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[Fozzy]

Totally agree! I am not suffering the Institutionalization Syndrome, so I do not require a nanny to tell my my vape is safe -- I mix my own ejuice, and build my own coils, and if there was anything wrong with either, I have these things called tastebuds that would inform me.

The Royal College of Physicians have already determined that vaping is AT LEAST 95% safer than smoking; no fucking regulations wanted or needed.

Andria

I'm on your side against Big Tabacco, I oppose the proposed vaping legislation, but everyone doesn't care to mix their own juice or build their own coils. Do you oppose regulations that require manufactures to list their ingredients or health and safety regulations in our places of business? I feel that regardless of the industry if you provide goods and services to the public there needs to regulations to help protect the community. Regulations don't have to be oppressive. Would you still oppose the regulations on vaping if they weren't so costly to the manufactures, benefited BT, or where enforced as a penalty rather than a barrier? I think there can be a middle ground. What really bothers me is that the public's naïveté is being played to destroy an emerging industry that could have a significant impact on improving public health.

 

[Carambrda]

 

[AndriaD]

Plus I trust the FDA like I trust Jack the Ripper

These same fuckers warning there is anti-freeze (pg) in juice actually allow it in food

Yes, and these same assclowns permit SULFITES!!! in food!!! Which could KILL any asthmatic who consumes them! And, it might be more smoke up our butts, but I've heard a statistic that asthmatics now account for TWENTY-FIVE PERCENT of the population -- so they're perfectly willing for 25% of the population to die of total pulmonary collapse... but are worried about vaping????????? GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FUCKING MONEY AND DON'T EVER FORGET IT!!!!!!!!!! They don't give a RAT'S ASS about our health or lives, they just want MO MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I'm on your side against Big Tabacco, I oppose the proposed vaping legislation, but everyone doesn't care to mix their own juice or build their own coils. Do you oppose regulations that require manufactures to list their ingredients or health and safety regulations in our places of business? I feel that regardless of the industry if you provide goods and services to the public there needs to regulations to help protect the community. Regulations don't have to be oppressive. Would you still oppose the regulations on vaping if they weren't so costly to the manufactures, benefited BT, or where enforced as a penalty rather than a barrier? I think there can be a middle ground. What really bothers me is that the public's naïveté is being played to destroy an emerging industry that could have a significant impact on improving public health.

I am so tired of hearing this ridiculous notion that BT is our enemy -- they are NOT. They're trying to get into vaping themselves, because it serves their interests far better if half their customers don't die. Our enemy is BIG PHARMA who just want vaping to GO AWAY -- so they can keep selling more useless shit that doesn't work, like patches, pills, etc -- and more semi-useless shit that might or might not work but costs a goddamn fortune either way -- meds for cancer, COPD, SSRIs, anti-inflammatories, etc etc etc etc, ad infinitum.

BIG PHARMA AND THE GOVERNMENT are our enemies -- big tobacco is just a competitor for market share.

Of course there COULD be a middle ground -- but if you offer the gov't one fucking inch, they will take ONE HUNDRED FUCKING MILES!!!!!!!!

Best gov't is LESS GOVERNMENT! And even those with the Institutionalization Syndrome can get over it and learn to think for themselves!

Andria

 

[Fozzy]

Plus I trust the FDA like I trust Jack the

So would it be fair to say you don't have a problem with regulations if they were designed to really protect the public. IMO, the problem is that the regulatory bodies have become corrupted by money and power.

I say that BT is our enemy because their lobbiest and money influence policy making greatly. I put AMA and Pharma in the same category. All are organizations that were designed to protect us that have grown too large and now exist to protect their own interests.

I would like to have real solutions and see real change. Getting rid of all government and all regulations to me is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I don't want to go back to the turn of the 20th century when companies could sell what every they wanted and treat their employees however they wanted. Unfortunately, maximizing shareholder wealth often comes at an expense to public safety. Companies need to be kept in check and regulations help to do that. Good regulations have the interest of the public in mind and not the companies and organizations providing goods and services to our community. Eliminating regulations is exactly what big business wants.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[AndriaD]

So would it be fair to say you don't have a problem with regulations if they were designed to really protect the public. IMO, the problem is that the regulatory bodies have become corrupted by money and power.

I say that BT is our enemy because their lobbiest and money influence policy making greatly. I put AMA and Pharma in the same category. All are organizations that were designed to protect us that have grown too large and now exist to protect their own interests.

