Flavorah

[Smoky Blue]

What I find interesting was that FEMA sent out that tired old warning to a number of flavoring companies just about the same time Flavorah got going, which appears to be backed by one of the larger flavoring manufacturers (MM) which might be doing research into inhalation of their flavors. Coincedence?

is why i say... interesting bits and pieces remind me of that other company too..

the way the flavoring is "created" but yet not by them..

so "Flavorah" is yet another flavor cutting lab run operation..

after 3 yrs and 5k in flavors.. i might just have to sit this one out.. sorry..
i am running out of room, and happy with what I play with atm..
should that change, tho.. never know..

but i think if i did go with someone else.. I'd pick something more organic.

 

[RocketPuppy]

@lirruping - returnity said they received a huge box with 20 plus freebies. Did you get samples of anything beyond what you ordered?

 

[RocketPuppy]

our manufacture has adequate staff in house to put together the MSDS rather than hire an outside consultant.

We receive paperwork certifying the ingredients of each batch we receive as compliant and traceable on the GRAS list. The certificate is signed by the chief scientist, and included with the most recent MSDS. This process is in place for all food grade flavorings.
.....
We are staying ahead of this trend by working with our manufacture to select flavoring that will meet future vapor regulations. We are not producing multi-purpose flavors for candy, baking, and vapor, rather, we are producing concentrated flavorings for vapor. This is one reason our manufacturer is conducting independent toxicology testing on flavors to improve them and make them more amenable to the best practices of vaping.

It is common practice for a company's staff to write their MSDS. What is not common is relying on the same company's scientists to certify that the information is factual. From what I'm reading here, the research and certification is done in house.

I am not asking for published reports of ingredients, but third party verification of an MSDS is essential. Without it, MM can claim anything they want.

 

[returnity]

It is common practice for a company's staff to write their MSDS. What is not common is relying on the same company's scientists to certify that the information is factual. From what I'm reading here, the research and certification is done in house.

I am not asking for published reports of ingredients, but third party verification of an MSDS is essential. Without it, MM can claim anything they want.

Does TFA not do their MSDS the same way? I'm not aware of MM or other flavorists generally operating any differently than this? Any insight you can offer would be appreciated.

Edit: I have NO idea why I got so much bonus stuff, btw. It may have something to do with the fact that I'm a very prolific contributor on reddit's DIY sub, and so I'd be a good target to give them visibility. In any case, I'm pretty appreciative about it but I wouldn't expect it to be standard practice. If you order with the reddit+ promo, expect another free 7-pack. If you order with the VUG promo, expect 4 free extra bottles. Anything else is pure luck.

 

[lirruping]

@lirruping - returnity said they received a huge box with 20 plus freebies. Did you get samples of anything beyond what you ordered?

Nope. I just got what I ordered. When I wrote to Shoreline this afternoon about the leaking, however, he got back to me quickly saying he would replace the opened bottles and send samples of the flavors in the line I didn't already receive--which would be seven more. So that was pretty stand-up.

 

[RocketPuppy]

Like other companies, their flavors are trade secrets. Their posted component lists are specific, but they don't give out the ratios and specifications.

 

[RocketPuppy]

https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/componentlist.aspx?sku_search=345796

 

[RocketPuppy]

Nope. I just got what I ordered. When I wrote to Shoreline this afternoon about the leaking, however, he got back to me quickly saying he would replace the opened bottles and send samples of the flavors in the line I didn't already receive--which would be seven more. So that was pretty stand-up.

That's great customer service. @returnity - how'd you end up getting so much?

 

[Shoreline]

Edit: I have NO idea why I got so much bonus stuff, btw. It may have something to do with the fact that I'm a very prolific contributor on reddit's DIY sub, and so I'd be a good target to give them visibility. In any case, I'm pretty appreciative about it but I wouldn't expect it to be standard practice. If you order with the reddit+ promo, expect another free 7-pack. If you order with the VUG promo, expect 4 free extra bottles. Anything else is pure luck.

@returnity I kind of stumbled into sending you all those freebies. Since you had emailed me before ordering and I knew that you were curious, I thought it couldn't hurt to set you up with the samples. When I know people are flavor-curious and we are sending a package their way... hey, why not!?

I did offer @HeadInClouds a pack directly. But otherwise I guess it was just your lucky day

 

[RocketPuppy]

Isn't everyone here flavor curious?

 

[RocketPuppy]

is why i say... interesting bits and pieces remind me of that other company too..

the way the flavoring is "created" but yet not by them..

so "Flavorah" is yet another flavor cutting lab run operation..

after 3 yrs and 5k in flavors.. i might just have to sit this one out.. sorry..
i am running out of room, and happy with what I play with atm..
should that change, tho.. never know..

but i think if i did go with someone else.. I'd pick something more organic.

I thought NicVape created their own flavors.

 

[lirruping]

I thought NicVape created their own flavors.

@Smoky Blue , yeah, I thought so too.

What does that mean, "flavor cutting lab run operation"? I thought shoreline explained they didn't cut their flavors--or am I misunderstanding your use of the word "cutting" in this context?

I can understand having enough flavors and wanting to try something more organic, but I'm honestly totally confused about point of your comment, quoted above in rocketpuppy's post:

"the way the flavoring is "created" but yet not by them..
so "Flavorah" is yet another flavor cutting lab run operation.."

