ECF Refugees!

[No Ash More Cash]

To be fair, I kept going back to your thread because I routinely read all of the threads in the news section - I write articles on news and science topics in vaping, and so I stay on top of the news. I was just doing my job. So sue me.

As to your vindictive attitude - you saw it fit to give me a ton of shit just because I liked that your thread was closed, and that was like a month ago. So get the fuck over it already. You're gonna hold a grudge over something that silly? Don't you have better things to do with your time?

Nice pic btw ha ha

This is to easy. in fact it's embarrassing .. Let me get this right... Ok you kept going to my thread thinking I was cramming things downs peoples throats but you was doing your job...I was posting stuff like Documentaries links to facts and so on...A few of people like what I was posting and few didn't that's all good...Now when you're doing your so called job and someone has made a thread about one thing and they keep adding things to it is that wrong? because that's basically what I was doing just adding too it and that's basically what you are saying... my I suggest you get a different job it really don't suit or fit you unless your going to work for Fox news and just because you have a biomedical degree doesn't make you smart...BTW their name is Dagonbuffs and not Dagonpuff so you might have a chance of a trademark on it unless someone else has it or will get it. but having a name on a message board since 2009 Don't mean jack shit in a court of law...Now I really see what I'm dealing with I'm done with you...I hate shooting fish in a barrel...it's really no fun

 

[CaFF]

Hi everyone, my first post here and I thought this thread was fitting... I've been a member of ECF since 2009, and honestly I always loved some of the people and discussions there... But...

As soon as you start getting into business their rules get ridiculous I've been writing articles for Vaping Cheap for 2 months, and despite the fact that the subject material is very ECF-friendly (not to mention helpful for the community), they've never let me post my articles there because there's "too many affiliate links" for crap...

To top it all off, one of my threads got deleted today because I mentioned that someday I may want to produce my own vape products... yeah, that's right, my thread got deleted because I was talking about a hypothetical business that didn't exist in real life so sue me!

So here I am oh and it's nice to be allowed to say FUCK in the public forum ty for that!

Greetings Dragon! Nice to see ya.
Yeah, same 'ol Caff as on ECF...much later..lol

 

[dragonpuff]

This is to easy. in fact it's embarrassing .. Let me get this right... Ok you kept going to my thread thinking I was cramming things downs peoples throats but you was doing your job...I was posting stuff like Documentaries links to facts and so on...A few of people like what I was posting and few didn't that's all good...Now when you're doing your so called job and someone has made a thread about one thing and they keep adding things to it is that wrong? because that's basically what I was doing just adding too it and that's basically what you are saying... my I suggest you get a different job it really don't suit or fit you unless your going to work for Fox news and just because you have a biomedical degree doesn't make you smart...BTW their name is Dagonbuffs and not Dagonpuff so you might have a chance of a trademark on it unless someone else has it or will get it. but having a name on a message board since 2009 Don't mean jack shit in a court of law...Now I really see what I'm dealing with I'm done with you...I hate shooting fish in a barrel...it's really no fun

Aw it's so flattering that you went out of your way to look up all of that info about me, you must really be interested in what I'm all about meanwhile I couldn't be bothered to look up anything about you because I just don't give a fuck... Although next time I would appreciate the courtesy of you spelling my name right, fwiw gotta protect that company name! Lol!

And it really didn't occur to you that other people were posting in your thread besides you? Are you really that conceited? Maybe, just maybe, I was looking for links and info other people posted. The world doesn't really revolve around you ya know.

 

[dragonpuff]

Greetings Dragon! Nice to see ya.
Yeah, same 'ol Caff as on ECF...much later..lol

Hey Caff, good to see ya around! How goes it?

And don't mind my argument with Tons of Fun here, we're just having a bit of a rumble

 

[CaFF]

Hey Caff, good to see ya around! How goes it?

And don't mind my argument with Tons of Fun here, we're just having a bit of a rumble

Eh, no worries.

I'm pretty good, settling down a bit in vaping...just got my first "DNA30" clone recently and loving it so far.

Still have the Tiki Kitteh....

 

[CaFF]

Oh, and the Big Chat Thread ova here is The Alternate Universe: http://vapingunderground.com/threads/alternate-universe.14363/page-226#post-182103

 

[tombaker]

Wow...

To be fair, if you were truly "open to argument and debate," as you say, you wouldn't have been trying to cram your opinion down everyone's throat for page after page after page... that's why your thread was closed. That's not exactly the same situation as I am in, although I will keep your vindictive attitude in mind when having to deal with you in the future.

You wanna be treated like an adult you say? Well then you should probably start acting like one.

Oh, and I say this with all due respect

dragonpuff, it is odd to see you here complaining about ECF. I have seen plenty of your posts. Well actually you seem to be more of a rubber stamper of others posts. When I would post, and someone would tell me to shut up, or get lost, or whatever means they could do to discourage discussion, you were right in there with your LIKES. So when No Ash More Cash says he was not all too thrilled with you liking the closing down of his thread....I see it as just you doing your standard thing, as you say your job.