I would like to have real solutions and see real change. Getting rid of all government and all regulations to me is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I don't want to go back to the turn of the 20th century when companies could sell what every they wanted and treat their employees however they wanted. Unfortunately, maximizing shareholder wealth often comes at an expense to public safety. Companies need to be kept in check and regulations help to do that. Good regulations have the interest of the public in mind and not the companies and organizations providing goods and services to our community. Eliminating regulations is exactly what big business wants.

That's my 2 cents.

The problem with "sensible regulations" is the fact that Congress is FILLED with Big Nanny socialists, who call themselves liberals or democrats or some such, but are actually "progressive liberals" who think they know better than ANYBODY!!! how everyone ought to live. And for them, I have nothing but contempt and the back of my hand. Eliminating regulations is EXACTLY how they should be dealt with! Get rid of them entirely! Sweep them out of Congress and tar and feather any new ones who try to get elected! Those are the same fucking idiots who keep talking about protecting the children, as if such a thing as "parents" don't exist! They're the ones who see vaping as evil... because it will deprive those who slip money into their pockets of the jobs that make that money-slipping possible! They are the biggest evil this country has ever faced, or harbored, and they need to be BANNED.

Andria

 

[Carambrda]

Baseball

 

[Fozzy]

And my problem is that time and time again making policy to deregulate something rather than find a sensible middle ground damages the economy. Deregulation in Banking opened the door for CMOs and Derivatives that ultimately lead to the housing market crash. The problem as I see it isn't with regualations it's with corruption. No system can work for the interest of all parties if corruption exists. Even a simple game of Go Fish can be ruined if some prick decides to cheat. So rules and regulations need to exist.

 

[AndriaD]

And my problem is that time and time again making policy to deregulate something rather than find a sensible middle ground damages the economy. Deregulation in Banking opened the door for CMOs and Derivatives that ultimately lead to the housing market crash. The problem as I see it isn't with regualations it's with corruption. No system can work for the interest of all parties if corruption exists. Even a simple game of Go Fish can be ruined if some prick decides to cheat. So rules and regulations need to exist.

As long as you have politicians, you can bet your bottom dollar that at least 50% of them are absolutely corrupt. Probably more, but 50% is a safe assumption, to start. Hence all those "progressive liberals" with their pockets wide open to BP and all of BP's mouthpieces (the "charitable" orgs, which are anything but). Dr. Siegel's most recent post about the "Tobacco-Free Kids" org is a beautiful case in point -- they are deliberately lying, with evil intent.

Andria

 

[Fozzy]

We are going around and around. I can criticize our politicians, the political system and find fault with decisions made on both sides of the isle. I won't buy into that one is better than the other simply because they are Republican, Democrat or Independent. I will listen to all aguements and the proposed solutions and choose the one that I believe is in my best interest and the Country's best interest. IMO, a good system will have checks and balances. I am thankful we have rules and regulations and don't have Anarchy.

What I think we agree on is that the current regulations and bans on vaping will hurt the consumer, small business and were not contemplated for the benefit of Public Heath.

 

[JuicyLucy]

So would it be fair to say you don't have a problem with regulations if they were designed to really protect the public.

No.

Here is why:
Anyone who really thinks the FDA is actually truly protecting the public with its current regulations of food and medicine is woefully gullible

The FDA claims the deeming regs are designed to protect the public - and it is a disaster

Also, you will be hard pressed to get two people to agree as to what constitutes "really protect the public" means

As I see it, we are doing a pretty good job of it ourselves

 

[Fozzy]

I'm not saying the FDA is doing a good job and I agree with all the criticism. But I also know that when we let companies and industries self regulate we are asking for trouble. History is filled with examples of businesses going too far. There are reasons that we have health and safety regulations. There are reasons that the FDA, OSHA and the EPA were created. Maybe if we expose them for the frauds that they are something can be done. Maybe if we insist on content rather than sensationalism from our media something can be done. But if we take the path of deregulating everything because the organizations that were created to protect us have become corrupt we will also have no recourse when these companies or industries steps out of line. The FDA is out to kill vaping, it's blatant. They have had a grudge ever since they lost a suit for seizing the electronic cigarettes coming in from china as unregulated medical devices. At the time, the manufactures claimed they were a tobacco product and not within the FDAs authority. The manufactures won, now the FDA is using that decision to push their evil agenda. You all are correct, the FDA and IMO our entire government and political system are failing us. If you want to take to the streets in protest, I'm right with you. But to think that companies will do what's in the best interest of the public is naive. They are no better that the organizations that we are condemning, history has proven that. A disenfranchised voice will not be heard.

