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Cloudmaker Whiteout dna and sx...... issues?
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BadLuckAndTrouble
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Yeah, I was thinking I was gonna be out that money.
If they are really going to release that mod, they better do it pronto. This is going to get very ugly, very fast if they don't. Best wishes to everyone that has a horse in this race.
Cheers,
Steve
Cheers,
Steve
BadLuckAndTrouble
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Not only that, but if it gets pushed out much further the chips they ship with will be last gen(maybe not the DNA 200 as its upgradeable), but im sure theyll "have the newest modular chipsets" available already for pre-order lol.
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Yup for another 80$!
So people who bought a 200$ mod from smog could be 400$ in the hole for a current mod when they get it.
But!!! According to them, we can't be negative because it hurts there feelings and makes them work slower.
So, we have to get fucked with a smile on our face.
So people who bought a 200$ mod from smog could be 400$ in the hole for a current mod when they get it.
But!!! According to them, we can't be negative because it hurts there feelings and makes them work slower.
So, we have to get fucked with a smile on our face.
If you want to pass on Smog's info. He's an LLC out of california. Even though it's public info and can be looked up, I've pm'd you the info so I can't be accused of doxing. The authorities can use this info and request the full info from the Secretary of State. If you are passing this onto fraud dept. I would suggest you get on reddit and do some screen shots of his statements and replies to people's posts. Especially the ones where he admits to the Black Friday fraud to raise money.
I'd just call my bank or credit card now, today, if I were you all. They should release the funds immediately, then investigate. I can just about guarantee that all of you will get your money back. Especially if they request further info, there are threads, I'm sure emails, etc... I doubt they'll request it, but if so' it's all in writing and publicly available, so they're screwed. I wouldn't elevate this to police, unless credit cards do themselves. No need to draw this kind of attention to the industry. It's evident at this point that these people can't deliver so I'd just be done and move on. It's too bad, but thankfully we have good protection for this sort of stuff with banks.
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Also!!! Not to put much more on your plate but where returnity admitted to being part owner and working for cloudmaker. That's also Freud by deception and comingling of funds.
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I understand what you're saying but this is already out in the Industry and we have to protect each other from this kind of shit. The more we go about underground doing that and not letting people experience the consequences for theft people will try-shans mods, black edition....to name the first that come to mind. Vaping is not a crime but Freud and theft are. we have to keep a clean house.
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I believe these guys need to be investigated and made examples of. If they are able to follow through and deliver product and or refund, then nothing will come of it. But they can't be allowed to slide if they don't. That includes Smog who is obviously part of this. Nobody should be getting screwed, and that includes the Banks. Theft is theft
i was actually talking to an owner of one of the larger online vape shops and he said they've been screwed too. They were asked for a large amount of money to be able to sell it first and now they haven't heard a thing from the company
f1r3b1rd
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Can you pm me the shop info please?
I gonna start putting together a case
One more thing about reddit posts. If he deletes his account, (which you can do on reddit) then all his posts he ever made under that account name will disappear. If you want those screenshots, I would do it now before he deletes or changes anything. That goes for CMT & returnity Ian too. Same thing with CMT's website. One click of a mouse and that site can disappear.
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I have all the screenshots including one before he edited the post about his smog ownership.
Either way, that whole incestuous business relationship is way to 'deliverance' for me. Had I known about that, I never would have bought in. I know it happens alot in other industries, but its different when one company is established for years.
So Jeff Smog said he paid CMT for the pre-orders, and CMT came out a couple days ago and said "he never paid us for the pre-orders". Now today, CMT is saying they refunded Jeff Smog for pre-orders. So basically Jeff Smog and Ian Returnity have effectively stolen your money with the help from CMT. CMT says "this happened less than 24 hours ago". Jeff Smog posted his "I'm broke and it's your fault" notice about 40 hours ago at least. (by the way, Jeff Smog's real name is Jeff Soltera)
Here's some of the pathetic CMT responses from legitimate questions:
--------------------------------------------
"When you did the refund, why did you not warn those of us who had ordered from him?"
The vendor had given us reason to believe that he would make prompt payments (refunds to the customers) throughout the process, and we gave the vendor every opportunity to do so. The refund had gone through less than 24 hours ago. As mentioned, this unfolded quickly.
"Not your responsibility, but wait... why is Smog still listed as one of your authorized vendors?"
In the midst of this turbulence, updating our authorized vendor list has not been top priority. We will get to it when we can.