 

[Shoreline]

Thank you @Shoreline - appreciate all the info! But, no good deed goes unpunished, so I'll toss out a few more questions for your consideration whenever you have the opportunity:

1. Do you have the ability to design or tweak a MM flavor to make the flavor profile be better suited for vaping?
2. Do you see Flavorah developing multi-flavor mixes in the future (as OneStop DIY has done with their OneStop Blends line)?
3. Long-term, do you expect to stay with offering just flavors, or are you looking to be a soup-to-nuts DIY vendor, offering high quality nic, VG, PG, additives, etc.?

1. Yes.
2. No. We will leave this up to the DIYer and the small batch mixers with their own recipes.
3. We are staying with just vaping flavors and will wholesale our product line for small batch ejuice makers and the "soup-to-nuts" DIY vendors.

*when I say "small batch" I mean single flavor/single nic batches less than 20 gallons.

 

[returnity]

@returnity I kind of stumbled into sending you all those freebies. Since you had emailed me before ordering and I knew that you were curious, I thought it couldn't hurt to set you up with the samples. When I know people are flavor-curious and we are sending a package their way... hey, why not!?

I did offer @HeadInClouds a pack directly. But otherwise I guess it was just your lucky day

Hey man, by no means am I complaining lol! I just wanted to clarify for everyone that a) I had no special relation to you guys & b) not to expect 3X your order as standard practice. Thank you for hooking me up though, I fully intend to make good use of the extras and vape forward whichever ones I'm not a fan of once I've tested them, if I won't be using them. I'll of course be posting recipes and reviews of them as I become familiar with each one.

@RocketPuppy, I meant that TFA, to my knowledge and discussion with Linda, does their own MSDS exactly like Flavorah does. I see what you're getting at about corporate accountability, but in reality it's pretty much standard practice. I've got a good chunk of experience with flavor industry practices and methodology due to my research into Deeper DIY and mixing from base aroma chemicals rather than concentrates (see my posts on reddit), as well as my experience in the organic chemistry field as a biomedical sciences student/lab worker.

 

[lirruping]

I might purchase if I could buy a 3mL or 5mL quantity. I have invested in too many flavor lines. I can't afford to gamble on 15mL.

Nice new avatar!
Mmmm... brains

PS: if it's only a cost issue, the price is actually $2.50 per 15ml bottle, shipped when you spend $35 with the reddit promo--which is as inexpensive afaik as any vendor that does 5mls. That was definitely part of what pulled me in, and I had flavor gaps in my arsenal so I decided to just go for it.

 

[aikanae]

Thanks! My quote sounds like I'm a cheap skate. I just tossed about 75.00 worth of super concentrates. I only make liquid for me and two family members. I will follow here in case flavorah will offer a small sample pack (3-5ml).

You just "tossed out $75" worth of super concentrates???
Naw, say it ain't so.

 

[Smoky Blue]

I thought NicVape created their own flavors.

nicvape orders 50 different kinds and r&d tests them for what they like..
they are not flavor creators.. some they do mix but as far as creating, no.

@Smoky Blue , yeah, I thought so too.

What does that mean, "flavor cutting lab run operation"? I thought shoreline explained they didn't cut their flavors--or am I misunderstanding your use of the word "cutting" in this context?

I can understand having enough flavors and wanting to try something more organic, but I'm honestly totally confused about point of your comment, quoted above in rocketpuppy's post:

"the way the flavoring is "created" but yet not by them..
so "Flavorah" is yet another flavor cutting lab run operation.."

think on this, @lirruping how do you cut your 100mg nic down to your recipe?
this is how a flavor cutting lab does, too.. it makes a difference on flavor creation vs flavor cutting..
2 totally different things..

yes they can blend flavor a with flavor b to make a for instance honey-fruit blend.. but its mixing like we do..
and their flavors come in gallons and or barrels.. they can not serve it to the public like ice cream, by the scoop..
they have to cut it down from super concentrate to make it easier to us as consumers to work with.

hope this explains more..

 

[RocketPuppy]

nicvape orders 50 different kinds and r&d tests them for what they like..
they are not flavor creators.. some they do mix but as far as creating, no.

Ok. Now I'm confused. Didn't you meet their flavorist or something?

 

[Smoky Blue]

Ok. Now I'm confused. Didn't you meet their flavorist or something?

yes... I took the tour they offered, met all the staff and employees..
i know i said i did that here.. and they explained in detail how and what they did and why.

Their chemist/mixer has 10 yrs of chemistry..

 

[lirruping]

nicvape orders 50 different kinds and r&d tests them for what they like..
they are not flavor creators.. some they do mix but as far as creating, no.

think on this, @lirruping how do you cut your 100mg nic down to your recipe?
this is how a flavor cutting lab does, too.. it makes a difference on flavor creation vs flavor cutting..
2 totally different things..

yes they can blend flavor a with flavor b to make a for instance honey-fruit blend.. but its mixing like we do..
and their flavors come in gallons and or barrels.. they can not serve it to the public like ice cream, by the scoop..
they have to cut it down from super concentrate to make it easier to us as consumers to work with.

hope this explains more..

Ok, I think I understand now - you're saying that Flavorah (like NicVape and many other flavor vendors, I guess) are on one of the middle links of the flavor supply chain. But that in Flavorah's case they choose and then dilute flavor, rather than choose, dilute AND compound flavors.