 

[5150sick]

I don't know that that's fair. For instance, I surround myself with other people in recovery. A lot of these people are focused on improving their lives and health. It's a running joke that people in my position are highly addicted to coffee and cigarettes and it certainly has its truth. I've noticed over the past few years that people are really making a go at quitting smoking and vaping has become commonplace. That's just an example of a sect that may not be commonly observed and wouldn't likely to be thought of by someone who wasn't looking for it. I'm certain there are numerous examples of similar things. It's been some time since I stepped foot on a college campus, but I'd bet vaping is common in that demographic as well.

The only couple of things I'd like to see change are the use of sex as a selling point in advertisement and the "bro" crap. I don't mind the use of the term, but no, I don't lift, but I do vape and hate that people assume anything about me based on my decision to vape. I get enough shit based on the way I dress, tattoos and my personal history with drugs and alcohol.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk

You know I have noticed that with most vaping / quitting smoking is usually at the very end of the road to getting clean for addicts.

Since it is the thing that kills us the slowest out of our vices it ends up at the end of the to do list plus it would be much harder to come off of hard drugs / alcohol AND quit smoking at the same time.

I noticed it's the one thing they don't try to preach about in NA / AA and like you said everyone there smokes and drinks coffee.

I haven't been to a meeting in a decade but i'd be willing to bet a lot of vaping goes on during breaks in place of smoking now.

 

[5150sick]

I would also like to see the vape industry push back and demand the same from big tobacco making them list all of the additives they add as well as a warning of what those additives combined become once they are combusted.

Yea, OK
So packs of cigarettes are going to start coming with phone book sized ingredient manuals attached to them?

People have had "SMOKING WILL KILL YOU" beaten into their heads from birth until death.

If you start smoking in 2017 then it's on YOU.

The government already had their "Master Settlement" and they fucking blew it on slush fund bullshit.

The whole reason vaping is fucked right now is because when Matt Myers from The Center For Tobacco Free Kids sat down with Big Tobaccos lawyers to set up the Master Settlement Agreement in 1998 they agreed to stomp out future competition right then and there.

Now that the states literally pissed the whole 25 years worth of money away in less then a decade they want to make damn sure they at least collect back what they owe.

These fuckwad tobacco controllers made a deal with the devil and it's going to kill US unless someone with enough balls and enough power steps up and tells them to pound sand.

It's going to take a miracle and even then we will be heavily taxed and heavily regulated because there are hundreds of billions of lost dollars between 45+ states at stake.

 

[Carambrda]

I'm not saying the FDA is doing a good job and I agree with all the criticism. But I also know that when we let companies and industries self regulate we are asking for trouble. History is filled with examples of businesses going too far. There are reasons that we have health and safety regulations. There are reasons that the FDA, OSHA and the EPA were created. Maybe if we expose them for the frauds that they are something can be done. Maybe if we insist on content rather than sensationalism from our media something can be done. But if we take the path of deregulating everything because the organizations that were created to protect us have become corrupt we will also have no recourse when these companies or industries steps out of line. The FDA is out to kill vaping, it's blatant. They have had a grudge ever since they lost a suit for seizing the electronic cigarettes coming in from china as unregulated medical devices. At the time, the manufactures claimed they were a tobacco product and not within the FDAs authority. The manufactures won, now the FDA is using that decision to push their evil agenda. You all are correct, the FDA and IMO our entire government and political system are failing us. If you want to take to the streets in protest, I'm right with you. But to think that companies will do what's in the best interest of the public is naive. They are no better that the organizations that we are condemning, history has proven that. A disenfranchised voice will not be heard.

You could insist on content rather than sensationalism from our media, but I'm afraid it would be just a small drop in the ocean because fake news and sensationalism is what the general public truly wants. Stanley Milgram assumed the general public cares whether people live or die, yet his own experiments proved his assumption was horribly wrong so this is the real reason why smear campaigns against vaping are such a highly effective strategy to make 98% of all vaping products suddenly disappear from the "free" market. What little will be left of the vaping industry will be bought by Big Tobacco and Big Pharma for a shin. Remember Microsoft's strategy of competing against small, promising startup companies by first breaking the law, and then those small companies finally went into bankruptcy as a result, but you can't receive any fair compensation after you've already gone out of business so then all Microsoft had to do was buy for a shin what was still left of them. History will just keep repeating itself. So they'll eventually retract outrageous vaping regulations for sure, but not before the big bucks can be made by those who seek only to thrive by corruption.