"Your relationship with smog would have already been ruined at this point, so why leave us out to dry, when your employee /u/returnity was so involved with hyping the pre-orders through smog in the first place?"
Whistleblowing is not what we are here to do. It's unprofessional and something I consider to be a bane of this industry. Even if it sat well with us morally, that would be legal grounds for indictment against us should any vendor choose to pursue that avenue.
We are here to make products. The sole reason there was finally a response from the vendor at all was because we had repeatedly urged him to do in the past few days..... (even though they had repeatedly, over the last few days, said they hadn't talked to him in months)
---------------------------------------------------
So, it's unprofessional to whistleblow when your very own customer's are in the midst of being ripped off? WTF?. Which also means CMT knew the theft was happening before the customer did. I can't fucking believe what I'm reading.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cloudmaker/comments/3vzr1t/where_exactly_is_our_money/
Here's some of the pathetic CMT responses from legitimate questions:
--------------------------------------------
"When you did the refund, why did you not warn those of us who had ordered from him?"
The vendor had given us reason to believe that he would make prompt payments (refunds to the customers) throughout the process, and we gave the vendor every opportunity to do so. The refund had gone through less than 24 hours ago. As mentioned, this unfolded quickly.
"Not your responsibility, but wait... why is Smog still listed as one of your authorized vendors?"
In the midst of this turbulence, updating our authorized vendor list has not been top priority. We will get to it when we can.
"Your relationship with smog would have already been ruined at this point, so why leave us out to dry, when your employee /u/returnity was so involved with hyping the pre-orders through smog in the first place?"
Whistleblowing is not what we are here to do. It's unprofessional and something I consider to be a bane of this industry. Even if it sat well with us morally, that would be legal grounds for indictment against us should any vendor choose to pursue that avenue.
We are here to make products. The sole reason there was finally a response from the vendor at all was because we had repeatedly urged him to do in the past few days..... (even though they had repeatedly, over the last few days, said they hadn't talked to him in months)
---------------------------------------------------
So, it's unprofessional to whistleblow when your very own customer's are in the midst of being ripped off? WTF?. Which also means CMT knew the theft was happening before the customer did. I can't fucking believe what I'm reading.
https://www.reddit.com/r/cloudmaker/comments/3vzr1t/where_exactly_is_our_money/
That Jeremy is a Nutcase. Does the guy not read what he writes? It's quite possible Jeff Smog has something on them. Why would they refund him knowing full well he would not use it to refund the customers? I mean, the day before, Smog told everyone they would not get a refund, and that he was broke. Then CMT refunds him the money for the pre-orders. Doesn't make any sense. Maybe it's just another lie and never happened.
So basically what you are saying is that money was given back to SD who will or has filed bankruptcy and won't be paying it back to customers so it releases CMT from liability and paying back customers. That's rather convenient.
The plot thickens. I can't believe these guys don't know better than to post this stuff on a public forum (unless it's calculated to release them from liability as mentioned above). I don't see how after this that even their most ardent supporters could defend them. Honestly I'm at loss. You could't make this stuff up, no one would believe it.
At this point I have to believe it's "The vocal minority", either that or family members
. Hopefully that brings a smile to those who are caught up in this tangled web. I'm certainly not making light of your situation!Cheers,
Steve
f1r3b1rd
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Oh, i know that Steve- you're damn good people.
Robert has had my back with all of it, also. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't even know what the hell was going on, since I never go on reddit. I stick to here and another forum that a friend of mine owns.
I can't help but find a bit of comedy to the whole thing though. I've often wondered what it would be like to be my own PI
Robert has had my back with all of it, also. If it weren't for him, I wouldn't even know what the hell was going on, since I never go on reddit. I stick to here and another forum that a friend of mine owns.
I can't help but find a bit of comedy to the whole thing though. I've often wondered what it would be like to be my own PI
ok folks
look at this reasonably
- anyone who ordered form smog has a right to be pissed.
unless you can prove collusion - which make no sense why CMT would aid Smog in fucking people over if they are legitimately trying to sell products - CMT is doing the right thing
So lets assume for a moment that CMT is trying to be a real business and sell a product.
people paid Smog for a rpoduct
Smog paid CMT for a product
If you ordered from smog you are a smog customer not a cmt customer
SO if Smog cancels the order form CMT then CMT should refund the money - they cant determine which customers of smog were paid for .
Legally they have to return smog's money or deliver the product.