That is what a lot of stuff is like on ECF. A post by someone, not taken well for whatever resaon, so someone writes back, and then you and a bunch of other people like the post. A little lynch mob of Likers, and you probably have 10-1 likes to your actual posts.

When you call another poster as Vindictive, its another thing I recognize from you dragonpuff. All the fake outrage.... a bunch of LIKERS, one says delete the post, YOU LIKE, another says, that poster should go to a different forum, or just go away, YOU LIKE.....Get a reaction from the OP, and then ask the MODs to ban them.......its what you do....you got that job to do. It won't work here, the "how dare you" game does not work here. Your 2nd post here started the how dare you, I will remember that....its standard stuff, right?

dragonpuff I recognize your name because of all your LIKINGS. Its not really a LIKE in the way you go about it, is it though?

The thing is that most of the people in the Legislative section, have been moved on, or just do not post anymore. To your likings!

Perhaps dragonpuff, you should take a moment to think, yes think you may have, could have, just possibly been wrong. When you LIKE a thread being shut down, and then tell the same guy, on VM, his thread should be closed....you might want to consider your total lack of chivalry. I suspect you do not really believe in such stuff, because you will "have to deal with No Ash More Cash, in the future. Its your job here on VU, like it was on ECF.

Perhaps I am a skeptic. How about you simply go over to ECF and post that you are participating in Vaperjoes VapingUnderground.com. I bet you won't do that will you. Free flow of ideas, right?

dragonpuff, I have seen you defend ECF, CASAA, and all of the other company lines of ECF. Anyone reading the Legislation and FDA sections will have also. So I am sure you have a safe harbor on ECF forever. I am also sure that when threads get closed, You Like, when people are moved on You like. And when CASAA called Dr. Siegel a Scammer, you liked, reflected upon it, and said that Dr. Siegel should best kiss the ring of CASAA before he tries to make another study.

Enjoy the freedoms here. You get to say fuck over here, and not be considered an asshole for doing that, so when your told the same, you can be sure it's not for swearing. I hope to one day say, I read a great post by dragonpuff on VU.

 

[Whiskey]

 

[dragonpuff]

dragonpuff, it is odd to see you here complaining about ECF. I have seen plenty of your posts. Well actually you seem to be more of a rubber stamper of others posts. When I would post, and someone would tell me to shut up, or get lost, or whatever means they could do to discourage discussion, you were right in there with your LIKES. So when No Ash More Cash says he was not all too thrilled with you liking the closing down of his thread....I see it as just you doing your standard thing, as you say your job.

That is what a lot of stuff is like on ECF. A post by someone, not taken well for whatever resaon, so someone writes back, and then you and a bunch of other people like the post. A little lynch mob of Likers, and you probably have 10-1 likes to your actual posts.

When you call another poster as Vindictive, its another thing I recognize from you dragonpuff. All the fake outrage.... a bunch of LIKERS, one says delete the post, YOU LIKE, another says, that poster should go to a different forum, or just go away, YOU LIKE.....Get a reaction from the OP, and then ask the MODs to ban them.......its what you do....you got that job to do. It won't work here, the "how dare you" game does not work here. Your 2nd post here started the how dare you, I will remember that....its standard stuff, right?

dragonpuff I recognize your name because of all your LIKINGS. Its not really a LIKE in the way you go about it, is it though?

The thing is that most of the people in the Legislative section, have been moved on, or just do not post anymore. To your likings!

Perhaps dragonpuff, you should take a moment to think, yes think you may have, could have, just possibly been wrong. When you LIKE a thread being shut down, and then tell the same guy, on VM, his thread should be closed....you might want to consider your total lack of chivalry. I suspect you do not really believe in such stuff, because you will "have to deal with No Ash More Cash, in the future. Its your job here on VU, like it was on ECF.

Perhaps I am a skeptic. How about you simply go over to ECF and post that you are participating in Vaperjoes VapingUnderground.com. I bet you won't do that will you. Free flow of ideas, right?

dragonpuff, I have seen you defend ECF, CASAA, and all of the other company lines of ECF. Anyone reading the Legislation and FDA sections will have also. So I am sure you have a safe harbor on ECF forever. I am also sure that when threads get closed, You Like, when people are moved on You like. And when CASAA called Dr. Siegel a Scammer, you liked, reflected upon it, and said that Dr. Siegel should best kiss the ring of CASAA before he tries to make another study.

Enjoy the freedoms here. You get to say fuck over here, and not be considered an asshole for doing that, so when your told the same, you can be sure it's not for swearing. I hope to one day say, I read a great post by dragonpuff on VU.