 

[Carambrda]

I am so tired of hearing this ridiculous notion that BT is our enemy -- they are NOT. They're trying to get into vaping themselves, because it serves their interests far better if half their customers don't die. Our enemy is BIG PHARMA who just want vaping to GO AWAY -- so they can keep selling more useless shit that doesn't work, like patches, pills, etc -- and more semi-useless shit that might or might not work but costs a goddamn fortune either way -- meds for cancer, COPD, SSRIs, anti-inflammatories, etc etc etc etc, ad infinitum.

BIG PHARMA AND THE GOVERNMENT are our enemies -- big tobacco is just a competitor for market share.

Of course there COULD be a middle ground -- but if you offer the gov't one fucking inch, they will take ONE HUNDRED FUCKING MILES!!!!!!!!

Best gov't is LESS GOVERNMENT! And even those with the Institutionalization Syndrome can get over it and learn to think for themselves!

Andria

The fact Big Tobacco are trying to get into vaping themselves also smells like just Trojan Horse tactics IMO.

 

[AndriaD]

The fact Big Tobacco are trying to get into vaping themselves also smells like just Trojan Horse tactics IMO.

Well, they're a competitor, so yes, an enemy in a certain way -- but not NEARLY the enemy that both BP and gov't are our enemies, and considering how much attention has been trained on BT for years, BT is probably NOT NEARLY as corrupt as both BP and gov't. BP wants the public to think they care about us, and so does the gov't, and nothing could be further from the truth. BT just wants to stay in business selling something, so that's an honest motivation, which anyone in a consumer society should be able to understand and respect. Yeah, cigarettes are hazardous to health -- what about all that sugar that gets marketed every year, all across the board? The purveyors are starting to take some heat for that, but that will not eradicate the fact that PEOPLE WANT SUGARY SHIT! And people want cigarettes, and some former smokers want vaping.

If this was pre-internet times, it would have been very easy to suppress vaping, but now? The cat is out of the bag, and nobody is going to be able to put that angry cat back in the bag. They may try, for a while, but vaping has too many adherents and users at this point -- it's here to stay, even if BP and the gov't make things difficult for a while.

The truth remains the truth, no matter what anyone says about it. It took the Catholic church quite a long time to accept that the earth is a globe, and NOT the center of EVERYTHING.... but their slow reluctance did nothing to alter the facts.

Andria

 

[Carambrda]

Well, they're a competitor, so yes, an enemy in a certain way -- but not NEARLY the enemy that both BP and gov't are our enemies, and considering how much attention has been trained on BT for years, BT is probably NOT NEARLY as corrupt as both BP and gov't. BP wants the public to think they care about us, and so does the gov't, and nothing could be further from the truth. BT just wants to stay in business selling something, so that's an honest motivation, which anyone in a consumer society should be able to understand and respect. Yeah, cigarettes are hazardous to health -- what about all that sugar that gets marketed every year, all across the board? The purveyors are starting to take some heat for that, but that will not eradicate the fact that PEOPLE WANT SUGARY SHIT! And people want cigarettes, and some former smokers want vaping.

If this was pre-internet times, it would have been very easy to suppress vaping, but now? The cat is out of the bag, and nobody is going to be able to put that angry cat back in the bag. They may try, for a while, but vaping has too many adherents and users at this point -- it's here to stay, even if BP and the gov't make things difficult for a while.

The truth remains the truth, no matter what anyone says about it. It took the Catholic church quite a long time to accept that the earth is a globe, and NOT the center of EVERYTHING.... but their slow reluctance did nothing to alter the facts.

Andria

This article is from 2003:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/393075.stm

Not exactly what I would call "honest motivation".

 

[AndriaD]

This article is from 2003:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/393075.stm

Not exactly what I would call "honest motivation".

Their *tactics* are definitely unethical, but that says nothing about their *motivation*, which is still "to sell things and stay in business." I personally think the addition of bronchodilators and topical anesthetics is far more heinous even than adding ammonia to hasten the already very rapid uptake -- in my own case, though I no longer have a chest full of mucus, I can now FEEL my asthma a great deal more than I felt it when I smoked; a lot of folks, who weren't so deadset on finding a way out of smoking, might use that as a good excuse to go back to smoking -- I was determined not to!