Now even if smog hasnt technically canceled the order,, CMT has no way knowing which smog order's tehy were paid for
SMOG is their customer
any one who ordered through smog is a smog customer
AT this point if you were cmt and felt SMOG was not going to fill orders to its customers if you ship the product that SMOG paid for to SMOG would you want to ship it to them?
If you answer no then you have to refund smog since smog is your customer
I understand people being pissed
I understand due to that one post people feel that one person at CMT owns part of SMOG
HAS ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO PROVE THAT
And its not unethical for a manufacturer to own a distributing company either.
Its done in every industry and usually to the benefit of the stores who buy their products
I do feel some of the anger is missed placed.
ASSUMING CMT is legitimately trying to sell product are are just facing production issues
Then so far their actions are proper
SMOG is the bad guy here
NOW if someone can prove collusion or CMT doesnt not deliver a product ever
they are the bad guy as well
look at this reasonably
- anyone who ordered form smog has a right to be pissed.
unless you can prove collusion - which make no sense why CMT would aid Smog in fucking people over if they are legitimately trying to sell products - CMT is doing the right thing
So lets assume for a moment that CMT is trying to be a real business and sell a product.
people paid Smog for a rpoduct
Smog paid CMT for a product
If you ordered from smog you are a smog customer not a cmt customer
SO if Smog cancels the order form CMT then CMT should refund the money - they cant determine which customers of smog were paid for .
Legally they have to return smog's money or deliver the product.
Now even if smog hasnt technically canceled the order,, CMT has no way knowing which smog order's tehy were paid for
SMOG is their customer
any one who ordered through smog is a smog customer
AT this point if you were cmt and felt SMOG was not going to fill orders to its customers if you ship the product that SMOG paid for to SMOG would you want to ship it to them?
If you answer no then you have to refund smog since smog is your customer
I understand people being pissed
I understand due to that one post people feel that one person at CMT owns part of SMOG
HAS ANYONE BEEN ABLE TO PROVE THAT
And its not unethical for a manufacturer to own a distributing company either.
Its done in every industry and usually to the benefit of the stores who buy their products
I do feel some of the anger is missed placed.
ASSUMING CMT is legitimately trying to sell product are are just facing production issues
Then so far their actions are proper
SMOG is the bad guy here
NOW if someone can prove collusion or CMT doesnt not deliver a product ever
they are the bad guy as well
f1r3b1rd
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I've been careful to say several times that I can't prove malfeasance; however everything I have said has been true, the links are posted to the original information.
The "appearance of impropriety" is certainly there. But short of a warrant the records are not available to prove.
What I have is one person who works for company A stating that he has a large share of ownership(49%) in company B.
Then company B taking money from customers to pay for products from company A but not giving the money to company A.
Finally company B gave company A funds as a down payment-equivalent to 35 unit
Company B requested that money refunded from Company A, like you said they had to refund it legally since product has yet to be produced.
Yet, still, this person has hands in both cookie jars.
Is it proof? No
Does it give the appearance of impropriety? Yup.
Am i convinced? No
Have I asked questions? Yup
Have I gotten answers? Nope.
Have I gotten my money back? Nope
Being that I have lost or donated money. I think I have a vested interest in digging as deep as i legally can, as well as well as, a responsibility to my brothers and sisters in vaping to pass along as much information as I can, so that they can proceed in whatever way benefits them best. I am certainly thankful for the person who passed it to me.
Again
Do I have proof? NO
THE FACTS ARE WHAT THEY ARE, THE LINKS TO THE INFORMATION FROM THE HORSES MOUTH ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD.
As proof of the employees ownership in SMOG, he said he was (3months ago) and retracted that when the shit hit the fan(Dec 8th). (link on page1) that tells me either he is a liar when convenient, or covering his ass. But I don't have proof outside of what he said. However, he either lied then or is lying now. If he lied then why? What was convincing someone to do? It is also said that he was also the one pushing people to buy through smog. Why?
Yet another question that was asked by several people.
Edit::: I obviously hope all of the above is false and if so I prefer my crow fried with menuire sauce.
The "appearance of impropriety" is certainly there. But short of a warrant the records are not available to prove.
What I have is one person who works for company A stating that he has a large share of ownership(49%) in company B.
Then company B taking money from customers to pay for products from company A but not giving the money to company A.
Finally company B gave company A funds as a down payment-equivalent to 35 unit
Company B requested that money refunded from Company A, like you said they had to refund it legally since product has yet to be produced.
Yet, still, this person has hands in both cookie jars.