Tom Baker, I have not had the privilege though I have heard of you. Good to meet you

A few things:

When I like something, it simply means I liked it. No more, no less. It doesn't necessarily mean I am a "rubber stamper" - if I like something that a lot of other people happen to like, then so be it. I have plenty of my own opinions, I don't need to borrow other peoples. But if they happen to agree with me then so be it. I don't like things as a means to an end, it isn't a game of any kind. Kind of how I don't like orange juice to support orange tree orchards or anything like that - I just like it cuz it tastes good. I don't have any kind of hidden agenda.

I was absent from ECF for 4 years, up until July. As far as I understand it, you were banned from the forum just before or around that time, so if I liked anything having to do with you specifically it would have had to have been in 2009-2010. That was a very long time ago, and I don't remember a lot of details of what went on in the forum at the time. So I can't speak to anything I've done to offend you specifically, since I only remember you as a name that pops up in old, inactive threads.

I don't have issue so much with No Ash getting mad at me for liking his thread being closed, that is understandable, I have issue with the way he went about it. Hence the argument you see going on.

I AM a supporter of CASAA, because they are fighting for our right to vape legally. I'm not going to apologize for that. I will take issue with them if I disagree with something they have done, but I have yet to have a reason to disagree.

I have some issues with ECF, and I may feel the need to blow off steam from time to time about it. I do support them for the most part though, because, like CASAA, they've done a lot for the community. I still have some friends over there and I don't plan on leaving entirely, I just need other places to go as well.

If you don't support either of them, that is fine with me. That's a personal choice.

About Dr. Siegel, you may want to read into that thread a little further - I initially supported his study and even put a direct link in one of my articles for people to donate. I was pretty severely outnumbered in that as well. I later retracted my position because I realized that that study was the wrong way to go, at least for right now. Since then he has done a few other things I disagree with, like calling for a ban on all smokeless tobacco in MLB on the presumption that it causes mouth cancer. Simply put, when he does something I agree with I'll support him, when he doesn't I won't.

In other words, if I disagree with the majority vote and feel strongly about it, I will say so. I have rubbed more than a few people the wrong way because of that, and that is fine.

Tbh I'm not totally sure if a lot of what you're accusing me of actually applies to me, or if you're just lumping me in with other people I agree with sometimes? Especially since you haven't actually been on ECF in a while... either way, it is not true.

That said...

You do have a point... and so I will say: No Ash, I'm sorry I offended you by liking your deleted thread. It was kind of a dick move, and it was unnecessary. More so than that, it doesn't make sense for me to support closing your thread while being against excessive censorship at the same time. That is hypocritical, and I hate hypocrisy.

However, the next time you have issue with me will you please just talk to me?? I am usually a pretty reasonable person, but I will get defensive if I feel like I'm being attacked, just like anybody else would.

 

[No Ash More Cash]

 

[Whiskey]

LMAO, love that one!!!!

 

[No Ash More Cash]

dragonpuff, it is odd to see you here complaining about ECF. I have seen plenty of your posts. Well actually you seem to be more of a rubber stamper of others posts. When I would post, and someone would tell me to shut up, or get lost, or whatever means they could do to discourage discussion, you were right in there with your LIKES. So when No Ash More Cash says he was not all too thrilled with you liking the closing down of his thread....I see it as just you doing your standard thing, as you say your job.

That is what a lot of stuff is like on ECF. A post by someone, not taken well for whatever resaon, so someone writes back, and then you and a bunch of other people like the post. A little lynch mob of Likers, and you probably have 10-1 likes to your actual posts.

When you call another poster as Vindictive, its another thing I recognize from you dragonpuff. All the fake outrage.... a bunch of LIKERS, one says delete the post, YOU LIKE, another says, that poster should go to a different forum, or just go away, YOU LIKE.....Get a reaction from the OP, and then ask the MODs to ban them.......its what you do....you got that job to do. It won't work here, the "how dare you" game does not work here. Your 2nd post here started the how dare you, I will remember that....its standard stuff, right?

dragonpuff I recognize your name because of all your LIKINGS. Its not really a LIKE in the way you go about it, is it though?

The thing is that most of the people in the Legislative section, have been moved on, or just do not post anymore. To your likings!

Perhaps dragonpuff, you should take a moment to think, yes think you may have, could have, just possibly been wrong. When you LIKE a thread being shut down, and then tell the same guy, on VM, his thread should be closed....you might want to consider your total lack of chivalry. I suspect you do not really believe in such stuff, because you will "have to deal with No Ash More Cash, in the future. Its your job here on VU, like it was on ECF.

Perhaps I am a skeptic. How about you simply go over to ECF and post that you are participating in Vaperjoes VapingUnderground.com. I bet you won't do that will you. Free flow of ideas, right?

dragonpuff, I have seen you defend ECF, CASAA, and all of the other company lines of ECF. Anyone reading the Legislation and FDA sections will have also. So I am sure you have a safe harbor on ECF forever. I am also sure that when threads get closed, You Like, when people are moved on You like. And when CASAA called Dr. Siegel a Scammer, you liked, reflected upon it, and said that Dr. Siegel should best kiss the ring of CASAA before he tries to make another study.