It seemed to have a negative implication the way you phrased it, but I'm not sure you meant it that way. Unless there is something wrong with being a middleman in this sense? It is a different and maybe more limited function than something like what TFA (or certainly, FA) does. But Shoreline did say that his focus is on other things besides blending: choosing flavors that will appeal specifically to vapers and providing them in a form that will be ideal for mixing. These are not the main priorities of other companies and seem to be what might distinguish Flavorah in terms of mission and scope of project.

E.g., Shoreline said in his first long post in this thread:

"As a startup, we are essentially entering the market after the proverbial “dust has settled” and designing our product from the ground up for vaping. As you probably know from being part of this forum, a lot of the flavors that people have ended up using for DIY over the last couple years were never intended for ejuice, but because MM is willing to work with us, and others in the vaping market we are getting better and better results.

For instance, I have been working directly with MM’s to give Flavorah an edge when dealing with Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, and Acetoin. They have done the research and we (Flavorah) are hoping to eliminate these completely from some of our flavors this year, and to add new flavors that are D/A/AP free for vapor."

He also mentioned something about setting up his company in such a way so that it will survive upcoming regulatory changes... ok, here it is:

"Eventually the FDA may have a review process for ejuice producers, possibly requiring them to disclose their flavor components and other ingredients for inspection or tracing. There would have to be a new “GRAS” list for vapor products. The problem becomes, as a small batch ejuice maker in the future, what are the sources of your primary components? If your flavors are compounded from many different sources, made from unregulated extractions, or difficult to trace, it could be more difficult to achieve compliance in the future if the FDA steps in.

Flavorah is positioned to help DIY and Small batch producers survive future regulations." (Emphasis mine).

I can't fully assess the value of this approach because I don't know enough about the industry, but taking it at face value, it seems these are pretty clearly important issues and well-worth preparing for/addressing. Maybe other companies are doing it but not talking about it, but Flavorah is the first one I've ever heard mention it.

Whatever one thinks of the FLV flavors themselves (and I can't really say yet, but will when I get off my lazy butt; also, Shoreline implied that the flavors list will be malleable with time and vaper feedback), I can appreciate the angle this company is coming at vaping from.

Just so you know, @Smoky Blue I'm really quite earnestly interested in learning more about the flavor industry and especially what the AEMSA site calls its "murky" flavor supply chain--and I know you have lots more experience & accumulated knowledge than I do. I wasn't just grilling you for the fun of it

 

[Smoky Blue]

It seemed to have a negative implication the way you phrased it, but I'm not sure you meant it that way. Unless there is something wrong with being a middleman in this sense? It is a different and maybe more limited function than something like what TFA (or certainly, FA) does. But Shoreline did say that his focus is on other things besides blending: choosing flavors that will appeal specifically to vapers and providing them in a form that will be ideal for mixing. These are not the main priorities of other companies and seem to be what might distinguish Flavorah in terms of mission and scope of project.

E.g., Shoreline said in his first long post in this thread:

"As a startup, we are essentially entering the market after the proverbial “dust has settled” and designing our product from the ground up for vaping. As you probably know from being part of this forum, a lot of the flavors that people have ended up using for DIY over the last couple years were never intended for ejuice, but because MM is willing to work with us, and others in the vaping market we are getting better and better results.

For instance, I have been working directly with MM’s to give Flavorah an edge when dealing with Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl, and Acetoin. They have done the research and we (Flavorah) are hoping to eliminate these completely from some of our flavors this year, and to add new flavors that are D/A/AP free for vapor."

He also mentioned something about setting up his company in such a way so that it will survive upcoming regulatory changes... ok, here it is:

"Eventually the FDA may have a review process for ejuice producers, possibly requiring them to disclose their flavor components and other ingredients for inspection or tracing. There would have to be a new “GRAS” list for vapor products. The problem becomes, as a small batch ejuice maker in the future, what are the sources of your primary components? If your flavors are compounded from many different sources, made from unregulated extractions, or difficult to trace, it could be more difficult to achieve compliance in the future if the FDA steps in.

Flavorah is positioned to help DIY and Small batch producers survive future regulations." (Emphasis mine).

I can't fully assess the value of this approach because I don't know enough about the industry, but taking it at face value, it seems these are pretty clearly important issues and well-worth preparing for/addressing. Maybe other companies are doing it but not talking about it, but Flavorah is the first one I've ever heard mention it.

Whatever one thinks of the FLV flavors themselves (and I can't really say yet, but will when I get off my lazy butt; also, Shoreline implied that the flavors list will be malleable with time and vaper feedback), I can appreciate the angle this company is coming at vaping from.