Is it proof? No
Does it give the appearance of impropriety? Yup.
Am i convinced? No
Have I asked questions? Yup
Have I gotten answers? Nope.
Have I gotten my money back? Nope
Being that I have lost or donated money. I think I have a vested interest in digging as deep as i legally can, as well as well as, a responsibility to my brothers and sisters in vaping to pass along as much information as I can, so that they can proceed in whatever way benefits them best. I am certainly thankful for the person who passed it to me.
Again
Do I have proof? NO
THE FACTS ARE WHAT THEY ARE, THE LINKS TO THE INFORMATION FROM THE HORSES MOUTH ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE THREAD.
As proof of the employees ownership in SMOG, he said he was (3months ago) and retracted that when the shit hit the fan(Dec 8th). (link on page1) that tells me either he is a liar when convenient, or covering his ass. But I don't have proof outside of what he said. However, he either lied then or is lying now. If he lied then why? What was convincing someone to do? It is also said that he was also the one pushing people to buy through smog. Why?
Yet another question that was asked by several people.
Edit::: I obviously hope all of the above is false and if so I prefer my crow fried with menuire sauce.
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It's appreciated. I'm watching this very closely.
BadLuckAndTrouble
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Im really hoping CMT produces units, if only for the sake of everyone that is still waiting, but also in a timely manner because the pushbacks are becoming a little ridiculous without proper explanation as to why. Im still a fan of the design and engineering that went into this project and I wanted whole heartedly for this to take off, and become the company that we as a community need for the furtherment of our hobby in an economical, logical, and user friendly way.
That said.
They shouldnt have even taken pre-orders at as early of a stage in development as they did.
I feel like they used that money to fund a business they could not get substantial enough frontage for. Theyve run into unforeseen problems, and are now left with their thumb up their ass and wondering how to fix the shit storm that they have created.
I also feel like they never lost contact with jeff throughout this ordeal, just protecting him and their own investments the only way they could figure out how to, by fabricating a way out, together.
ALL of this is pure conjecture, but from all of the questions that have been answered, and more importantly the ones that have been asked repeatedly and never answered, this is how I feel the situation has gotten to the point that it has.
I sincerly hope all ends well, but its starting to look like we've been led down the rabbit hole..
BLT
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I would still purchase one.. but not until they are actually "on the shelf"
That said.
They shouldnt have even taken pre-orders at as early of a stage in development as they did.
I feel like they used that money to fund a business they could not get substantial enough frontage for. Theyve run into unforeseen problems, and are now left with their thumb up their ass and wondering how to fix the shit storm that they have created.
I also feel like they never lost contact with jeff throughout this ordeal, just protecting him and their own investments the only way they could figure out how to, by fabricating a way out, together.
ALL of this is pure conjecture, but from all of the questions that have been answered, and more importantly the ones that have been asked repeatedly and never answered, this is how I feel the situation has gotten to the point that it has.
I sincerly hope all ends well, but its starting to look like we've been led down the rabbit hole..
BLT
ETA*
I would still purchase one.. but not until they are actually "on the shelf"
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f1r3b1rd
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BadLuckAndTrouble
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Hmm.. not sure about how to feel about the answer to that chapterbook of a comment.
Though he says they are very close to shipping, again lol.
Though he says they are very close to shipping, again lol.
IMO, CMT is doing all they can do, in order to get their product shipped ASAP. Yes, there were major set backs!
Re. Smog, that's a different story. It is possible, that a person at CMT, was partnered with Smog, and admitted to it. However, he might have pulled out of the partnership, due to Smog's business practice (or the lack of). If Smog doesn't hold up to their contract, it has nothing to do with CMT not holding up to theirs. Therefore, if Smog doesn't live up to their contract, it's Smogs responsibility, not CMT's. To be honest, seeing an offer for a Whiteout DNA for $96 on Smog, when every other vendor is way above that, is suspicious enough for me. Not everything that glimmers is Gold!
That's just my $0.02.
Re. Smog, that's a different story. It is possible, that a person at CMT, was partnered with Smog, and admitted to it. However, he might have pulled out of the partnership, due to Smog's business practice (or the lack of). If Smog doesn't hold up to their contract, it has nothing to do with CMT not holding up to theirs. Therefore, if Smog doesn't live up to their contract, it's Smogs responsibility, not CMT's. To be honest, seeing an offer for a Whiteout DNA for $96 on Smog, when every other vendor is way above that, is suspicious enough for me. Not everything that glimmers is Gold!