But BT has never claimed to be a "savior of society" the way that BP and gov't does -- to me, THAT is far more unethical than adding shit to a product to help ensure continuing business. I really, really thought that BP was in the business of helping people, and that gov't actually cared about the welfare of its citizens -- but BP's motivation doesn't have ONE FUCKING THING to do with helping people; they just want MO MONEY, and if only a few die of their expensive nostrums, they're ok with that. And gov't doesn't give one single rat's ass about the welfare of its citizens; they too just want MO MONEY, to keep a) padding their own personal pockets, and b) padding the pockets of those who do things to help them get their way.

I can understand the desire for MO MONEY -- I want that too! -- but the deliberate misinformation spewed out by both BP and gov't, in order to get that money, that just doesn't fly, with me. I would rather they came right out and said "this product may or may not help anyone, but it's very expensive, so we really don't care if it helps you or not; just try it, maybe it'll help you, and we'll make money." As for gov't.... I'm starting to be a serious proponent of anarchy, because when you give some humans any power at all, they turn into fucking MONSTERS -- and unfortunately, those are the same people who seek gov't jobs.

Andria

 

[BCBuch]

Yea, OK
So packs of cigarettes are going to start coming with phone book sized ingredient manuals attached to them?

People have had "SMOKING WILL KILL YOU" beaten into their heads from birth until death.

If you start smoking in 2017 then it's on YOU.

The government already had their "Master Settlement" and they fucking blew it on slush fund bullshit.

The whole reason vaping is fucked right now is because when Matt Myers from The Center For Tobacco Free Kids sat down with Big Tobaccos lawyers to set up the Master Settlement Agreement in 1998 they agreed to stomp out future competition right then and there.

Now that the states literally pissed the whole 25 years worth of money away in less then a decade they want to make damn sure they at least collect back what they owe.

These fuckwad tobacco controllers made a deal with the devil and it's going to kill US unless someone with enough balls and enough power steps up and tells them to pound sand.

It's going to take a miracle and even then we will be heavily taxed and heavily regulated because there are hundreds of billions of lost dollars between 45+ states at stake.

Good Points. My guess is that loss revenue is the reason we are all of a sudden seeing this turn around on the government stance on tolerance for medical and recreational 420. The taxes raised from those sales will offset current & future tobacco tax losses. At the end of the day people need to realize that government is basically made of a bunch of power hungry control freaks that don't give a shit about the general populous. They sit around thinking up ways to tax for the sole purpose of padding their pockets and accounts. I fully expect within this decade on this side of the pond 420 will become legal on the federal level. Once those supposedly pushing back see the tax revenue generated by those states that have legalized the pushing back will stop and all will get on board.

 

[BCBuch]

The problem with "sensible regulations" is the fact that Congress is FILLED with Big Nanny socialists, who call themselves liberals or democrats or some such, but are actually "progressive liberals" who think they know better than ANYBODY!!! how everyone ought to live. And for them, I have nothing but contempt and the back of my hand. Eliminating regulations is EXACTLY how they should be dealt with! Get rid of them entirely! Sweep them out of Congress and tar and feather any new ones who try to get elected! Those are the same fucking idiots who keep talking about protecting the children, as if such a thing as "parents" don't exist! They're the ones who see vaping as evil... because it will deprive those who slip money into their pockets of the jobs that make that money-slipping possible! They are the biggest evil this country has ever faced, or harbored, and they need to be BANNED.

Andria

I remember a couple of years ago when we were hearing about EMP killing the power grids, how many decades it would take to recover if the grids went down, and the fact that it would throw us back into basically an 1800s or earlier life style. I thought back then and still do that wouldn't be all that bad. Call me callus but in short order you would have an extreme thinning of the herd. The free loading couch potatoes would cease to exist along with the government that has set up that way of life as a norm. It would boil down to survival of the fittest where you would either have to contribute or have the survival skills and means to make it on your own. The concern then would simply be survival. The problem is that you would still have to contend with new groups coming along trying to control and be in charge.

You are right there is no sensible regulating. What we have at the so called top of the food chain right now are a bunch of bureaucrats on both sides of the isle that are crooked as the day is long. They want their noses in everyone's business not just in their own countries, but world wide as well. I'm still waiting on the global financial melt down to happen. I think that is the most likely scenario to happen. I figure it is just a matter of time. That will be the trigger that kicks off the total collapse of government followed by society as we know it.