Just so you know, @Smoky Blue I'm really quite earnestly interested in learning more about the flavor industry and especially what the AEMSA site calls its "murky" flavor supply chain--and I know you have lots more experience & accumulated knowledge than I do. I'm wasn't just grilling you for the fun of it

@Shoreline can you back up a sec and state:

Do your flavorings meet and exceed testing for at least the big "D" and a/p? (even tho it is said here, i havent really looked into your company yet)
Have you gone beyond that testing for at least acetoin? and can you prove that to your consumers? if so, how and if not, why not? as you and I both know.. even a slight change in flavoring from the creator to the cutter, can cause something to test positive.
----------------------------

@lirruping

no worries.. and yes I have studied almost every single way to view this.. I have talked to many people involved from company owners and lab techs/chemists and lucky to call a few of whom I consider the top in this field, friends. Does my friendship effect anything? no.. but bouncing ideas from me to my friends and in an easy way, they have helped me to understand at least, what i think is important and what isn't in the grand scheme of all.. every one wants a piece of the safety first pie..

let me stop you for a sec.. food for thought..

the ecig was created here, right? but yet.. it took China to make it better, widely known and used.. How many China men women and children have you heard of that has died from vaping? not from leaving supplies out for pets or kids to die from playing or drinking it.. but seriously vaping.. common sense.. it's the big picture effect i am talking about.. no one really knows, but yet claim for rules and regs.. is it right? In some sense, again.. common sense.. for the lack of it, and morals and manners have caused it.. as well as a huge chuck of greed.

murky.. no such thing.. hidden, yes.. (Aemsa should choose better wording) when suppliers are being demanded to reveal their sources.. hmm.. tuff line to think there.. is why they call it murky.. why should i let everyone know where i get my nic, much less anything else? (just an example!) i really do not need to show and tell.. specially when there are a ton of vendors that do sell it.. but if i want to keep my vendor to myself.. I could call it "murky"..

as far as Shoreline saying "implied that the flavors list will be malleable with time and vaper feedback" yeah, they are in the same spot Nicvape and FA are, so yes.. they can manipulate flavors.. these 3 companies are attempting to show some sort of "responsibility" in hopes it will gain them better sales.. after all, it's about money.. and i really wish.. for once.. people would start thinking on the user, the consumer.. instead of just making money.. as a community, we need to stick together, stay united and show that we want and need better. it would weed out those that are only in it for money.. that is a given. More info, if a company that is new.. pops up.. they really need to do a show and tell, if they make any sort of claim..

However, in the end.. between the states fda and big tobacco and big pharma.. does all this really matter, should they choose to make it harder for someone like you or me to stop us from vaping?

 

[lirruping]

@Shoreline can you back up a sec and state:

Do your flavorings meet and exceed testing for at least the big "D" and a/p? (even tho it is said here, i havent really looked into your company yet)
Have you gone beyond that testing for at least acetoin? and can you prove that to your consumers? if so, how and if not, why not? as you and I both know.. even a slight change in flavoring from the creator to the cutter, can cause something to test positive.
----------------------------

@lirruping

no worries.. and yes I have studied almost every single way to view this.. I have talked to many people involved from company owners and lab techs/chemists and lucky to call a few of whom I consider the top in this field, friends. Does my friendship effect anything? no.. but bouncing ideas from me to my friends and in an easy way, they have helped me to understand at least, what i think is important and what isn't in the grand scheme of all.. every one wants a piece of the safety first pie..

let me stop you for a sec.. food for thought..

the ecig was created here, right? but yet.. it took China to make it better, widely known and used.. How many China men women and children have you heard of that has died from vaping? not from leaving supplies out for pets or kids to die from playing or drinking it.. but seriously vaping.. common sense.. it's the big picture effect i am talking about.. no one really knows, but yet claim for rules and regs.. is it right? In some sense, again.. common sense.. for the lack of it, and morals and manners have caused it.. as well as a huge chuck of greed.

murky.. no such thing.. hidden, yes.. (Aemsa should choose better wording) when suppliers are being demanded to reveal their sources.. hmm.. tuff line to think there.. is why they call it murky.. why should i let everyone know where i get my nic, much less anything else? (just an example!) i really do not need to show and tell.. specially when there are a ton of vendors that do sell it.. but if i want to keep my vendor to myself.. I could call it "murky"..

as far as Shoreline saying "implied that the flavors list will be malleable with time and vaper feedback" yeah, they are in the same spot Nicvape and FA are, so yes.. they can manipulate flavors.. these 3 companies are attempting to show some sort of "responsibility" in hopes it will gain them better sales.. after all, it's about money.. and i really wish.. for once.. people would start thinking on the user, the consumer.. instead of just making money.. as a community, we need to stick together, stay united and show that we want and need better. it would weed out those that are only in it for money.. that is a given. More info, if a company that is new.. pops up.. they really need to do a show and tell, if they make any sort of claim..

However, in the end.. between the states fda and big tobacco and big pharma.. does all this really matter, should they choose to make it harder for someone like you or me to stop us from vaping?

I'm cooking supper so only have a sec for now, but just regarding the questions you asked Shoreline, I think he already made it really clear in the thread and on the site that some of the flavorings have naturally occurring diacetyl and some have AP... so there have been no claims that it's free from any of that.

To me, the main thing is disclosure and a company's willingness to discuss these issues with candor, which so far, Flavorah seems to be.
Thanks for the rest of your post and I will get back to it soon!

 

[Smoky Blue]

I havent been to his site and only have glanced at this thread with what little postings i have done lately..
been busy trying to do some things, and went to VaperSlam yesterday.. what a fantastic time!!
i got to see friends i have been talking with for years.. for the first time.. and i hope many more times to come

Smoky is in recovery mode lmao..

 

[returnity]

@Smoky Blue Flavorah have specifically stated that they don't dilute their flavors. Just a minor correction to your statement, I have no issues with your other remarks & it seems we share an interest in and understanding of the industry's workings, as well as some experience working with them. I spend a lot of my spare time trying to unveil and open source the flavor creation process so more vapers can get into what of my collaborators has dubbed "Deeper DIY".