That's just my $0.02.
BadLuckAndTrouble
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Looks like CMT is actually being responsive and trying to appease buyers, their attitude leaves much to be desired still.
I agree regarding their attitude. I posted a question in one of their blogs (regarding shipping schedule) on CMT's website, 'cause I'm one of the guys pre-ordering at CMT after Sep. 26th. Checking back on it, my question was removed. I assume, it was due to mentioning my concerns about the upcoming FDA regulations. BTW, I still haven't received an answer yet!
I'm not saying it won't be great or there will be more delays. My crystal ball is broken so I don't predict the future. However I am saying, their attitude is very off putting. Considering they have had some peoples money for 5 months or so, the vendor they themselves steered people to went belly up, one of their employees is rumored to be 49% owner of said company. Then to act like they are the injured party is just mind boggling.
I really like the concept but after seeing the way they seem to take very little if any responsibility for what has become a cluster frig, makes me wonder what their attitude will be if one gets a bad unit? Will they be courteous to the customer or just say for whatever reason it's the customers fault . They really are doing themselves no favors! I'm honestly more alarmed with their attitude then the delays they have had. Not sure that's the kind of company I would want to do business with, no matter how good the product turns out.
Cheers,
Steve
Edit I'm in no way telling people what they should do, think, or feel. You have every right to be excited or whatever you are feeling. The above is just my personal opinion on the matter.
I really like the concept but after seeing the way they seem to take very little if any responsibility for what has become a cluster frig, makes me wonder what their attitude will be if one gets a bad unit? Will they be courteous to the customer or just say for whatever reason it's the customers fault . They really are doing themselves no favors! I'm honestly more alarmed with their attitude then the delays they have had. Not sure that's the kind of company I would want to do business with, no matter how good the product turns out.
Cheers,
Steve
Edit I'm in no way telling people what they should do, think, or feel. You have every right to be excited or whatever you are feeling. The above is just my personal opinion on the matter.
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IMO, innocent, until proven guilty! Isn't that the law to begin with? Or did I miss something?
I didn't say they were guilty of anything other than having a off putting attitude and I also said it was just my opinion. Were all allowed to have them.
I didn't mean it that way either. I was just trying to express, that we have to be patient, and see how things develop, and go from there, instead of all this "hearing through the grapevine" mentality.
No, that only applies to a court of law where liberty and property are at stake. People are most certainly allowed to form opinions and draw conclusions based on available information. And any company that does business with the public is most certainly subject to public opinions. At some point, when I see something with feathers quacking and wadling I can go ahead and call it a duck without going to the courts for a ruling. As a consumer, I am definitely allowed to determine who is worthy of my business and who isn't. And I as a citizen, I am afforded the right to take a dispute before a court to seek damages. Or did I miss something?
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I am not a court and not throwing them in jail, I am putting facts together so that I can forward information to the proper authorities and let them sort it out. they said another week on the 9th. That puts it at the 16th; Therefore on the 17th, I will forward all the information I find.
Paid in July for a deadline that was August, I've been patient. I'm done being told I'm a piece of shit for for not tip-toeing through the tulips.
The concept is centuries old.
I give them money, they give me an item we agreed on in an agreed upon time span.
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Smog was selling whiteout dna pre-orders for $199 when I looked at them, where from the best that I can gather, he took aprox 350 to 400 orders. The $96 mod was the Reuleaux dna200 he was selling pre-orders during the black friday sales scam.
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I though that was the one. Don't have a screenshot so I didn't want to misspeak.
The few, the proud, the brave...
https://cloudmakertech.com/production-update-26/
according to this, the factory isnt even shipping to the warehouse until the 14th
and this is only enough to cover the 1st batch of pre orders
the second batch of preorders wont be shipping until next year
according to this, the factory isnt even shipping to the warehouse until the 14th
and this is only enough to cover the 1st batch of pre orders
the second batch of preorders wont be shipping until next year
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I find it extremely funny they post a picture of a single mod in a completely empty room lol.
Still a gorgeous device IMO.. wish this endeavor would have been smoother.
Still a gorgeous device IMO.. wish this endeavor would have been smoother.
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But you have to look at their definition of first batch.
The first batch is anyone who ordered from their website up until 9/26
The rest are supposed to happen first or second week of January
-which based on current history ????
-at first deadline was August
-then September
-then November
-then 12-4 till 12-9
-now 12-14
-I'm giving it until, the 16th for actual movement and if nothin then the 17th i will be making contacts.