Enjoy the freedoms here. You get to say fuck over here, and not be considered an asshole for doing that, so when your told the same, you can be sure it's not for swearing. I hope to one day say, I read a great post by dragonpuff on VU.

As far as I know she could of been the person complaining about my thread......Being Mod and Admin over the years I have seen many things where I have been...WTF is wrong with this person...Anyway back to LaLa Land (ECF)...The words "vapingunderground.com" is censored over there

 

[No Ash More Cash]

LMAO, love that one!!!!

 

[Whiskey]

First one my favorite

 

[No Ash More Cash]

First one my favorite

I laughed too...I still watch that show when it's on

 

[No Ash More Cash]

Tom Baker, I have not had the privilege though I have heard of you. Good to meet you

A few things:

When I like something, it simply means I liked it. No more, no less. It doesn't necessarily mean I am a "rubber stamper" - if I like something that a lot of other people happen to like, then so be it. I have plenty of my own opinions, I don't need to borrow other peoples. But if they happen to agree with me then so be it. I don't like things as a means to an end, it isn't a game of any kind. Kind of how I don't like orange juice to support orange tree orchards or anything like that - I just like it cuz it tastes good. I don't have any kind of hidden agenda.

I was absent from ECF for 4 years, up until July. As far as I understand it, you were banned from the forum just before or around that time, so if I liked anything having to do with you specifically it would have had to have been in 2009-2010. That was a very long time ago, and I don't remember a lot of details of what went on in the forum at the time. So I can't speak to anything I've done to offend you specifically, since I only remember you as a name that pops up in old, inactive threads.

I don't have issue so much with No Ash getting mad at me for liking his thread being closed, that is understandable, I have issue with the way he went about it. Hence the argument you see going on.

I AM a supporter of CASAA, because they are fighting for our right to vape legally. I'm not going to apologize for that. I will take issue with them if I disagree with something they have done, but I have yet to have a reason to disagree.

I have some issues with ECF, and I may feel the need to blow off steam from time to time about it. I do support them for the most part though, because, like CASAA, they've done a lot for the community. I still have some friends over there and I don't plan on leaving entirely, I just need other places to go as well.

If you don't support either of them, that is fine with me. That's a personal choice.

About Dr. Siegel, you may want to read into that thread a little further - I initially supported his study and even put a direct link in one of my articles for people to donate. I was pretty severely outnumbered in that as well. I later retracted my position because I realized that that study was the wrong way to go, at least for right now. Since then he has done a few other things I disagree with, like calling for a ban on all smokeless tobacco in MLB on the presumption that it causes mouth cancer. Simply put, when he does something I agree with I'll support him, when he doesn't I won't.

In other words, if I disagree with the majority vote and feel strongly about it, I will say so. I have rubbed more than a few people the wrong way because of that, and that is fine.

Tbh I'm not totally sure if a lot of what you're accusing me of actually applies to me, or if you're just lumping me in with other people I agree with sometimes? Especially since you haven't actually been on ECF in a while... either way, it is not true.

That said...

You do have a point... and so I will say: No Ash, I'm sorry I offended you by liking your deleted thread. It was kind of a dick move, and it was unnecessary. More so than that, it doesn't make sense for me to support closing your thread while being against excessive censorship at the same time. That is hypocritical, and I hate hypocrisy.

However, the next time you have issue with me will you please just talk to me?? I am usually a pretty reasonable person, but I will get defensive if I feel like I'm being attacked, just like anybody else would.

Taken and Will do...But I did send you a Pm from my first post stating I was sorry for coming off Rude and where I was coming from with that post...the only reason I carried on here was to your reply...Lets just say you didn't see the PM first and leave it at that....I will be starting a FDA GMO thread here so be free to have a say in it or a look or you don't have to read/see/say one thing I can't force you too or for that matter anyone...it will just be there...BTW "Dragonpuff" is taken as a trade mark...you want to buy it?...JK.... anyway Good luck with that!

 

[dragonpuff]

Taken and Will do...But I did send you a Pm from my first post stating I was sorry for coming off Rude and where I was coming from with that post...the only reason I carried on here was to your reply...Lets just say you didn't see the PM first and leave it at that....I will be starting a FDA GMO thread here so be free to have a say in it or a look or you don't have to read/see/say one thing I can't force you too or for that matter anyone...it will just be there...BTW "Dragonpuff" is taken as a trade mark...you want to buy it?...JK.... anyway Good luck with that!

Right on no worries.

Since you clearly read that deleted thread, I'm not worried about the name, because that business won't last lol!