Also in regard to your other inquiry, Flavorah clearly states on their site which flavors contain trace diacetyl (iirc it's only 3) and acetoin/acetyl propionyl.

 

[Smoky Blue]

@Smoky Blue Flavorah have specifically stated that they don't dilute their flavors. Just a minor correction to your statement, I have no issues with your other remarks & it seems we share an interest in and understanding of the industry's workings, as well as some experience working with them. I spend a lot of my spare time trying to unveil and open source the flavor creation process so more vapers can get into what of my collaborators has dubbed "Deeper DIY".

Also in regard to your other inquiry, Flavorah clearly states on their site which flavors contain trace diacetyl (iirc it's only 3) and acetoin/acetyl propionyl.

@returnity .. i have yet to see the site for them.. not in any rush.. still trying to relax and enjoy my trip from yesterday lol..

but.. in all manner.. even as a flavor re seller.. one needs to be cautious.. no, they may not be "diluting" but I know from my tour with Nicvapes.. there are processes to bulk buying of flavor and cutting it down for use. could you imagine.. since you say you have experience with flavorings.. think on vz.. and how super concentrated some are.. one to two drops per 30ml! imagine if they did not "cut" not saying dilute.. what it would be like to work with that?

makes me laugh every time some company says they don't dilute.. for most of the chemical compounders do have directions in which to achieve even fa standards.. yes stock labels etc.. but think on it.. barrels of pure flavor.. just being bottled into 15-30-120ml bottles.. cant decide.. would it be flavor heaven or flavor hell?? lmao.. ahhh..

 

[returnity]

@returnity .. i have yet to see the site for them.. not in any rush.. still trying to relax and enjoy my trip from yesterday lol..

but.. in all manner.. even as a flavor re seller.. one needs to be cautious.. no, they may not be "diluting" but I know from my tour with Nicvapes.. there are processes to bulk buying of flavor and cutting it down for use. could you imagine.. since you say you have experience with flavorings.. think on vz.. and how super concentrated some are.. one to two drops per 30ml! imagine if they did not "cut" not saying dilute.. what it would be like to work with that?

makes me laugh every time some company says they don't dilute.. for most of the chemical compounders do have directions in which to achieve even fa standards.. yes stock labels etc.. but think on it.. barrels of pure flavor.. just being bottled into 15-30-120ml bottles.. cant decide.. would it be flavor heaven or flavor hell?? lmao.. ahhh..

I definitely know what you mean, I mean hell a lot of flavor compounds are used at the level of 5-100 parts PER MILLION, and some are detectable as low as tens of parts per BILLION. I deal with stuff you can only dispense using 1-10 microliter laboratory micropipettes, so I totally get what you mean. I'm just saying that Flavorah have claimed they don't further dilute the flavoring concentrates produced for the by Mother Murphy's, they bottle them in the exact same concentration in which they're originally designed and delivered to Flavorah's bottling production facility.

 

[lirruping]

murky.. no such thing.. hidden, yes.. (Aemsa should choose better wording) when suppliers are being demanded to reveal their sources.. hmm.. tuff line to think there.. is why they call it murky.. why should i let everyone know where i get my nic, much less anything else? (just an example!) i really do not need to show and tell.. specially when there are a ton of vendors that do sell it.. but if i want to keep my vendor to myself.. I could call it "murky"..

"Murky", "hidden"--whatever. I wasn't trying to read motivations into or project motivations onto anyone by using that descriptor. I was just trying to say that from my standpoint (and apparently that of others) the flavor supply chain(s) are complex, often not very transparent, and fraught with the inevitable tensions arising between flavor companies' desire to keep their intellectual property guarded and people wanting to know what they are vaping. It seems like you might be saying something similar, so, semantics aside, maybe we agree. In many cases there are creative resolutions to these kinds of problems.

as far as Shoreline saying "implied that the flavors list will be malleable with time and vaper feedback" yeah, they are in the same spot Nicvape and FA are, so yes.. they can manipulate flavors.. these 3 companies are attempting to show some sort of "responsibility" in hopes it will gain them better sales.. after all, it's about money.. and i really wish.. for once.. people would start thinking on the user, the consumer.. instead of just making money..

I'm not the world's biggest capitalist, but money is part of the equation in any business. If you haven't been through the (scant) material on Flavorah then you are trolling a bit here (surely without meaning to) by presenting a no-win situation for them--or any other company, for that matter. I see nothing wrong with "showing responsibility" for any reason--including in hopes that it will gain one customers--so long as the actual "responsibility" is there and it's not just marketing propaganda. The prospect of making money is among the most solid and reliable motivations for being responsible to one's customers. I don't think they (or anyone) should be criticized for wanting to be responsive to their market--just the opposite. Would we criticize Bob the Butcher for his honest business practices by saying, "Oh, he's not really sincere--he just behaves honestly and with candor because he wants people to trust him"? Honest practice is honest practice--period. It requires no further analysis.

However, in the end.. between the states fda and big tobacco and big pharma.. does all this really matter, should they choose to make it harder for someone like you or me to stop us from vaping?

Yes, it absolutely does matter. It's not a black or white world. Vapers are a powerful community with a powerful voice--if they exercise it. As you just said, "as a community, we need to stick together, stay united and show that we want and need better."

