I am having shortness of breath and I'm very tired all the time. Theses may linger for awhile. I guess I was a lot sicker than I noticed. It's the worst ass whoopin I've ever had. It's one day at a time right now.

I am extremely happy that I didn't give this to my wife and stepson. My stepson has spinabifada along with other medical issues.

It's has been a rough year. I lost my mom in May to severe COPD and my wife just lost her oldest son about a month ago. He also has spinabifada but not as bad as his little brother. I can't remember off the top of head what he died from right now.

And if that isn't enough almost six hours to the minute after my mom's passing her brother passed away. He also had severe COPD. He was my hero. He was a retired marine special forces for 16 years in Vietnam. He also suffered from the effects of agent orange.

Anyway life goes on. At times it seems really hard just got to appreciate what I still have.

I really appreciate the advice that some of you have given. I am trying some of it. Thanks everyone from the bottom of my heart for your kind words.

Sent from my LGL722DL using Tapatalk

That sounds like an awful lot to have dealt with in less than a year's time. You must feel like a bomb has gone off inside. I hope you can try to take it easy on yourself whenever you can, and get plenty of rest.

I have a very good friend here in town, she actually is a distant relative of mine, and one of her grandchildren has spina bifida. I understand some of the challenges associated with that, just from knowing her. Being an adult is a very difficult thing sometimes, and I really feel for you and your wife.

I hope you recuperate in record time and things will get easier for you, going forward. :hug:
 

Carambrda

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No, not saying that at all. What I've been saying all along. "Buyer Beware" We are on a forum open to the public, freely. We all can post opinions. It's up to each person to make up their own minds either based on opinions, or other data.

It isn't a double standard that I do not cajole @Jimi's posts. I see how he posts stuff. He does not blatantly attack others with his opinions. You can take or leave what he posts with or without a grain of salt.

You on the other hand seem content to affront others with your opinions. What I'm calling you on is that fact demonstrated by your posting, the manner of your posts, their tone. As I said once before you seem to believe that only your opinion matters. Sure, it's the only one that matters to you.

Other people have opinions as well. We don't need your permission to have them, express them. We also don't need you berating us for having them. You continually seem to do this. We're not any better or less for having them, nor are you any better or less having your own.

What degrades you, in my opinion, to a point I no longer care to read most of your posts is your manner. I am allowed to feel/think/believe that too. Which reminds me.
Let me set this straight. Opinions are highly overrated. The vast majority of opinions come from things like misinformation, downright disinformation for trying to mislead, and going against any form of logical thinking, showing a complete lack in understanding basic concepts/truths while at the same time also revealing a pertinent incapacity to reason. To generally accuse those who work really hard in real medical sciences as a means to protect and improve health is always easy of course, but in this case clearly you are taking it one step too far, by being the superlative of hypocritical for the fact it is you, not me, who is blatantly jumping to the defense of an individual trying to berate medical experts by using the spreading of nonsene that is so self-degradedly nonsensical in fact, it can not be degraded much further. Enough said.
 

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