And fwiw, I did not complain about you, nor do I like posts in an effort to push people off of ECF (honestly I didn't even know that was a thing...), I just disagreed with you is all, and I clearly went about it the wrong way. I just wanted to make that clear, I'm not involved in anything over there besides talking to people and staying on top of the news.

 

[vaporchaos]

Not really a ecf refugee but I checked it out. .


First - joining here was easier

2nd- is this fucking uncensored?

I'm on other forums that are usually over moderated and you see ***** everywhere...

 

[No Ash More Cash]

Right on no worries.

Since you clearly read that deleted thread, I'm not worried about the name, because that business won't last lol!

And fwiw, I did not complain about you, nor do I like posts in an effort to push people off of ECF (honestly I didn't even know that was a thing...), I just disagreed with you is all, and I clearly went about it the wrong way. I just wanted to make that clear, I'm not involved in anything over there besides talking to people and staying on top of the news.

That was the thread that got deleted?..Google cache can be your friend

 

[fq06]

No ash more cash and dragonpuff put their differences to the side... for now

 

[No Ash More Cash]

No ash more cash and dragonpuff put their differences to the side... for now

I see what you did there with the "For now"

 

[fq06]

 

[tombaker]

Taken and Will do...But I did send you a Pm from my first post stating I was sorry for coming off Rude and where I was coming from with that post...the only reason I carried on here was to your reply...Lets just say you didn't see the PM first and leave it at that....I will be starting a FDA GMO thread here so be free to have a say in it or a look or you don't have to read/see/say one thing I can't force you too or for that matter anyone...it will just be there...BTW "Dragonpuff" is taken as a trade mark...you want to buy it?...JK.... anyway Good luck with that!

Yours and DragonPuff's posts here are a perfect example of why ECF and the way their Moderators handle themselves are terrible. If they would have saw the way this was going early, they would have warned people, suspended for using swear words, and when and if the people were ever allowed back, or usually the one person is allowed back, it can never be resolved.

Here, some insults, tame ones, everyone looks around, nobody stopping anything, a few more beers, a tank refill, and we get resolution.
ECF censorship, stops people from sharing conflicting ideas. Stops the discussions. Stops the ability for adults to drive it to completion.

Flame wars used to be great sport, participants put on Flame Retardant Suits, had at it, spectators would stand back.....the eventually would run out of flames, just smoldering sticks, the match would end with ceremonial, "Fuck You", with the proper reply of "Yeah Fuck you too". Everyone would move to the next thread....nobody got hurt feelings.

 

[tombaker]

About Dr. Siegel, you may want to read into that thread a little further - I initially supported his study and even put a direct link in one of my articles for people to donate. I was pretty severely outnumbered in that as well. I later retracted my position because I realized that that study was the wrong way to go, at least for right now. Since then he has done a few other things I disagree with, like calling for a ban on all smokeless tobacco in MLB on the presumption that it causes mouth cancer. Simply put, when he does something I agree with I'll support him, when he doesn't I won't.

In other words, if I disagree with the majority vote and feel strongly about it, I will say so. I have rubbed more than a few people the wrong way because of that, and that is fine.

when it comes to CASAA vs Siegel. Dr. Siegel proposed a study which could well be what the FDA is needing. CASAA looked at the costs, and said they would rather have that money come into them, or any other advocacy group. They also said the study may not present the best case for Vapers. They wanted the study changed, to change the potential results. CASAA came out against the study. Said Dr. Siegel was a scammer, was behaving unethical in his approach, and called him an zealot, an ANTZ.

CASAA thinking its all about them, read Dr. Siegel's blog as only being about CASAA. Smokeless Tobacco has many harms, not just cancer. But CASAA thinks Smokeless Tobacco is safer than Vaping. These actions by CASAA, and what they are typical of there approach, is why I think their advocacy has simply not gained traction with where it counts, government and the FDA.

The studies that CASAA often uses are based off mortality. This is not a good measure of total harm. It measures MAXIMUM harm. If a person is treated, and they have their jaw removed, and live, its not counted in a mortality rate. You can get some folks who work for Big Tobacco, now and/or in the past, and put them on the board of CASAA, and have them advocate for Smokeless Tobacco, and also toss in Vaping as a sidelight....play with studies, much like a Glantz does, come up with Smokeless is safer than Vaping....but its not going to be bought by the FDA. Or me. Or the country and its voters.

That is what you liked/wrote http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...michael-siegels-new-study-9.html#post14250975 CASAA board members were happy to see you change your views. They had a LIKE fest over your post. Just realize that what I just wrote, IS PROHIBITED SPEECH ON ECF.

Dr. Siegel is a heavy weight amongst actual scientists in Tobacco related items. Yes he is against Analogs combustion, and Analog Oral ST. But he is clearly Pro Vaping.