BTW, sorry for my part in derailing this thread, if that's what has happened. It was my overly broad questions that got us sidelined into a whole other vast territory that could feasibly have its own sub-forum. So this will be my last wordy, tangential post clogging up the space/making the thread un-readable, etc.

 

[RocketPuppy]

Ignore: replied to something without reading further.

 

[aikanae]

One thing I did like about this company is they were direct with their source, MM. So many others it's a guessing game when they are obviously rebranding. MM flavors would not be available at the retail level to most people. I also think it's encouraging that more and more domestic flavoring companies are wiling to work with the vaping industry, either at the B2B level or retail level. I think it's a common practice for a large manufacturer, creator, to split off another company to handle retail portion. Most of these "creators" are large enough to own several holding companies under them - however it sounds as it Flavorah is independent now.

You know that eventually, with enough growth, there will be mergers and the industry will go back to only having a handful of flavors to work with at some point (if it survives), so for right now, this is the golden age. Be wise and enjoy!

 

[returnity]

Just a heads up for everyone, @Botboy141 posted a thread on reddit with detailed reviews & baseline percentages for about half the Flavorah flavors. A few interesting recipes too! I hope to follow up with my own similar post soon.

 

[aikanae]

Very nice write up. I suspect we'll be hearing more about these flavors.

 

[returnity]

Tasting notes (ongoing series) of FLV flavors from /u/redruffensore on reddit.

 

[lirruping]

Tasting notes (ongoing series) of FLV flavors from reddit.

Wow. You've actually made me interested in trying tobacco flavors--something I haven't felt since I first quit smoking. I should be getting them in the mail soon, as Shoreline kindly offered to send me the rest of the 21 flavor line. I'm hoping that much lauded blueberry flavor is among them. Thanks for the great notes!

Hope to have something to add here by way of first impressions of several FLV flavors in the coming days.

 

[returnity]

If you get the blueberry I'm gonna be seriously jealous. Glad to see Brendan taking care of you. Flavorah are really good to DIYers, I respect that.

 

[lirruping]

I finally made something I'm enjoying with the FLV Tropical Punch. It was the very first flavor I tried out, and initially (even after a two day sitting period), it was disappointing standalone: mixed at 3.5% and 4% in 90VG with 10% DW, it tasted weakly fruity, yet somehow harsh--acidic and slightly bitter. It is not the "Hawaiian Punch" flavor I had been expecting.

This mix using FLV TP tastes like strawberry starburst candy, with the FLV Tropical Punch giving it its tangy quality. It is not bad. If I rework it, I think a small amount of INW Kaktus will go well in there too, for "Tropical Desert Cream".

Tropical Strawberry Cream

6.5% tfa Strawberry (you could probably use 3.5-4% of FLV Strawberry here for similar result)
4% FLV Tropical Punch
3% tfa Vanilla Swirl
2% tfa Sweet Cream
1% of 10% solution of ethyl maltol

I don't usually use EM but I felt the T.P. was still a little harsh and this helped right away. I suppose it may be a flavor that needs time, but I'm guessing what it really likes is to be with other flavors. In this mix--as opposed to standalone--its character really changed from kind of clangy and rough to light & tangy.

Also: bear in mind FLV flavors are supposed to be concentrated similarly to FA and take that into consideration if you try this out--this may be lot of flavoring, depending on what you're used to. I like it, but I've been kind of binging on higher flavoring % mixes lately.

Edit: After a couple of weeks the "tangy" element is a lot less pronounced and I can't say it tastes like a pink starburst anymore :/. .
I would like to try it again with flavorah strawberry instead of TFA.

 

[RocketPuppy]

I love starbursts!

 

[tamsen]

Just placed a small order and can't wait to get it! Long time lurker here and I am always up to try new flavor concentrates! The hubbs and I VAPE exclusively what I make us and my dad will buy the occasional bottle of ejuice to try!!! Keep the greatness coming guys! I learn a lot!

 

[aikanae]

Yup. I broke down and ordered as well. This is a hard deal to pass up even though I really needed more nic. It would be nice if they carried nic plus bases too.

 

[Pauly Walnuts]

I hearing their vanilla custard is 'the best'. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

[lirruping]

FLAVORAH Single Flavor Tasting Notes
--> Mixed on 3/29/15 in 5 mg 10%DW/90%VG

Here are my notes from single flavors dripped in a Magma clone built single coil to 1.1 ohms. I chose starting percentages based on the Flavorah recommendation of "between 1% and 5%", as well as recommendations from others who have tried them, the smell from the bottle, and my own experience with similar flavorings.

This is my first attempt outside my own notes to convey useful first impressions of individual flavors and it's more challenging than I thought it would be! In some cases I feel like the flavor profile changes dramatically with percentage and this may be true across the board and/or in ways I haven't discovered. Bear in mind also that these are based on fairly newly mixed solutions. Hope to have more actual recipes in the not-too-distant future.


FLV Green Apple 5%
The mellowest Green Apple I have ever tasted. Not "weak", but "mellow" (more on that adjective later). Also unexpectedly creamy. Essentially similar to other green apple flavorings I have tasted. It falls on the candy side, but I have the strong impression it could be used with other more authentic-type fruits without candifying them.

FLV Creme de Menthe 5%
A creamy chocolate-mint flavor with what seems to be a tiny hint of menthol. Unlike most of the FLV flavors I've tried, I could vape this one standalone.