 

[Carambrda]

Their *tactics* are definitely unethical, but that says nothing about their *motivation*, which is still "to sell things and stay in business." I personally think the addition of bronchodilators and topical anesthetics is far more heinous even than adding ammonia to hasten the already very rapid uptake -- in my own case, though I no longer have a chest full of mucus, I can now FEEL my asthma a great deal more than I felt it when I smoked; a lot of folks, who weren't so deadset on finding a way out of smoking, might use that as a good excuse to go back to smoking -- I was determined not to!

But BT has never claimed to be a "savior of society" the way that BP and gov't does -- to me, THAT is far more unethical than adding shit to a product to help ensure continuing business. I really, really thought that BP was in the business of helping people, and that gov't actually cared about the welfare of its citizens -- but BP's motivation doesn't have ONE FUCKING THING to do with helping people; they just want MO MONEY, and if only a few die of their expensive nostrums, they're ok with that. And gov't doesn't give one single rat's ass about the welfare of its citizens; they too just want MO MONEY, to keep a) padding their own personal pockets, and b) padding the pockets of those who do things to help them get their way.

I can understand the desire for MO MONEY -- I want that too! -- but the deliberate misinformation spewed out by both BP and gov't, in order to get that money, that just doesn't fly, with me. I would rather they came right out and said "this product may or may not help anyone, but it's very expensive, so we really don't care if it helps you or not; just try it, maybe it'll help you, and we'll make money." As for gov't.... I'm starting to be a serious proponent of anarchy, because when you give some humans any power at all, they turn into fucking MONSTERS -- and unfortunately, those are the same people who seek gov't jobs.

Andria

You practically said it yourself. lol To sell addicting deadly cigarettes and stay in rich business vs. to sell comfortable big lies and stay rich... what's the whole difference...

 

[Carambrda]

I remember a couple of years ago when we were hearing about EMP killing the power grids, how many decades it would take to recover if the grids went down, and the fact that it would throw us back into basically an 1800s or earlier life style. I thought back then and still do that wouldn't be all that bad. Call me callus but in short order you would have an extreme thinning of the herd. The free loading couch potatoes would cease to exist along with the government that has set up that way of life as a norm. It would boil down to survival of the fittest where you would either have to contribute or have the survival skills and means to make it on your own. The concern then would simply be survival. The problem is that you would still have to contend with new groups coming along trying to control and be in charge.

You are right there is no sensible regulating. What we have at the so called top of the food chain right now are a bunch of bureaucrats on both sides of the isle that are crooked as the day is long. They want their noses in everyone's business not just in their own countries, but world wide as well. I'm still waiting on the global financial melt down to happen. I think that is the most likely scenario to happen. I figure it is just a matter of time. That will be the trigger that kicks off the total collapse of government followed by society as we know it.

Lucky for me a couple days ago I finally got the answer to everything... http://vapingunderground.com/threads/mechanical-pics.2413/page-38#post-1816184

 

[AndriaD]

You practically said it yourself. lol To sell addicting deadly cigarettes and stay in rich business vs. to sell comfortable big lies and stay rich... what's the whole difference...

BP is selling more than comforting big lies... how about, addictive SSRIs, addictive sleep aids, addictive lots of other stuff.... useless patches, useless pills that won't help you stop smoking but WILL make you suicidal and/or homicidal, cancer meds, COPD meds, asthma meds... etc etc etc ad infinitum.... much of which a) doesn't work too well, b) causes other problems which need MORE medication, and c) cost a bloody fortune. and if one drug isn't quite doing the job, well then, take another along with it! Take 3 or 10 or 50! But by far their most heinous lie is the idea that they actually care about what's wrong with anyone: THEY DON'T!

How can you possibly defend BP? They're the worst villain in big biz. BT are a bunch of pikers compared to BP, because everyone already knows that BT's tobacco is dangerous/deadly, while BP is busy promulgating the fiction that they give a shit about anything except their bottom line.

Andria

 

[Carambrda]

BP is selling more than comforting big lies... how about, addictive SSRIs, addictive sleep aids, addictive lots of other stuff.... useless patches, useless pills that won't help you stop smoking but WILL make you suicidal and/or homicidal, cancer meds, COPD meds, asthma meds... etc etc etc ad infinitum.... much of which a) doesn't work too well, b) causes other problems which need MORE medication, and c) cost a bloody fortune. and if one drug isn't quite doing the job, well then, take another along with it! Take 3 or 10 or 50! But by far their most heinous lie is the idea that they actually care about what's wrong with anyone: THEY DON'T!