Your error, and not unique to you....is you don't understand how Vaping is undermined by Smokeless Tobacco arguments that CASAA has, and uses.

DragonPuff you think that analog oral Smokeless does not cause cancer. You are wrong. The best you can scientifically support, is it does not cause as much cancer as Smoking. Much less cancer. Just a wee bit of cancer, only a thousand or so die, others live through treatments, levels is your best case, or there abouts.

Here is the difference, and let me shout it out as big as possible, because its why I think CASAA is so messed up. VAPING DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER, IT DOES NOT CONTAIN ITEMS WHICH ARE EXPECTED TO CAUSE CANCER.......CHEWING TOBACCO DOES, ITS BEEN SHOWN TO CAUSE CANCER.....HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT VAPING BEST, IF YOU ARE SAYING VAPING IS NOT AS SAFE AS A PRODUCT THAT CAUSES CANCER (just a wee bit of cancer is still cancer).

 

[Giraut]

VAPING DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER,

Yet.

We'll know for sure in 10 or 20 years, when statistical data starts coming in. Cancer can take that long to appear in a section of the population that does something the rest of the population doesn't, and studies to link the occurrence of certain types of cancers with that something are long-winded.

IT DOES NOT CONTAIN ITEMS WHICH ARE EXPECTED TO CAUSE CANCER.......

Exactly, you said it yourself: vaping is not *expected* to cause cancer. But ultimately at this point in time, it's all conjecture. It's too early to know for sure. We only have early evidence that the immediate deleterious health effects of smoking tobacco don't occur in vapers, and vapers themselves have empirical evidence (i.e. they feel better). But for cancer, we just don't know yet. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if acrolein - which is produced if you run your coil a bit too hot, even if you can't feel it, and more importantly, the flavorings used in juices cause a spike in cancer within the next two decades.

 

[FM696269]

i take it ECF is shit then?

 

[Warhawk-AVG]

i take it ECF is shit then?

Didn't start that way, but with bad moderation...it has become something many do not enjoy

 

[dragonpuff]

when it comes to CASAA vs Siegel. Dr. Siegel proposed a study which could well be what the FDA is needing. CASAA looked at the costs, and said they would rather have that money come into them, or any other advocacy group. They also said the study may not present the best case for Vapers. They wanted the study changed, to change the potential results. CASAA came out against the study. Said Dr. Siegel was a scammer, was behaving unethical in his approach, and called him an zealot, an ANTZ.

CASAA thinking its all about them, read Dr. Siegel's blog as only being about CASAA. Smokeless Tobacco has many harms, not just cancer. But CASAA thinks Smokeless Tobacco is safer than Vaping. These actions by CASAA, and what they are typical of there approach, is why I think their advocacy has simply not gained traction with where it counts, government and the FDA.

The studies that CASAA often uses are based off mortality. This is not a good measure of total harm. It measures MAXIMUM harm. If a person is treated, and they have their jaw removed, and live, its not counted in a mortality rate. You can get some folks who work for Big Tobacco, now and/or in the past, and put them on the board of CASAA, and have them advocate for Smokeless Tobacco, and also toss in Vaping as a sidelight....play with studies, much like a Glantz does, come up with Smokeless is safer than Vaping....but its not going to be bought by the FDA. Or me. Or the country and its voters.

That is what you liked/wrote http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...michael-siegels-new-study-9.html#post14250975 CASAA board members were happy to see you change your views. They had a LIKE fest over your post. Just realize that what I just wrote, IS PROHIBITED SPEECH ON ECF.

Dr. Siegel is a heavy weight amongst actual scientists in Tobacco related items. Yes he is against Analogs combustion, and Analog Oral ST. But he is clearly Pro Vaping.

Your error, and not unique to you....is you don't understand how Vaping is undermined by Smokeless Tobacco arguments that CASAA has, and uses.

DragonPuff you think that analog oral Smokeless does not cause cancer. You are wrong. The best you can scientifically support, is it does not cause as much cancer as Smoking. Much less cancer. Just a wee bit of cancer, only a thousand or so die, others live through treatments, levels is your best case, or there abouts.

Here is the difference, and let me shout it out as big as possible, because its why I think CASAA is so messed up. VAPING DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER, IT DOES NOT CONTAIN ITEMS WHICH ARE EXPECTED TO CAUSE CANCER.......CHEWING TOBACCO DOES, ITS BEEN SHOWN TO CAUSE CANCER.....HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT VAPING BEST, IF YOU ARE SAYING VAPING IS NOT AS SAFE AS A PRODUCT THAT CAUSES CANCER (just a wee bit of cancer is still cancer).

The problem I have with Dr. Siegel's recommendation to ban smokeless tobacco in MLB is twofold. First off, as you said it may cause "a wee bit of cancer," but truth be told, a lot of things can cause a wee bit of cancer. Cancer is caused by a simple genetic mutation in the cells. It is too simple to say something "does" or "does not" cause cancer - just like most anything in science, it is the amount or degree that matters. In light of that, yes smokeless tobacco is much safer than smoking. It just isn't as safe as vaping.