FLV Blueberry Muffin 5.5%
Mild blueberry with a hint of muffin. Maybe it needs higher %? Or would work better in a mix? Right now I'd say it's pretty undistinguished. Looking forward to trying the straight blueberry from FLV--people seem to really like it.

FLV Banana 1.5%
I was a little afraid to drip this one because it smells much like TFA Ripe Banana. The FLV version, while definitely a candied banana--like laffy taffy or something--seems to be much less invasive than Ripe. It's really not bad at all on top of a cotton wick already saturated with a Flavorah Coconut and Vanilla Custard combo. Also blends nicely with FLV Peach in very small amounts. I'm looking forward to experimenting with this and my favorite banana (FA Banana, which tastes more like the fruit, but is not very strong) toward my quest for the ultimate banana.

FLV Tropical Citrus 4.5%
Subdued citrus, maybe orange, light grapefruit, lemon/lime. Hard to pick out anything specific.This was more mild than I was expecting, with a surprising creamy element. I have a feeling it might be less laid back in a blend with other flavors. The FLV Tropical Punch was this way: very persistent despite having a lot of what I usually think of as "flavor absorbent" stuff added to it, e.g., cream, pastry or dough flavors.
Edit: I was wrong about it being in any way similar to Tropical Punch. With flavors added (in the dripper) it remains smooth and clear, easily overpowered by other flavors, with no bite or punchy-ness. Very nice with vanilla and/or cream for making a dreamsicle type, I would think.

FLV Spearmint 4.5%
Totally spearmint and very nice. Mixed 50/50 with FA peppermint for a nice Doublemint Gum effect (thanks for the idea for this, HIC). I've never tried another spearmint flavor, but this one is surprisingly creamy. Also quite nice in my Magma on a mechanical mod with INW Kaktus at 3% and FLV Green Apple. (I have no idea what percentage of each...I'm just doing a little flavor mash to get an idea of how they blend )

FLV Lychee 5.5%
This is my favorite of the flavors I've tried. Lychee is intense - like Chinese lychee-flavored gel candies x2. I would say I massively overdid it at 5.5% even for standalone and will try again around 2-3%. Spicy, but in the good way mangoes sometimes have. There are a few high grapefruit-y notes in there,too. Makes me wonder how it would blend with FLV Pink Guava, which is very grapefruit-y. I'm dreaming of a creamy vanilla fruit blend with a touch of flv lychee and some flv peach, FA mango--and maybe a little cardamom and rum.

FLV Pink Guava 4%
Like everyone else who has tried it has said: this tastes a lot like sweet, mellow grapefruit. It's not devoid of Guava flavor, but it's not the first thing I think of when I taste it, either. This is another of the few I could vape on its own.

FLV Coconut 5%
Really nice, even on its own. Super creamy, no musty or perfumey aspect and delicious w/ FLV v. custard. Seems similar to TFA Coconut Candy but (again!) more mellow. Not less strong, but less sharp. Alfter several days it may be developing subtle spicy notes.

FLV Strawberry 4%
This was weak at 4%. Definitely creamy, but not recognizably strawberry. I would have guessed something like vanilla. Maybe it needs more or less flavoring or sit time. Very odd. OK, I upped this to 7% and now I taste strawberry, but it is still kind of a background flavor. I am really curious how these are going to turn out in mixes. This is not something I would vape on its own.

FLV Vanilla Custard 5.5%
This is the one people have been raving about. Maybe it needs more time to cure--I mean, after only less than a week, it almost certainly does, but what I'm getting vaping it is different from what I smelled when I originally opened the bottle. It smells like something SO very familiar out of the bottle---it might be white cake mix. I tasted it on day six, and it's perfectly nice. It's not blowing my mind, but I will definitely find ways to use it. I'll try to keep posting as it cures and changes. Very tasty with FLV Coconut.

FLV Peach 5%
Similar to TFA Juicy Peach--stronger, and like a lot of FLV flavors, somehow even more mellow, missing any high, sharp notes. (That could be a plus or a minus, depending on what you want it for). I mixed some in the dripper basin with FA Fig and FLV Green Apple for a soft but fully drupe-type flavor and it's DELIGHTFUL.

Sorry to keep using the word "mellow", but that's the quality that keeps coming to mind with these--with a few definite exceptions, like FLV Lychee. But even that still has a smooth, rounded aspect. I am not sure how I feel about this quality. Maybe it is something that makes FLV especially good for vaping and was part of their criteria for deciding which flavors to carry. It is still unclear to me what effect it will have on mixing. It may well be that these are very good for beginning mixers for this reason. Time will tell.

peach & other FLAVORAH notes by redruffensore on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/DIY_eJuice/comments/307mma/my_flv_tasting_notes_peach/
A number of people on reddit have commented on Flavorah's line recently and a search there on "Flavorah" will bring you to them.

 

[lirruping]

The DIY thread on reddit is virtually vibrating with excitement over these flavors. While I like many of them and am looking forward to seeing what happens when I mix them, I'm not getting the same thrill and I am not sure what I'm missing.

The redditors giving notes on these are mostly (from what I can tell--I am new to that thread) experienced, commercial mixers. Perhaps they sense a potential for mixing in these flavors that I, as a relative newcomer to DIY, am not picking up on? Of the few mixes I have made, none were objectionable in any way. A couple of people over there mentioned that certain combinations produced very unexpected but exciting outcomes. Someone else said they were "lactone" heavy, which I would guess is referring to that milky, soft or "mellow" quality I keep finding in the FLV flavors.