How can you possibly defend BP? They're the worst villain in big biz. BT are a bunch of pikers compared to BP, because everyone already knows that BT's tobacco is dangerous/deadly, while BP is busy promulgating the fiction that they give a shit about anything except their bottom line.

Andria

Yes of course everyone already knows tobacco is dangerous and deadly. Yes of course it's the truth, but unfortunately the final question that matters is still this:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/does_truth_matter_science_pseudoscience_and_civilization

 

[AndriaD]

Yes of course everyone already knows tobacco is dangerous and deadly. Yes of course it's the truth, but unfortunately the final question that matters is still this:
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/does_truth_matter_science_pseudoscience_and_civilization

What the HELL does all that crap have to do with the fact that BP and gov't are vaping's biggest enemies??? If your answer to everything I said above is to reach for philosophy.... well, you're really reaching.

Andria

 

[Carambrda]

What the HELL does all that crap have to do with the fact that BP and gov't are vaping's biggest enemies??? If your answer to everything I said above is to reach for philosophy.... well, you're really reaching.

Andria

It's not philosophy or anything like that... just a common observation of how easy it really is to deceive the general public when big money talks. That and the fact BT has got a LOT to lose if vaping isn't almost completely banned as soon as possible so logical deduction tells me they're probably fueling anti-vaping campaigns in secret because, well... they still haven't told you the whole truth about what's in a cigarette either, have they?

 

[BCBuch]

It's not philosophy or anything like that... just a common observation of how easy it really is to deceive the general public when big money talks.

I hate to burst any bubbles here, but it isn't overly hard to deceive a population that has so many people that can't manage the rudimentary tasks involved in daily survival without some kind of assistance. It's kind of why things are in the shape they are. We have an overwhelming amount of the population that can't make a decision for themselves, and they will go along with anything big government or business tells them as long as a carrot of something free is dangled in front of their noses.

 

[Carambrda]

I hate to burst any bubbles here, but it isn't overly hard to deceive a population that has so many people that can't manage the rudimentary tasks involved in daily survival without some kind of assistance. It's kind of why things are in the shape they are. We have an overwhelming amount of the population that can't make a decision for themselves, and they will go along with anything big government or business tells them as long as a carrot of something free is dangled in front of their noses.

Exactly. The writing is on the wall.

 

[Fozzy]

Good Points. My guess is that loss revenue is the reason we are all of a sudden seeing this turn around on the government stance on tolerance for medical and recreational 420. The taxes raised from those sales will offset current & future tobacco tax losses. At the end of the day people need to realize that government is basically made of a bunch of power hungry control freaks that don't give a shit about the general populous. They sit around thinking up ways to tax for the sole purpose of padding their pockets and accounts. I fully expect within this decade on this side of the pond 420 will become legal on the federal level. Once those supposedly pushing back see the tax revenue generated by those states that have legalized the pushing back will stop and all will get on board.

You could insist on content rather than sensationalism from our media, but I'm afraid it would be just a small drop in the ocean because fake news and sensationalism is what the general public truly wants. Stanley Milgram assumed the general public cares whether people live or die, yet his own experiments proved his assumption was horribly wrong so this is the real reason why smear campaigns against vaping are such a highly effective strategy to make 98% of all vaping products suddenly disappear from the "free" market. What little will be left of the vaping industry will be bought by Big Tobacco and Big Pharma for a shin. Remember Microsoft's strategy of competing against small, promising startup companies by first breaking the law, and then those small companies finally went into bankruptcy as a result, but you can't receive any fair compensation after you've already gone out of business so then all Microsoft had to do was buy for a shin what was still left of them. History will just keep repeating itself. So they'll eventually retract outrageous vaping regulations for sure, but not before the big bucks can be made by those who seek only to thrive by corruption.

I don't expect much of anything, but I will continue to be involved with vaping advocacy and continue to contact my representatives. I see a lot of comments about how unlikely compromise is, but IMO it's more likely than allowing the vaping industry to self regulate. Personally, I'm prepared for the worst but I will continue to hope for the best.

 

[5150sick]

I'm prepared for the worst but I will continue to hope for the best.

That's exactly what my tag is.
V