(Fwiw, I did not say that I believe it doesn't cause cancer; I said that I disagreed with Dr. Siegel's encouragement of a ban on the presumption that it does. I probably could have worded that better...)

That said, my issue with proclamations against smokeless tobacco is that it does discourage smokers from switching to a product that is less likely to cause them harm.

Secondly, I am against drug prohibition in any form. I don't believe it is helpful or useful to simply ban a drug - this tends to cause far more problems than it solves. I am disappointed that Dr. Siegel even made the suggestion.

I still feel that CASAA's role is important, whether or not it be a necessary evil - but we do need a lot more than just them, because they have a narrow focus and I often feel that not enough gets done when people just follow their guidelines.

About Dr. Siegel's study though, the truth is that it would have taken far too long to conduct (a couple years easily for a study like that) and the results will only be marginally helpful. Given the current situation with the FDA, we don't really have that kind of time. I'm not saying the study would be useless, I'm just saying that there are other types of studies that would be quicker to conduct and be more useful to us right now. I am glad to see that he is now seeking industry funding though, because if we cross the next few legislative hurdles unscathed, his study results could be useful to us then.

 

[tombaker]

The problem I have with Dr. Siegel's recommendation to ban smokeless tobacco in MLB is twofold. First off, as you said it may cause "a wee bit of cancer," but truth be told, a lot of things can cause a wee bit of cancer. Cancer is caused by a simple genetic mutation in the cells. It is too simple to say something "does" or "does not" cause cancer - just like most anything in science, it is the amount or degree that matters. In light of that, yes smokeless tobacco is much safer than smoking. It just isn't as safe as vaping.

(Fwiw, I did not say that I believe it doesn't cause cancer; I said that I disagreed with Dr. Siegel's encouragement of a ban on the presumption that it does. I probably could have worded that better...)

That said, my issue with proclamations against smokeless tobacco is that it does discourage smokers from switching to a product that is less likely to cause them harm.

Secondly, I am against drug prohibition in any form. I don't believe it is helpful or useful to simply ban a drug - this tends to cause far more problems than it solves. I am disappointed that Dr. Siegel even made the suggestion.

I still feel that CASAA's role is important, whether or not it be a necessary evil - but we do need a lot more than just them, because they have a narrow focus and I often feel that not enough gets done when people just follow their guidelines.

About Dr. Siegel's study though, the truth is that it would have taken far too long to conduct (a couple years easily for a study like that) and the results will only be marginally helpful. Given the current situation with the FDA, we don't really have that kind of time. I'm not saying the study would be useless, I'm just saying that there are other types of studies that would be quicker to conduct and be more useful to us right now. I am glad to see that he is now seeking industry funding though, because if we cross the next few legislative hurdles unscathed, his study results could be useful to us then.

to not hijack the thread further, I can just say, if we were to have this discussion on ECF, your position would be allowed, and mine, said the same way, would be warned....if I would continue to make the case.....I would be banned....for something they call spoiling for a fight. ECF controls the content. A person Roger Lafayette who was clearly at odds with me, and at least good natured in his rippings at me.....when I went back to look....he is now banned from ECF. Have no idea why. But he was tossed away, on to the rest of moved on. I think it was pony here that first posted this. It was amazing to me because its from 4 years ago. Its only got worse.

 

[jovial_evil]

at least i can have my whole username here - and twisted is here? fuck'n a. looks like the right place for me

This is the right place. Can't say enough about the quality of people here.

 

[dragonpuff]

to not hijack the thread further, I can just say, if we were to have this discussion on ECF, your position would be allowed, and mine, said the same way, would be warned....if I would continue to make the case.....I would be banned....for something they call spoiling for a fight. ECF controls the content. A person Roger Lafayette who was clearly at odds with me, and at least good natured in his rippings at me.....when I went back to look....he is now banned from ECF. Have no idea why. But he was tossed away, on to the rest of moved on. I think it was pony here that first posted this. It was amazing to me because its from 4 years ago. Its only got worse.

They clearly control the content, but I'm not sure they control it to the extent you say. I don't take anything at face value though, I'm still there so I'll keep my eyes open and see if I spot a pattern.

Fwiw, it always bothered me that it says right in their list of rules (which is more like a book) that you're not allowed to criticize how the site is run openly - you have to pm a moderator. That is very strange, and it speaks to top down control. Absolute power corrupts absolutely...

 

[RZAwora]

Dude this post is right on point. Glad to be here on this forum now, and not over there as much anymore. I still check it out every now and again, but I'm not active over there. I plan on being around here much more now that I found this place. This community seems awesome so far.

 

[bigdaddybrink1]

Been a memeber there for what seems like forever. Time to move on, move up...move over???

