tombaker
Bronze Contributor
Member For 4 Years
Member For 3 Years
Member For 2 Years
Member For 1 Year
Member For 5 Years
Summary: All APV hardware that is not prefilled is outside of the scope of the FDA and it can not be regulated, under all current laws at the disposal of the FDA. This means a Protank sold by itself, this means every Battery (MOD or VW, or VV, all of them), this means replacement coils packs, every RBA. All APV hardware as sold in the market commonly sold in the market today, is outside of the FDA regulations and control.
For those who were concerned, but then thought there is no way the FDA could regulate APV hardware, because there was just way to many ways around it, they have better things to do, its crazy if they try that….you are right. Does this mean because all hardware is out of scope, that the FDA deeming is meaningless, NO. But lets focus attention and energy on what is real.
Boiled down to the Regulatory Core, E-Liquid equals E-Cigarettes. That means all of vaping, disposables, Cart and Recharge, EGO threading, Clearomizers, and MOD type drippers, and RBA.
E-Liquid being the Tobacco Product should not be controversial, it is 1:1 with Tobacco, being the constant to Cigarettes and Cigars, Tobacco Pipes, Chew, and the rest.
E-Liquid is the common denominator for EVERYTHING. Ignoring the subjectives of works better, tastes better…a disposable has the same E-Liquid in it, as the E-Liquid dripped in a RBA, filled into a EGO threaded Tank System, and refilled into 510 or 808 blank Cartomizer. It is ALWAYS the Same E-Liquid. Always means ALWAYS, if its E-Liquid its Vaping.
E-Liquid (with Nic) is all that counts. You have it, you can vape, you don’t have it you don’t vape. If for some whacked reason anyone wants to debate this, start a your own thread, I can promise to let you win over there, I won’t show up. The FDA has regulatory authority over E-Liquid and stuff packaged with E-Liquid.
There is lots of confusion between Product vs Usage, that is for another thread.
It’s a given that FDA can regulate E-Liquid .
It also is no surprise to anyone, the FDA states they can regulate a Finished Product, which CONTAINS E-Liquid. That means they can regulate the disposables in the single packs at the convenience stores.
Simularly Blu, Apolloecigs, Haloecigs, sell the exact same thing as a disposable in a rechargeable battery, and prefilled cartomizer. Everybody agrees these are all in scope of FDA.
So what is the FDA talking about when they say Component or Part used or expected to be used in a Finished Tobacco Product. They mean the Prefilled Cart.
1. We know this because they says so in their example in the Deeming itself
2. The cart is prefilled with EGOs sold inside the finished product, as a kit.
3. They are talking about E-Liquid that is put inside of the finished tobacco part.
4. The are saying if it does not have a Tobacco in it, that is NOT a Tobacco Product, and further, they only have regulatory power of Tobacco. The FDA says this.
The FDA states it can regulate Components or Parts of intended or expected to be used as part of a Finished Tobacco Product. So must mean that my Provari, the precious, they are coming for my Precious. The Precious is sold on the same site, site that sells E-Liquids, hey they are going to figure it out. Nope. The FDA is not going after the hardware, it would make zero sense. They already are using misfit regulations to work E-Cigs, its hard enough already, they are not going to fight to regulate a Tobacco Pipe, Otherwise known as a Clearomizer.
Of course it makes sense that the FDA won’t try to go after APV hardware, buttttttt that does not mean they are going to do it, look at when they tried to ___X_in back in 20xx__ you think they won’t do it again!!!!!
Well yes, because they got beat back hard by NJOY cigs, who’s lawyer’s single handedly beat back the FDA, and in the appeal. NJOY crushed the FDA in court, and the effects still hurt. The FDA is not going to go after things where they will lose so dang easily with a judge. The FDA is not going to go after hardware because it can be worked around easily.
For examply, my usage of an Ego Twist and an iClear16, is a vape pure water, it’s a nice personal humidifier. I think that is pretty much a decision proof usage of a legal product.
But enough of what makes sense. Lets look at what the FDA actually says.
1. FDA is proposing to deem those products meeting the definition of "tobacco product" in section 201(rr) of the FD&C Act, except the accessories of proposed deemed tobacco products to be subject to chapter IX of the FD&C Act.