Like a lot of VU DIY'ers, I tend to be kind of FlavourArt-centric and somewhat used to what one redditor called the "built-in booby traps" inherent in food flavorings, so it may be that I perceive those vagaries as an intrinsic part of the challenge and art of DIY. If the "booby traps" include things like "has weird floral notes above X %" or "goes rank and muddy-tasting when mixed with Y", then I'm betting Flavorah have few, if any of these. My mixing experiments with FLV have been limited so far, but few flavors have any real "pow" to them. Tropical Punch and Lychee are big exceptions.

 

[hazozita]

I’d have to agree, @lirruping. I’ve read several of the Reddit posts and kept thinking 'are they using the same flavors I am?' Especially the raves for the tobacco flavors. Both are OK (as with most of the Flavorah flavors) but nothing over the top. Certainly nothing that would cause me to replace my FA tobaccos with Flavorah.

Then again, I’m certainly not a supertaster. I’ve read mile long posts about the taste difference in nic bases from various suppliers. Can’t say I’ve ever been able to determine a significant taste difference between any of the quality nic vendors other than MFS when they switched suppliers a while back. That nic was definitely funky, but has now returned to what it used to be.

I’ve been mixing for about a year and a half, mix only for myself, and have zero professional mixing experience. I’m more than willing to accept the fact that my palate will never be “pro grade,” leaving me unable to appreciate the nuances in flavor brands.

 

[lirruping]

I’d have to agree, @lirruping. I’ve read several of the Reddit posts and kept thinking 'are they using the same flavors I am?' Especially the raves for the tobacco flavors. Both are OK (as with most of the Flavorah flavors) but nothing over the top. Certainly nothing that would cause me to replace my FA tobaccos with Flavorah.

Then again, I’m certainly not a supertaster. I’ve read mile long posts about the taste difference in nic bases from various suppliers. Can’t say I’ve ever been able to determine a significant taste difference between any of the quality nic vendors other than MFS when they switched suppliers a while back. That nic was definitely funky, but has now returned to what it used to be.

I’ve been mixing for about a year and a half, mix only for myself, and have zero professional mixing experience. I’m more than willing to accept the fact that my palate will never be “pro grade,” leaving me unable to appreciate the nuances in flavor brands.

I'm not a supertaster or anything like that either. But my...let's say, "olfactory life", is very important to me, fwiw, and I'm pretty picky about food, wine and vapes. Still, in addition to (or maybe as part of) the 'taste is subjective" caveat, there are always factors other than taste involved in or related to the primary olfactory experience which contribute to how the user defines it. Many of these have nothing to do with actual taste or smell, but are based more on expectations, context, ritual, etc. Point is, my picky-ness may say nothing about my ability to perceive subtleties. I basically have no clue about how to rate my own sensitivity to the "reality" of flavors--outside comparing my experience to that of others. so I just go with what I like--for whatever (mysterious) reasons I like it.

I've started throwing these flavors together in my dripper and so far it is impossible to make a "mistake". This supports the idea that they are beginner-friendly, but doesn't explain why the pros would be raving over them--unless it's basically all about a way to make their lives simpler. I'm actually going to try to make something objectionable now.

 

[lirruping]

I'm not a supertaster or anything like that either. But my...let's say, "olfactory life", is very important to me, fwiw, and I'm pretty picky about food, wine and vapes. Still, in addition to (or maybe as part of) the 'taste is subjective" caveat, there are always factors other than taste involved in or related to the primary olfactory experience which contribute to how the user defines it. Many of these have nothing to do with actual taste or smell, but are based more on expectations, context, ritual, etc. Point is, my picky-ness may say nothing about my ability to perceive subtleties. I basically have no clue about how to rate my own sensitivity to the "reality" of flavors--outside comparing my experience to that of others. so I just go with what I like--for whatever (mysterious) reasons I like it.

I've started throwing these flavors together in my dripper and so far it is impossible to make a "mistake". This supports the idea that they are beginner-friendly, but doesn't explain why the pros would be raving over them--unless it's basically all about a way to make their lives simpler. I'm actually going to try to make something objectionable now.

No luck mixing any two flavors and coming up with something unvapeable, so far. That's pretty wild.

 

[Smoky Blue]

okies.. so how clean are the flavorings? any testing done on Flavorah's flavors?

 

[lirruping]

okies.. so how clean are the flavorings? any testing done on Flavorah's flavors?

Here is their safety page from their site--this plus the material in this thread is everything I know about that.

 

[Smoky Blue]

Here is their safety page from their site--this plus the material in this thread is everything I know about that.

yes, saw that on their site.. just wondering on the actual paperwork..
will try to contact them on Monday.. thanks lirruping

 

[Heather]

So I saw this thread and am just starting out in DIY. I thought it was a good deal. I PM'ed Shoreline (Brendan) and asked it they would do the redditt promotion. He said yes just put a note in the comments to seller that I had talked to him and the promotion was approved. I did all of this and waited for the shipment. The shipment arrived and it did not have the free flavor package. I PM'ed Shoreline (Brendan) and did not get a response. I contacted the company and also have not received a response. I don't know what else I can do.

 

[RocketPuppy]

@Shoreline - ^ please read post above

 

[RocketPuppy]

Heather - did you call them?