 

[tombaker]

Been a memeber there for what seems like forever. Time to move on, move up...move over???

move on....or you will say something that does not match the views of classwife, retired1, rolygate, and the will block you out, and stamp your ID with "moved on" The worst is all your PMs, you will be locked out of communicating, and you will be locked out from ever seeing them again. They don't need to do that, they COULD just block you from posting. They dictate the communications, but profess they are a "community".

Some say they have a right to control bad speech....sure....but they also have a ban on even mentioning VaporJoe or the name of this forum.
Its a real shame, because there does remain a bunch of good information there, and many great members still.

 

[bigdaddybrink1]

@tombaker good point. there is good info, but getting blocked out or even the extreme censorship is bs. glad to have stumbled across the site. now, i gotta start all over with gettin to kno ppl.........meh, could be fun!!

 

[Whiskey]

@tombaker good point. there is good info, but getting blocked out or even the extreme censorship is bs. glad to have stumbled across the site. now, i gotta start all over with gettin to kno ppl.........meh, could be fun!!

Ours surpasses theirs and so does our "community" Hands down

 

[bigdaddybrink1]

Ours surpasses theirs and so does our "community" Hands down

thus far, i've only been a memeber less than 12 hours and already feel that way. so...........hell yes!! gald to b here!

 

[steelgirl]

For me, I hate the term Electronic Cigarette or E-Cig, or any other term in conjunction to cigarette. Vaping, however is exactly the correct terminology. As far as the forum goes... I'll probably look in on them from time to time. But as another post suggested, ya ask a simple question and the responses ya get are made to make ya feel either stupid or if you don't spent $$$$ ya aint vapin' right. Or if ya aren't sporting a .001 coil in your RDA, ya aint vapi' right. And whats up with all the "games" they play??? I haven't figured those out. Maybe entertaining to some peeps, I guess. Glad I found this site. found it via a e-juice recipe web site.

 

[MKPM]

Ours surpasses theirs and so does our "community" Hands down muh pants yo.

Hands down YER OWN PANTS MOD! *I am SO gonna hear about this later*

 

[bigdaddybrink1]

well, when i hear bout ECF now, all i say is:

Being sincere what is ecf?

I didnt see anyone reply, ECF is an out dated over censored forum, the full name is e-cigarette-forum.com

edit:
damn it. saw after i replied......shit a brick.

 

[bigdaddybrink1]

I've been a memeber less than 2 days at this point.
i feel more at 'home' here than there already.............

 

[galsvapetoo]

I am not but welcome to the underground

 

[moecat]

Hands down YER OWN PANTS MOD! *I am SO gonna hear about this later*

Too much I could say

Nothing very good

NEXT

 

[Liu]

But as another post suggested, ya ask a simple question and the responses ya get are made to make ya feel either stupid or if you don't spent $$$$ ya aint vapin' right. Or if ya aren't sporting a .001 coil in your RDA, ya aint vapi' right.

Both of these attitudes are among the worst things you can tell a new vaper. Sure a $300 regulated tube and a $180 tank is a damn good vape, but it's not necessary, and it's too damn much money to ask everyone to just drop on the counter on the word of some faceless commenter...

I won't even start on handing somebody with no knowledge of electronics a mech/rba combo with a 70 amp build over a China re-wrap battery...

 

[Winston]

this is how ridiculous ECF is. I posted on a thread trying to give a starter kit away for FREE and they banned me for life. Glad i gave it to someone from VU.

 

[galsvapetoo]

It's like a little holiday with Hitler
This is the shit just got real face

 

[Diescum88]

It's like a little holiday with Hitler View attachment 12493
This is the shit just got real face

Sadly I think you'd have a better time with hitler lol

 

[vaperature]

One time someone started a thread, the gist of it was "I don't vape but want to know what you all are using to vape with."

I asked a very logical question: "If you don't vape, why do you want to know? Are you writing a school paper?"

My comment gets deleted and I get a warning from a mod telling me: "You are clearly itching for a fight. Knock it off!!"

Need I say more?

 

[Woody213]

Ecf refugee here. Still bomb over occasionally for contests but thats about it. Got an infraction for mentioning removed in a conversation about what annoys you with people when they see you vaping. Then I got tired of all the damn, your going to blow yourself up crap. One thing I know is batteries. Did RC planes for years and the crap they did with batteries was crazy. I got ripped when I asked about a battery that wasn't whatever they approve of. Plus they arent to helpful its really provari fanboys everywhere. I was talking about mech mods and got people telling me to get a provari. Plus I love that you guys to pussy around the fuckin swearing.

 

[Whiskey]

Yea, I hear you Woody, but because of the bad rap vaping gets when talked about with vaping things other than nic juice most of your predominant forums are not going to allow posts drug related, which is understandable and which is the case here as well, Welcome to VU