Therefore, items such as hookah tongs, bags, cases, charcoal burners and holders, as well as cigar foil cutters, humidors, carriers, and lighters would be considered accessories and would not fall within the scope of this proposed rule.
So right there we can understand that a battery and a coil, are a “lighter” Fine you think that is not enough, the FDA would want to go to court on it….Fine NEXT
1. Products that meet the statutory definition of "tobacco products" can include currently marketed products such as certain dissolvables, gels, hookah tobacco, electronic cigarettes, cigars, and pipe tobacco.
Components and parts of tobacco products, but not their related accessories, would also be included in the scope of this proposed rule. Components and parts are included as part of a finished tobacco product or intended for consumer use in the consumption of a tobacco product.
Components and parts that would be covered under this proposal include those items sold separately or as part of kits sold or distributed for consumer use or further manufacturing or included as part of a finished tobacco product.
AH HA, there it its. The FDA said intended. It could mean anything. This is why Johnny is hording drip tips, they are coming after our drip tips. The courts will rule the FDA is right to go after drip tips, and my Precious.
Some heads just exploded, how dare I. How dare I say that the FDA is clearly talking about E-Liquid, that E-Liquid is Vape. How dare I suggest they are talking about things or kits that containt E-Liquid.
I dare because I read the next sentence.
Such examples would include air/smoke filters, tubes, papers, pouches, or flavorings used for any of the proposed deemed tobacco products (such as flavored hookah charcoals and hookah flavor enhancers) or cartridges for e-cigarettes.
The FDA gives an exact and specific example. The component in question is the pre-filled cartomizer. Its not an E-Cig, it can not fire by itself. The coil inside the Cart, is a coil, but so is a windproof lighter. If they said E-Cig, some may be confused that a Cart is not an E-Cig, but will be part of the regulations. So to clarify, to explain what on earth they are meaning, when talking about E-Cigarettes, they tell you. THEY MEAN A CART, filled with E-Liquid, which makes it a Tobacco Product.
But my Precious, why should I think my Provari is safe. The FDA can regulate Tobacco Products. The Precious contains no nicotine. Without Nicotine its not a Tobacco Product.
Nevertheless, all tobacco products containing nicotine are addictive, and FDA is not currently aware of any tobacco products that do not contain nicotine.
And there are other things where the FDA is twice shy because of what NJOY did in the courts, by themselves, on their own dime. For example.
FDA does not at this time intend to enforce the requirements of 910 and 905(j) for components of regulated tobacco products that are sold or distributed solely for further manufacturing into finished tobacco products.
It could be a huge wasted effort to go after Kanger being a supplier to V2. But it also shows they understand they can not win a fight with Joe who buys 100 and builds them, but only builds them and sells them to vape water, or Zero-Nic.
A Provari is never a finshed TOBACCO product. Nor is every empty Tank or Clearomizer, or RBA. They got no nicotine, and they are being sold as finished products without Nicotine. Without Nicotine you are not Tobacco. Without Tobacco you are not inside of the FDA. Zeller is asking them to read it, then to make comments if there is any confusion. Have not seen a good comment yet on this specific item….but lets continue.
Just what in the heck is a Finished Product: From Cornell Law
Finished product means a product which has been completely manufactured, packaged, and labeled.
Is a Provari a finished product. YES
Does it contain Nicotine NO
Is it a Tobacco Product NO
Will a Provari be included with Nicotine as a Kit, as in 1 Provari, and 1 bottle of juice inside the same package? NO. If it does, then yah it just like a prefilled Cart. Is some idiot about to do that, actually I don’t even think an idiot would.
What about a Protank. Same.
What about a CE4, that comes in a starter kit, that includes the E-Liquid and EGO. YES, its got the E-Liquid, E-Liquid = FDA
What about a kit that has a Protank and a Provari, packaged together. No E-Liquid.
Look at what Zeller said.
Generically,
APV hardware, is not ever expected to be used inside of a FINISHED TOBACCO PRODUCT, because it is never kitted that way. A PRODUCT is a definition. It does not just mean a device. The FDA is not regulating E-Cigs as Devices. It has to be a Tobacco Product to be with the FDA. All APV hardware is used for applications which do not contain Nicotine. All those applications are outside of the FDA reach.
Boil it all down, ALL HARDWARE without containing E-Liquid (with Nic) is outside of the FDA.